2008.07.14 19:00 - the bells and the birds and the fading light

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    Thorberg Nordlicht here. I'm Guardian tonight. (This is my first time posting to the new wiki. I've got to post and run. I'll be back later to tidy up.)

    doug Sosa: hello thorberg.
    doug Sosa: i love the bells and the birds and the fading light.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ah, thanks for the reminder; I didn't have my speakers on; yes, i agree; very nice
    doug Sosa: this time of evening (here it blends in withoutside sounds so i can't tell which is which, and the light is almost the same
    Pia Iger: Hi, Doug, Thor
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Pia; welcome; have a seat
    doug Sosa: i don't see any bow gesture.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: doug was just commenting on the sound and light in SL this time of the evening
    Pia Iger: sorry, Doug, almost step on you.
    Pia Iger: oh?
    doug Sosa: i wouldn't need to say ouch.
    Pia Iger: :)
    Pia Iger: you know you can change the lighting under Wolrd> Enviorment settings.
    doug Sosa: it would feel like reaching up and pulling the sun to a new position.
    doug Sosa: nice to let it do what it wants.
    Pia Iger: we could do it in SL:)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, and i make use of that when i need th light for building (or checkin' out a nice lookin' avatar), but usually I end up going back to the default for the SL time of day
    Pia Iger: so you two like to be natural, not forcing.
    doug Sosa: when those avatars almost step on you, well, its just not the same.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, for me it makes the virtual environment more... uh... "real" (if that can make any sense)
    doug Sosa: yes. i trat it as though it is, let it be a real place with real experience.
    doug Sosa: "treat"
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i'm often very surprised by things like SL sunsets and the way light reflects off the water
    Thorberg Nordlicht: not the same as RL, of course, but a surprising degree of "richness" for a virtual environment
    doug Sosa: since i don't understand the contruction process i juat let it be, in amazement.
    Pia Iger: in RL, cities, we don't feel sunset at all, hiding in the buildings.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: simple "construction" is surprisingly easy in SL; we can go to a sandbox and "play" some time if you like
    doug Sosa: well, i remember in my childhood in ny being amazed by the late afternoon reflection of the sun off the glass in so many directions.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: although there are plenty of things to do in SL, so I'm sure you can have a long and interesting Second Life without ever building anything
    doug Sosa: I would love that Thorberg.
    Pia Iger: I've not built anything yet.
    doug Sosa: maybe with both join up.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: you may not be aware, but there are "sandbox sims" -- entire sims -- where you can build stuff
    doug Sosa: "we both"
    Thorberg Nordlicht: also, there's a Zen Retreat sandbox, somewhere close by, i think
    Pia Iger: We also have sandbox in our PaB land.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ah, yes, a PasB sandbox
    doug Sosa: I think i now have the "privelage" of building here and would love to do a little hut and garden.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: maybe for us, that's a better -- more private -- place to go
    doug Sosa: could we make a time for next week?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: not to change the subject, but anyone been practicing the 9-second moment" meditation? anything to share?
    doug Sosa: good leadership!
    Pia Iger: :)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
    doug Sosa: Since learning how to do it, it blends into my normal life which becomes more nine second periods than we expected.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hey there Steve!
    doug Sosa: bow
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Thorberg Nordlicht: welcome
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
    Pia Iger: doug, you need to type / before bow.
    doug Sosa: pia how did you do that bow?
    doug Sosa: ah!
    doug Sosa: /bow
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((wonder what happens if I "bow" sitting down))
    doug Sosa: /bow
    Pia Iger: doug, try again.
    stevenaia Michinaga: rezzing
    doug Sosa: only my head seems to bow
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((that works))
    doug Sosa: /bow
    Pia Iger: weird. You are not bowing like us, Doug.
    doug Sosa: /bow
    doug Sosa: nope, like i need some yoga
    Pia Iger: you are nodding.
    doug Sosa: but then do you see my /bow letters? I don't see yours.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: I'm seeing another avatar has joined us, but hasn't rezzed, yet; no name ballon above their head; hello stranger
    doug Sosa: this is worth a nine second observation of total incompetence.
    stevenaia Michinaga: brb, cats nails need clipping
    doug Sosa: my bowingthat is.
