2008.07.18 07:00 - Being, Loathing, Confusion and our Relationships with Avatars

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    Adams Rubble was the guardian and the comments are hers. When I arrived Fael and Gaya were already there but for some reason I did not see or hear Fael. Maybe it is a metaphor for my search for Being. There are so many themes it has been difficult to chooose a title

    Fael and Gaya were already taking about clothing

    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: hi Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hi Gaya :)
    Adams Rubble: I see you have on your other costume. It is very pretty. Is it Korean?
    Gaya Ethaniel: nice dress Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes thank you :)
    Adams Rubble: thank you Gaya
    Faenik: �る��^^
    Fael Illyar: I guess white doesn't really work with this
    Adams Rubble: Hi Fael, Were you here all the time?
    Gaya Ethaniel: no it doesnt Fael
    Fael Illyar: yep :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: kinda harsh on eyes :)
    Adams Rubble: I didn't see you
    Gaya Ethaniel sees Fael all the time in SL
    Adams Rubble: I think it is very nice Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: ? what is?
    Adams Rubble: your dress
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)))
    Fael Illyar: ah, whiter version too :)
    Adams Rubble: Fael, that is a nice outfit you have on too
    Adams Rubble: I have terrible lag
    Gaya Ethaniel: though it doesn't respond well with sitting (see it going through below) and kneeling makes me look inappropiate lol
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: that white one ok

    Gaya begins the conversation with an observation about Being, and Jesus or Buddha

    Gaya Ethaniel: i had a thought on 'Being' today
    Adams Rubble: Yes Gaya
    Fael Illyar: yes?
    Faenik: indeed?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I used to think 'Jesus' is created
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe he's Being?
    Adams Rubble: Gaya, I have been playing with that a bit and it isn't working for me so far :)
    Adams Rubble: But that might very well be me
    Adams Rubble: I can't make it work to help me understand
    Gaya Ethaniel: kind of hit me but i'm afarid it won't make sense to explain in words - Fael?
    Fael Illyar: if it's something you can explain in words, it's most likely wrong :)
    Adams Rubble: although I have been working more with the concept of God than Jesus
    Gaya Ethaniel: it could be 'Buddha' too
    Gaya Ethaniel: God - 'Source'
    Faenik: why not?
    Fael Illyar: Buddha is not a person or an entity.
    Adams Rubble: Stim and Pema both told me that the creator God is not part of Being
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't mean God here though
    Fael Illyar: Buddha is the state of mind Buddhists are striving for
    Adams Rubble: You are referring tro Jesus specifically Gaya
    Adams Rubble: to
    Adams Rubble: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: no... here it goes again may i think and type in a bit?
    Adams Rubble: OK

    While we wait for Gaya to collect her thoughts Fael looks around the pavilion

    Fael Illyar: I guess we're the only ones here this meeting then
    Adams Rubble: More may come yet
    Fael Illyar: possible :)
    Adams Rubble: :)

