2008.07.15 01:00 - Challenging Environments

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    That night I met Fael and Bert at the pavilion.

    Pema Pera: Good something!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Pema Pera: night I guess for Bert?
    Pema Pera: Morning for Fael?
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Pema, yes, it’s night here
    Faenik: ah :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: We had a bit … “disturbed” meeting last night.
    Pema Pera: yes?
    Pema Pera: I what way?
    Fael Illyar: somehow the focus kept breaking up.
    Pema Pera: That was Thorberg’s shift?
    Fael Illyar: ah, no, Stims
    Pema Pera: ah yes, of course
    Pema Pera: hard to count the days at the other side of the date line, from where I am :)
    Pema Pera: Stim is pretty focused normally :>)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: not stims fault :)
    Pema Pera: ah, your evening!
    Pema Pera: SLT evening was Thorberg
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Pema Pera: k
    Pema Pera: we were both right then
    Pema Pera: for different reasons
    Pema Pera: very PaB :)
    Fael Illyar: I tried bringing up the hidden assumptions topic when no-one apparently had a topic after 15 minutes (I arrived late)
    Pema Pera: hidden assumptions is central
    Pema Pera: the handpuppet is a story about hidden assumptions
    Pema Pera: the hand is hidden
    Fael Illyar: somehow whenever people started talking, it was everyone at once
    Pema Pera: how large was the group?
    Fael Illyar: 9 I think
    Fael Illyar: ok, not everyone, a few stayed silent.
    Faenik: なるほど^^

    I brought up the idea of having not all 28 meetings a week being equal, something I seem to do once a month or so :).

    Pema Pera: one solution is to have two kinds of meetings, smaller ones where everyone talks, larger ones where you have either one speaker, like a lecture, or two or three speakers, like a dialouge or small panel
    Pema Pera: and then half an hour could be used for the one, or two or three, people, and half an hour for general comments
    Fael Illyar: Usually people don’t talk that actively. Even in bigger meetings.
    Fael Illyar: I wonder if I managed to touch something with the topic
    Pema Pera: Well, shall we talk about it now?
    Pema Pera: where you in that meeting, Bert?
    Bertrum Quan: No, I would like to hear both of your thoughts on the topic.
    Fael Illyar: ok :)
    Pema Pera: wanna start, Fael?
    Pema Pera: unhiding hidden assumptions :)
    Fael Illyar: I find I notice where people are going off the path by looking for certain hidden assumptions.
    Pema Pera: can you say more?
    Fael Illyar: wel, if I’ll pull in the other thread too, “is being like X?” has the assumption that Being is like something.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Pema Pera: YES!
    Fael Illyar: I tend to look for these in my own lines too.
    Fael Illyar: sometimes I have talk about something to realize where I’m going wrong. Because it seems I can’t pick these off that easily from the wordless thought mode I usually use.
    Pema Pera: exactly!

    Ah, the chore of writing something after a 9-sec exploration!

    Pema Pera: that is precisely why I recommend writing down SOMETHING every 15 minutes
    Pema Pera: I know it sounds silly
    Pema Pera: I suspect that very few people actually do it
    Fael Illyar: I haven’t been doing it for weeks. :)
    Pema Pera: with Adams the most visible example of doing it
    Fael Illyar: oh… month
    Pema Pera: even just doing it ten times a day
    Pema Pera: makes a big difference
    Pema Pera: and if you can write SOMETHING down for, say, 15 hours a day, 60 times
    Pema Pera: you will be amazed by the effect
    Pema Pera: 60 times a day a truth serum
    Pema Pera: a lithmus test
    Pema Pera: a check up
    Pema Pera: the moment of truth
    Pema Pera: WHAT do you write
    Pema Pera: of course you can write “—”
    Pema Pera: or “nothing”
    Pema Pera: or “don’t wanna write”
    Pema Pera: or “whatever”
    Fael Illyar: so that’s behind writing “nothing” even if you don’t figure out something?
    Pema Pera: but write SOMETHING
    Pema Pera: ah, continuity, Fael
    Faenik loves wells!
    Pema Pera: if you get into the habit of writing SOMETHING
    Pema Pera: even the word “nothing” which is also something
    Pema Pera: then you can continue
    Pema Pera: and your quest will go somewhere
    Pema Pera: you’ll be surprised
    Fael Illyar: I guess I might notice the falseness of “nothing” if I actually did have something.
    Pema Pera: for example, yes
    Bertrum Quan: Quest?
    Pema Pera: trying to see reality
    Fael Illyar: but I don’t have a Quest :)
    Pema Pera: or simply to see
    Faenik loves wells!
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: words are tricky
    Pema Pera: in some ways it is definitely not a quest
    Pema Pera: it is beyond words
    Pema Pera: and in some ways it is
    Pema Pera: because it cannot be caught into words
    Pema Pera: we can only talk about shadows
    Pema Pera: depending on the situation I throw different shadows, different descriptions

    Bertrum had put a question mark behind the word quest, as indeed one should!

