2008.07.14 19:00 - the bells and the birds and the fading light

Thorberg Nordlicht here. I'm Guardian tonight. (This is my first time posting to the new wiki. I've got to post and run. I'll be back later to tidy up.)

doug Sosa: hello thorberg.
doug Sosa: i love the bells and the birds and the fading light.
Thorberg Nordlicht: ah, thanks for the reminder; I didn't have my speakers on; yes, i agree; very nice
doug Sosa: this time of evening (here it blends in withoutside sounds so i can't tell which is which, and the light is almost the same
Pia Iger: Hi, Doug, Thor
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Pia; welcome; have a seat
doug Sosa: i don't see any bow gesture.
Thorberg Nordlicht: doug was just commenting on the sound and light in SL this time of the evening
Pia Iger: sorry, Doug, almost step on you.
Pia Iger: oh?
doug Sosa: i wouldn't need to say ouch.
Pia Iger: :)
Pia Iger: you know you can change the lighting under Wolrd> Enviorment settings.
doug Sosa: it would feel like reaching up and pulling the sun to a new position.
doug Sosa: nice to let it do what it wants.
Pia Iger: we could do it in SL:)
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, and i make use of that when i need th light for building (or checkin' out a nice lookin' avatar), but usually I end up going back to the default for the SL time of day
Pia Iger: so you two like to be natural, not forcing.
doug Sosa: when those avatars almost step on you, well, its just not the same.
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, for me it makes the virtual environment more... uh... "real" (if that can make any sense)
doug Sosa: yes. i trat it as though it is, let it be a real place with real experience.
doug Sosa: "treat"
Thorberg Nordlicht: i'm often very surprised by things like SL sunsets and the way light reflects off the water
Thorberg Nordlicht: not the same as RL, of course, but a surprising degree of "richness" for a virtual environment
doug Sosa: since i don't understand the contruction process i juat let it be, in amazement.
Pia Iger: in RL, cities, we don't feel sunset at all, hiding in the buildings.
Thorberg Nordlicht: simple "construction" is surprisingly easy in SL; we can go to a sandbox and "play" some time if you like
doug Sosa: well, i remember in my childhood in ny being amazed by the late afternoon reflection of the sun off the glass in so many directions.
Thorberg Nordlicht: although there are plenty of things to do in SL, so I'm sure you can have a long and interesting Second Life without ever building anything
doug Sosa: I would love that Thorberg.
Pia Iger: I've not built anything yet.
doug Sosa: maybe with both join up.
Thorberg Nordlicht: you may not be aware, but there are "sandbox sims" -- entire sims -- where you can build stuff
doug Sosa: "we both"
Thorberg Nordlicht: also, there's a Zen Retreat sandbox, somewhere close by, i think
Pia Iger: We also have sandbox in our PaB land.
Thorberg Nordlicht: ah, yes, a PasB sandbox
doug Sosa: I think i now have the "privelage" of building here and would love to do a little hut and garden.
Thorberg Nordlicht: maybe for us, that's a better -- more private -- place to go
doug Sosa: could we make a time for next week?
Thorberg Nordlicht: not to change the subject, but anyone been practicing the 9-second moment" meditation? anything to share?
doug Sosa: good leadership!
Pia Iger: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
doug Sosa: Since learning how to do it, it blends into my normal life which becomes more nine second periods than we expected.
Thorberg Nordlicht: hey there Steve!
doug Sosa: bow
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Thorberg Nordlicht: welcome
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
Pia Iger: doug, you need to type / before bow.
doug Sosa: pia how did you do that bow?
doug Sosa: ah!
doug Sosa: /bow
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((wonder what happens if I "bow" sitting down))
doug Sosa: /bow
Pia Iger: doug, try again.
stevenaia Michinaga: rezzing
doug Sosa: only my head seems to bow
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((that works))
doug Sosa: /bow
Pia Iger: weird. You are not bowing like us, Doug.
doug Sosa: /bow
doug Sosa: nope, like i need some yoga
Pia Iger: you are nodding.
doug Sosa: but then do you see my /bow letters? I don't see yours.
Thorberg Nordlicht: I'm seeing another avatar has joined us, but hasn't rezzed, yet; no name ballon above their head; hello stranger
doug Sosa: this is worth a nine second observation of total incompetence.
stevenaia Michinaga: brb, cats nails need clipping
doug Sosa: my bowingthat is.
