2008.07.03 07:00 - Self Has a Motive, Being Doesn't

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    That morning, I met Fael in the pavillon, and we picked up our conversation.

    Pema Pera: Hi Fael!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Looks like we didn’t move in the last six hours :)
    Fael Illyar: we did, we changed seats
    Fael Illyar: last meeting you sat right here, and I sat right there
    Pema Pera: btw, your bell here and the temple bell in RL next to where I live in Kyoto, are extremely well synchronized; at the hour they resound within seconds of each other!
    Pema Pera: yes, I see, you’re right
    Pema Pera: In Kyoto we live next to a temple, but the bell rings only once an hour :)
    Pema Pera: perhaps the RL bell is connected with the internet as well?
    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    Fael Illyar: Well, it only means both are tuned to the same time :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Maxine!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine, Steve, Stranger
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pema, Fael
    Pema Pera: yes, but rather precisely so, Fael
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice to ahve a fast connectiona t work
    Pema Pera: Hi Stranger — nice name!
    Pema Pera: faster than you can type, right, Steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: haha
    Pema Pera: Stranger, come join us!
    Stranger Nightfire: Hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: not likely, but faster Rezz

    Suddenly there were five of us, after Maxine, Steve and Stranger had walked in.

    Pema Pera: Stranger, have you been here before?
    Pema Pera: we get together here four times a day, 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm; see http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
    Stranger Nightfire: first time
    Pema Pera: Welcome!
    Pema Pera: We talk about all kind of things, very different each time
    Pema Pera: What connects us is that we all try to spend a few hours each day
    Pema Pera: on a little exploration in which we spend 9 seconds every 15 minutes
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: stopping what we are doing
    Pema Pera: and looking at “what else is true” besides what we are normally focusing on
    Pema Pera: So it is only a couple minutes a day that we spend on this
    Pema Pera: but somehow it seems that the regularity has an effect
    Pema Pera: and then four times a day we get together here
    Pema Pera: and talk about our experiences
    Pema Pera: and about reality, about life
    Pema Pera: and whatever else comes to mind :)
    Pema Pera: On the blog that I just mentioned, we also record our conversations.
    Pema Pera: Would you mind having our conversation quoted there?
    Stranger Nightfire: no
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Pema Pera: if you have any questions or things you’d like to share, by all means, feel free to do so
    Pema Pera: we don’t have a protocol here — its’ pretty much free for all
    Pema Pera: Maxine, how are you doing?
    Pema Pera: oops
    Pema Pera: ;)
    Maxine Walden: oops?
    Pema Pera: as soon as I asked, your avatar slumped and said (away)

    Fael brought up an important point.

    Fael Illyar: It just occurred to me that logging the conversations on the blog might be one reason these conversations are usually very civil.
    Pema Pera: there is a trick to prevent that, though, to make it *look as if* you are always paying attention
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Maxine Walden: oh, no I am here, just hand away from the keyboard
    Pema Pera: it’s a setting somewhere, forgot where
    Pema Pera: interesting point, Fael!
    Maxine Walden: what is the ‘trick’, oh thanks …
    Pema Pera: I just hope it doesn’t take away from the spontaneity
    stevenaia Michinaga: I do find muself trying to be less “flip” and more thoughtful here
    Pema Pera: hopefully not too much so :)
    Pema Pera: some people here are rather flip some of the time :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: but now and then I can’t hold back
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that!
    Pema Pera: I remember the drunken party we had, first time we came here to the pavilion :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: every new space needs to be “broken in” in some way
    Pema Pera: pavilion warming party — hard with an open roof perhaps?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think we did a good job
    Pema Pera: yup
    Pema Pera: Stranger, have you explored some other activities in Second Life, if I may ask?
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Fael Illyar: Stranger, we have a bell here that gongs every 15 minutes if you want to use it to try some explorations during the meeting.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sky
    Maxine Walden: hi, Sky
    Pema Pera: Hi there, Sky!
    Sky Szimmer: Hey y’all.

    Sky joined us, so there were six of us now.