    Pema Pera: Being cannot be pinned down as “not a quest” or “a quest” — we always have to give the context of what we mean
    Fael Illyar: I just had a thought about it not being expressable in words. When expressed in words, we break it up.
    Fael Illyar: but if it’s broken up enough many times in enough many ways, you can start noticing the way to put it back together.
    Pema Pera: yes, that is a nice approach
    Pema Pera: different shadows, like tomography
    Pema Pera: each shadow of tomography is 2D
    Pema Pera: but you can reconstruct the 3D object that threw the shadows
    Pema Pera: Bert, what do you think?
    Bertrum Quan: The 9 second tax for me produces only a few words.
    Bertrum Quan: Words like—Okay. Yes, Nope.
    Bertrum Quan: I’m trying to just chnage the flow of the constant press of events,
    Faenik: ah :)
    Bertrum Quan: change
    Bertrum Quan: So, when I do write it down. It’s generally a single word.
    Pema Pera: that’s perfectly fine
    Pema Pera: for me it depends
    Pema Pera: sometimes one word, sometimes more
    Pema Pera: I tend to write a paragraph or so, more like a diary or journal, typically once an hour — and what I write at the 15 minute mark I force to keep in one line
    Pema Pera: if it grows beyond one line, I reformulate it to one line at most, easy to do on a word processor
    Pema Pera: I like the brevity
    Pema Pera: but shall we come back to quest or no quest?
    Pema Pera: Bert, do you see your exploration as a quest?
    Fael Illyar: I just noticed that using “a” or “the” with Being just feels off.
    Pema Pera: yes
    Fael Illyar: it’s adding a hidden assumption there :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: we *have* assumptions
    Pema Pera: hidden or not
    Bertrum Quan: Well, perhaps. Writing the words that I just conveyed suggests I’m evaluatiing success or failure on some level…
    Pema Pera: so drop what you “have* and sooner or later assumptions are dropped too

    The question of what quest means . . .

    Pema Pera: ah, but evaluation and quest do not have to go together I think
    Pema Pera: do like all words, quest can be used in different ways
    Pema Pera: Evaluation doesn’t work for what we do
    Fael Illyar: Ah, Bert is looking for hidden assumptions in his text now :)
    Pema Pera: our “quest” which is not a quest you could also say, goes beyond evaluation
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fael Illyar: this “beyond something” phrase is starting to bug me :P
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, but I guess, I’m unable to break free of the assumption or goal
    Fael Illyar: no reason to hurry with that.
    Pema Pera: bug in what way?
    Fael Illyar: just being aware of it is enough
    Pema Pera: perhaps it is not a matter of “breaking free”, Bert
    Pema Pera: more like “seeing through”
    Bertrum Quan: Yes. I agree
    Pema Pera: and then laughing about, perhaps
    Pema Pera: the more effort you apply the harder it is
    Pema Pera: or seems
    Fael Illyar: I’m having rather hard time putting anything to words about what bugs me about “beyond something”.
    Pema Pera: we tend to think in pairs
    Pema Pera: dichotomies
    Pema Pera: polarities
    Pema Pera: either this or that
    Fael Illyar: ah, yes, it creates a seeming duality.
    Pema Pera: and we can stay stuck for a long time in any given pair
    Pema Pera: until we suddenly say AHA there is a third option
    Pema Pera: “beyond” the pair
    Pema Pera: or outside
    Faenik: ah :)
    Bertrum Quan: Back to the 9 second tax…
    Fael Illyar: or not beyond the pair? :)
    Bertrum Quan: a question…
    Pema Pera: beyond the two-way choice beyond the poles
    Pema Pera: yes, Bert?
    Bertrum Quan: I’ve tried these exercises in meeting, etc. I already had pad and paper out anyway. Certainly is the most challenging environment.
    Pema Pera: great!
    Faenik: ah :)
    Bertrum Quan: But here’s my question to you. In that kind of environment, you are most drive to focus on the reality of the “agenda” let’s set–and inorganic agenda.
    Bertrum Quan: The mind really resists the 9 second tax–9 second of relaxation.
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I’ve noticed :)
    Bertrum Quan: Is this a productive approach…

    A fascinating question: in busy and somewhat pressurized environments: drop PaB for a while or somehow find a way to do it at least in some approximate way or other?

