2008.07.11 07:00 - Knowing Nothing

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     Adams Rubble was the guardian and the comments and photos are Adams'

    When I arrived at the pavailion, Fael was already there. Doug soon joined us. (see: http://www.flickr.com/photos/2846443...7606106042964/ for two images from todays session)

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    Fael Illyar: hi Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adams Rubble: hi Faenik
    Faenik: hi Adams
    Fael Illyar: hi doug
    Adams Rubble: Hi Doug
    Fael Illyar is on phone.
    doug Sosa: hi all.
    Adams Rubble: How are you today, Doug?
    doug Sosa: well mostly. lots of driving yesterday after very intense meetings. i like to do a little yoga when i get up but this morning it was just a shower.
    Adams Rubble: A very busy time
    doug Sosa: I also stayed up last night after getting home, stupidly looking on the net for the perfect box to hold an uncertain collections of oilpaints.
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I've done that - sometimes it takes a while to wind down
    doug Sosa: yes.
    Adams Rubble: I got myself real tired one day this past week
    doug Sosa: but being tired is also interesting, in a way we can see the body and mind (if not others) better.
    Adams Rubble: I usually just get cranky :)
    Faenik: could be
    doug Sosa: see! know it.
    Fael Illyar: Ok, off the phone for a few minutes now at least.
    Adams Rubble: wb Fael

    Fael recounted some thoughts while walking to work. This begins a discussion about lying to oneself

    Fael Illyar: Ok, now to try to remember some of the things I was thinking about while walking to work today...
    Fael Illyar: Oh right, I found some self-images while walking.
    doug Sosa: reflections in glass?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: from my mind
    Adams Rubble: sounds interesting Fael, can you tell us more?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think one of those is not lying to myself.
    Adams Rubble: Do you mean about attractions, identities?
    Fael Illyar: yes, I think that's part of my identity
    Fael Illyar: although "not lying to myself" is a bit stricter than the image I found.
    Fael Illyar: As in, it's not absolute "I don't lie to myself" but more like "I will watch for if I lie to myself"
    Adams Rubble: Sort of an awareness program :)
    Fael Illyar: Sort of, yes

    Neela arrives

    Fael Illyar: Hi Neela
    Adams Rubble: Hi Neela
    Adams Rubble: That's a good question "Am I lying to myself?"
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello everyone
    doug Sosa: how does "not lying" relate to "chosing what to say to myslef, what to notice?"
    Fael Illyar: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to let this sort of attachment go.
    doug Sosa: hi, sorry slow on that.
    Adams Rubble: Fael, I am confused about what you are saying
    Faenik loves wells!
    Adams Rubble: I guess the question is what attachment is it not good to let go of?
    Neela Blaisdale: attachment of caring for others?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it's sort of like is there any sense in having a choice in whether or not to fool yourself.

    Cal joins the group followed by Sky making six of us

    Fael Illyar: Hi Cal
    Adams Rubble: Hi Cal
    doug Sosa: hi
    Neela Blaisdale: Once you know you're fooling yourself I don't think you can go back
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Cal
    Caledonia Heron: hello there :)
    Adams Rubble: yes Neela
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sky
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Sky
    Adams Rubble: Hi Sky
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Sky Szimmer: hey there
    Fael Illyar: Neela, well, it would be sort of hard I guess :)
    Adams Rubble: I wonder if understand lying to ouselves is a way of understanding our attachments
    Adams Rubble: I'm not sure I have identified all mine
    Adams Rubble: Actually I am sure I haven't :)
    Fael Illyar: I think this attachment is more of actively looking for cases where I might be fooling myself.
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes because we're lying in the dervice of hoping for something
    Neela Blaisdale: I meant service
    doug Sosa: "I am the center of the world" and "I am absolutely tiny" are both true, but can't easily be told at the same time. "I am" is already a choice among these. not quite a lie, but..
    Fael Illyar: This and one another I noticed this morning are the first attachments I've found that are of the permanent type I think.
    Sky Szimmer: sorry i came late but what lie are we talking about
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: I noticed this morning that part of what I take for my identity is that "I actively look for cases when I might be fooling myself"
    Neela Blaisdale: sort of being mindful of your inner self?
    Fael Illyar: sort of, yes.
    Fael Illyar: although, I'm a bit uncertain whether this really is attachment though.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: now that I thought a bit more, I'm not sure if I do it all the time.
    Sky Szimmer: i think it is an attachment to a self when there is a notion that there is a concrete entity call self
    Neela Blaisdale: I think attachment denotes an emotional tie so are you also talking about self love?
    Sky Szimmer: is self love an emotional tie?
    Neela Blaisdale: That's a good question
    doug Sosa: it is ok to be concerned about the self, just don't make a big deal of it.
    Neela Blaisdale: How do you tell where the line is?
    Sky Szimmer: relatively it is great to take care of oneself, but absolutely there is no self
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    doug Sosa: It isn't. it is like the arrangement of chess pieces on the board. it IS and it ISNT. depends. letting things depend is ok.
    doug Sosa: There is no line, yet at times there is.
    Caledonia Heron: except when there isn't
    Neela Blaisdale: :):)
    Faenik: ah :)

