2008.06.24 13:00 - Less is More

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    Genesis was the guardian that afternoon. She sent me the chat log, with her comments.

    Dream Interpretation

    Fael Illyar: Hi Gen
    Adams Rubble: Hi Gen
    Fael Illyar: So, another breakthrough?
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi all!
    Adams Rubble: Yes, self in the way
    genesis Zhangsun: whats the breakthrough?
    Adams Rubble: I don;t know that I want to make myself the topic of conversation again :)
    Adams Rubble: I have written it out in my blog
    Fael Illyar: Do we have another?
    Adams Rubble: I had a dream yesterday
    Adams Rubble: interpreted it on the blog today
    Adams Rubble: Mainly I’ve discovered that my “self” has been in the way
    Adams Rubble: Thus me not being so anxious to talk about it all again :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes i am always tripping over my “self”
    Faenik: why not?
    Adams Rubble: :) faenik
    Fael Illyar: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: but its liberating in a way to figure it out even if I can’t stop doing it…well at least yet
    genesis Zhangsun: maybe one day I will trip less
    Adams Rubble: yes, but I also found it a bit painful
    genesis Zhangsun: or fall more gracefully
    Adams Rubble: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Fael Illyar: painful, how?
    Adams Rubble: first, writing out all the interpretation on the blog
    Adams Rubble: and realizing what had been happening along the way
    Adams Rubble: and discovering other things about myself that I didn;t talk about, or won’t or can’t
    Adams Rubble: just going into the depths
    Adams Rubble: of my “self”
    Adams Rubble: However,
    Adams Rubble: one thing I found very interesting
    Adams Rubble: is that my sub-conscious was warning me about my self
    Adams Rubble: I would have thought the sub-conscious was the self
    genesis Zhangsun: and now what is the sub-conscious to u?
    Adams Rubble: I haven’t thought that out yet Gen
    Adams Rubble: This is all pretty new
    Adams Rubble: but good question
    genesis Zhangsun: does it have a voice?
    Adams Rubble: Yes, it provided my dream
    Fael Illyar: I think it’s mistake to expect your mind to be a cohesive entity :)
    Adams Rubble: actually the “self” is the selfish
    Adams Rubble: the desire aprt
    Adams Rubble: part
    genesis Zhangsun: and the subconscious is it selfless?
    Adams Rubble: I doubt it
    Adams Rubble: what do you think?
    genesis Zhangsun: maybe I should read about the dream?

    I went on to Adams’s blog Rubble Born Thoughts and read about Adams’s dream and her interpretation

    Adams Rubble: At least it is very interesting
    Fael Illyar: what I was trying to say is that you can’t divide it into parts properly but neither is it a single thing either.
    Fael Illyar: that holds for subconscious and the whole mind
    Adams Rubble: My experience would indicate that fael
    Fael Illyar: Yes, mine too, that’s why I said that :)
    Fael Illyar: I’ve often felt like I’m a detached observer observing myself … although at the same time also myself.
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: hard to describe
    Adams Rubble: I understand that
    Adams Rubble: I have experienced that yes
    Adams Rubble: Did you see my interpretation Fael?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I just read it.
    Fael Illyar: It fits very well.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Adams Rubble: What is Faenik saying in Japanese?
    Fael Illyar: something to the effect of “Ah, I see”
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: or maybe “Ah, now I see”
    Adams Rubble: Good for you Faenik
    Adams Rubble: Does the green mean that it is a script?
    Fael Illyar: yes, green means it’s a script

    I finished reading about Adams’s dream made me feel tide up in knots

    genesis Zhangsun: I just read your dream
    genesis Zhangsun: sounds like turmoil
    Adams Rubble: I think when we remember what our subconscious is telling us it often indicates some turmoil
    Adams Rubble: at least in my expereince
    Adams Rubble: for me
    genesis Zhangsun: a war inside
    Fael Illyar: Yes, in mine too.
    Adams Rubble: Not quite a war Gen
    Adams Rubble: just needing to understand that my “self” was in the way
    Adams Rubble: Did you see my interpretation today?
    genesis Zhangsun: hmmm I will look again
    Adams Rubble: It can wait–I will have to be going pretty soon
    Adams Rubble: But my “self” was in danger of
    Adams Rubble: interfering with what I could learn from the group
    Fael Illyar: I’ve got one thing you might want to think about. The things you’re not willing to talk about. Is the unwillingness because you don’t want to think about them or just not have others know about them?
    Adams Rubble: they are very presonal, Fael
    Adams Rubble: personal
    Fael Illyar: That was not a question. Just something I think is worth answering, if just for yourself.
    Adams Rubble: This is a public blog and I do lay out many things about myself
    Adams Rubble: These things that I left out don;t have anything to do with my growth pertaining to PaB
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adams Rubble: I think they are irrelevant
    Adams Rubble: someday I may wish to reveal some of them
    Adams Rubble: but not now
    Adams Rubble: but I am not ignoring them, no :)
    Fael Illyar: Ok, that’s what I wanted to know :)
    Adams Rubble: thanks Fael :)
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: Unfortunately I need to go very soon and I think gen is still reading
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: I’ll wait as long as I can and then go suddenly :)
    Adams Rubble: brb