Pia Iger: Doug, can you open your gesture folder, see if bow is active?
doug Sosa: ha!
stevenaia Michinaga: back, very mellow cat
doug Sosa: skillful claw cutting!
Thorberg Nordlicht: ?
stevenaia Michinaga: years of petting and several miles of scratches on my arm
doug Sosa: back to the 9 sec.
Thorberg Nordlicht: I've drifted away from my meditation practice this week; just too immersed in Real Life
doug Sosa: i like to treat real life like a yoga posture. The other night..
doug Sosa: i was strating a cold and said to my partner, and she smiled,..
doug Sosa: that it was so intresting watching my reactions body and mind..
doug Sosa: as the bacteria were momentarily winning.
Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: felling any better, now?
doug Sosa: yes, i won.
Thorberg Nordlicht: *feeling
Thorberg Nordlicht: good!
Thorberg Nordlicht: I wonder if the bacteria are sentient; do they know they "lost" :)
doug Sosa: won and feeling good, but now my back is sore because i went down to the river to trim some branches that wer overgrown, and listened on my Ipod to a novel about trapsing through the jungle in vietnam.
doug Sosa: I felt like I was in African Queen, dripping with sweat and confronted with huge indeterminate tangles.
Thorberg Nordlicht: yikes! "jungle" "Viet Nam"; heavy stuff
stevenaia Michinaga: pain is not much different from getting sick
doug Sosa: and, nine seconds, both very interesting, what they do to our cosmology.
Pia Iger: not clear to me, what is the "both"?
doug Sosa: sick and pain from clearing brnaches at the edge of the river.
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Solo
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Solobill
Pia Iger: Hello, Solo
Solobill Laville: Hello, all!
doug Sosa: As I cleared I could walk along a branch to cut others, with aa hand saw, or one of those curved saws at the end of a fifteen foot pole.
Thorberg Nordlicht: so, Steve, how's you Catholic friend, the one with the "I should have known better" problem; that was *you* talking about her last week, right? been thinking about her all week
doug Sosa: bell means bye, dinner ready.
Solobill Laville: Bye, Doug
Thorberg Nordlicht: thanks for stopping by, doug
stevenaia Michinaga: We speak intermittantly.. could be weeks or months, that was one conversation we had after 18 months of little conversation of substance
Solobill Laville: Is this a "guilt" issue with her, Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: bigtime
Thorberg Nordlicht: been thinking about her "problem"; that's a classic dilemma in Christianity and buddhism... holding our "past self" responsible for something
stevenaia Michinaga: on the other side my jewish wife went to a catholic girls high school, so you might say I have a bit of experience with guilt
Solobill Laville: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, guilt of a past self .. an interesting concept
Pia Iger: Quilt may be an attachment that's very hard for us to detach.   <<< very funny&clever, Pia -- Thorberg
Solobill Laville: That is an interesing point, especially in regards to Buddhist converts for Christian backgrounds
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((assume you meant "guilt", but I like "quilt" too))
Solobill Laville: replacing guilt with Karma
Solobill Laville: I love quilts!
Solobill Laville: hehe
Pia Iger: Yes. Thor.
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you for that correction, thought Quilt was a member here from time to time
Thorberg Nordlicht: hmm, "guilt as attachment" and "replacing guilt with Karma"; now it's getting interesting
Solobill Laville: Oh, I have definately worked on letting go of guilt in my personal practice
Solobill Laville: Effectively, for the most part, I must say
Solobill Laville: ;)
stevenaia Michinaga: or letting go of guilt of the past so so is no longer relivant except as something to learn from
stevenaia Michinaga: forgiving yourself
Solobill Laville: yes!
Solobill Laville: Oh, that is a huge one for me...
Thorberg Nordlicht: seems to be the heart of the dilemma is the absurdity of holding our past self responsible for knowing something there was no way to know at the time
stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be for many people
Thorberg Nordlicht: consider a simpler case: I'm about to leave to go somewhere and I ask myself "what am I forgetting?"
Thorberg Nordlicht: if I knew the answer, then I wouldn't be forgetting it! :)
stevenaia Michinaga: learning from it does not mean keeping it as part of your life weighing you down
Solobill Laville: hehe
Solobill Laville: RIght, but of learning, and just learning, and then letting the learning go
Solobill Laville: that too is important
stevenaia Michinaga: ever say, "I won;t do that again"
stevenaia Michinaga: ever wonder why?