    Cal introduces the concept of nothingness into the conversation and Doug departs

    Caledonia Heron: what's really radical to me anyway is that there isn't really anything...it's all made up, it's all unreal and...real at the same time
    doug Sosa: ok to treat it as real much of the time. otherwise it is hard to move around.
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: looks like I get to be afk for a while.
    Caledonia Heron: lol, exactly....my mental dilemma is that is I come to fully actualize the nothingness around me I will cease to function
    Caledonia Heron: as I now know it
    doug Sosa: my 7:30 bell. must ephemeralize. bye. excuse.
    Sky Szimmer: later.
    Adams Rubble: bye Doug
    Neela Blaisdale: bye doug
    Sky Szimmer: does the knowing of nothingness stay in your awareness all the time?
    Sky Szimmer: do you still forget?
    Sky Szimmer: maybe forget is not the right word, but get distracted
    Caledonia Heron: no, I'm not aware of nothingness all the time, just slices of it here and there
    Sky Szimmer: what do you mean by slices
    Sky Szimmer: what is that like
    Caledonia Heron: time slices, times typcially when at rest and non focus that I get well....nothing :)
    Sky Szimmer: that last part i don't quite understand, when you are at rest or non focus, then what
    Caledonia Heron: I guess it's nothing anyway
    Neela Blaisdale: the question is is the nothingness really there all the time even when you're not aware of it?
    Adams Rubble is having trouble understanding nothingness in general
    Caledonia Heron: I have no idea Sky....that's why I come here, to find out what it's like for you guys to help define what I perceive as nothingness
    Caledonia Heron: yes, I think so Neela....it's always there because .....it's always there
    Sky Szimmer: humm, are you saying when you are at rest or non focus, there is a sense of nothingness
    Sky Szimmer: there is really only nothing, but a tiny, every so tiny point of focus, seem to make it continuously something
    Caledonia Heron: sometimes Sky, yes... and sometimes it is more nothing than others....maybe 2 or 3 times in the last years, a sense of profound nothingness
    Fael Illyar: does that mean reality seems sort of dreamlike?
    Sky Szimmer: how long does this sense of profound nothingness last
    Caledonia Heron: I think it is a kind of dream ....of which we dream....and have dreams....it sounds ridiculous when I type that
    Neela Blaisdale: No it doesn't
    Sky Szimmer: you you think by the way, that the every so tiny point of focus can stop?
    Caledonia Heron: I don't know Sky.....not long because the second I think it's nothingness it goes away
    Sky Szimmer: ah. : )
    Neela Blaisdale: it may be that like self and non self, nothingness and somethingness can coexist at the same time?
    Adams Rubble: There are times when I meditate that nothing is there
    Caledonia Heron: yess Neela, it's all rolling along together in my estimation
    Faenik: why not?
    Sky Szimmer: humm, i don't know if i have ever felt an profound sense of nothingness
    Sky Szimmer: sounds fun
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: hmmm, not fun in the sense of yeehaw or wow but something that sticks with you over time that goes to who you are, at your core, and there is a shift of some sort, like you know something , something "else"
    Sky Szimmer: to feel that must be powerful
    Caledonia Heron: yes, and then it goes away and you have a memory of it and a wondering about it ....and I think the exercise here is to frequent that possible space so repeatedly that it becomes a more familiar place
    Caledonia Heron: more of a possibility and a potential way of "being"
    Faenik: could be
    Sky Szimmer: has it worked for you?
    Sky Szimmer: that it is a more familiar place?
    Caledonia Heron: sure, sometimes.....
    Fael Illyar: maybe thinking it's nothingness prevents you from seeing it anymore. If I've understood correctly, it shouldn't be possible to express in words.
    Sky Szimmer: by being in SL or the PaB
    Neela Blaisdale: ?pab
    Caledonia Heron: well, I would agree with that statement partially Fael, I feel particulary inarticulate in trying to relate my experience
    Sky Szimmer: sure Fael, nothingness is still a concept
    Neela Blaisdale: oh I realize play as being
    Faenik: why not?
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Caledonia Heron: nice Sky
    Sky Szimmer: so Cal.., is the exercise working for you because of SL, or the 9 sec practice