    I finished reading Adams’s interpretation which was very insightful and I completely concurred with.

    genesis Zhangsun: bye adams
    genesis Zhangsun: interesting dream
    genesis Zhangsun: so fael do you usually come to the 1pm meetings?
    Fael Illyar: I often do
    Adams Rubble: still here - any questions Gen?
    genesis Zhangsun: i think its interesting this part about the “magic” which the PaB members offer
    genesis Zhangsun: and the dynamics between the magicians
    genesis Zhangsun: and your search for your role in these dynamics
    genesis Zhangsun: and your desire to know to learn more
    Faenik: indeed?
    genesis Zhangsun: and your conflict in ways of knowing
    genesis Zhangsun: the way in which the self aids or presents in obstacle in knowing
    genesis Zhangsun: *an obstacle
    Adams Rubble: yes that is the key point :)
    Adams Rubble: and that is the kind of breakthrough I was mentioning to Fael when you came in
    genesis Zhangsun: I find myself often tripping on myself in these PaB sessions and for some reason it becomes so glaring to me here in SL then it is in RL
    genesis Zhangsun: clearer to myself when my “self” is getting in the way
    Faenik: why not?
    Adams Rubble: that is an intersting point Gen
    Fael Illyar: There is less to keep your mind focused on others so you have more time to focus on yourself.
    Adams Rubble: hmmm
    Adams Rubble: I must go now. I will read the log. Bye to both of you and thanks for your comments :)
    Fael Illyar: Hope you’re not losing the track of time :)
    Adams Rubble: I am off :)
    genesis Zhangsun: by Adams

    Adams leaves us and it is just me and Fael and we turned to comparing RL and SL and “self” identification

    Fael Illyar: Anyway, as I was saying, there are less things to divert your attention away from yourself here as compared to RL conversation.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes thats true or perhaps more space
    genesis Zhangsun: more space to experience more subtle emotions
    genesis Zhangsun: subtle states of awareness
    genesis Zhangsun: then when you are actually in conversation being observed by the other person engaged with the other person completely
    genesis Zhangsun: like everything is slowed down a bit
    genesis Zhangsun: by the text
    Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, more time to think too
    genesis Zhangsun: yes more time to think and less things to judge
    genesis Zhangsun: less information
    genesis Zhangsun: provided visually
    Fael Illyar: less is more :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes perhaps because that can be very distracting
    genesis Zhangsun: that is the interesting thing about SL
    genesis Zhangsun: you know nothing about what the other person really looks like, where they live, what language they speak
    genesis Zhangsun: what they do for a living
    genesis Zhangsun: all of these things which we usually use to judge
    genesis Zhangsun: which are distracting often
    genesis Zhangsun: to meeting the true other
    Fael Illyar: well, the language some speaks usually is known I’d think :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes well maybe not
    genesis Zhangsun: i wouldn’t have guessed you were Finnish ;)
    genesis Zhangsun: your english is very good
    Fael Illyar: Well, yes, some people, like me, can hide that they’re not native English speakers, if they want to :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes even in RL
    Fael Illyar: It’s pretty easily guessable from my profile where I’m from though :)
    Fael Illyar: Although I haven’t written it there directly. Not really relevant information :)
    genesis Zhangsun: well I guess my point is here I am not distracted by it
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps its somewhere in the background
    genesis Zhangsun: but we don’t really need to focus on it
    genesis Zhangsun: In RL I probably would feel obligated to engage in conversation about Finland
    genesis Zhangsun: ask you Oh wow where do you live! Oh when did you learn English!
    genesis Zhangsun: these sorts of things
    genesis Zhangsun: here we are just sort of being
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    genesis Zhangsun: because being Finnish doesn’t necessarily define who you are
    genesis Zhangsun: and here I remember this
    Fael Illyar: Yes, the normal, questions … I keep hoping people don’t ask me those :)
    Fael Illyar: But yes, being Finnish doesn’t define who I am … although, I’m not exactly sure what does :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes me neither but I also prefer that others don’d define my identity for me
    genesis Zhangsun: before they know me at least ;)
    genesis Zhangsun: you know what i mean?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think I do :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I am just amazed by the number of judgments people make in everyday life about others
    genesis Zhangsun: which have no foundation in reality often
    genesis Zhangsun: for example in RL I look Japanese
    genesis Zhangsun: but I was raised in the States
    genesis Zhangsun: so I don’t really consider myself Japanese
    genesis Zhangsun: but others have decided that I am Japanese
    genesis Zhangsun: as a starting point for interaction
    genesis Zhangsun: this is funny to me!
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think I can see that :)
    genesis Zhangsun: identities are complicated and getting even more so and so I think it is almost evolution
    genesis Zhangsun: necessary for survival not to judge
    genesis Zhangsun: which is very counter intuitive in some wyas
    Fael Illyar: more a revolution :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes perhaps that for some
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: how do you feel being Finnish defines who you are?
    Fael Illyar: it doesn’t
    genesis Zhangsun: not at all?
    Fael Illyar: I’m not sure if I’d say not at all but I’m not aware of any.
    Fael Illyar: not at all sounds impossible :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes…it has been interesting in my experience deconstructing how culture has affected the construction of my identity
    genesis Zhangsun: to find out ways in which my “culture” gets in the way
    Faenik: why not?
    genesis Zhangsun: the same way as understanding how the “self” gets in the way
    Fael Illyar: I somehow ended up abandoning all parts of identity I felt came from “outside” some years back.
    Fael Illyar: probably more than ten years ago
    Faenik: ah :)
    genesis Zhangsun: but did you have to go through a process of realizing what you were leaving behind?
    genesis Zhangsun: were you conscious of what you left behind?
    Fael Illyar: I think so, although I no longer remember what it was.

