2008.07.19 19:00 - Come Back to Yourself in an Essential Way

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    That evening, I met Stim at the pavilion, and Pia arrived soon after.

    Pema Pera: Hi Stim!
    Stim Morane: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Pia!
    Stim Morane: Hi Pia!
    Pia Iger: Hello, you two:)
    Pema Pera: Stim, I’m curious, did you get a chance to see the new exploration that I suggested we do, “you seeing and Being seeing”?
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Pema Pera: As before, there clearly are significant elements in there from what you are teaching your groups in RL
    Pema Pera: Do you have any comments for us, about the way I introduced it here in SL?
    Stim Morane: It should be familiar in one form or another to many people here.
    Pema Pera: Yes, Dakini and Solo already commented
    Stim Morane: No, no comments. The main thing is for people to do it.
    Pema Pera: I was very glad to see their reactions
    Pia Iger: we discuss it in the last session.
    Pema Pera: ah, six hours ago?
    Pia Iger: yes. a good session.
    Stim Morane: Comments come later, based on experience
    Pema Pera: wonderful, Pia! I look forward to reading that
    Pema Pera wishing there was internet connectivity in airplanes over the pacific
    Stim Morane: soon, perhaps
    Pia Iger: I was thinkingnot good for workholics:(
    Pema Pera: there was! Then they took it away . . .
    Pema Pera: hahaha, Pia, you may be right
    Stim Morane: why?
    Pema Pera: I certainly would not want to have someone talking on a cell phone right next to me for fourteen hours . . . .
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Pema Pera: oh, they took it away because not enough people paid for it - but that was a few years ago
    Pema Pera: hi Adams!
    Stim Morane: Hi Adams1
    Pia Iger: HI, Adams

    Adams joined us.

    Pema Pera: Pia, talking about that exercise, have you started playing with it already?
    Pia Iger: flight time should be meditation time, Pia promotes.
    Pema Pera: haha, yes, good idea!
    Pia Iger: oh. Yes. I was saying this pm that it is natural stepforward to me. the new exercise.
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Pia! Can you say something about how it started out for you, when you did it?
    Pia Iger: I sort of notice you and stim were suggesting ” to see through the eyes of God /Budda” , and I tried it in RL.
    Pema Pera: Ah, yes, that is similar, indeed
    Pema Pera: How did that go in RL?
    Pia Iger: hard to use words. I feel the world opened up for me. and the previous preception of who I am is changing.
    Pema Pera: yes, very recognizable!
    Pema Pera: it is really hard to put into words, I know, but you’re providing some great pointers already that way.
    Pia Iger: repeating what I said this pm, I found “I have been ignoring my “devine” nature for so long”
    Pema Pera: btw, I have to get into my train now, to the airport, so I’m going out of SL. Then there is a tunnel, for the first twenty minutes, until we are out of downtown Tokyo, and then when the train emerges above ground, I’ll come back and join you all again!
    Stim Morane: wow
    Pema Pera: Oh, that’s very moving, Pia!
    Pia Iger: See you, Pema.
    Pema Pera: Have to run, c u all soon!
    Adams Rubble: bye Pema :)
    Stim Morane: till then, PEMA

    I exit Second Life. Stim later sent me the part of the chat log that I could not capture. The comments continue to be mine. Following Stim’s invitation, Pia starts a discussion about discipline.

    Stim Morane: so, what else shall we discuss?
    Pia Iger: I have 2 in my mind, discipline or empathy.
    Stim Morane: OK
    Stim Morane: And you, Adams?
    Adams Rubble: Fine with me
    Stim Morane: what would you like to explore together, then, Pia?
    Pia Iger: Discipline.
    Stim Morane: any aspect in particular?
    Pia Iger: I just come across a very nice book and want to read it through, but I found myself idle around.
    Stim Morane: Yes, I know the feeling
    Pia Iger: just an example.
    Pia Iger: many time, I want to do something, but can’t get myself to do it.
    Stim Morane: what do you do instead?
    Pia Iger: day dream, or play games on computer, or just hanging.
    Stim Morane: yes. Any ideas of how to redirect your energy?
    Pia Iger: normally just by pure pressure myself
    Adams Rubble: I find that if I enjoy something I want to do it. Oftgen I have to make sure that I do not feel that I have to do it but WANT to do it
    Stim Morane: yes, exactly
    Stim Morane: I think that’s a big part of the puzzle.
    Stim Morane: Of course, sometimes we really do just have to do something, regardless of what we want.
    Stim Morane: But I agree with your comment.
    Pia Iger: in my case, I really really want to finish this book, but I still not doing it.
    Adams Rubble: Another thing I do is make a list of all the things I need to do and check them off as I finish
    Stim Morane: Yes. It’s unfortunate that modern life can be very full of errands and annoying chores, and I think this actually undermines our ability to do things we want to do (in some sense).
    Stim Morane: We become disconnected from ourselves in ways that make it difficult to find the energy and motive needed to follow through on things that do matter to us.

