2008.08.01 07:00 - Adding a Lump Sum at the End of the Day

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    Adams Rubble was the guardian and has provided the comments.

    Gaya, Neela, Genesis, Prosper and myself discussed many of our experiences with the 9-second practice and meditation in general

    I was a bit early arriving at the pavlion and I had a few minutes to enjoy the view from the pavilion before Gaya joined me

    Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya :)
    Adams Rubble knows Gaya is here but doesn't see her
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble: I am glad you are here first, I have a question for you
    Gaya Ethaniel: severe lag here
    Gaya Ethaniel: Shoot!
    Adams Rubble: Ah
    Adams Rubble: Apparently it has been an ongoing problem the last couple of days
    Gaya Ethaniel sighs
    Adams Rubble: A couple of days ago, in one of the sessions...
    Adams Rubble: you mentioned using a form of body scan to help you go to sleep
    Adams Rubble: and compared it to hypnosis
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
    Adams Rubble: can you tell me more?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, you are familiar with body sweeping in meditation as I understand from your blog
    Adams Rubble: Well, maybe not as much as it may appear :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adams Rubble: I have done my own routines

    Neela joins us

    Adams Rubble: Hi Neela :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Gaya and Adams
    Neela Blaisdale: How are you both?
    Adams Rubble: I am a bit weary this morning :)

    Gaya describes how she does body sweeping

    Gaya Ethaniel: Body sweeping is slightly different to what one does with hypnosis if I understand it correctly but both relaxes you if you do it before going to bed
    Gaya Ethaniel: For hypnosis, it's similar to making yourself feeling sinking down into bed
    Neela Blaisdale: Body scanning?
    Gaya Ethaniel: relaxing by 'scanning/sweeping' body from head to toe
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes have done it any times
    Neela Blaisdale: Self hypnosis as well
    Gaya Ethaniel: If my mind is too noisy and this doesn't work, I do meditation while lying down - you could try this too
    Neela Blaisdale: And taught others
    Neela Blaisdale: Having trouble sleeping Adams?
    Gaya Ethaniel: This was recommended to an elderly person in hospice who couldn't meditate sitting or walking
    Adams Rubble: I did last night, Neela, but that is not why I am asking
    Gaya Ethaniel: I lay on my side with body straight and do the scanning/sweeping
    Gaya Ethaniel: once calm, i lay on my back (my usual sleeping mode) and try to relax sinking down into bed

    Neela is curious about why I am asking about Gaya's methodology and I neglect to tell them I have a scientific interest about the phenomena I am experiencing

    Neela Blaisdale: In what context were you asking?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Oh Adams saw my passing comments about this in one of previous PaB session and she wanted to know more that's all
    Adams Rubble: It was doing a form of body sweeping the day that I had the vsion of being launched into the sky through the clouds toward the sun
    Adams Rubble: When I saw a connection with hypnosis I began to wonder
    Neela Blaisdale: wonder what?
    Adams Rubble: whether I induced the vision
    Gaya Ethaniel: it's possible Adams
    Neela Blaisdale: And in what way would that matter?
    Adams Rubble: I haven;t been able to duplicate it though
    Gaya Ethaniel: any particular reason why you want to duplicate that experience?
    Adams Rubble: i want to understand
    Neela Blaisdale: But is it important to you whether it was induced internally or externaly?
    Gaya Ethaniel: so I understand it only happened once until now?

    Ryusho arrives and we welcome him

    ryusho Ort takes a humble bow
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble: That vision was after the body scan...the other one I don;t think was
    Adams Rubble: Hell Ryusho :)
    ryusho Ort: HELLO!
    Adams Rubble: hello
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Ryusho
    Adams Rubble: bad typo :)
    ryusho Ort: hope i am not interrupting, or i can leave.....
    Adams Rubble: No of course not, you are always welcome
    Neela Blaisdale: Not at all
    ryusho Ort: thank you ladies..