Solobill Laville: I say, "note to self..."
stevenaia Michinaga: you jsut moved on
stevenaia Michinaga: you choose what it applies to, and what it doesn;t
Solobill Laville: "Don't loan out your wife's tile saw again..."
Solobill Laville: And I haven't
Solobill Laville: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: why? it never came back?
Solobill Laville: Yeah, pretty much
stevenaia Michinaga: or not yours to loan?
Solobill Laville: Actually, it was her sister's...
stevenaia Michinaga: or, next time ask first
Solobill Laville: you see my error
stevenaia Michinaga: so never loan out sister's tile saw
Solobill Laville: Rule # 478 of marital bliss
Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: if you sister-in-law sets tile, she could snap you in two
Solobill Laville: hehe
Solobill Laville: if my wife didn't kill me first....
Solobill Laville: anyway, it gets back to guilt, in a way
stevenaia Michinaga: dead and snaped in two..
Solobill Laville: If the snappin' in two didn't kill ya, bein' dead will!
Solobill Laville: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: so a lessoned learn, what guilt are you holding that you can't let go of?
stevenaia Michinaga: that's the issue here
Thorberg Nordlicht: amusing, but i've kind of lost the thread; is the point that you "should have known better than to loan, etc.", but "seemed like the right thing to do at th time"?
Solobill Laville: on that, nothing, that would perhaps be more regret
Solobill Laville: The issue was not taking into account another's feelings
Pia Iger: yes, Thor, the reason we can let it go, cause we think we should have known better.
Solobill Laville: And only trying to help someone else
Pia Iger: *can't
stevenaia Michinaga: we were talking about past guilt that we carry with us, here is an example of guilt that we left behind and learned from without changing the past
Solobill Laville: yes
Solobill Laville: but i can both let the guilt go and not make the cause of the guilt occur again
Solobill Laville: that is not necessarily easy
Solobill Laville: practice, practice
Thorberg Nordlicht: for me, I have to remind myself that in fact I did what seemed like the right thig at the time based on what I knew then; and then as you suggest just "let it go"
Solobill Laville: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: *thing
Solobill Laville: that's a good example, Thor
stevenaia Michinaga: but why can you live and learn from some things and not from others, carrying the guilt with you instead?
Solobill Laville: It's different for everyone, i think Steve
Solobill Laville: for me
Solobill Laville: i get to deeper and deeper levels of things the more i sit
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm just asking, looking for examples
Solobill Laville: ah
Solobill Laville: I have had many instances of what Thor was talking about my past
Solobill Laville: behaving disrespectfully to someone close, for example
Solobill Laville: and though it was since past (15 - 20 years in this case)
Solobill Laville: I still carried it with me
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, loss is also a great learning experience
Solobill Laville: One of my biggest challenges is forgiving myself
Solobill Laville: for things that I was unable to realize at the time
Solobill Laville: Not fair seemingly, is it?
stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes it's NOT doing something that weighs heavily on me, so now I act more
Thorberg Nordlicht: not fair to "yourself" you mean?
Solobill Laville: Yes, that was my meaning, but i meant generally to all of us
Solobill Laville: We force ourselves to carry that baggage
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i agree, applies to all of us
Pia Iger: 'fair" is a tricky word.
Solobill Laville: Indeed, Pia
stevenaia Michinaga: baggage can define us as well as be the tools of change
Solobill Laville: I agree Steve
Solobill Laville: Can I tell a brief story to reinfirce this idea?
Pia Iger: pls
stevenaia Michinaga: please
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes; please do
Solobill Laville: Two monks, sworn to celebacy, were walking down a forested mountain path
Solobill Laville: They came to a churning river
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((just thinking about that very story))
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: At the river's edge there was a beautiful woman
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((go on; sorry to intrrupt))
Solobill Laville: She was distraught as she was afraid to cross by herse;f
Solobill Laville: The older monk said, "Please allow me to carry you across"
Solobill Laville: She accepted, and he lifted her and carrier her across on his shoulders
Solobill Laville: Later, after monks had left the river far behind
Solobill Laville: the younger said, "we are sworn to celebacy, how could you touch that woman?"
Solobill Laville: The older one said
Solobill Laville: "I carried her for only a short time. You are still carrying her. Put her down and let her go">
Solobill Laville: Is that the one, Thor?