    Stranger Nightfire: i have to some extent explored building, politics, socilaizing, exploring itself, and crazy relationships to say what comes off he top of he head
    Pema Pera: wow, you’ve really plunge in, great!
    Pema Pera: pretty wild place, isn’t it, SL ?
    Fael Illyar: also, this program can come in handy http://www.mindfulnessdc.org/mindfulclock.html if you want to try doing explorations more often.
    Pema Pera: I hope that our gathering and topic is the most crazy one of all — Playing as Being/All/IT
    Sky Szimmer: hey Pema, i’ve got a question that nagged me this morning but don’t want to interrupt flow
    Pema Pera: sure, Sky
    Pema Pera: go right ahead!
    Sky Szimmer: so you say, there is freedom to Being as there is really no “self”, then every new moment
    Sky Szimmer: is completely created, fresh,
    Pema Pera: yes
    Sky Szimmer: so in theory, we can just go wild and be whatever the mood strikes
    Pema Pera: no
    Sky Szimmer: but then there are implications and karma
    Pema Pera: yes and no
    Pema Pera: :)
    Sky Szimmer: yes and no. I can see that in a dream, none of it its real, including the karmic implications, but then i guess it makes a wild and crazy dream
    Sky Szimmer: so, i guess the question is, do we want to enjoy a wild and crazy
    Sky Szimmer: dream.
    Sky Szimmer: is that more or less correct?
    Pema Pera: Well, let us start with the example of a movie, perhaps a bit simpler at first
    Pema Pera: We know that a movie is just a play of light
    Pema Pera: but if you want to make a good movie
    Pema Pera: just realizing it is “just a play of light” and that every frame is independent
    Pema Pera: doesn’t mean that you can just throw random frames together and call that a movie
    Faenik: indeed?
    Pema Pera: Well, you can, but few people will enjoy your movie :-)
    Pema Pera: indeed, Faenik!
    Sky Szimmer: ah. but does it matter?
    Pema Pera: ultimately no
    Pema Pera: but relatively yes
    Pema Pera: relatively within our world, lives, context
    Pema Pera: it matters a great deal
    Pema Pera: ultimately from the standpoint of Being, which is not a standpoint, no
    Sky Szimmer: so in the example of the movie, within the movie, it matters a great deal
    Pema Pera: nothing does
    Pema Pera: yes, sure!
    Sky Szimmer: ok. thanks.

    I just love the movie analogy . . .

    Pema Pera: but the paradox is:
    Pema Pera: once you know that a movie is only a play of light
    Sky Szimmer: oh there is more…. :)
    Pema Pera: THEN you can really try to make a wonderful movie
    Pema Pera: THEN you are not scared any more by danger
    Pema Pera: THEN you don’t loose yourself in bliss and delight
    Pema Pera: THEN you can taste everything and balance everything
    Sky Szimmer: ah. thanks.
    Pema Pera: without that knowledge balance is almost impossible
    Sky Szimmer: this came up because while in the shower, i thought, there is no reason to continue the thread of this story,
    Sky Szimmer: as I can create a totally different world,
    Pema Pera: showers are great for resetting our dream :)
    Sky Szimmer: but then there are implications, relatively speaking so thus the question
    Pema Pera: yes, great question, and something around which there is always a lot of confusion!
    Pema Pera: For one thing, the you who is part of this world cannot create a different world
    Pema Pera: and the you who you really are sees already that there is no world
    Fael Illyar: what do you think of the sentence “self has a motive, Being doesn’t”?
    Pema Pera: that sounds fair, yes
    Pema Pera: motives are context dependent, and Being is beyond context
    Sky Szimmer: i think that the one that sees there is no world can only create a new world
    Pema Pera: “create” is tricky
    Sky Szimmer: but then the self that is part of the world has to live with the implications
    Pema Pera: can appreciate the appearance of what the self labels a world
    Pema Pera: the self doesn’t live — strictly speaking ;) but relatively speaking, yes
    Sky Szimmer: you are so precise!
    Pema Pera: there are always the two coordinate frames
    Sky Szimmer: thank goodness.
    Pema Pera: absolute and relative
    Pema Pera: each one gives rise to very precise insight
    Pema Pera: but we tend to confuse the two . . . .
    Sky Szimmer: well, it is easy to

    Alas, I had to leave.

    Pema Pera: well, within the relative realm, I now have to go to an astronomy meeting, even though time doesn’t exist . . . .
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Sky Szimmer: : )
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Pema :)
    Maxine Walden: bye, Pema
    Sky Szimmer: see ya,.
    Pema Pera: Fael, would you mind sending me the log later?
    Fael Illyar: Sure
    Pema Pera: By Sky, Max, Stranger, Steve, Fael!
    Pema Pera: Sorry to have little time now
    Pema Pera: but we’re starting a new project in OpenSim
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: fascinating
    Pema Pera: and at the beginning of a new project I’d better be there
    Sky Szimmer: Wonderful!
    Pema Pera: as a cheer leader if nothing else :-)
    Sky Szimmer: you should change!
    Maxine Walden: will be interesting to hear more about that new project as possible
    Pema Pera: change, Sky?
    Sky Szimmer: change to your cheerleader outfit
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Pema Pera: yes, if I ever find time to shop . . . .
    Pema Pera: okay, c u all!

    Fael sent me the rest of the chat log; the comments are still mine.