    And Gaya clarifies what she is thinking and we begin to misunderstand each other

    Gaya Ethaniel: Jesus, Buddha, enlightened beings are 'representation' of Being - I don't mean 'God' so far 'God' seems to me something bigger
    Adams Rubble: I find that interesting but I am not equipped to answer since I don't understand Being yet
    Adams Rubble: It would be a good question to pose to Pema or Stim
    Adams Rubble: Have you met Stim yet?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes only once - so what do you think about Being so far then Adams?
    Adams Rubble: Well I struggle with it in my log :)
    Adams Rubble: but from what I have heard, struggling is not going to do it
    Adams Rubble: so I have to be patient and wait :)
    Adams Rubble: and listen
    Fael Illyar: yes, giving up struggling will :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: for Fael do you think 'state of mind' is Being?
    Adams Rubble: Steve told an interesting account last night
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Adams Rubble waits for Fael's reply
    Fael Illyar: no, Being is not state of mind
    Gaya Ethaniel: i was reading what you said before
    Gaya Ethaniel: Buddha is a 'state of mind' buddhists are striving for
    Fael Illyar: that 'state of mind' is misleading but .... it's the closest term I can think of
    Gaya Ethaniel: so is it correct to understand that Buddha is not Being to you then?
    Fael Illyar: more like Buddha is someone who is one with Being or something like that.
    Adams Rubble thinks about that
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes that's what i meant when i said Jesus = Being :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: of course I should have thought that Jesus is also physical entity
    Adams Rubble: Sometimes we are agreeing when we don't know it
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's easy here
    Fael Illyar: we think we disagree while we actually agree
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes :)
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adams Rubble thinks "all the time"
    Gaya Ethaniel feels the same as Adams
    Adams Rubble: Gaya, I have been looking for a very large Being, like God
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: Fael's experience seems to be more personal
    Adams Rubble: but Fael is here
    Adams Rubble looks at Fael
    Fael Illyar: it's not small or large :)
    Adams Rubble: no but your experience
    Fael Illyar: don't look at me :P I don't know what it is :P
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: I just sometimes know what it isn't :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: when you said you're looking for 'God' what do you mean by 'God' here? do you mean it in terms of a 'creator'?
    Adams Rubble: Gaya, do you know about Pia's experience with the water
    Gaya Ethaniel: no pls go ahead
    Faenik: could be
    Adams Rubble: She was rinsing dishes and when the cool water fell on her hands she realized that was Being
    Adams Rubble: and Pema said "yes"
    Adams Rubble: Steve last night told Pia that he also had a water experience
    Adams Rubble: but he was underwater
    Gaya Ethaniel cringes at the thought of being underwater
    Adams Rubble: and then he popped his head out of the water he knew it was Being
    Adams Rubble: underneath was murky and he couldn't see
    Adams Rubble: Up top he could see everything clearly
    Adams Rubble: It will be in the 1900 log for July 17
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok one sec - btw i understand more about Pia's experience than Stim not because I don't like water
    Adams Rubble has taking to recount other people's experience
    Adams Rubble: taken
    Adams Rubble: taking?
    Gaya Ethaniel appreciates Adams recounting
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel is reading the entry
    Adams Rubble knows there is something wrong with that sentence
    Gaya Ethaniel looks at what's been said in SL at the same time
    Fael Illyar: Pema likes to say Being is beyond Dualism.

    Fael and Gaya begin to look at the Wiki for the session at 19 00 Friday night

    Adams Rubble is afraid to look because she will crash
    Adams Rubble looks at her feet
    Gaya Ethaniel realises she read this already but somehow it starts to mean something different again
    Adams Rubble: Ah, he said that he told Thor the other night
    Adams Rubble looks at the sky
    Gaya Ethaniel: do you have a modified client? Fael recommended me one today that crashes less
    Adams Rubble: I have had trouble getting it loaded
    Fael Illyar: which one?
    Gaya Ethaniel: what did he (Stim) said to Thor (who's this?)?
    Adams Rubble: all of them. haha
    Adams Rubble: It was in an earlier session Gaya
    Adams Rubble: of them
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://nicholaz-beresford.blogspot.com/ this one Fael
    Faenik: �る��^^
    Gaya Ethaniel finds it too difficult to read/absorb the blog fast enough to come back to PaB session and give up for now
    Adams Rubble: yes it is hard to do both
    Adams Rubble: Faenik can talk while Fael reads
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes in this case but i've also learnt that the other day from Dakini & Solo to be present I need to be able to do 'multitasking'
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So... just to go back
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it's a big step to be able to do something else while loathing yourself :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: when you said 'God' you are referring to the 'cold water drop'?
    Fael Illyar: you can then use the something else to do something about the loathing
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fael - not funny...
    Fael Illyar: Not funny, no, but a positive thing.

    Now I am a bit confused and make it worse for all by thinking that Fael had made the statement that Gaya made in conecting God with Pia's cold water metaphor. It is begiining to look a Shakespeare play in which all the characters misspeak and misunderstand each other: God, water drops, loathing...chaos reigns

    Adams Rubble wonders what she missed
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes works along the same line as 'multitasking'
    Gaya Ethaniel: ??
    Fael Illyar: Yes, if you can do more than one thing at a time, one of those can be watching yourself.
    Fael Illyar: that's awareness I think
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: if i can be / hope to be being aware with awareness i may feel the Being
    Gaya Ethaniel: 'feel'
    Fael Illyar: perhaps
    Adams Rubble still doesn't understand what is happening
    Adams Rubble: what is a water drop?
    Gaya Ethaniel feels 'self loathing' coming up again
    Fael Illyar: water drop?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pia's experience
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Gaya Ethaniel: I want to know first 'God' by Adams is 'water drop'
    Adams Rubble: Fael, and you think that has something to do with God?
    Fael Illyar: umm... my turn to be confused
    Adams Rubble: I think the water drop is awareness
    Adams Rubble: I don't see God there
    Faenik: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes me neither i just need clarification god can mean so many things
    Gaya Ethaniel: well at least to me
    Adams Rubble: It would be a stretch but it could be done :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: could you tell me what god you mean then Adams?
    Adams Rubble: I was referring to a statement Fael made
    Adams Rubble: or question of Fael's
    Gaya Ethaniel scrolls again
    Adams Rubble: I wouldn't approach a discussion about God with these two water accounts :)
    Fael Illyar: ... still confused :P
    Adams Rubble: I think they are Being metaphors
    Adams Rubble: Please tell me Fael
    Fael Illyar: I must've missed something as I don't see how water drops and God relate