    Stim mentioned the retreats he teaches, and the effect it has on efficiency.

    Stim Morane: When I take people on a retreat in RL, they come back able to live in a very direct, energetic and efficient way.
    Stim Morane: But after a week or two, their focus unravel again.
    Stim Morane: The same thing happens to me, for that matter.
    Adams Rubble: You are right about the modern world but we often can work to simplify things
    Stim Morane: suggestions?
    Pia Iger: how do you simplify?
    Adams Rubble: I moved near where I work. I used to walk, no I bike. Gives me lots of energy
    Adams Rubble: now
    Stim Morane: Yes, great ideas.
    Stim Morane: Although I do like walking …
    Adams Rubble: I have a knee problem :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, a common problem. Sorry.
    Stim Morane: I go through that from time to time.
    Adams Rubble: It’s OK, I have learned to bike and I love it
    Stim Morane: Good.
    Pia Iger: I wonder how ppl become more direct, energetic from the retreat?
    Stim Morane: For me, simplifying is something that I view as yet another chore. So of course I tend to duck it.
    Stim Morane: But it is crucial.
    Adams Rubble: :)

    Simplification as the root of discipline — and TV versus PaB :-).

    Stim Morane: Pia, the main point there is that we need to trim down to the basics of what we are. Then motive emerges from that.
    Pia Iger: I defintely cut the shopping, TV time already.
    Stim Morane: This is one of a thousand reasons why traditional contemplative teachings emphasize dealing with the “self”.
    Stim Morane: Oh, great if you can do it, Pia
    Adams Rubble: I haven’t watched TV since starting PaB. hehe
    Pia Iger: me, too, rarely.
    Stim Morane: Impressive
    Adams Rubble: Just no tome for it Stim :)
    Adams Rubble: time
    Pia Iger: is this they said “cut the trivial part of life”
    Stim Morane: Yes, I understand.
    Adams Rubble: all those logs to read
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Stim Morane: I would rather watch tv
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Pia Iger: haha
    Stim Morane: if only there were something to watch
    Stim Morane: Pia, rather than judging things as trivial, I emphasize just doing something that helps come back to yourself in an essential way.
    Stim Morane: Then it’s easy to see things as worth doing or not
    Pia Iger: nods.
    Adams Rubble: I think another thing that elps is to change our routines from time to time where we can
    Adams Rubble: helps
    Stim Morane: A great idea, Adams.
    Stim Morane: This should remove some of the deadening habits that accumulate
    Adams Rubble: That might together with your retreat
    Stim Morane: same point
    Stim Morane: the idea of a retreat is just to let go of unawareness and incomplete participation in life

    And Adams connects retreats with PaB.

    Adams Rubble feels she has been on a six week long retreat at PB
    Stim Morane: Good.
    Stim Morane: I’m afraid I’m not here often enough to enter into PaB in the same way
    Stim Morane: Another way to address the issue we’re discussing is to do nothing at all …
    Adams Rubble: It has been a wonderful opportunity to sit atg home and experience so many new ideas
    Pia Iger chewing ‘come back to yourself in an essential way’.
    Stim Morane: Oh, good, Adams.
    Adams Rubble: do nothing at all?
    Stim Morane: if you end up doing all sorts of things OTHER than what you would wish, then do nothing!
    Adams Rubble: I see
    Stim Morane: Then, when you are truly ready to do the thing you want, you can.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Adams Rubble: sort of a rest
    Pia Iger: ahh, it clears up a bit.
    Stim Morane: we usually allow ourselvs to get lost in tangents
    Stim Morane: we think they are innocent
    Adams Rubble: yes, I’ve done that

    At this point I come back on-line again.

