2008.07.16 07:00 - Listening to Understand

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    Hi, this is Cal - I was the guardian for this session and the comments are mine. 

    Hello's and settling in:

    Fael Illyar: Hi Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: hey you guys :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: hi Caledonia
    Caledonia Heron: rezzing slowly
    Gaya Ethaniel: nice to meet you :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, nice to meet you too
    Caledonia Heron: hello Joseph
    joseph Ruhig: Hello, Caledonia!
    joseph Ruhig: First time here?
    Caledonia Heron: no :)
    Caledonia Heron: you?
    joseph Ruhig: also no
    joseph Ruhig: :-)
    Fael Illyar: Cal is today's guardian :)
    joseph Ruhig: Who here practices zazen?
    Caledonia Heron: I do not Joseph but perhaps the others do
    joseph Ruhig: ok. This was only curiosity
    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hi Adams :)
    Caledonia Heron: hey Adams :)
    joseph Ruhig: Grustig, Adams!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Everyone :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, all
    Gaya Ethaniel: hi Maxine, think it's first time we've met - nice meeting you :)
    Caledonia Heron: hi Maxine :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine
    Adams Rubble: Hello Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, Gaya, nice to meet you as well
    joseph Ruhig: Maxine! We spoke in the past. I remember your name.
    Maxine Walden: hello, Joseph, yes, nice to see you again
    joseph Ruhig: :-)
    Adams Rubble: Joseph, nice to meet you
    joseph Ruhig: Nice to meet you too, Rubble-san
    joseph Ruhig: Pema comes today?
    Caledonia Heron: our group keeps growing, I am a bit behind meeting everyone it seems
    Fael Illyar: Probably not to this meeting.
    joseph Ruhig: Do we have some specific theme to discuss?
    Caledonia Heron: well, typically we discuss our experiences with the 9sec experiment
    Adams Rubble: Yesterday Maxine was talking about a discussion of cimmunication
    Caledonia Heron: have you been conducting the inquiry Joseph?
    Gaya Ethaniel: may i suggest something?
    Adams Rubble: communication
    Faenik: ????^^
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, always :)
    joseph Ruhig: no

    Multi-thread texting gets a little tricky to navigate for a bit:

    Caledonia Heron: lol, no no suggestion or no, no 9sec? :)
    Caledonia Heron: oops, gone in a flash
    Adams Rubble is confused
    Gaya Ethaniel: me too
    Gaya Ethaniel: am happy either way
    Caledonia Heron: go ahead Gaya, what is your suggestion?
    Fael Illyar as well. Perhaps he's only interested in Pema then.

    Now to Gaya's suggestion:

    Gaya Ethaniel: false patience and bitter endurance
    Caledonia Heron: I'm sorry? what do you mean?
    Gaya Ethaniel: how one can waste in the power of knowing what is possible
    Maxine Walden: please say a bit more, Gaya...
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe an example can help?
    Caledonia Heron: ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: i have a child very badly behaving
    Gaya Ethaniel: how far do i endure? do i tell myself i should & feel guilty if i fail?
    Gaya Ethaniel: because i know it should be possible to be patient
    Gaya Ethaniel: am i making sense here?
    Adams Rubble: It depends on whether we are responsible for the child, I think
    Caledonia Heron: yes, but are you a parent? are we really talking about parenting? because this is a no-brainer imo
    Adams Rubble: ditto Cal
    Maxine Walden: Or is there a point at which you as the adult feel that the compassionate thing to do is limit the behavior of the child so that he/she can begin to learn to limit him/herself
    Gaya Ethaniel: no Caledonia it's a simple analogy to say
    Faenik: ????^^
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, "guilt" and "should" are irrelevant here. In this case there is only actions and consequences.
    Fael Illyar: you can choose the consequences with your actions.
    Adams Rubble: If I am the parent then I must be patient and correct
    Adams Rubble: If I am not the parent then I must just be patient
    Adams Rubble: and maybe go away
    Gaya Ethaniel: i don't think i mean this in the context of parenting more in spiritual living
    Adams Rubble: :)

    Let's try it from another direction:

    Adams Rubble: Can you try another analogy?
    Gaya Ethaniel: bad child is an simple example
    Fael Illyar: is this bad child behaving badly towards others or towards you?
    Caledonia Heron: ok Gaya -
    Gaya Ethaniel: is finding it difficult to come up with another example as the group seems not to understand what she's trying to convey...
    Maxine Walden: or perhaps an inner child within oneself
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Maxine
    Gaya Ethaniel: that's a good one
    Maxine Walden: ah, could you say a bit more, then?
    Caledonia Heron: I get the example but am trying to figure out how it fits in with our exploration of the nature of reality within the 9sec experiment
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok don't think it fits with 9sec experiment sorry
    Fael Illyar: it doesn't necessarily have to :)
    Adams Rubble: I think that's OK Gaya
    Faenik loves wells!
    Caledonia Heron: no worries, maybe me not getting it...
    Fael Illyar: I think it does fit the general theme we're talking about here.
    Gaya Ethaniel: it's ok shall we then go back to 9sec?
    Adams Rubble: Please go on Gaya
    Caledonia Heron: let's circle back and complete the point you were trying to make Gaya
    Caledonia Heron: and then we'll proceed - how about that?
    Fael Illyar: false patience and bitter endurance sounds to me like having an attachment and not accepting something but still forcing oneself to not act.
    Gaya Ethaniel: i was curious whether you have similar experience

    We all try to get on the same page yet something is not clicking and the person in my chair thinks it's me:

    Caledonia Heron: is "false patience and bitter endurance" a phrase from something?
    Fael Illyar: the first thing Gaya said
    Caledonia Heron: yes, I get that Fael :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: no it's something i heard in relation to guilt and how to deal with past etc
    Caledonia Heron: sorry, I think I am running in a different current of the river today :)
    Fael Illyar: Cal, I'm not quite sure what we're talking about but I'm trying to explore if I can find out.
    Caledonia Heron: ok, go for it
    Maxine Walden: if you mean that sometimes I have an inner stubborn child that I may be impatient with or compassionate with..impatience or patience with oneself...I know about that, if that is close to what you are asking, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: possibly it's because i'm not explaning myself well sorry about that Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Maxine could we talk about that a little if you are happy to share your opinion on it?
    Maxine Walden: my patience or impatience with aspects of myself?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes is that ok?
    Gaya Ethaniel: 'myself'
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Maxine Walden: yes...let's see, you may be asking about how we can be compassionate with the entrenched stubborn 'want it my way' little child that can come out when the adult is fatigued, preoccupied, or pressured...
    [7:20]  Maxine Walden: but it feels like since this is your question it would be better to hear your concern more clearly

    Gaya bravely sticks with it:

    Gaya Ethaniel: ok let me think before i talk
    Gaya Ethaniel: there is a person i don't get long
    Gaya Ethaniel: *along
    Gaya Ethaniel: i know i should be understanding and compassionate
    Gaya Ethaniel: so i feel guilty when i feel annoyed
    Gaya Ethaniel: where to draw line? do i see a point in dealing with this person and trying to be compassionate?
    Gaya Ethaniel: is it a good practice?
    Gaya Ethaniel: why do i feel guilty anyway?
    Gaya Ethaniel: when i'm compassionate & trying - am i enduring bitterly because in fact i don't see a point?
    Maxine Walden: it may be useful to know what annoys you about that person, what agitates you. That would be informing to you and may bring more genuine understanding
    Adams Rubble thinks about some guilt she is working on
    Adams Rubble: Yes Maxine
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, that feeling of guilt is about an illusion you've painted in your mind.
    [This is a wonderful nugget right below - CH]
    Maxine Walden: in my experience, just trying so smooth things over and say 'it is ok' does not respectfully address what the conflict is about; trying to look conflict/annoyance in the eye may be more respectful to all parties
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes once i find out what irritates me, do i still go on? is there a choice in that? or seeing it resolve the whole thing?
    Gaya Ethaniel: i agree Maxine
    Fael Illyar: annoyance is usually related to attachment somehow I think.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adams Rubble: If I may say one thing on the guilt part
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes pls go ahead Adams
    Adams Rubble: We try different things
    Maxine Walden: perhaps once the reason for the annoyance is realized then there is choice to think about what you wish to do, where you wish to go, whether you wish to hold on to the annoyance
    Adams Rubble: and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't
    Maxine Walden: sorry, Adams, just finishing a thought
    Adams Rubble: when they don't work we need to move on
    Adams Rubble: sorry Maxine, I didn;t realize you weren;t finished
    Gaya Ethaniel: not to feel guilty when we do move on?
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Adams Rubble: try try again :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: and realise there is a choice to do so
    Maxine Walden: not guilty at all, moving on by choice is not abandoning it is doing something via thought
    Gaya Ethaniel: is reflecting on what's been said...
    Fael Illyar: a thought is not something to feel guilty about, would you feel guilty about a cloud that is floating in the sky?
    Maxine Walden: nice analogy, Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: when u said Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: trying different things, could you expand a bit on it?
    Fael Illyar: You see the cloud and then you forget it. That's how to deal with thoughts too.
    Adams Rubble: I don't know the situation you are dealing with but
    Adams Rubble: we react differently to situations
    Adams Rubble: often we have to make a snap judgment
    Adams Rubble: sometimes we find the right behavior and sometimes not
    Adams Rubble: we then apply what we know and
    Adams Rubble: decide whether that was what we consider the best course
    Maxine Walden: Dear friends, RL is tugging at me, so I will have to go and hope not to disturb the conversation by just disappearing...
    Adams Rubble: if not, we try to correct and not dwell on our mistake
    Adams Rubble: bye Maxine
    Caledonia Heron: bye Maxine :)
    Fael Illyar: I find the word "judgement" there sound a bit off. choice would be better.
    Faenik: ????^^
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: understand think it's a good way to do it Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: it's always good to talk things through a bit with others before acting on it
    Fael Illyar: it's a choice you have to make. No reason to include judging in the process. (well, that's a possible way to interpret the original sentence)
    Adams Rubble: yes, and sometimes after too :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Fael and it's difficult :)
    Fael Illyar: if you find you're listing reasons to do this or that in your mind when deciding, you're biasing your decision with words.
    Gaya Ethaniel: thanks for your time, time to go now. I'm happy that I've finally met Caledonia & Maxine in person. Hope to see you all again soon. Nice day
    Caledonia Heron: nice to meet you Gaya :)