    I look back at the log and see my mistake but confuse Gaya more

    Gaya Ethaniel wonders what 'water accounts' are
    Adams Rubble: Ah, I goofed
    Faenik: why not?
    Adams Rubble: It was Gaya's statement when I thought it was Fael's. It was tucked in between two of Fael's statments
    Adams Rubble: hehe Faenik
    Gaya Ethaniel siliently descends into the world of confusion
    Adams Rubble: This where the typed word is inferior to real voice speak :)
    Adams Rubble: haha. Now Gaya
    Adams Rubble: Please tell me gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes can i stop scrolling back and stay here?
    Adams Rubble: OK, sorry :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: cool let's leave behind what's been said and let's continue :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes what do you want to know?
    Adams Rubble: Well I think the other part of the convesation between Fael and you seems personal and we can leave that
    Adams Rubble: It was the sequence that confused me
    Adams Rubble: and then I confused both of you
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh you mean self loathing bit?
    Adams Rubble: but we focus on the present
    Gaya Ethaniel: sorry
    Adams Rubble: and let the old thoughts drift away like clouds :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods

    We mutually agree that whatever point we were trying to make is not worth the effort to try to understand each other. I recall Doug's comment at a previous afternoon session in whcih he told Gaya that she should look for the "accuser" when we are feeling guilty

    Adams Rubble: loathing is a strong word
    Gaya Ethaniel: i was doing self-loathing not looking
    Gaya Ethaniel does loath herself sometimes
    Adams Rubble: Being critical of yourself?
    Gaya Ethaniel: no loathing
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: Loathing is like hating
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes exactly right
    Gaya Ethaniel: i've acquired some tools not to do it anyway shall we go back to other stuff?
    Adams Rubble: It is good you were here for the session with Doug
    Adams Rubble: Yes, of course
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes that was the session
    Gaya Ethaniel: and i realised it's all kind of related
    Adams Rubble: I have been trying to see that too
    Adams Rubble: See who my accuser is
    Adams Rubble: I discussed that with my family over dinner
    Adams Rubble: and they were funny
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Adams Rubble: and came up with lots of accusers

    Fael brings up another aspect and sparks more discussion about accusers and accused. The topic interests all of us

