2008.06.28 07:00 - Dreams and Nightmares

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    Fael provided the following log, with her comments. The title is also hers.

    This evening, Maxine was the first one to arrive. Gambhira and Pia arrived soon after.

    Fael Illyar: Hello Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
    Maxine Walden: Faenik looks comfortable this morning
    Faenik meaows happily.
    Fael Illyar: Hello Gambhira :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pia :)
    Pia Iger: Hi, Fael, coming
    Gambhira Skytower: hi Fael
    Maxine Walden: Hi, Pia, and Gambhira
    Pia Iger: good morning, everyone.
    Gambhira Skytower: cute puff ball
    Faenik meows happily at being noticed.
    Pia Iger: Gam , do you still go to Zazen?
    Faenik: indeed?
    Gambhira Skytower: yes
    Pia Iger: I want to keep going. I like their notecards.
    Gambhira Skytower: i haven’t read all of them cuz they are so long
    Pia Iger: true:)
    Fael Illyar: It’s a lot of work to read them all :)
    Pia Iger: What was the topic of newest notecard?
    Gambhira Skytower: meditation is a noun
    Pia Iger: Yes, Fael. but I read a few and very inspring.
    Pia Iger: inspiring.
    Pia Iger: Maxine, I gave you last time a card of “take refuge”
    Maxine Walden: yes, I recall and thank you again
    Maxine Walden: so nice to have things at hand to inspire us
    Maxine Walden: Pia, you asked several days ago about dreams, is that still a topic of interest?
    Pia Iger: of cause.
    Pia Iger: Do you have anything to share?

    Moon arrived, just in time to join the conversation about dreams that was just beginning.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
    Moon Fargis: hello everyone :)
    Gambhira Skytower: hi Moon
    Maxine Walden: I have found it useful to think about dreams as messengers from that region of our experience we cannot be directly aware of
    Maxine Walden: hi, Moon,
    Moon Fargis: ah a dream topic
    Maxine Walden: and that dreams can continue the internal discourse, inner thoughts we may be having, questions we may be asking ourselves
    Pia Iger: I just woke up from an interesting dream. but I forgot now.
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Moon Fargis: maxime: belive me or not but you can listen to your dreams while you are awake
    Maxine Walden: dreams can seem to fall over the horizen of memory, can’t they, often frustrating
    Gambhira Skytower: last night i found myself in a dream i didn’t enjoy and i realized I was dreaming and became afraid i wouldn’t wake up
    Fael Illyar: Moon, while meditating?
    Maxine Walden: yes, actually I believe we are always dreaming, awake or asleep,
    Pia Iger: daydream?
    Moon Fargis: yes.. remember the confuse thoughts layers i talk about?
    Moon Fargis: maxime: our brain has alot of different layers of toughts
    Maxine Walden: and it is something to feel trapped in a dream or nitemare, Gambhia
    Moon Fargis: loud ones and verry quiet confuse ones

    Dulcinea arrives.

    Moon Fargis: hi dulci
    Dulcinea Denimore: hi
    Pia Iger: I had similar to Gamb
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Maxine Walden: I agree, Moon, many simultaneous levels of experience, perhaps voices
    Maxine Walden: care to talk about that experience, Pia?
    Pia Iger: yes, it happend quite often
    Moon Fargis: maxine: yes you can listen to these quiet confuse thoughts when you settle doe loud ones down

    At this point I received IM from Dulcinea Denimore asking “what’s this discussion about?”. I decided to do the introduction through chat though. At the same time, Pia is describing her nightmare.

    Pia Iger: usually in my dream, I saw a man standing by my bed,
    Pia Iger: he want to strangle me.
    Fael Illyar: Hi dulcinea, this a Play as Being meeting.
    Fael Illyar: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
    Pia Iger: I realize I was dreaming and want to wake up
    Pia Iger: but I could not, I was stuck in dream, in panic
    Fael Illyar: we do these 9-second explorations and these meetings are for discussing them but we often go wildly offtopic :)
    Maxine Walden: that can feel terrifying, trapped in such a dream, as if the dream is a kind of strangler
    Dulcinea Denimore: oh, cool
    Moon Fargis: pia: you have to talk to pema, he did experiments and practise with dreamcontroll
    Moon Fargis: he can give you some hints
    Pia Iger: You guys are good, too
    Fael Illyar: Also, these meetings are blogged, do you mind your name appearing in there?
    Pia Iger: different ppl have different angles.
    Maxine Walden: Pia, is it possible to look upon that dream right now as a kind of messenger of something?
    Maxine Walden: in the safety of the daytime the dream may offer some message
    Pia Iger: no idea what the message can be.
    Moon Fargis: hmm pia… when you realise that it is a dreamm..then you also try to stand up in your dream next time
    Moon Fargis: and hug the person
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Pia Iger: my god!
    Fael Illyar: Pia, he wanted to strangle you but did he ever do that?