    Pia Iger: Doug, can you open your gesture folder, see if bow is active?
    doug Sosa: ha!
    stevenaia Michinaga: back, very mellow cat
    doug Sosa: skillful claw cutting!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: years of petting and several miles of scratches on my arm
    doug Sosa: back to the 9 sec.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: I've drifted away from my meditation practice this week; just too immersed in Real Life
    doug Sosa: i like to treat real life like a yoga posture. The other night..
    doug Sosa: i was strating a cold and said to my partner, and she smiled,..
    doug Sosa: that it was so intresting watching my reactions body and mind..
    doug Sosa: as the bacteria were momentarily winning.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: felling any better, now?
    doug Sosa: yes, i won.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: *feeling
    Thorberg Nordlicht: good!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: I wonder if the bacteria are sentient; do they know they "lost" :)
    doug Sosa: won and feeling good, but now my back is sore because i went down to the river to trim some branches that wer overgrown, and listened on my Ipod to a novel about trapsing through the jungle in vietnam.
    doug Sosa: I felt like I was in African Queen, dripping with sweat and confronted with huge indeterminate tangles.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yikes! "jungle" "Viet Nam"; heavy stuff
    stevenaia Michinaga: pain is not much different from getting sick
    doug Sosa: and, nine seconds, both very interesting, what they do to our cosmology.
    Pia Iger: not clear to me, what is the "both"?
    doug Sosa: sick and pain from clearing brnaches at the edge of the river.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Solo
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Solobill
    Pia Iger: Hello, Solo
    Solobill Laville: Hello, all!
    doug Sosa: As I cleared I could walk along a branch to cut others, with aa hand saw, or one of those curved saws at the end of a fifteen foot pole.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: so, Steve, how's you Catholic friend, the one with the "I should have known better" problem; that was *you* talking about her last week, right? been thinking about her all week
    doug Sosa: bell means bye, dinner ready.
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Doug
    Thorberg Nordlicht: thanks for stopping by, doug
    stevenaia Michinaga: We speak intermittantly.. could be weeks or months, that was one conversation we had after 18 months of little conversation of substance
    Solobill Laville: Is this a "guilt" issue with her, Steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: bigtime
    Thorberg Nordlicht: been thinking about her "problem"; that's a classic dilemma in Christianity and buddhism... holding our "past self" responsible for something
    stevenaia Michinaga: on the other side my jewish wife went to a catholic girls high school, so you might say I have a bit of experience with guilt
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, guilt of a past self .. an interesting concept
    Pia Iger: Quilt may be an attachment that's very hard for us to detach.   <<< very funny&clever, Pia -- Thorberg
    Solobill Laville: That is an interesing point, especially in regards to Buddhist converts for Christian backgrounds
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((assume you meant "guilt", but I like "quilt" too))
    Solobill Laville: replacing guilt with Karma
    Solobill Laville: I love quilts!
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Pia Iger: Yes. Thor.
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you for that correction, thought Quilt was a member here from time to time
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hmm, "guilt as attachment" and "replacing guilt with Karma"; now it's getting interesting
    Solobill Laville: Oh, I have definately worked on letting go of guilt in my personal practice
    Solobill Laville: Effectively, for the most part, I must say
    Solobill Laville: ;)
    stevenaia Michinaga: or letting go of guilt of the past so so is no longer relivant except as something to learn from
    stevenaia Michinaga: forgiving yourself
    Solobill Laville: yes!
    Solobill Laville: Oh, that is a huge one for me...
    Thorberg Nordlicht: seems to be the heart of the dilemma is the absurdity of holding our past self responsible for knowing something there was no way to know at the time
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be for many people
    Thorberg Nordlicht: consider a simpler case: I'm about to leave to go somewhere and I ask myself "what am I forgetting?"
    Thorberg Nordlicht: if I knew the answer, then I wouldn't be forgetting it! :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: learning from it does not mean keeping it as part of your life weighing you down
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: RIght, but of learning, and just learning, and then letting the learning go
    Solobill Laville: that too is important
    stevenaia Michinaga: ever say, "I won;t do that again"
    stevenaia Michinaga: ever wonder why?
