2008.07.10 07:00 - Time Global and Local

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    For the first half of the log here, I have provided the comments. After I left, Adams took over, and the comments for the second half are hers.

    That morning, when I entered the pavilion, Adams and Maxine were already there, and Fael joined us at almost the same time.

    Maxine Walden: how are you?
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Adams, hi Maxine, good seeing you both!
    Adams Rubble: I am well Maxine, how are you
    Maxine Walden: and you, Pema. I am well, thanks, Adams, nice to be here
    Adams Rubble: yes, of course, and you Pema :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine, Pema, Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
    Pema Pera: Fine! Resting in my hotel room at the end of a looooong day
    Pema Pera: hi Fael!
    Maxine Walden: yes, it is very late for you Pema, nearly midnight
    Adams Rubble: I hope we don;t do anything to disturb your rest
    Fael Illyar: Ah, it’s 11pm in Japan
    Pema Pera: oh no, this is the more restful part of the day
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: I’ve been busy with astro buddies
    Pema Pera: working on getting stars rezzed in OpenSim, the open source version of SL
    Pema Pera: teaching stars to feel a different kind of gravity than we do here
    Pema Pera: attracting each other rather than falling down to teh ground
    Maxine Walden: now that is interesting
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Pema Pera: I wish I could bring you over there
    Faenik loves wells!

    There had been an announcement by Linden Lab, http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/07/08/ibm-linden-lab-interoperability-announcement/, just a few days earlier. It started off with This is a historic day for Second Life, and for virtual worlds in general. IBM and Linden Lab have announced that research teams from the two companies successfully teleported avatars from the Second Life Preview Grid into a virtual world running on an OpenSim server, marking the first time an avatar has moved from one virtual world to another. I commented briefly on that announcement.

    Pema Pera: there *is* now a limited way of teleporting from SL to the OSgrid
    Maxine Walden: I would love to go at some point if it were possible
    Pema Pera: but not yet straightforward
    Pema Pera: perhaps in a few months or so, we’ll have to see
    Pema Pera: but it sure is fun to rezz stars, put there where you want them, and then let them go, and see them circling around each other, like a real star cluster
    Maxine Walden: master of the universe
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Pema Pera: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gM4fmL6dLdY
    Pema Pera: gives you some taste
    Maxine Walden: do they orbit according to Newtonian principles?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Maxine Walden: intriguing
    Pema Pera: inverse square law of attraction
    Maxine Walden: right
    Pema Pera: could easily add general relativity
    Pema Pera: or anything else
    Maxine Walden: wow, that is intriguing
    Pema Pera: there is a simple black hole simulation in the youtube movie we made
    Pema Pera: for which I gave the URL above
    Fael Illyar: Interesting :)

    Fael reported on the great work she has done, helping us all to get up to speed with the new PaB wiki.

    Fael Illyar: I just finished trying out the tutorial I wrote for posting meeting logs on the wiki.
    Pema Pera: great, thank you Fael!
    Maxine Walden: yes, Fael, thanks for that effort, sure it will be very helpful
    Maxine Walden: for such as me
    Pema Pera: I’m always slow with new software too :)
    Fael Illyar: Cal managed to get it wrong still. I think she used Word even though I told her not to.
    Maxine Walden: glad to know I am not alone; it can feel daunting
    Adams Rubble has been listening to singing stars
    Maxine Walden: singing stars?
    Adams Rubble: Pema’s utube video
    Maxine Walden: ah
    Pema Pera: Talking about astro, I’ll have to leave at 7:30 am SLT
    Pema Pera: unfortunately
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: and I’d like to comment on a couple points in your blog, Adams
    Adams Rubble: yes please
    Pema Pera: 6 hours ago I was telling everybody how inspiring I find your relentless exploration
    Pema Pera: of continuing
    Pema Pera: wherever it leads, not stopping when seeming to find answers and not stopping when seeming to be stuck but continuing in both cases
    Pema Pera: Most people find that very hard to do
    Pema Pera: or more accurately, don’t sense that that is an option
    Pema Pera: We are so habituated in wanted to find a solution — then stop — or giving up — then stop.
    Pema Pera: So thank you again for your inspiration!

    After thanking Adams again for setting such a great blog writing example, I brought up the notion of a creator, which she had refered to.