    Adams Rubble: wb Pema
    Stim Morane: I’m one of the worst offenders
    Pia Iger: waves.
    Stim Morane: But anyway, this is what I teach, if not what I practice.
    Stim Morane: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: hello again, from the suburbs of Tokyo :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pia Iger: worst offender, in what sense?
    Stim Morane: there are many things to juggle, it’s hard to find time for what matters most. But this is also why my top priority is not negotiable.
    Stim Morane: I.e., meditation practice.
    Stim Morane: But for other things, like the example you mention, Pia, it can be difficult.
    Stim Morane: Would you like to go on to your other suppested topic?
    Adams Rubble: Hi Bertrum :)
    Pia Iger: ok. the other topic is empathy
    Pema Pera: Hi Bert!
    Stim Morane: Hi Bertrum!
    Pia Iger: Hi Bert!
    Bertrum Quan: hi all

    Bertrum joins us, and seing both of us, Adams connects back to our conversation of last night.

    Adams Rubble: BTW Bert and Pema, from last night
    Adams Rubble: I like expectation as a synonym for faith
    Adams Rubble: rather than intuition
    Pema Pera: ah, but expectation can have different shades . . . expecting something in particular can be intertwined with judgment — I don’t think you mean that, do you?
    Adams Rubble: I was thinking of it terms of your scientific experiment
    Adams Rubble: which was in the context it was discussed
    Pema Pera: ah! I see. Well, the best scientists have no strong expectation — or if they have one, they wear it lightly, and don’t allow themselves to be sidetracked by it
    Pema Pera: the idea is to listen to Nature — let her tell you what’s what
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Pema Pera: how do you see the connection between faith and expectation?
    Adams Rubble: I am not doing well remembering the exact context now but you were saying something to the effect that you would have a bit of faith that you were using the correct hypothesis (forgive me if I am badly misquoting)
    Adams Rubble: and Bert said intuition
    Adams Rubble: I thought expectation was better
    Adams Rubble: but I am getting us badly off track
    Pema Pera: ah, faith is what you need to continue
    Pema Pera: not to be convinced to do the right thing
    Pema Pera: sorry that was not precise
    Pema Pera: faith that groping in the dark, the way you do, is the right thing
    Adams Rubble: don;t you think faith that it will work out comehow is like expectation that it will work out somehow?

    I say more about one of my favorite topics: comparing contemplation with working with a scientific working hypothesis.

    Pema Pera: and faith that the hypothesis is helpful, useful
    Pema Pera: not necessarily correct
    Pema Pera: more accurately: the correctness of the working hypothess is probably impossible to fathom at first
    Pema Pera: the wh (working hypothesis) is a hook, a handle
    Pema Pera: only later will you understand what it may mean, what it points to
    Pema Pera: concrete example:
    Pema Pera: all the wh that were used in the beginning of qm (quantum mechanics)
    Pema Pera: by Bohr and de Broglie and others
    Pema Pera: were plainly wrong, in retrospect
    Pema Pera: but very very useful to point the way
    Pema Pera: to beat a path in the jungle
    Pema Pera: so they had faith to follow their nose, step by step moving forewards
    Pema Pera: expecting to find something
    Pema Pera: but having no idea what that would be
    Pema Pera: does that make sense?
    Adams Rubble: Yes
    Adams Rubble: In that sentence, I have to admit, intuition is better
    Bertrum Quan: I will make a case for intuition: logic and then intuition…
    Bertrum Quan: logical mind– intutitive mind.
    Pia Iger: you mean logic first, then intuition?
    Adams Rubble has empathy for Stim and Pia waiting to talk about empathy
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pia Iger: (we can keep empathy for next time)
    Bertrum Quan: I mean them as very different processes,,
    Bertrum Quan: different ways of knowing and seeing,,,
    Stim Morane: Yes, let’s wait on new topics. But thanks, Adams. We will also return to the issue you raised about a point Sky mentioned.
    Adams Rubble: yes?
    Stim Morane: I mean, we can wait on that, but will return to it soon …
    Adams Rubble: OK
    Pia Iger: they are obviously different, Bert.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Bertrum Quan: Faith can point you toward that which is unknown. Intuition can point you there as well,
    Adams Rubble is a bit embarassed about causing a stir but understands a little better
    Bertrum Quan: I would suggest that Pema new 9 sec exercise is an example …
    Bertrum Quan: Seeing from the perspective of Being…
    Bertrum Quan: That would likely have to be guided by faith and/or intuition.
    Pema Pera wants to thank Adams again for approaching her blog writer, who shared the lovely dialogue between them!