    Pema Pera: how about reflecting on the resistance? Not resisting the resistance but watching it?
    Bertrum Quan: Lot of typos above– driven “agaenda” let’s say, an inorganic
    Bertrum Quan: How does one do that? reflecting on the resistance?
    Pema Pera: IF you get into the habit of writing something — even ” — ” if you have nothing to write THEN you can find yourself writing “resistance” or “huge resistance” or “don’t want to right” or “bah!” or “damn!!!”
    Pema Pera: but at least you write something
    Pema Pera: and if I am correct — to be determined by trying — if you keep writing something will open up
    Pema Pera: you will really see deeper into reality
    Bertrum Quan: I do write something—basically saying whether taking the deep breath worked–or I achieve a momentary time-free zone,
    Bertrum Quan: Most of the time is truthfully doesn’t work…
    Bertrum Quan: it
    Pema Pera: what does “doesn’t work” mean for you, Bert?
    Bertrum Quan: It mean I continued with the flow of the fake river
    Pema Pera: so you have specific expectations about what “doing PaB” could be or should be?
    Pema Pera: (please continue your thought)
    Bertrum Quan: What I mean by fake is the current of this layer imposed upon life.
    Pema Pera: aha! but perhaps WATCHING the fake river is part of bathing in the true river!
    Pema Pera: perhaps that is ALL there is to it
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, there’s some truth to that too… But for me that recognition seems intellectual
    Pema Pera: may I come back to Fael’s hidden assumption?
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, it is relevent to this…
    Pema Pera: and combine it with my favorite notion of subtraction?
    Pema Pera: So the way I see it is that there are two roads to insight
    Pema Pera: the relative one, of addition
    Pema Pera: the absolute one, of subtraction
    Pema Pera: when we learn a new skill, a new language say, or to play a musical instrument
    Pema Pera: we add a skill
    Pema Pera: and we know what we have to add
    Faenik: indeed?
    Pema Pera: it is pretty clear: words, grammar, note playing
    Pema Pera: of course there is also “sense” and “feeling” but that is draped about the ingredients that you can see
    Pema Pera: and there are well defined ways to go about it
    Pema Pera: teaching systems
    Pema Pera: like a recipe:
    Pema Pera: add this, add that
    Pema Pera: Now, the path of subtraction really SHOULD be much easier
    Pema Pera: IF you can see what you need to subtract
    Pema Pera: alas, the hidden assumptions is what you need to subtract
    Pema Pera: and since they seem to be hidden, the path of subtraction seems to be more difficult
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: so paradoxically it is much easier to drop ballast than to learn a new skill
    Pema Pera: but because we can see how to do the difficult skill learning
    Pema Pera: and we can’t see how to do the easy letting go of ballast
    Pema Pera: we call the path of subtraction difficult or impossible
    Pema Pera: So yes, hidden assumptions is what seems to make PaB hard :)
    Pema Pera: Being ununderstandable
    Pema Pera: but fortunately Play can help a bit
    Pema Pera: while we are running around playing we sometimes forget to completely hide our assumptions
    Pema Pera: like underwear showing occasionally when playing wildly
    Pema Pera: our hidden assumptions show . . . .
    Pema Pera: and we can make progress in subtraction :)
    Bertrum Quan: I agree the task is substraction.
    Bertrum Quan: It’s hard for me but you asked the question about PaB expectations.
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, PaB has exceeded my expectations.
    Pema Pera: I’m very glad to hear that, Bert!
    Pema Pera: fear is okay, but fear of fear is not, unnecessary and an addition
    Pema Pera: frustration is okay, but frustration about being frustrated is unnecessary and an addition.
    Pema Pera: seeing that means abstraction is really easy — you smile and wonder why the heck you ever added such nonsense
    Bertrum Quan: Yes. I’m not frustrated by the process. I’m grateful for the opportunity to try…
    Pema Pera: And I’m grateful for you both and everyone in our group trying together
    Pema Pera: it makes a big difference
    Pema Pera: the support and the continuity

    Time for me to leave.

    Pema Pera: alas, the hour is up and I have to go soon
    Pema Pera: Fael, did you address some of your hidden assumptions questions?
    Pema Pera: you > we
    Faenik: why not?
    Pema Pera: yes, Faenik :)
    Fael Illyar: I don’t think I had a question. That came up originally when I was trying to answer something that I can no longer remember :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: well, nice talking with you both, thank you for coming here!
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Pema :)
    Pema Pera: oh hi Quilty!
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Pema
    Bertrum Quan: Thank you Pema, Take care.
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Pema Pera: hadn’t notice you at all
    Pema Pera: and hi Giuann!
    Quilty Bookmite: I didn’t want to interrupt you.
    Giuann Hax: bye Pema
    Giuann Hax: :)
    Fael Illyar: Oh, right, Hi Quilty, Giuann.
    Giuann Hax: hi there
    Pema Pera: I should sweep my camera more often :)
    Pema Pera: normally it is very quiet this time of day
    Fael Illyar was on phone for 10 minutes so was rather quiet for then end.
    Quilty Bookmite: You might have broke your train of thought then.
    Pema Pera: Have you been here before Giuann?
    Quilty Bookmite: I’m on holiday this week.
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, I mean vacation. :-)
    Pema Pera: my trains run in many directions, it’s more like a railroad yard :)
    Giuann Hax: mm i don’t think so…i’m not on sl from lots of time
    Giuann Hax: but it’s very nice…very peaceful
    Pema Pera: Fael and Quilty, can you tell Giuann what we are doing here?
    Pema Pera: briefly?
    Fael Illyar: sure :)
    Pema Pera: thank you!
    Quilty Bookmite: I can try. :-)
    Pema Pera: It’s 6 pm here
    Pema Pera: dinner time
    Quilty Bookmite: Bon apetite
    Pema Pera: see you, and feel free to come back here Giuann, any time you like!
    Pema Pera: merci beaucoup!
    Giuann Hax: thanks a lot!
    Giuann Hax: see you!
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Fael Illyar: Bye :)
    Fael Illyar: This is a Play as Being meeting. http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/

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