    This detail was missing from Pia’s explanation and I felt it’s important somehow.

    Pia Iger: no.
    Dulcinea Denimore: haha.. thats a frightening thought
    Moon Fargis: atleast its your dream
    Maxine Walden: a terrifying thought which may say don’t come closer, don’t think about me, don;’t try to embrace me…the terror may keep us away from thinking about something or letting something just come to mind;
    Dulcinea Denimore nods
    Pia Iger: sound right. Maxine.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Pia Iger: actually I never dare to look at the man’face,
    Maxine Walden: these may be times not to force a thought, but just observe what drifts in mind…something like that
    Maxine Walden: inner terrors, in my experience, may be like thugs, not wanting to be unmasked
    Dulcinea Denimore: hmmm
    Moon Fargis: well thats the onl way to get rid of them.. accept them..
    Moon Fargis: “hug the man”
    Maxine Walden: or dare to look at his face perhaps
    Maxine Walden: might not be as frightening if we can look
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it often works for dispelling those is to react to them in a completely unexpected way.
    Gambhira Skytower: or figure out a way to wake yourself up, i did
    Maxine Walden: Gambhira, how did you wake yourself up?
    Fael Illyar: Tends to work in RL too. If someone is mad at you, if you react in a completely unexpected way, they might forget being angry.
    Gambhira Skytower: i concentrate on opening my eyes very strongly i think, and I may repeat to myself , “wakeup!”
    Pia Iger: Fael, I did notice that happen in RL.
    Maxine Walden: very interesting, and you can reach into the dreaming state and bring yourself out of it
    Dulcinea Denimore: but like a real situation with an attacker, i think the primary action i would face is to be frozen with fear… I find the same problem with my RL challengees.
    Gambhira Skytower: but sometimes it just “wakes you up” into another different dream!!
    Pia Iger: more pleasant dream, hopefully.
    Fael Illyar: Sometime after I’d been playing around with lucid dreams for a bit, during one nightmare I suddenly realized it’s a dream and just started concentrating on changing things so that it’s no longer scary. Very minimal changes.

    I describe how I’ve dealt with nightmares myself.

    Gambhira Skytower: Also, i think i may have tried to imagine the room i was sleeping in to help wake up
    Fael Illyar: After that, I can’t recall a single nightmare anymore.
    Gambhira Skytower: So it worked Fael?
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Fael Illyar: well, mostly just realizing that it’s my dream, I decide what happens :P
    Pia Iger: cool.
    Gambhira Skytower: but how do you realize that you are dreaming?
    Maxine Walden: bringing some control into the dream dispells the terror perhaps, makes you the one in control, not the figure or circumstances of the dream
    Fael Illyar: Well, just get a habit of thinking sometimes how would you know if you’re dreaming or not.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: if you think that sometimes while awake, you will also when you’re dreaming
    Fael Illyar: There are several situations that automatically make me check if I’m dreaming or not
    Fael Illyar: it’s usually very obvious if I’m dreaming :)
    Fael Illyar: strangely, I’m very certain of this, even though I can’t recall doing it much
    Maxine Walden: In my experience, not everyone has such continuity between their waking and dreaming selves as you describe, Fael, that is a wonderful ability you have
    Maxine Walden: and maybe one that we can all develop
    Fael Illyar: I don’t think the skill is limited to just dreaming.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: might help in thinking about scary things even while awake
    Fael Illyar: helps you realize that things you think about can only affect you if you let them.
    Maxine Walden: addressing the scary thoughts/things as that, thoughts rather than truly threatening things
    Fael Illyar: Yes
    Maxine Walden: I find that helpful as well, realizing that the fear or anxiety may be triggered as a warning, not a true threat
    Fael Illyar: it might also be a completely imaginary threat it warns about
    Maxine Walden: right, or something that may have been threatening to a younger more vulnerable self
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that too
    Maxine Walden: but not need to be a current threat/dread
    Maxine Walden: seems that our inner alarm system, probably a legacy of our jungle ancestors, has difficulty discerning between past and present; that is where our thoughtful minds may come in
    Maxine Walden: to help dispell old fears from current concerns
    Moon Fargis: the playfull mind
    Pia Iger: pls say more, Moon
    Faenik: indeed?
    Moon Fargis: well i also could say the babbling mind :)
    Moon Fargis: dreams are mostly bablish nonsense even when they are scary, i wouldnt interprete too much in them exept there is a dream that continues…but mostly ou mind just play while we dream
    Pia Iger: The dream I mentioned happened repeatly.