    Fael Illyar: I just realized something important about self loathing. When you loathe yourself, it tends to be "I am". When you're critical it's "I was" or "I did"
    Adams Rubble: They finally concluded it was the squirrels who were doing the accusing :)
    Adams Rubble: yes Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: But it is a serous issue
    Adams Rubble: and I am looking at that part of myself
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: separating the accused from the accuser
    Gaya Ethaniel understands what Fael meant
    Fael Illyar: I guess this is related to the buddhist idea that every moment you're destroyed and born again.
    Adams Rubble: hmmm
    Fael Illyar: as in, you're not who you were a second ago
    Gaya Ethaniel: but Fael
    Adams Rubble: I see what they mean - I hadn't heard it put that way
    Adams Rubble: they
    Fael Illyar: yes, Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: even if one is doing 'I did' or 'I was' it can still be loathing - am i making sense?
    Fael Illyar: the "I did" and "I was" in that case would be false and have the meanings of "I did and will do" or "I was and will be"
    Gaya Ethaniel: I managed to separate accused from accuser yesterday by seeing a victim
    Adams Rubble: yes?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fael - i'm still not sure whether I understand...
    Fael Illyar: self loathing requires that you associate those accusations with "now" somehow.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Victim? I've never seen victim in me before yesterday. I always fought with this 'accuser' and I was the victim
    Gaya Ethaniel: well and the accuser and all
    Adams Rubble: Yes but it is not YOU who is the accuser
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fael I get it
    Adams Rubble: There is nothing in you to loath
    Adams Rubble: The "I AM" that Pema talks about
    Fael Illyar: you're associating yourself with the story and loathing the story. Break the association and there is nothing to loathe.
    Adams Rubble: The accusing is going on on a different level
    Adams Rubble: yes Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Adams that was what i experienced yesterday :)
    Fael Illyar: However, you can't break the association by adding thoughts
    Fael Illyar: only by removing them
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Fael Illyar: so if you currently have thought "I'm bad", adding a though "I'm good" won't help
    Adams Rubble has learned that here
    Adams Rubble: yes Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel learns many things here all the time
    Fael Illyar: the "I'm bad" thought needs to be let go. For that, there is a need to accept that the thought exists.
    Fael Illyar: and that it's there.
    Fael Illyar: then it'll fade away
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: it's important to realize that is different from agreeing with the thought.
    Fael Illyar: it's like accepting a messsage and telling the messenger, yes I read it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: i can see what i've been doing wrong
    Adams Rubble: or seeing that it can be done differently
    Gaya Ethaniel: i should realise that i'm accepting the existence of the thoughts not accepting the thoughts
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: but it seems that realising the existence is not enough to make it fade away
    Adams Rubble: it takes some time
    Gaya Ethaniel: some change from that seeing has to take place i feel
    Adams Rubble: maybe something else from somebody else's expereince will come along which will be a bter tool
    Adams Rubble: better
    Adams Rubble: You and I and fael and Maxine all learned about Doug's tool at the same time
    Gaya Ethaniel comes here for the tools
    Adams Rubble: Yes, we LOVE tools
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: yes, at the moment you're aware of the existence of the thought but you're trying your hardest to keep it away, correct?
    Gaya Ethaniel: i learnt yesterday that i'm a tool
    Adams Rubble: I think Pema said that aBOUT THE TOOLS :)
    Adams Rubble: NO NO Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: what did he say?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Adams Rubble: You no tool
    Adams Rubble: You Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes i can teach myself something
    Gaya Ethaniel: so a tool?
    Adams Rubble: use a tool
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes i use myself as a tool?

    oH no, I can't help myself. I was doing well and go and bring up my blog in which I playfully engage in discourse with my avatar. I had just completed writing it before the session. Fael and Gaya start to read and look up once in a while to eye me strangely, moving further away from me on their cushions

    Adams Rubble: Do you mean your AV?
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: myself or "my self"?
    Gaya Ethaniel: me... AV and me RL my experience etc
    Adams Rubble: hmmm
    Adams Rubble: OK, maybe I can see that
    Gaya Ethaniel: i was always looking others to provide me ex Buddha
    Gaya Ethaniel: ex. Buddhism sorry
    Adams Rubble: I had a long discussion with my RL person on my blog today
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Adams Rubble: who sees me as a tool
    Adams Rubble thinks uh uh now they'll read it
    Fael Illyar found the discussion amusing in some ways.
    Gaya Ethaniel is already on Adams blog
    Fael Illyar: I alraedy read i t :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: why Fael?
    Adams Rubble: amusing or some?

    Fael and I have another misunderstanding

    Fael Illyar: I get the feeling trying to kill off Adams would be very costly by now.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: haha
    Gaya Ethaniel is resiting to read the blog and comes back to PaB
    Adams Rubble realizes Fael is talking about clothes
    Fael Illyar: Yes, "clothes"
    Adams Rubble has an argment now
    Fael Illyar: it's kind of amusing seeing two pieces clothing being angry at each other :)
    Adams Rubble: argument
    Fael Illyar: oh, right, argument
    Adams Rubble: Two pieces of clothing?
    Fael Illyar: I guess I read your line a bit wrong?
    Adams Rubble: I was referring to your expensive
    Fael Illyar remembers Pema referring to wearing self like clothes, not like skin.
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Adams Rubble: very interesting addition to the discussion
    Adams Rubble doesn't think they thought about that at all
    Adams Rubble: Well the hours is up and we seem to have reached a stopping point
    Adams Rubble: so if all are agreed, I will stop log here
    Gaya Ethaniel: are the two pieces of clothing refer to inner thoughts?
    Fael Illyar: the two selves
    Adams Rubble: uh oh
    Gaya Ethaniel: i get it
    Fael Illyar: Adams vs the RL self
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks that Adams broke 30 min observance
    Adams Rubble: two personalities

    And we clear up a misunderstanding of Gaya's who thinks I always leave after 30 minutes