    Solobill Laville: I say, "note to self..."
    stevenaia Michinaga: you jsut moved on
    stevenaia Michinaga: you choose what it applies to, and what it doesn;t
    Solobill Laville: "Don't loan out your wife's tile saw again..."
    Solobill Laville: And I haven't
    Solobill Laville: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: why? it never came back?
    Solobill Laville: Yeah, pretty much
    stevenaia Michinaga: or not yours to loan?
    Solobill Laville: Actually, it was her sister's...
    stevenaia Michinaga: or, next time ask first
    Solobill Laville: you see my error
    stevenaia Michinaga: so never loan out sister's tile saw
    Solobill Laville: Rule # 478 of marital bliss
    Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you sister-in-law sets tile, she could snap you in two
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: if my wife didn't kill me first....
    Solobill Laville: anyway, it gets back to guilt, in a way
    stevenaia Michinaga: dead and snaped in two..
    Solobill Laville: If the snappin' in two didn't kill ya, bein' dead will!
    Solobill Laville: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: so a lessoned learn, what guilt are you holding that you can't let go of?
    stevenaia Michinaga: that's the issue here
    Thorberg Nordlicht: amusing, but i've kind of lost the thread; is the point that you "should have known better than to loan, etc.", but "seemed like the right thing to do at th time"?
    Solobill Laville: on that, nothing, that would perhaps be more regret
    Solobill Laville: The issue was not taking into account another's feelings
    Pia Iger: yes, Thor, the reason we can let it go, cause we think we should have known better.
    Solobill Laville: And only trying to help someone else
    Pia Iger: *can't
    stevenaia Michinaga: we were talking about past guilt that we carry with us, here is an example of guilt that we left behind and learned from without changing the past
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Solobill Laville: but i can both let the guilt go and not make the cause of the guilt occur again
    Solobill Laville: that is not necessarily easy
    Solobill Laville: practice, practice
    Thorberg Nordlicht: for me, I have to remind myself that in fact I did what seemed like the right thig at the time based on what I knew then; and then as you suggest just "let it go"
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: *thing
    Solobill Laville: that's a good example, Thor
    stevenaia Michinaga: but why can you live and learn from some things and not from others, carrying the guilt with you instead?
    Solobill Laville: It's different for everyone, i think Steve
    Solobill Laville: for me
    Solobill Laville: i get to deeper and deeper levels of things the more i sit
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'm just asking, looking for examples
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Solobill Laville: I have had many instances of what Thor was talking about my past
    Solobill Laville: behaving disrespectfully to someone close, for example
    Solobill Laville: and though it was since past (15 - 20 years in this case)
    Solobill Laville: I still carried it with me
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, loss is also a great learning experience
    Solobill Laville: One of my biggest challenges is forgiving myself
    Solobill Laville: for things that I was unable to realize at the time
    Solobill Laville: Not fair seemingly, is it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes it's NOT doing something that weighs heavily on me, so now I act more
    Thorberg Nordlicht: not fair to "yourself" you mean?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, that was my meaning, but i meant generally to all of us
    Solobill Laville: We force ourselves to carry that baggage
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i agree, applies to all of us
    Pia Iger: 'fair" is a tricky word.
    Solobill Laville: Indeed, Pia
    stevenaia Michinaga: baggage can define us as well as be the tools of change
    Solobill Laville: I agree Steve
    Solobill Laville: Can I tell a brief story to reinfirce this idea?
    Pia Iger: pls
    stevenaia Michinaga: please
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes; please do
    Solobill Laville: Two monks, sworn to celebacy, were walking down a forested mountain path
    Solobill Laville: They came to a churning river
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((just thinking about that very story))
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: At the river's edge there was a beautiful woman
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((go on; sorry to intrrupt))
    Solobill Laville: She was distraught as she was afraid to cross by herse;f
    Solobill Laville: The older monk said, "Please allow me to carry you across"
    Solobill Laville: She accepted, and he lifted her and carrier her across on his shoulders
    Solobill Laville: Later, after monks had left the river far behind
    Solobill Laville: the younger said, "we are sworn to celebacy, how could you touch that woman?"