    I was astounded!

    genesis Zhangsun: that is profound
    genesis Zhangsun: fascinating!
    Fael Illyar: or how much there was actually :)
    genesis Zhangsun: you just left it all behind and what was left?
    genesis Zhangsun: was there anything leftover?
    genesis Zhangsun: or just being?
    Fael Illyar: I didn’t leave it all at once, I don’t think.
    genesis Zhangsun: may I ask you how you did it?
    genesis Zhangsun: were there steps?
    Fael Illyar: My memories of it are very hazy
    Fael Illyar: I’m not sure why I started but I got the idea somehow that I shouldn’t have my identity constructed by others.
    Faenik loves wells!
    genesis Zhangsun: yes but I wonder if it is possible
    genesis Zhangsun: for me anyway
    Fael Illyar: Well, considering there isn’t much to say about my identity now, I did leave much behind.
    Fael Illyar: I’d say it’s probably not possible fast and probably requires a change in your core values somehow.
    Faenik: ah :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes I just find it an incredible process
    genesis Zhangsun: of self realization
    genesis Zhangsun: for me I have to locate what it is I am leaving behind before leaving it behind
    genesis Zhangsun: it is a sort of logical analytical process for me
    Fael Illyar: I think I did something like that
    genesis Zhangsun: wonderful though that you can talk about it in so much hindsight
    Fael Illyar: I feel I remember very little about it
    genesis Zhangsun: yes exactly wonderful to come to a point where all of that was so long ago
    genesis Zhangsun: to have so much history where you are acting without all those constructs controlling you
    Fael Illyar: I think I started doing it at some point when I had lost whatever I had based myself on.

    Building a house on sand…

    Fael Illyar: I didn’t want to base myself on sand again :)
    genesis Zhangsun: what do you base yourself on now?
    Fael Illyar: That’s a good question :)
    genesis Zhangsun: is it harder to dissolve than sand?
    genesis Zhangsun: a diamond?
    genesis Zhangsun: ;)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: It could be I’ve ended up basing myself on that I try to see how things really are.
    Fael Illyar: notice, not on seeing things as they really are. But on pursuing that
    genesis Zhangsun: I like the sand metaphor though
    Fael Illyar: well, it’s from the bible actually :P
    Fael Illyar: there is a story in there about building your house on sand
    genesis Zhangsun: was it from the house’s perspective?
    genesis Zhangsun: ;)
    Fael Illyar: nope
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: but I don’t think that’d make much of a difference :)
    genesis Zhangsun: oh no it was a joke didn’t work well
    Fael Illyar: It did make laugh, actually.
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess I just read what you said about being “based” on sand as being made of sand
    genesis Zhangsun: hence was it from the house’s perspective
    genesis Zhangsun: though I’m glad it made u laugh anyway
    Fael Illyar: well, the story’s point was that no matter how good a house you build on sand, it’s useless when the sand eventually swallows it.
    genesis Zhangsun: ah yes that is a good point
    genesis Zhangsun: and fitting to the point you were making
    genesis Zhangsun: Fael it has been nice talking to you
    genesis Zhangsun: I must go now
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later :)
    genesis Zhangsun: bye

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