    Adams Rubble: 30 min observance?
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Gaya Ethaniel: i thoght you allow yourself to spend 30 min only at PaB?
    Fael Illyar doesn't have even close to clear line on where her selves are.
    Fael Illyar: yes, at 1pm
    Fael Illyar: 7am and 7pm that doesn't seem to hold :)
    Adams Rubble: I am guardian this morning Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh so you're allow to indulge? :)
    Adams Rubble: I have things to do at 1:30 SLT
    Adams Rubble: I have to do
    Adams Rubble: inh RL
    Adams Rubble: so I come for the half hour then
    Adams Rubble: arther than not at all
    Adams Rubble: rather
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: some people here thought you were doing some kind of practise when you said that
    Fael Illyar: Fael doesn't exist in my mind the way Adams does in yours.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: I can't even imagine how to have dialog with Fael
    Adams Rubble: My imagination runs away a bit more than yours Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel identify with Gaya in RL most of time excpet the body
    Fael Illyar: although, before starting PaB, I often was thinking there are more of "us" here than is clear.
    Gaya Ethaniel: now that reads a bit strange
    Gaya Ethaniel: ? what do you mean Fael
    Fael Illyar: now, somehow, I can't understand that anymore.

    Fael then clears up one of my misunderstandings

    Adams Rubble: I read somewhere recently (maybe in a chat log?) that we have the potential for over 100 separate characters in out brains
    Fael Illyar: I suppose it went with the remains of my habitual thinking in words
    Gaya Ethaniel: no way...
    Adams Rubble: I don;t remember the number
    Fael Illyar: 150 probably?
    Adams Rubble: more like it
    Gaya Ethaniel: how is that possible? i can only manage one.... :(
    Adams Rubble thinks she may have read more novels while Fael is readin technical literature?
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders about her brain
    Fael Illyar: 150 is the number of people we can know well enough to predict what they will do or say
    Faenik: �る��^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah
    Adams Rubble: Is that it Fael?
    Gaya Ethaniel: so capacity to understand how many people?
    Fael Illyar: Wouldn't surprise me that it can be used for different selves too
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: thought you meant i can act out 150 different characters
    Adams Rubble: Imaginary characters then reduces the number of people ne can know then :)
    Adams Rubble: one
    Fael Illyar: most likely :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: do you mean you can act out an character by understanding such?
    Adams Rubble: actors do
    Adams Rubble: Adams isn't completely an actor
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... i see what you mean now
    Adams Rubble: but Adams has some of her own personality
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble thinks and has less baggage!!!
    Fael Illyar: but had been slowly diverging but apparently merging again?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Adams Rubble: both
    Fael Illyar: ah, merging but diverging at once :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Adams Rubble: no like a pendulum
    Adams Rubble: no not that
    Gaya Ethaniel: what's that Adams?
    Adams Rubble: not evenly like a pendulum
    Gaya Ethaniel: swinging thing?
    Adams Rubble: oh pendulum?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Adams Rubble: Clocks used to have them
    Adams Rubble: long stick or string with weight on bottom
    Gaya Ethaniel: the swinging bit in clock right
    Adams Rubble: use gravity to help swing back and forth rhymatically
    Adams Rubble: yes Gaya
    Adams Rubble: in smaller clocks, completely mechanical
    Gaya Ethaniel: don't think we are doing quite what pendlum is doing here
    Adams Rubble: bigger pendulum's use gravity too
    Adams Rubble: Fael was referring to me and my RL self
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Fael Illyar: me, myself and I :P
    Adams Rubble: In small talk it can be Adams talking
    Gaya Ethaniel: thought Fael meant ou discussion is diverging and merging :)
    Adams Rubble: in big talk my RL self pushes me aside and takes over
    Adams Rubble: a bit rude sometimes :)
    Fael Illyar: finds that "rude" part amusing :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: i'm not yet aware of myself doing that all the time
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    While Fael and Gaya move further away, Adams begins an attempt to unionze avatars

    Adams Rubble: Think of it Fael and Gaya
    Adams Rubble: If your RL person wants to do something in RL
    Adams Rubble: They just bandon you whereever you are
    Adams Rubble: just lke that
    Adams Rubble: abandon
    Adams Rubble: then when they want to SL
    Fael Illyar can't make sense of the idea.
    Adams Rubble: they expect you to be ready to go

    But Fael and Gaya are not moved at all by my rhetoric

    Fael Illyar doesn't feel like there is something to be left behind.
    Adams Rubble: You have to get up and be all ready to walk or fly or tp
    Gaya Ethaniel: don't quite understand you Adams :(
    Adams Rubble: No "are you ready to get up now?"
    Adams Rubble doesn;t think she can unionize Fael and Gaya
    Fael Illyar: oh wait, now it's slowly dawning on me :)
    Fael Illyar: but ...
    Fael Illyar doesn't let clothes do the talking for her.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: Fael has more scientific mind
    Faenik: why not?