    Lots of energy moving around, people leaving, things are a bit unsettled:

    Fael Illyar: Ok, this meeting is evaporating fast.
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Fael Illyar: Adams, was that "judging" in your sentence there to simply mean choice or really judging?
    Adams Rubble: Oh my, she elft
    Adams Rubble: lleft
    Caledonia Heron: lefft :)
    Adams Rubble: no, choice is fine
    Adams Rubble: just looking for words :)
    Fael Illyar: I hope we didn't drive her away.
    Adams Rubble: I doubt that but it is funny she left
    Adams Rubble: Yes, lots of leaving today
    Caledonia Heron: lol, we could leave too and make it unanimous :)
    Adams Rubble: haha

    Sometimes you're "in the pocket" and sometimes you're not....  I spent most of the time Gaya was with us listening so I could get what she was talking about:

    Caledonia Heron: I have to say I spent the time listening because I wasn't really getting the line of inquiry
    Caledonia Heron: so you are watching me in the process of choosing to be patient and listen or say what I'm thinking off the cuff
    Adams Rubble: You were great Cal!
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Adams Rubble: I think she got what she wanted
    Caledonia Heron: ? maybe, I don't know but it was challenging to wade through my ideas and be respectfully present
    Caledonia Heron: I thought Maxine's comment about whether it is better to be quietyly patient or respectuflly outspoken kind of summed it up for me
    Caledonia Heron: again, I just didn't get the question.....I am out of sync today I think
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: I had problems as well :)
    Fael Illyar: I dobut it's just you :)

    PaB sometimes seems as much about how to communicate as it does about the actual exploration.  All the participants try to mesh and communicate about abstract, difficult-to-express concepts with very limited knowledge of each other's context.  It can be hit or miss sometimes.

    Caledonia Heron: this situation goes to time spent getting to know one another and trying to jump into the conversation with someone who to me anyway is new and not quite meshing....
    Adams Rubble: yes exactly
    Fael Illyar: Language barrier :)
    Fael Illyar: She's korean
    Caledonia Heron: we know each other a little bit and so have references about how to speak to one another
    Fael Illyar: korean
    Caledonia Heron: so subtle
    Adams Rubble: I am not sure that ws it Fael, maybe
    Adams Rubble: I am just getting to know people
    Fael Illyar: the first sentences in her explanation were rather close to Japanese thinking patterns. (Korean is similar I heard)
    Caledonia Heron: me too Adams
    Caledonia Heron: I wondered, that's why I asked about the phrasing
    Adams Rubble: Ah, OK Fael, then that was it
    Caledonia Heron: ok, well, I can learn something there, I will tune my radar :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)

    And what about this....when I realized I was just now adding PaB guardians to my friends list I was really surprised.  It's been 3.5 months!!  Mea culpa...if we're not friends...send me an invite :) :