    Pema Pera: The specific question I had, partly a comment, concerns what you wrote about Being as a kind of Creator God
    Pema Pera: There I have a somewhat different understanding of Being
    Pema Pera: I see parallels between Being and notions like God, or Suchness, or Tao
    Pema Pera: but I think the usual understanding of God creating the world does not apply to Being
    Pema Pera: And in fact, I think some of the Christian and Jewish mystics may also have understood that notion in quite a more subtle and different way than it is normally understood
    Faenik: could be
    Pema Pera: For one thing, our everyday understanding of creation means there is a creator and something that is created — a split, a duality, a separation
    Pema Pera: and in Being there is no such.
    Pema Pera: Does that make sense?
    Fael Illyar: If you consider the world we know a dream that is seen by Being, you could consider Being the creator in that way.
    Adams Rubble: thank you for the feedback
    Adams Rubble: I used the God fo Christianity because I kind of understand it
    Adams Rubble: I was looking for the differences
    Fael Illyar: although, dream isn’t exactly creation.
    Adams Rubble: and so my explorations were comparing Being and th4e Christian God
    Pema Pera: which is a great way to start!
    Pema Pera: Every exploration has to start somewhere
    Adams Rubble: I accept the creation not being part of being, thank you
    Adams Rubble: Last night I went to a lecture on Buddhism for beginers
    Adams Rubble: and I asked about dharma
    Adams Rubble: and the isnstructor gave a description that sounded very much like Being
    Adams Rubble: I looked up dharma last night
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Adams Rubble: and it seems this might be a Mahayana tradition

    I hinted at the notion of Being, always hard to pin down.

    Pema Pera: The term Being is something that I collected from a few different sources, mostly outside Buddhism in fact, though it is completely compatible with Buddhism
    Pema Pera: and to say that Being is NOT creating the world may also be wrong . . . :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: Fael’s metaphor of a dream is intriguing
    Pema Pera: a nice pointer
    Fael Illyar: It’s related to what I talked about with stim.
    Pema Pera: What I think *is* wrong is the tendency in Christian circles to see God as the totally other, to be feared, and we as the small “creatures” more or less separate from Him, living in sin, all that
    Adams Rubble: /agrees strongly with that
    Pema Pera: and yet, even there I can see a way that those attitudes “could” be useful, like a medicine taken in the right way — certainly many great mystics in Chirstianity got a lot of mileage out of their religion. Where they to appear here, I would stop talking and let them teach us . . . .
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that’s quite exactly what turned me away from christianity.
    Pema Pera: Specifically, when I say “we are like a hand puppet that cannot do anything by itself” there is overlap with “we are not fit for anything good at all, helpless, hopeless, hapless” :) — IF that is taken in the way of a handpuppet, it can actually be liberating!
    Adams Rubble: It seems to me mystics of various religions have much in common with each other
    Pema Pera: YES!!!
    Pema Pera: they see
    Pema Pera: the same thing
    Pema Pera: reality
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: The problem with Christianity and all religions really is this: Mystics see — try to translate into words — church officials run with the words while collecting money and keeping people in line and in doing so interpreting the words in stifling ways . . . .
    Pema Pera: like pinning butterflies to a page
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adams Rubble: oh my
    Adams Rubble: haha
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that’s a problem
    Pema Pera: watch out Fael!
    Adams Rubble is still laughing
    Pema Pera: Good thing you have Faenik to protect you
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Fael Illyar is clearly missing something now.
    Adams Rubble doesn;t wan’t to be pinned to a page
    Pema Pera: your wings, Fael, make you look like a butterly :)
    Maxine Walden: the corruption of the institutional tendency…and yet it is difficult to remain open and uncertain so we often look to teachers, ‘churches’ to aid us in our uncertainty
    Fael Illyar: Ah :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, it’s a good thing hierarchies are slowly losing power all over the world.
    Maxine Walden: and that very effort, to look for guidance, can pin us down

    From creation to time to aspects of Being

    Pema Pera: If I may say a few words more about “creation”
    Pema Pera: Fael’s softening to dream is a great step
    Pema Pera: and we can make a few more great steps
    Pema Pera: and perhaps keep “creation” by taking off the stifling parts
    Pema Pera: For one thing, creation seems to establish a form of existence and endurance in time
    Pema Pera: whereas a key element in Play as Being is to learn to see that there is no time
    Pema Pera: no past and future
    Pema Pera: not even a present as we normally understand it
    Adams Rubble: hmmmm
    Pema Pera: only a fourth kind of time, you could say
    Pema Pera: and of course I would have to say a whole lot more
    Pema Pera: of what I mean with that
    Pema Pera: otherwise it would be just silly or puzzling
    Pema Pera: In fact, Avastu refered to something similar
    Pema Pera: He is wonderfully helpful in saying pretty much what I’m trying to say
    Pema Pera: but in quite a different way :-)
    Adams Rubble thinks in a very different way
    Pema Pera: perhaps, perhaps not — we have to compare notes in more detail Adams, I think
    Pema Pera: before we can conclude to what extend we think differently, but
    Pema Pera: what do you think our differences are?
    Fael Illyar: This subject makes it so easy to think you’re disagreeing when you’re infact agreeing
    Pema Pera: YES!
    Adams Rubble: yes, I agree with that
    Pema Pera: hahahahahaha
    Pema Pera: that was funny

    So we had just agreed that agreeing may look like disagreeing!