    Gaya gets up and dances and Cal joins us. Gaya and Fael begin a new discussion while I continue on about role playing

    Adams Rubble: clap
    Gaya Ethaniel: feel free to go Adams :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Cal :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Gaya Ethaniel: hi Caledonia
    Caledonia Heron: hola :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: comesta?
    Adams Rubble: Hi Cal
    Caledonia Heron: muy bien, y tu? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: buono bene grazie
    Fael Illyar: I might let my clothes give suggestions but I already know them before they're said so that's not necessary.
    Caledonia Heron: hey Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Hi Cal :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: you see it coming Fael?
    Fael Illyar: coming? the words?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes words or clothes
    Gaya Ethaniel: emerging is more like it
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's what wordless thinking is. You know in advance what you're going to think and won't have to.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm...i'd like to do that
    Gaya Ethaniel: one day soon :)
    Fael Illyar: ok, what color is the pillow your AV is sitting on?
    Adams Rubble: Don't take my role playing too seriously Gaya...it is a bit of playing
    Gaya Ethaniel: i don't know...
    Fael Illyar: you don't know or just can't find the word?
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks many people asks herself 'don't take it seriously' and wonder why
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes... not sure how to describe it
    Fael Illyar: but you know the color? that's wordless thought
    Gaya Ethaniel: i just see it :(
    Fael Illyar: yes, that's kind of what wordless thought is :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh is that what you mean?
    Fael Illyar: you just "see" it
    Fael Illyar: it's there, no need to translate it to words anymore. You know it
    Gaya Ethaniel: erk sorry Adams you can't leave unless we stop talking because u're guardian now?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes that's what i do most of times...
    Adams Rubble: Oh I can leave and you can atlk
    Gaya Ethaniel: but only if i focus on it... don't think i see this cushion or anything around me much
    Adams Rubble: Just the log stops
    Fael Illyar: I think Adams is staying because the talk is interesting, not because she feels she has to :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble thinks my RL person is keeping me here
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: BrB
    Gaya Ethaniel: k

    But then that theme loses momentum, stops, and then surpringly begins again. Fael and Gaya bring in their experience with languages

    Gaya Ethaniel: Fael - we talked before about wordless thought
    Fael Illyar: yes?
    Gaya Ethaniel: do you remember why we did? I can't
    Fael Illyar: no, not really.
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: i wonder whether i'm going around and around in circle
    Adams Rubble: back
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb
    Adams Rubble: Fael was making a reference to me
    Gaya Ethaniel: no... let me articulate this...
    Adams Rubble: Maybe I and the RL person talk too much :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: no no no not at all!
    Gaya Ethaniel: it seems that i do the 'wordless thoughts' on things around me visible stuff
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it's possible to do that with everything
    Gaya Ethaniel: but find it difficult to do same for 'internal stuff' ie clothes AV
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok so happens to everyone then
    Gaya Ethaniel: but some people will describe the colour
    Gaya Ethaniel: which makes sense
    Fael Illyar: It's supposed to come with meditation eventually if you do it right
    Gaya Ethaniel comes back to square 1 and smiles
    Fael Illyar: why did you say "I don't know" instead of describing?
    Gaya Ethaniel: because i didn't want to feel bad that i cannot describe exactly how i see it to you
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: ah, so you do see how words are inadequate :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: well... i had to when i had to start speak different language but not really before
    Fael Illyar: if you're good in a language, the problem is lesser but never goes away.
    Gaya Ethaniel: didn't really think about limit of language i used to think more about limit of my understanding
    Fael Illyar: if you use words to think, those are your limit
    Adams Rubble: My role play is a little bit like a metaphor for what I can't exactly put into words
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fael Illyar: There is more than one way of getting there. Always is.
    Gaya Ethaniel: guess the frustration of not being to communicate well brought forward the limit of language and how i don't have to worry about it much
    Gaya Ethaniel: there are?
    Fael Illyar: I think Buddha said something like 144,000 paths to truth.
    Fael Illyar: with 144000 not to be interpereted literally but to mean a huge number
    Adams Rubble: We can paint, write and play music, create plays...all to get at what we can't put into words
    Gaya Ethaniel: like all the different people i guess
    Fael Illyar: yes, there are as many paths as there are people.
    Fael Illyar: trying to follow someone else's path might get you somewhere but not all the way.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: 'just do it' hey