    Pia relates another recurring dream too.

    Pia Iger: another one I just recalled is
    Pia Iger: that I can’t not catch plane
    Moon Fargis: catch a plane?
    Maxine Walden: can’t quite get to it, to reach it?
    Pia Iger: Yes. I only have 10 min to get to airport, either because I can’t find my passport at last min, or
    Pia Iger: I have to do some damn errands before I can go to airport.
    Moon Fargis: meh!
    Pia Iger: so constantly I am constantly in the urgent state of mind, afraid of missing the plane.
    Maxine Walden: something goes missing at the last moment or interrupts your connection to the plane
    Pia Iger: although I never found out if I miss or not
    Pia Iger: yes. Maxine. many things made it impossible for me to get airport in time.

    SLisms :)

    Moon Fargis: pia.. next time.. press the fly button :)
    Moon Fargis: and fly there
    Pia Iger: hahaa
    Pia Iger: Why I did not think of that??
    Fael Illyar: or use a dream landmark :P
    Maxine Walden: perhaps one way to think about that is the anxiety that at the last minute something will interfere with the goal; in my experience, anxiety itself can make us lose touch with the goal, seem to cut us off from all we feel we need
    Maxine Walden: to reach the goal
    Moon Fargis: ohh im glad buddhism is a goalless goal :)
    Pia Iger: it occurs to me that I am quite attached to the fear and anxiety instead of real things.
    Maxine Walden: In my own experience, such a dream is helpful for me to read as a warning that when I get into ‘last minute anxiety’ I am likely to have such interruptions…so watch the anxiety and thus dispel it
    Faenik: could be
    Pia Iger: also bear with me one more detail
    Pia Iger: sometimes when I really got on the airplane, I found the plane do not fly normally
    Pia Iger: it does all kinds of stunt, fly upside down,
    Moon Fargis: yeeehaw
    Pia Iger: or changes speed dramaticly
    Pia Iger: so I could not hold on to my seat.
    Moon Fargis: then next time you dream it.. aks yourself. why the hel should i go into that plane?
    Gambhira Skytower: lol
    Pia Iger: cause I have to go somewhere, in the dream at least
    Moon Fargis: pia: ok flybutton sollution then :)
    Pia Iger: thanks for reminding..
    Maxine Walden: as if the anxiety extends then to destabilize or make untrustworthy the flight as well as your preparations…
    Pia Iger: yes, you can say I felt very much out of control.
    Maxine Walden: right. You know this reminds me of my struggles at times to go into the new (the flight to a new place) and the pull toward the old might say ‘you can’t do that, you will be out of control’; dreads of the new come to me in terms of ‘voices’ which tell me it is dangerous to make that new journey
    Maxine Walden: but there are so many ways to understand dreams and their messages; don’t mean to be taking up too much space
    Maxine Walden: (I will have to go in about 3 minutes, don’t want to just disappear…)

    The meeting starts breaking up.

    Gambhira Skytower: i gotta go
    Fael Illyar: Bye Gambhira :)
    Gambhira Skytower: bye everybody
    Moon Fargis: mye gam
    Moon Fargis: bye
    Maxine Walden: bye, Gambhira
    Pia Iger: bye, Gamb, nice talking to you.
    Pia Iger: Maxine, the talk does give me some lights
    Pia Iger: to discern the fear/anxiety from the reality
    Faenik: could be
    Maxine Walden: I’ll be going as well; nice to talk, and happy of some of these ways to understand are interesting, Pia, nice to share our experiences
    Maxine Walden: Bye, all
    Fael Illyar: Bye Maxine
    Moon Fargis: bye maxine
    Pia Iger: bye Maxine
    Pia Iger: what Moon doing?
    Moon Fargis: :) createing a inworld pab logo
    Fael Illyar: you could use the texture version helping get the parts in right positions and sizes?
    Moon Fargis: yes sure:)
    Pia Iger: the screen behind Fael disappeared!
    Fael Illyar: oh, it did
    Pia Iger: Fael, you look very cool, like having super power:)
    Pia Iger: I was thinking if we can hang a plaque of PaB at the entrance of pavilion
    Moon Fargis: seems someoe call me so i have to leave see you later :)
    Pia Iger: bye, Moon
    Pia Iger: Fael, I need to go too.
    Pia Iger: see you next time.
    Faenik: indeed?

    Alas, I got slightly distracted by RL right at the end so I didn’t manage to respond to Pia before she was gone. Well, at least Faenik said something.

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