    Adams Rubble: I will have to hear more about the time isue
    Pema Pera: yes, it’s a really big issue
    Pema Pera: Being is one word
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: to key pointers are:
    Pema Pera: no identification and no time
    Pema Pera: we’ve talked more about the first (from having to being) and less about the second
    Pema Pera: looking forward to doing so soon!
    Fael Illyar: Being is simple but the modifications needed to understand it to our complex models of the world are complex.
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, you expressed that very nicely in a chat log I just put up!
    Fael Illyar: which one was that?
    Fael Illyar: … I guess I’ll go look
    Pema Pera: Ah, I found it
    Maxine Walden: It will be very interesting to talk more about time, I think we all would appreciate that, when time allows
    Pema Pera: You were talking about Avastu, that was it.
    Pema Pera: What he’s saying is not complex but to understand it requires us to modify a lot of our complex mental models of the world
    Pema Pera: that’s what you said — applies here too, I think
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/diversions-and-meditations/

    I then tried to translate Being partly into Christian terms.

    Pema Pera: Let me make one opening move, Adams, if I may, about the time discussion, before I leave
    Pema Pera: If I were to say it in Christian terms, this time issue, I might try to talk like a Christian Medieval Mystic, something like
    Pema Pera: “In Gods eye, each moment is already showing the fullness of eternity”
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: we can try to feel that
    Pema Pera: try to look with God’s eye, each moment
    Pema Pera: each moment
    Pema Pera: each moment
    Pema Pera: without trying to understand
    Pema Pera: just trying to do it
    Pema Pera: perhaps we can all do that for a bit
    Maxine Walden: each moment having the fullness of eternity
    Pema Pera: (replacing “God” by whatever we prefer)
    Pema Pera: before we meet again
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Pema :)
    Maxine Walden: I think that a lovely meditation
    Adams Rubble: Thank you Pema. bye :)
    Pema Pera: looking forward to hear from all of you — bfn!
    Adams Rubble does too
    Pema Pera: off to the stars :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, bye

    I had to take off, to attend my astrophysics meeting. Adams would later send me the remainder of the session log. The comments from here on are hers.

    Pema left and Maxine followed quickly

    Maxine Walden: Actually I should be going too; not to the stars, just to more mundane RL stuff
    Adams Rubble: bye Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: so see you all soon.
    Adams Rubble: wow
    Faenik: indeed?
    Fael Illyar: yes?
    Adams Rubble: just a bit overwhelmed :)

    The conversation turns back to posting on the Wiki and I learn about deindenting

    Adams Rubble: on a different note, how do you get the color into the wiki…is that in your tutorial?
    Fael Illyar: I’d prefer leaving that part out. Makes it more difficult to change the style later if people add that to logs too freely.
    Fael Illyar: We can change the general style to include color if that’s useful
    Adams Rubble: OK, it seems as if everyone is using color but me, that’s all :)
    Fael Illyar: I’m hoping they’d stop :P
    Adams Rubble: I’ll start a trend then :)
    Fael Illyar: I’m already wondering how to clear up the mess from most of the logs that have been posted so far.
    Adams Rubble: Ah, any mess from mine?
    Fael Illyar: I think everyone else has been doing it a bit strangely. My posts imitate the style (html-wise) of Pema’s blog posts almost exactly.
    Fael Illyar: Pema called the differences improvements
    Fael Illyar: which ones were yours?
    Faenik: why not?
    Adams Rubble: July 6-Each Day Ends on Time
    Adams Rubble: I see you indented
    Adams Rubble: I left in one heading in wrong size I see
    Fael Illyar: Yours is the closest to correct and easiest to fix to be the way it should be.
    Adams Rubble: So, should we all be indenting?
    Fael Illyar: that’s the way all the logs in the blog are currently
    Fael Illyar: and I think it makes it easy to tell the comments and meeting log apart
    Adams Rubble: how do you indent? Is that in your tutorial?
    Fael Illyar: I think the process I outline in the tutorial makes it quite easy
    Adams Rubble: OK, I’ll look
    Fael Illyar: one indent for the logs, one deindent for each comment
    Adams Rubble: deindent?
    Fael Illyar: well, the decrease indent button
    Fael Illyar: as opposed to increase indent
    Adams Rubble: ah, new to me
    Fael Illyar: but since your version has comments already, you’ll have to use the increase indent
    Faenik: why not?
    Fael Illyar: for each log part