    ...and we continue our discussion

    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... that's interesting Adams. Could you clarify whether you felt soaring into the sky or you saw yourself in the 'image'?
    Adams Rubble: Gaya and Neela are explaining aspects of body scanning to me
    Adams Rubble: I felt it
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok... so it's not something you saw...
    Green Tea (Hojicha): Mmmhh... leaves perfectly roasted, enjoy it ryusho Ort
    Adams Rubble: no I felt myself lifting; I saw the clouds and the sun...and finally the vision of God sitting on the cloud
    Neela Blaisdale: Ryusho Adams is talking about a vision she had the other day
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... don't think i have had similar experience strong in visual - feeling actions
    ryusho Ort: sounds like astral projection

    Hmmm, I missed that comment by Ryusho. What did he mean?

    Neela Blaisdale: But Adams why do you want to know the source?
    Adams Rubble: I never experienced anything like this my entire life, and now twice
    Gaya Ethaniel: for me, it's more like seeing myself in a particular 'image' otherwise my experiences are sensory without much visual clues
    Neela Blaisdale: It seems like where ever it came from it was enjoyable?
    Adams Rubble: I am having trouble understanding why you question my wanting to know
    Adams Rubble wants to know everything
    Adams Rubble: yes, it was very pleasant
    Neela Blaisdale: Oh no reason was just trying to clarify
    Gaya Ethaniel: as it only happened once, if you want to understand, i suggest you continue with body scanning and see where it takes you - afraid no other suggestions...
    Adams Rubble is thinking of Hamlet's comment to Horatio "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy
    Gaya Ethaniel: for me body scanning doesn't result into an experience as you just described Adams
    Neela Blaisdale: Wanted to make sure the not knowing wasn't disturbing, I understand that intellectually you would want to know

    It suddenly occurs to me that may think I was referring to their understanding

    Adams Rubble: just to clarify...MY philosophy :)
    Gaya Ethaniel remembers everyone is different in understanding Being
    Adams Rubble: yes Gaya
    Neela Blaisdale: Maybe you will have to have more of these to understand them better
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: what i would say about your wanting to understand is sometimes it can hinder you in experiencing more.... i could be wrong though
    Adams Rubble: I believe I am very fortunate indedd :)
    Adams Rubble: indeed
    Adams Rubble: sleep deprived - can't type
    Adams Rubble: Thank you both for your insights :)
    Gaya Ethaniel is also frazzled by insomnia
    Gaya Ethaniel: np Adams anytime
    Neela Blaisdale: And just like the vision came at a certain time, the understanding may also have it's own time frame
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes anytime
    Adams Rubble: the second one came at a very different time
    Neela Blaisdale: How were they different?
    Adams Rubble: Well, as you may know, I have substituted the concept of God for the concept of Being for now
    Adams Rubble: In the first one, I went looking for God
    Adams Rubble: In the second one, God came to me
    Adams Rubble: In the first I was going toward the light
    Adams Rubble: In the second, there was no light...all dark
    Neela Blaisdale: So I understand better, when you substitute God for being, do you consider you as God in the same way you as Being?
    Adams Rubble: No, I have not yet experienced any sense of "oneness"

    Genesis appears and we greet her

    Adams Rubble: Hello Gen :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Gen

    By Neela's and Gaya's questions I am understanding that the experience is separate from the whatever triggered it

    Neela Blaisdale: So is it a different experience for you now and if so how?
    Adams Rubble: I don't understand the question, Neela
    Neela Blaisdale: Since you began subsituting God for Being, is the 9 sec experience different for you?
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I think it is
    Adams Rubble: I am working within metaphors I have long known
    Adams Rubble: I am following them by instinct
    Adams Rubble: It is new ground for me
    Adams Rubble: and seemingly very powerful
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've given up trying to 'think' in 'words' and 'concepts'
    Adams Rubble: My blog keeps me in words
    Neela Blaisdale: Simply feel the experience?
    Adams Rubble: but they fail me often
    Gaya Ethaniel: know the feeling
    Gaya Ethaniel: anyhow i'm glad for you Adams that you feel you're getting somewhere with 9 sec
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes
    Adams Rubble: thank you Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)

    Gaya begins a new thread and Propser steps in and joins our little group making it five of us

    Gaya Ethaniel: Genesis and Neela - I haven't had much chance listening to your experiences before. Could you share?
    Neela Blaisdale: Experiences about the 9 sec?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yup
    Adams Rubble: Or anything Nela :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Propser :)
    Prosper Telling: morning
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Prosper