    Caledonia Heron: as much time as I have spent talking with this group I am just now adding people to my friends list - I couldn't believe I wasn't friends with everyone, particularly those of us here from the start
    Fael Illyar: I've been slowly adding people too.
    Adams Rubble: Yes me too
    Fael Illyar: Makes for easier time interacting when you see when people come online or drop offline :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, plus when situations arise, it's far easier than "search" :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, a lot easier :)
    Adams Rubble: yes, that too :)
    Fael Illyar: although I've been picking guardians by opening the playasbeing group IM tab and clicking open the list of people who're on the list.
    Adams Rubble is thinking that Storm and Fael did a nice job with the lights
    Adams Rubble: could you eplain Fael?
    Caledonia Heron: good point Fael, multiple ways to approach it
    Caledonia Heron: I like the lights too :)
    Fael Illyar: Storm just added one invisible ball of light in the center of this table since he couldn't do anything to the lights surrounding us
    Fael Illyar: the outer lights still need some weaning.
    Adams Rubble: ah. thanks but I meant the picking guardians
    Fael Illyar: outside the pavilion the lighting is still bad.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: only Dakini can fix the outer ones
    Adams Rubble: Ah OK I understand
    Caledonia Heron: Adams, you can go to the group, select info, select members and see who's listed
    Adams Rubble had an insight
    Caledonia Heron: what is it Adams?
    Fael Illyar: Ah, I've been using the group IM tab where you can chat with the whole group
    Caledonia Heron: lol, multiple ways :)
    Fael Illyar: there's a blue button with << on it close to the upper right.
    Fael Illyar: that will open a list of people who will hear text typed in there
    Adams Rubble tries it out and sees that it works and says "ah"
    Adams Rubble: thanks :)
    Fael Illyar: only shows online people too :)
    Caledonia Heron: looking...
    Caledonia Heron: ahh, very nice
    Adams Rubble notices there are some people there she hasn't met yet
    Caledonia Heron: thanks Fael

    We're amazed by all the people in the PaB group:

    Caledonia Heron: there are a bunch of people I haven't met
    Caledonia Heron: maybe we should have a social :)
    Adams Rubble: Maybe I should have a barbecue :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Caledonia Heron: fun :)
    Adams Rubble: I wonder if we could fit everyone on the plot
    Fael Illyar: your plot? probably :)
    Adams Rubble: If they all stood
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: "only" 31 members :P
    Caledonia Heron: I think I know maybe 10
    Caledonia Heron: or 15
    Fael Illyar: There are names in the list I haven't seen myself yet.
    Adams Rubble: There are many of us who are fairly new
    Caledonia Heron: gosh, amazing...it seems you attend frequently Fael and you may know us all :)
    Fael Illyar: No, most of the ones I haven't seen are ones who've been there since I became guardian.
    Adams Rubble: Yes me too

    And we marvel at sl time compression and online relativity:

    Caledonia Heron: the group have been active since april 1 I believe so, truly, we are all new :)
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I have to keep remembering that Cal :)
    Adams Rubble: Everything seemed so established when I first showed up
    Caledonia Heron: and in fact, we're making it up as we go :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: Pema is pretty good at getting thinsg rolling :)
    Adams Rubble: yes :)
    Adams Rubble: very good
    Fael Illyar: and willing to spend time at it. Rather impressive actually.
    Caledonia Heron: lol, scarily good
    Adams Rubble: :0
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, a deep commitment
    Faenik loves wells!
    Caledonia Heron: which I see from those of us I know "well", ...."well" being qualified because due to sl time compression it seems like we've known each other a realllly long time but it's been a matter of months
    Fael Illyar: Although I had to tell him "Do, don't ask" about adding things to the wiki today in email :P
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Caledonia Heron: trying to be inclusive perhaps :)
    Adams Rubble: yes the time compression. I keep wondering about that
    Caledonia Heron: online relativity :)
    Fael Illyar: he was thinking of a page as mine :) Maybe I should think of him as a leader :P
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: So much happens if one spends a day in SL
    Caledonia Heron: yes, time bends doesn't it?
    Adams Rubble: amazing thing
    Caledonia Heron: which is so perfect in light of the 9sec :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: see we did get to the topic Cal (or you did) :)
    Caledonia Heron: LOL
    Caledonia Heron: really had to circle (wide circle) back to get there :)
    Adams Rubble: :)

    How some listen and how some force listening:

    Caledonia Heron: that's how I was not meshing previously.....maybe walking a different circle
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I guess we had more than one person trying to start the conversation today.
    Caledonia Heron: :) funny though, it's all the same conversation.....glad I chose listening
    Adams Rubble: sorry, back
    Fael Illyar: Listening often works better if there are others who're already speaking :)
    Caledonia Heron: lol, sure Fael
    Caledonia Heron: but asynchronous text is so indulgent :)
    Adams Rubble thinks listening might be a good topic someday
    Fael Illyar: perhaps :)
    Fael Illyar: Strangely, that's related to Caspian too. He doesn't seem to listen much.
    Adams Rubble: Sometimes people are weighing their words while typing and we think they are done
    Adams Rubble shudders at fael's thought
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, interesting that, about forced teaching as contrasted with sharing ideas
    Caledonia Heron: Caspian was very courteous when I met him
    Caledonia Heron: I have not experienced interactions similar to yours
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

    We talk about communication a bit more and whether we are in a dialog or a class:

    Adams Rubble: It's funny that Gaya's original topic sounded likeshe was talking about yesterday
    Fael Illyar: I get the feeling he's a bit clumsy in his interactions with people. Some of us know how to balance for that, some don't.
    Adams Rubble: false patience and bitter endurance
    Caledonia Heron: hmm, Adams, I wondered if it was a phrase brought from somewhere
    Fael Illyar: yes, it's related strangely :)
    Faenik: could be
    Caledonia Heron: I'm glad you guys were here to help understand it :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: Fael, I don't think yesterday was clumsy
    Caledonia Heron: I have to admit, I didn't get it
    Fael Illyar: I read the log of what happened with Caspian yesterday. I found myself starting to ignore Caspian's lines.
    Adams Rubble: I think it was a deliberate attempt to huijack the discussion
    Fael Illyar: jumping over them
    Caledonia Heron: you mean repeatedly offering metaphors?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, a bit of mischief there
    Adams Rubble: It was very uncomfortable to be there
    Caledonia Heron: bummer
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: The only thing that bothers me about the quotes is that they don't feel like caspian speaking. They feel like him playing records of other people speaking.
    Caledonia Heron: maybe it's considered some type of technique to force certain conclusions
    Fael Illyar: if I was there, I'd want to speak with Caspian, not long dead Zen Masters
    Caledonia Heron: LOL
    Adams Rubble: I tried to engage
    Caledonia Heron: well, it's good he's learning the litany if that's his goal but from my perspective that's not what's going on here
    Fael Illyar: yes?
    Adams Rubble: It may be a question of whether that's what we want
    Caledonia Heron: indeed Adams
    Caledonia Heron: From my understanding this is not a "class" in a discipline but rather a discussion of what we experience as related to exploring the nature of reality
    Adams Rubble: well put Cal :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, exactly.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Caledonia Heron: I think that's where I got derailed with Gaya's question....it seemed with a "teaching", a "discipline", which is "other" to me
    Caledonia Heron: I'm such a goober
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: I see your point
    Caledonia Heron: lol, that I'm a goober? well, thanks Adams, I appreciate that ...LOL
    Adams Rubble: I think sometimes we need to unfold though
    Faenik loves wells!
    Adams Rubble: Oh my
    Caledonia Heron: kidding, kidding :)
    Adams Rubble: oh my
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: ... at least try to not react surprised with other people agreeing with you :)
    Adams Rubble: I will have to note which statement I am referring to
    Caledonia Heron: that's where text fails me...my wicked sense of satire really depends on voice :)
    Fael Illyar: ???????

    As many things as we have shared at PaB, we are still getting to know one another:

    Adams Rubble: One thing about geting to know people, it is easier when we are in a smaller group
    Caledonia Heron: Asian characters Fael...translate please?
    Caledonia Heron: yes Adams, and a bit of history or sense of each other :)
    Fael Illyar: I was talking to someone howering over our heads
    Fael Illyar: uh, hovering
    Fael Illyar: he fled
    Caledonia Heron: oh, ok Fael, did not see them
    Adams Rubble: They must have been potent words :)
    Fael Illyar: he had a tag over his head saying "I am speak Japanese only"
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: He said it in two ways :)
    Adams Rubble is picturing many tags over her head for eachh of the languages she does nto speak
    Caledonia Heron: hopefully this meta-conversation about our conversation will translate in the good spirit it was shared between us (please come again Gaya) :)
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: that would be a lot of tags for me to wear :)
    Adams Rubble: me too :)
    Adams Rubble: me not am speaking Russian
    Caledonia Heron: me not am speaking .......gosh, too many!!!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: I have to go y'all
    Adams Rubble: It has been a nice session. bye Cal :)
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, it was, thank you guys


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