    Then we begin to discuss time on a less global scale then mentioned earlier

    Fael Illyar: change the 7AM to read 07:00 while you’re at it :)
    Fael Illyar: oh right, speaking of that, I’ll change the tutorial that way
    Adams Rubble: I have great problems compensating for SL time; I am going to ahve a terible time thinking in a 24 hour clock :)
    Adams Rubble: 4 pm then becomes 1 pm and then that becomes 13 o’oclock
    Fael Illyar: just think of AM to mean plus 0 hours and PM to mean plus 12 hours
    Adams Rubble: easy for you to say :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Fael Illyar: I don’t think of the meetings in terms of my local time usually.
    Adams Rubble: Ah, I do
    Fael Illyar: your time is +3 hours from SL time?
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Fael Illyar: ok then, AM is -3 hours and PM is +9 :)
    Adams Rubble: we’ll see if I can remember that :)
    Adams Rubble: that would make the 7 pm session at 19.00?
    Fael Illyar: if it goes over 24, subtract 24 :)
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Adams Rubble: haha
    Adams Rubble: It might be easier to remember 13:00 and 19:00 and forget all the math :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it is :)
    Fael Illyar: it’s a like a meeting number. not much different from 1,2,3,4 or a,b,c,d. just different markers
    Adams Rubble: yes, it is
    Fael Illyar: 1,7,13,19
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adams Rubble: Maybe that should get written into the intriductory page of the blog :)
    Fael Illyar: frontpage?
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Adams Rubble: for the times. Maybe in a parentheses after the 7,1,7,1
    Fael Illyar: ah, there
    Fael Illyar: yes, good idea
    Adams Rubble: get us all used to thinking in those terms
    Adams Rubble: I won;t have to worry about the 19:00; I’ll be asleep :)
    Adams Rubble: OH, no, It’s the other way around isn;t it
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: I’ll be asleep for the 1
    Fael Illyar: let’s see, 13:00 one is the one you usually leave after 30 minutes
    Fael Illyar: 19:00 is the one when I’m asleep and you seem to be there often
    Adams Rubble: 19:00 is at my bed tiome but sometimes I stay up
    Fael Illyar: 1:00, usually has Pema but is too early for you.
    Fael Illyar: 7:00 we’re doing right now
    Adams Rubble: Yes, the 7:00
    Adams Rubble: Well, we managed to fill the second half hour with TIME :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, quite so :)
    Adams Rubble: Would you like me to post the chat log?
    Fael Illyar: I still have one to piece up from this morning :)
    Fael Illyar: well, the part after Pema left
    Adams Rubble: OK, I’ll do it then…good practive for tomorrow. I have to remember to deindent :)
    Fael Illyar: the instructions are there. :)
    Fael Illyar: I did some experimentation for the simplest possible process for doing it.
    Adams Rubble: has a secret…she never reads instructions
    Fael Illyar: and that’s in the tutorial
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I promise to read it :)
    Fael Illyar: maybe I should make another tutorial for people with clue that’s shorter and assumes they know something?
    Adams Rubble: Don’t know the answer to that
    Fael Illyar: otherwise these people likely won’t read it :)
    Adams Rubble: thinks “like me”
    Fael Illyar: I’d myself find it a bit bothersome to read a tutorial like the one I wrote :P
    Adams Rubble: haha

    I decide to share a tip about attachments that I learned last night at the Itsari Temple but find that Fael already knew about it

    Fael Illyar: I don’t need to be explained where each button is.
    Adams Rubble: Did you see my log this morning?
    Fael Illyar: your blog?
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Fael Illyar: Yes
    Adams Rubble: I went to the lecture last night as I said earlier
    Adams Rubble: The instructor had an interesting tip for attachments
    Adams Rubble: to think of them as a crying child
    Adams Rubble: and notice them but sooth them
    Fael Illyar: I think I’ve heard that somewhere
    Adams Rubble: say “there there”
    Adams Rubble: Ah, it was new to me
    Fael Illyar: and come to think of it, that’s what I do to them
    Faenik: why not?
    Adams Rubble: I can’t wait to try it out
    Adams Rubble: He actually used baby but it doesn;t work for babies
    Adams Rubble: they just cry louder until they are fed or their diapers are changed :)
    Adams Rubble: Well, I better go too…I promise to read the tutorial :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: Ok, have fun :)
    Adams Rubble: Well my office isn’t fun these days but I’ll try :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, considering you managed it that well without tutorial, you probably can handle it. just look at the part 10. of the middle section
    Fael Illyar: that’s not something you’ll notice yourself
    Adams Rubble: OK. bye then for now :)
    Fael Illyar: Bye :)

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