Thorberg Nordlicht: very appropriate example (and retelling) thanks
Pia Iger: (heard this story before, too)
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, that's the one, but you told it much better than i would have; thanks
stevenaia Michinaga: I didn't, thanks
Solobill Laville: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: a deeper Zen analysis would of course point out that there's really no "self" to even carry the baggage (or guilt), but as soon as we immerse in the notion of a "self", the baggage comes along with it
Thorberg Nordlicht: to drop the baggage, first drop the "self"
Solobill Laville: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: the older/wiser monk had already "moved on" while the youger mnk was still back by the rivr
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks Thor
stevenaia Michinaga: I am understanding dropping self a bit better
Thorberg Nordlicht: seems I can't type very well tonight
stevenaia Michinaga: my fault, it;s contagious
Thorberg Nordlicht: the "past self" we're so eager to hold accountable for past actions doesn't even exist
stevenaia Michinaga: it's called stevenaia-esque typing.. and you got it
Pia Iger: It makes sense, Thor. though not easy to understand.
Pia Iger: to me, the consequences of not letting go can be severe.
Pia Iger: there are so many tragedies due to ppl not letting go
stevenaia Michinaga: if you let them
Solobill Laville: I think the practice of letting go - of guilt, anger, thoughts - can be rungs of the ladder to ultimately letting go of the self
Solobill Laville: But that is a great and very deep fear for most of us, especially us for the individualized West
stevenaia Michinaga: you mean loosing what you let go of?
Solobill Laville: As in "losing" the self?
Solobill Laville: I prefer "letting go"
Solobill Laville: But it would be the same I guess, yes
Solobill Laville: Losing assumes you have something to lose, which I think is a cause of the fear
Solobill Laville: But if there is nothing there, what is to lose?
stevenaia Michinaga: you never loose the experience
Solobill Laville: THat is ture
Solobill Laville: let me try again, that is true
Thorberg Nordlicht: it's as if we define ourselves in terms o our baggage, and if we let go of the baggage, there'll be nothing left of us
Solobill Laville: Yes, that is almost exactly what Steve said earlier too
stevenaia Michinaga: aww, but there is the wisdom gained, thor
Thorberg Nordlicht: ye, i understnad better now; that *is* what steve seemed to be saying
Solobill Laville: Hi, Fayde!
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Fayde
Thorberg Nordlicht: join us
Pia Iger: Hi, Fayde, welcome
stevenaia Michinaga: try a pillow Fayde
Solobill Laville: There may be wisdom gained, but I would always be wary of "gaining" anything
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((right-click a cushion and select "sit here"))
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps gained may not be the correct word in this case
stevenaia Michinaga: accumulated knowledge
Solobill Laville: OK :)
stevenaia Michinaga: where did Fayde go?
Solobill Laville: I think he had problems sitting
Thorberg Nordlicht: guess we lost Fayde
Solobill Laville: SL - easy to fly, hard to sit!
Thorberg Nordlicht: well folks, it's getting late and I'll have to be going, now
stevenaia Michinaga: well, I must go too
Solobill Laville: TY, all
stevenaia Michinaga: are you keeping the log Pia?
Thorberg Nordlicht: I'll send he transcript off to Pema
Pia Iger: Thor is the host
Solobill Laville: Do you know to use the wiki Thor?
Thorberg Nordlicht: so we can read our brilliant insights in the blog :)
Pia Iger: Thor, we are trying out wiki.
stevenaia Michinaga: did you do it last night Pia?
Solobill Laville: ah, yes, groundbreaking!
Thorberg Nordlicht: no, i haven't used the wiki yet
Pia Iger: not yet, Steve
Thorberg Nordlicht: anybodywantto fil me in? I've been busy in RL and perhaps haven't been keeping up
stevenaia Michinaga: aww, ok, am enjoying reading them more and more
Solobill Laville: I had the same feeling 24 hours ago, Thor, btw...
Solobill Laville: Fael, put instructions on the wiki on how to post your logs
Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
stevenaia Michinaga: it;s easier, even I can edit
Thorberg Nordlicht: ok, i'll snoop around and figure it out; thank
Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Meeting_Log_Posting_Tutorial
stevenaia Michinaga: night all
Solobill Laville: there it is...
Thorberg Nordlicht: got it; thanks Solobill
Thorberg Nordlicht: really have to leave now
Solobill Laville: 'night
Pia Iger: bye, Steve.
Thorberg Nordlicht: good converation
Pia Iger: bye, Thor. a good leader
Solobill Laville: Agreed