    We switch to life in SL; Cal joins in

    Gaya Ethaniel: i wonder one day that i feel that i don't need SL anymore for this
    Adams Rubble shudders
    Gaya Ethaniel: why shudders?
    Fael Illyar: needing and using are different things :)
    Adams Rubble: My RL person keeps talking of killing me off
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel: i'm hoping it comes naturally
    Adams Rubble: :0
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: There's no need to kill Adams in any case. She isn't really tied to SL, just thinks she is ;)
    Adams Rubble: Seriously I think SL is just the beginning
    Caledonia Heron: radical Adams :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, first gen
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe it's because i see SL at the moment for spiritual things but i believe i can use SL for many other purposes
    Faenik: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: huh Caledonia is here?
    Adams Rubble: Interesting point fael, I think you are right :)
    Gaya Ethaniel zooms out
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar laugh out loud.
    Caledonia Heron: sitting quietly :)
    Caledonia Heron: didn't mean to startle you :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Caledonia Heron: it took forever to rez
    Adams Rubble: I have had problems today too Cal
    Adams Rubble: It's sometimes good to sit still
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Caledonia Heron: yes, I thought I would listen, get the rythym
    Adams Rubble: I should have briefed you
    Adams Rubble: We have had a number of threads
    Caledonia Heron: no need, but thank you :)
    Adams Rubble: Some ended and some have gone on
    Caledonia Heron: yes, it would appear this is a continuation of sorts
    Adams Rubble: The references to me are that I had a dialogue with my RL person on my blog today
    Adams Rubble: I am hoping that Fael and Gaya no longer feel I need help :)
    Fael Illyar: I wasn't really thinking that at any point :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: :) well, we are here for you, whichever one of you would care for it :)
    Adams Rubble: Yes, all 6 of you :)
    Caledonia Heron: lol, at least!
    Fael Illyar isn't sure what number to to count for her.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: no kidding
    Gaya Ethaniel hasn't read the blog to attend PaB
    Fael Illyar: 0? 1? 2? 1,000,000?
    Caledonia Heron: the day you refer to your av as "i", you've crossed some line :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Adams Rubble: thanks Cal :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: or 3
    Fael Illyar: ç„¡
    Caledonia Heron: I think I may have done it but "I" am not sure
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: i'm curious what was the context?
    Adams Rubble: I think I have but my RL person still is aware of the difference
    Adams Rubble: context of what Gaya?
    Fael Illyar: difference? what difference?
    Gaya Ethaniel: how did you come about referring your AV as i?
    Caledonia Heron: mmm, not sure Gaya, just remember it raised a flag ....(I think Gaya is refering to self referenced avatars)
    Adams Rubble: Fael, that Adams is not the I in I AM
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: is the RL self?
    Adams Rubble: Yes is not :)

    Cal introduces two new words for us: augmentationist and immersionist and we discuss which we are