    I’m referring to http://rubblebornthoughts.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/the-dialogue-36th-daily-log/

    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: Yes, Bert, many elements will come in
    Pema Pera: certainly faith and intuition
    Pema Pera: and one might say, all that we can bring to bear
    Adams Rubble: imagination?
    Pema Pera: I like to see this kind of exercise as a total offering
    Pema Pera: making a bon fire in which you offer all that you’ve got
    Pema Pera: all that you have
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, and without expectations or preconceived notions.
    Adams Rubble: I have to say that although I am like the kid staring algebra that doesn’t ye know how to multiply, that it has been an intersting experiment
    Pema Pera: subtraction is all you need, perhaps, Adams :-)
    Pia Iger: :)
    Adams Rubble: that’s good
    Bertrum Quan: Hawking made the statement if he could see the begininng of time he would see the face of God.
    Bertrum Quan: Isn’t that another expression for seeing Being as well!
    Pia Iger: interesting!
    Adams Rubble: ah the creator God?
    Pema Pera: A sign of Being seeing may be that the Being-grounded emphathy can shine through
    Stim Morane: yes
    Pema Pera: not the human-centered empathy
    Pema Pera: not the “I love you ’cause you give me something” empathy that we all tend to fall into
    Pema Pera: not even loving God ’cause he created it all
    Pema Pera: rather sharing in God’s (Being’s) unconditional love
    Pema Pera: Being = Love here
    Pema Pera: like Stevenaia suggested
    Bertrum Quan: I translated Hawking another way…
    Adams Rubble thinks that is a wonderful sounding sentence but she doesn’t understand it at all
    Pema Pera: that’s why we practice, to learn to see
    Pema Pera: what that may mean
    Pema Pera: as Sky quoted Stim
    Pema Pera: Stim, do you want to say something about that?
    Pema Pera: Sorry, Bert, didn’t want to cut you off!
    Bertrum Quan: At the moment at the very beginning there was everything
    Stim Morane: No, sorry. I am about to leave.
    Pema Pera: we often have two strands going, that’s okay too!

    Next I referred to http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/act-as-we-know-and-then-it-comes/

    Pema Pera: Sky said something like “do as if you already know”
    Pema Pera: and then you’ll find out what it is
    Pema Pera: very much the Play as Being spirit
    Pema Pera: so, Adams, by all means, just keep the not-knowing open!
    Pema Pera: and let it teach you
    Pema Pera: allow it to teach you
    Pema Pera: without specific expectations
    Stim Morane: yes, I was saying something like this in various teachings she attended. But in those cases, the issue wasn’t as elusive as “Being” might seem to be. So adapting it to this present case would require some more ingredients.
    Stim Morane: We’ll see …
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: Sorry again, Bert!
    Pema Pera: So Hawking, and beginning of time?
    Pema Pera: At the moment at the very beginning there was everything
    Pema Pera: you wrote just a bit ago — can you say more?
    Bertrum Quan: At that momentI do not translate that as the God as creator… I translate it as seeing Being—everything
    Adams Rubble: Sorry Bert, I was joking because we discussed that earlier
    Stim Morane: yes. Hawking himself explicitly took his own work and related findings in science to show that “God is not needed”.
    Stim Morane: So your re-interpretation is probably more apt here.
    Pema Pera: can we be even more radical, and view *any moment* (like: right now) that way?
    Bertrum Quan: I don’t think that is radical.
    Bertrum Quan: Is is all still there–
    Pema Pera: Ah, my train is approaching Narita airport, about to enter a tunnel again, under the runways — have to sign off — see you all later!
    Adams Rubble: bye :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, I must go too. Thanks for attending!
    Pia Iger: safe flight!
    Adams Rubble: bye Stim :)
    Bertrum Quan: Have a safe journey
    Pia Iger: bye, stime
    Pema Pera: thank you all for joining this wonderful adventure together!
    Adams Rubble: Yes safe trip
    Stim Morane: Bye Adams, Bertrum, Pema and Pia!
    Bertrum Quan: Bye Stim

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