    Pema Pera: okay, c u all!
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema
    Faenik: why not?
    Sky Szimmer: Maxine, I think Pema talks about the project in one of his blogs
    Maxine Walden: ah, thanks
    Sky Szimmer: blue van wagon or sometime around that one
    Fael Illyar: Sky, I remember thinking about that very same thing myself a couple of years back.
    Sky Szimmer: which?
    Sky Szimmer: my question?
    Fael Illyar: Yes
    Sky Szimmer: what did you come up with Fael
    Fael Illyar: took me a while to remember how I ended up resolving the question but the sentence I just said was pretty much what I got.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: “self has a motive, Being doesn’t”
    Sky Szimmer: that is great insight i think
    Sky Szimmer: i find this stuff like peeling an onion,
    Sky Szimmer: you think you start to see and understand, then another layer peels off and there is more deeper understanding
    Sky Szimmer: it just keeps going
    Fael Illyar: I was initially mightily scared of the idea that if nothing is real, then what’s keeping me from doing things.
    Sky Szimmer: yes.
    Fael Illyar: Interestingly, that was before I had any contact with other people with similar thoughts
    Maxine Walden: as if there is no center of gravity within to hold one together?
    Fael Illyar: well, direct contact, that is
    Sky Szimmer: the freedom is amazing
    Sky Szimmer: what do you mean Maxine?
    Sky Szimmer: freedom is amazing and can be scary to the “self”
    Sky Szimmer: I think.
    Sky Szimmer: at least for me.
    Maxine Walden: if nothing is real, then do we have any sense of inner continuity? Just another take on the sense of ‘no reality’
    Fael Illyar: anyway, my answer was basically that without self, Being will do nothing… although I wasn’t even aware of concept of Being back then.
    Maxine Walden: afraid RL is tugging at my sleeve, so I should go. Nice to see you all
    Sky Szimmer: I think so Maxine. For me, I find that there is something that is changeless, timeless
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: and nice conversation
    Sky Szimmer: Bye Maxine

    Maxine left, and Fael talked about a fascinating mathematics angle.

    Sky Szimmer: Wow, Fael, that is great. It is funny how we seek the truth always
    Fael Illyar: The way I arrived into this is through math, actually.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Sky Szimmer: Ah. That is great. Is that what you do?
    Fael Illyar: Well, yes and no.
    Sky Szimmer: Please share your discovery
    Sky Szimmer: or how you arrive at this
    Fael Illyar: anyway, my thinking back then went along the lines of. If we assume numbers exist
    Fael Illyar: 0 exists, 1 exists, n+1 exists … so on
    Fael Illyar: and if everything can be expressed by some number.
    Fael Illyar: described, so to speak
    Fael Illyar: then, doesn’t the existence of all numbers mean that everything exists… although at the same time you could think it also means nothing does
    Sky Szimmer: wow.
    Sky Szimmer: it certainly explodes my mind : )
    stevenaia Michinaga: Sorry, I thought I’d try this from work today, but it to many things going on in RL, quite different from the 7:PM meetings see you around
    Sky Szimmer: see you Steve.
    Fael Illyar: Ok, bye Steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx

    Steve took off, and Fael, Sky and Stranger continued the discussion.

    Sky Szimmer: Hey Fael, just noticed you described recalling the memory as back then
    Sky Szimmer: is there really a back then as in time?
    Fael Illyar: that’s of course from self-perspective
    Sky Szimmer: ah. yes. of course
    Sky Szimmer: Recently, I have tried to catch my usuage of time references as a matter of exercise
    Fael Illyar: I’m still fuzzy on how or if it’s even possible, to talk about this sort of thing from Being “perspective”
    Sky Szimmer: so I am more keenly aware
    Sky Szimmer: can’t really, I think/
    Fael Illyar: or, if it really is possible to talk at all from Being perspective
    Fael Illyar: Another interesting exercise you could try is try to speak without using the word “I”. Either explicitly or implicitly
    Sky Szimmer: I think we can talk around some of it.
    Fael Illyar: There will be a lot of things you won’t be able to say
    Sky Szimmer: Yes. that is a hard one.
    Sky Szimmer: Hopefully, after a while, this word traps will be less hazardous.
    Fael Illyar: just be aware that words are very imperfect way to express things :)
    Fael Illyar: and keep that in mind whenever you’re reading words.
    Sky Szimmer: Good point.
    Sky Szimmer: Hi Stranger. Like you name.
    Stranger Nightfire: thank you, not even sure where it came from
    Sky Szimmer: Is this your first time here?
    Stranger Nightfire: yes
    Faenik: why not?
    Sky Szimmer: How is it going for you?
    Stranger Nightfire: it is a very interesting idea
    Sky Szimmer: what d’ya think?
    Stranger Nightfire: would be too soon for to very much about it
    Fael Illyar: I like your approach :)
    Stranger Nightfire: say very much
    Fael Illyar: one of my own favourite sentences :)
    Stranger Nightfire: lol
    Sky Szimmer: I need to use that more.
    Sky Szimmer: i open my trap too much for my own good : )
    Fael Illyar: although, whenever I say that, there’s usually a thought saying “it’s interesting” hidden behind it.

    Sky refered to the intriguing text on Stranger’s profile:
    something manifests in the void
    we stand , exspectant
    searcing the open wilderness with out eyes

    Sky Szimmer: your profile statement is very similar to our discussion here
    Sky Szimmer: at least that’s my interpretation
    Stranger Nightfire: i am not even sure what my interpretaton of that statement is
    Stranger Nightfire: it was very strem of consciosness
    Sky Szimmer: the meetings here are held 4 x a day. don’t know if the others mentioned it to you.
    Sky Szimmer: there is a PaB blog if you are interested.
    Fael Illyar: Pema did the introduction :)
    Sky Szimmer: great.
    Sky Szimmer: well. got to run. nice meeting you Stranger. Nice chatting with you Fael.
    Fael Illyar: You too Sky :) Bye
    Stranger Nightfire: good by Sky

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