    Caledonia Heron: I have a lot of jobs in sl professionally so I am more of an augmentationist than an immersionist in sl
    Gaya Ethaniel: other than the obvious difference, names place and graphics - how it looks what would be the difference Adams?
    Caledonia Heron: so my identity is really closer to "I" than a lot of residents perhaps
    Gaya Ethaniel opens up online dictionary
    Fael Illyar: for me the biggest obstacle to exploring is being careful about others. I can be anonymous here if I so choose.
    Adams Rubble: There are advantages both ways Cal
    Caledonia Heron: for sure Adams...have you met my alt? :) [just kidding]
    Gaya Ethaniel: does augmentation mean summarisation?
    Adams Rubble loves to see the differences between English and American spellings
    Caledonia Heron: in the context of sl I take it to mean than sl is used to augment your online activities as compared to immersion where you do not care to reveal yourself and remain identified as your avatar
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Adams Rubble: When professional activities get mixed in, it can become a little awkward for the immersionist
    Caledonia Heron: yes, it's a sticky wicket sometimes :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: unless it is strictly SL profession
    Adams Rubble: but immersionist can get insights too
    Caledonia Heron: absolutely - advantages and insights available to both approaches
    Adams Rubble: yes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: when you say augmentation - do you mean your characteristsics become more visible?
    Adams Rubble: People who came to SL to do PaB seem to be closer to the real selves while those of us who wndered into PaB from SL seem to be more immersionist
    Caledonia Heron: yes Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel starts now pondering on understanding immersionist
    Caledonia Heron: augmentation in the sense it is something added on, a tool, Gaya
    Faenik: indeed?
    Gaya Ethaniel: not from your RL self - already there?
    Caledonia Heron: as contrasted with an av who comes inworld to be only the avatar or role they imagined up
    Adams Rubble: or got into a role while in SL
    Caledonia Heron: yep
    Adams Rubble: then wandered into PaB which is very honest
    Adams Rubble: and open
    Caledonia Heron: for sure, totally valid
    Gaya Ethaniel: sounds like same thing to me
    Gaya Ethaniel descends into the world of confusion again
    Caledonia Heron: it's subtle - one of the main ways you can tell is by whether people are willing to reveal who they really are while inworld
    Caledonia Heron: *people
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe it's just that i don't quite understand 'augmentation'
    Caledonia Heron: it's a 50cent word :)
    Adams Rubble: Let me try to explain if I may
    Caledonia Heron: please
    Gaya Ethaniel: puleeez
    Adams Rubble: Cal couldn't come into SL physcially
    Adams Rubble: she needed an AV
    Fael Illyar: I don't think I'm playing a role here.
    Adams Rubble: so she added on her AV (i.e. she augmented herself) added on
    Gaya Ethaniel: then
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Caledonia Heron: that's part of it I think
    Adams Rubble: she is here
    Fael Illyar: but on the other hand I'm immersionist in many ways.
    Caledonia Heron: I think the main element is transparency of identity
    Caledonia Heron: is your identity transparent to other residents
    Gaya Ethaniel: but one can be true to RL personality without revealing the details of what they do/re in RL?
    Caledonia Heron: in the real world sense or in the sense of how you represent yourself to others
    Adams Rubble: yes Gaya
    Adams Rubble: Fael said it
    Gaya Ethaniel: so... revealing identity Cal you mean revealing RL self being true?
    Adams Rubble: I purposely made Adams with a different personality to explore some of my own shgortcomings
    Adams Rubble: I made Adams with some of the baggage
    Caledonia Heron: yes Gaya, I think that is what most of us do here - be true to ourselves with a veil of anonymity
    Adams Rubble: without some of the baggage
    Adams Rubble: So Adams is freer
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, better to travel light :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... nothing to do with anonymuous
    Adams Rubble: but Fael doesn;t do that
    Adams Rubble: Yes but I am anonymous too :)
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adams Rubble: The role playing is me; the anonymous is my type
    Adams Rubble: the immersionist
    Gaya Ethaniel: sorry... i think i need to read when this is on blog to understand
    Caledonia Heron: sure Gaya...google it :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: i can't see the difference between the two :(
    Caledonia Heron: get a round picture
    Adams Rubble: That hapens to me all the time Gaya...I have to read the logs
    Caledonia Heron: no big thing, it's a nuance, particular to the environment
    Caledonia Heron: not really relevant, more observational in nature
    Adams Rubble: And I think from what I know so far, you, Gaya, may be abit in between having revealed some things but not others
    Gaya Ethaniel bookmarks an article
    Gaya Ethaniel: limited time Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: so much to say and so much to do!
    Gaya Ethaniel: i've been to PaB just over a week ago lol
    Adams Rubble: Yes, and this one is not so important as the other things we discusseed today
    Gaya Ethaniel: k
    Caledonia Heron: agreed Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: actually not important at all :)
    Fael Illyar: PaB tends to put wheels rolling :)

    With that we break up

    Caledonia Heron: I have to go y'all...see you soon :) thank you :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Cal :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: good to see you again good day
    Adams Rubble: Great having you join us Cal. bye :)
    Caledonia Heron: :) bye
    Fael Illyar: I should move to doing some other things too.
    Fael Illyar: See you two later :)
    Adams Rubble: We only went 2 hours and fifteen mintes...we are still an hour and 45 from the four hours last weekend :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: thanks Fael see you later :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Fael :)

    Gaya and I chatted for a bit longer

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