    Solobill Laville: The older one said
    Solobill Laville: "I carried her for only a short time. You are still carrying her. Put her down and let her go">
    Solobill Laville: Is that the one, Thor?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: very appropriate example (and retelling) thanks
    Pia Iger: (heard this story before, too)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, that's the one, but you told it much better than i would have; thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: I didn't, thanks
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: a deeper Zen analysis would of course point out that there's really no "self" to even carry the baggage (or guilt), but as soon as we immerse in the notion of a "self", the baggage comes along with it
    Thorberg Nordlicht: to drop the baggage, first drop the "self"
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: the older/wiser monk had already "moved on" while the youger mnk was still back by the rivr
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks Thor
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am understanding dropping self a bit better
    Thorberg Nordlicht: seems I can't type very well tonight
    stevenaia Michinaga: my fault, it;s contagious
    Thorberg Nordlicht: the "past self" we're so eager to hold accountable for past actions doesn't even exist
    stevenaia Michinaga: it's called stevenaia-esque typing.. and you got it
    Pia Iger: It makes sense, Thor. though not easy to understand.
    Pia Iger: to me, the consequences of not letting go can be severe.
    Pia Iger: there are so many tragedies due to ppl not letting go
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you let them
    Solobill Laville: I think the practice of letting go - of guilt, anger, thoughts - can be rungs of the ladder to ultimately letting go of the self
    Solobill Laville: But that is a great and very deep fear for most of us, especially us for the individualized West
    stevenaia Michinaga: you mean loosing what you let go of?
    Solobill Laville: As in "losing" the self?
    Solobill Laville: I prefer "letting go"
    Solobill Laville: But it would be the same I guess, yes
    Solobill Laville: Losing assumes you have something to lose, which I think is a cause of the fear
    Solobill Laville: But if there is nothing there, what is to lose?
    stevenaia Michinaga: you never loose the experience
    Solobill Laville: THat is ture
    Solobill Laville: let me try again, that is true
    Thorberg Nordlicht: it's as if we define ourselves in terms o our baggage, and if we let go of the baggage, there'll be nothing left of us
    Solobill Laville: Yes, that is almost exactly what Steve said earlier too
    stevenaia Michinaga: aww, but there is the wisdom gained, thor
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ye, i understnad better now; that *is* what steve seemed to be saying
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Fayde!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Fayde
    Thorberg Nordlicht: join us
    Pia Iger: Hi, Fayde, welcome
    stevenaia Michinaga: try a pillow Fayde
    Solobill Laville: There may be wisdom gained, but I would always be wary of "gaining" anything
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((right-click a cushion and select "sit here"))
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps gained may not be the correct word in this case
    stevenaia Michinaga: accumulated knowledge
    Solobill Laville: OK :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: where did Fayde go?
    Solobill Laville: I think he had problems sitting
    Thorberg Nordlicht: guess we lost Fayde
    Solobill Laville: SL - easy to fly, hard to sit!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: well folks, it's getting late and I'll have to be going, now
    stevenaia Michinaga: well, I must go too
    Solobill Laville: TY, all
    stevenaia Michinaga: are you keeping the log Pia?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: I'll send he transcript off to Pema
    Pia Iger: Thor is the host
    Solobill Laville: Do you know to use the wiki Thor?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: so we can read our brilliant insights in the blog :)
    Pia Iger: Thor, we are trying out wiki.
    stevenaia Michinaga: did you do it last night Pia?
    Solobill Laville: ah, yes, groundbreaking!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: no, i haven't used the wiki yet
    Pia Iger: not yet, Steve
    Thorberg Nordlicht: anybodywantto fil me in? I've been busy in RL and perhaps haven't been keeping up
    stevenaia Michinaga: aww, ok, am enjoying reading them more and more
    Solobill Laville: I had the same feeling 24 hours ago, Thor, btw...
    Solobill Laville: Fael, put instructions on the wiki on how to post your logs
    Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s easier, even I can edit
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ok, i'll snoop around and figure it out; thank
    Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Meeting_Log_Posting_Tutorial
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Solobill Laville: there it is...
    Thorberg Nordlicht: got it; thanks Solobill
    Thorberg Nordlicht: really have to leave now
    Solobill Laville: 'night
    Pia Iger: bye, Steve.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: good converation
    Pia Iger: bye, Thor. a good leader
    Solobill Laville: Agreed

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