    Sky suddenly appears on the opposite side of the pavilion under the wind chimes

    Sky Szimmer: oops, i don't know what happened there. it was nice though
    Sky Szimmer: BTW, how do i silence this chime that I hear?
    Caledonia Heron: mmmm, well, it is a methodology or discipline for me...to actually take time to explore it on a regular, more systematic basis
    Sky Szimmer: which SL
    Caledonia Heron: 9sec
    Windchime Bronze 12: Adams Rubble picked the option 'Volume'.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Windchime Bronze 12: Adams Rubble picked the option '20%'.
    Caledonia Heron: sl is just a medium to discuss with the rest of you, people who are interested in exploring the same thing, imo
    Sky Szimmer: oh i see. sorry i am asking for specifics, as it seems like SL itself, aside from our usual gathering may offer some insight
    Caledonia Heron: I can see that might be possible but it's not true for me
    Sky Szimmer: thanks Adams for turning that chime down
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Neela Blaisdale: For me SL has brought an awareness of universality,linkage
    Adams Rubble: I see SL as a great analogy for ones self
    Caledonia Heron: interesting
    Sky Szimmer: how has your 9 sec been going? are you very systematic about it?
    Sky Szimmer: everybody?
    Adams Rubble: Well, mine is pretty much laid out on the log. I had a drop off for a few days and now I'm back :)
    Caledonia Heron: I'm in training :)
    Neela Blaisdale: As I'm new I don't know yet about the 9 seconds
    Adams Rubble: I think the log helps tremendously to keep me going
    Sky Szimmer: great!
    Adams Rubble: going
    Caledonia Heron: you can go to playasbeing.wik.is to find out about it Neela
    Faenik: why not?
    Neela Blaisdale: Oh I've been going to the webite, will try the wiki
    Neela Blaisdale: TY
    Caledonia Heron: much of the data is the same....reorganized on the wiki
    Sky Szimmer: so, if one can speak of goals, is the goal here to be in a constant state of profound nothingness
    Sky Szimmer: in the sense that you described Cal/
    Neela Blaisdale: or a state of constant awareness?Play As Being Wiki
    Sky Szimmer: it seems to me that there maybe a difference
    Caledonia Heron: that could be a goal....
    Sky Szimmer: is that right Cal.
    Sky Szimmer: i am directing the question to you because it is your description of the profound nothingness
    Fael Illyar: There is no goal :)
    Sky Szimmer: : )
    Caledonia Heron: my goal is to be flexible enough, permeable enough to allow the 9 sec to show up when it does and be with it as it unfolds
    Sky Szimmer: that is a nice statement
    Neela Blaisdale: In a way the idea of seeking nothingness is paradoxical because how can you seek it if it is nothing?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Sky Szimmer: can't seek what is already there and is always so
    Caledonia Heron: this discussion is a way for me to explore tapping into that, being available to that
    Sky Szimmer: yes Cal. for me too and I am sure for all of us involved here
    Caledonia Heron: lol, totally self-serving but of course I can cast it in the light of improving the human experience one being at a time...ha ha
    Adams Rubble: Well, we all need to seek what we need :)
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes, this is so interesting. Have to go, enjoyed this am very much. Have a good day everyone
    Fael Illyar: The idea is that you don't seek for it, you see it's alraedy there
    Caledonia Heron: yes Adams, I'm joking but sort of not.... :)
    Adams Rubble: nye Neela
    Adams Rubble: bye
    Sky Szimmer: bye
    Fael Illyar: Bye Neela :)
    Caledonia Heron: bye Neela

    Neela leaves us and we continue to dscuss nothingness

    Adams Rubble: I still do not understand nothingness
    Caledonia Heron: there's nothing to get Adams....that's what so darn funny
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Sky Szimmer: not get, but there is seeing and understanding don't you think
    Fael Illyar: Or you could say you already know, you just don't know you do.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Caledonia Heron: I think closer Fael, imo
    Sky Szimmer: for me, i see it, and understand it intellectually, but i don't actually believe it
    Sky Szimmer: that is why i am here.
    Caledonia Heron: beliefs are a taxonomy of sorts, ways and systems to categorize positions and where we fall on them I think
    Adams Rubble: yes Cal
    Sky Szimmer: in my personal experience Adams, it has been like an onion, an insight comes, you see something, then another one comes, and you see a bit more clearly or at a different angle
    Fael Illyar: Sky, I'd tend to interpret that sentence that you don't know what it is.
    Sky Szimmer: just peeling layers of disillusion off
    Caledonia Heron: the being that is explored here, in my understanding, is outside of that
    Adams Rubble: There is a language issue, for me at least, as well
    Sky Szimmer: outside of what

    I misunderstand that Sky is talking to Cal

    Adams Rubble: as well as a level of understanding Sky
    Caledonia Heron: sure Adams, vocabulary ....usage....we all parse it different,
    Sky Szimmer: the being that you are exploring is outside of what Cal
    Caledonia Heron: outside of belief
    Sky Szimmer: sure, but the self is stuck in belief
    Caledonia Heron: aha!
    Adams Rubble: ahh, belief
    Caledonia Heron: maybe not
    Faenik: could be

    We simultaneously begin to relate belief and reality

    Caledonia Heron: belief is a construct that can be left, put down if you will, imo
    Sky Szimmer: well, one can see beyond reality, but then at another moment, not
    Adams Rubble: Belief implies acceptance of something one has not experienced or seen...thus not reality
    Sky Szimmer: strike beyond
    Adams Rubble: we all seem to be on the same page :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, Adams, we are circling around the same thing I think
    Sky Szimmer: well, i got to go.
    Sky Szimmer: thanks for the discussion.
    Adams Rubble: bye Sky
    Caledonia Heron: yes, me too - thank you all ....rambling a bit today :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Cal
    Fael Illyar: Yes... it does seem to me that if you believe in Being, you don't get it.
    Caledonia Heron: to quote Faenik...could be :)
    Caledonia Heron: bye :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: Bye Cal :)
    Fael Illyar: Bye Sky :)
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