    Neela describes her routine

    Neela Blaisdale: :) Well a problem for me is the time. I find it very difficult to remember it
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Prosper
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Neela Blaisdale: to remember to do it
    Gaya Ethaniel another nod
    Neela Blaisdale: It's better when I'm alone, not at work, not socializing
    Neela Blaisdale: Then sometimes I remember
    Gaya Ethaniel has created an internal 'mind clock' for doing 9 sec when not alone
    Neela Blaisdale: Although sometimes I remember when I'm walking or driving, definitely don't want to do it when I'm driving

    The idea of PaBing while driving brings out some difference of opinion

    Gaya Ethaniel: yeah... definitely not when driving :)
    Neela Blaisdale: What is you internal mind clock? Sounds useful
    Adams Rubble is always glad to hear somebody is not doing something else when driving
    genesis Zhangsun: but it isn't really "something else" is it? ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) well whenever i notice myself feeling uncomfortable or stressed, i imagine the sound of the bells
    Gaya Ethaniel: imagining the sound prompts me to do 9 sec
    Gaya Ethaniel: so i'm not really doing 9 sec every 15 min per se
    Adams Rubble: that is great Gaya
    Neela Blaisdale: Good idea, like feeling the cushion when you're meditating to get you back and away from your thoughts
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry Genesis, don't follow you there... could you explain a bit more on 'something else'?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Neela that's right
    Prosper Telling: I do some of my best Being while driving. It is less distracting than most of the other mental activities we do then.

    and then our thoughts start to interweave

    genesis Zhangsun: Its like the analogy about the kitcken and the restaurant that Pema uses
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes Prosper!
    genesis Zhangsun: Exactly
    Neela Blaisdale: what is the analogy?
    genesis Zhangsun: He talks about the 9 second practice as starting a restaurant without a kitchen
    Prosper Telling: A woman pulled out in front of me the other day and was amused to realize my last thought on earth could have been litterally "May all beings be happy".
    Gaya Ethaniel: afraid i'm not there yet Prosper
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: the 9 seconds gets you in the door
    Neela Blaisdale: that's wonderful Prosper
    genesis Zhangsun: but the real food, nourishment it is delightfully the surprising once you get a taste doing anything while "Being" is not separate from life
    genesis Zhangsun: that probably makes little sense ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: where does the food come from if no kitchen?
    genesis Zhangsun: oops delightfully surprising
    genesis Zhangsun: ah yes this is the wonderful mystery!
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: in part you realize its always been there and in part that you don't need it
    Neela Blaisdale: yes always there
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... i c
    Neela Blaisdale: But for me it's hard to stay aware of it
    Prosper Telling: I don't know if it has ever been suggested but for folks who forget, I wonder what the thoughts of adding a lump sum at the end of the day are?
    genesis Zhangsun: but the act of getting yourself in and sitting

    Ah, Prosper, the title for today!

    genesis Zhangsun: this is the beginning
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?Prosper
    Gaya Ethaniel: i understand better your metaphor now Genesis thanks
    genesis Zhangsun: sure :)

    then we come together to agree that we can be flexible about  the 9 second practice

    Prosper Telling: It's like 14 minutes and 24 seconds a day... If I know that I've been too busy to keep to the fifteen minute thing, I can play catch up at the end of the day.
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Prosper Telling: Kind of an easy payment approach
    genesis Zhangsun: doesn't sound like a bad idea
    genesis Zhangsun: better than not at all!
    Gaya Ethaniel: i c that would work too - i 'try' not to feel obliged to do 9 sec. I just do it when needed if not alone
    Adams Rubble: Yes, the thing about the exercise is that there is lots of room for free form
    Gaya Ethaniel: i have to say though the gaps between 9 secs have decreased dramatically over last 2 weeks
    genesis Zhangsun: yes?
    Gaya Ethaniel: me?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Gaya!
    genesis Zhangsun: that sounds wonderful
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh.. you didn't understand what i just said?
    genesis Zhangsun: no just wonderfing if you could expand on this
    Gaya Ethaniel: sure genesis
    Gaya Ethaniel: well once i started to do 9 sec throughout whole day, i find myself being in the '9 sec zone' more or less all the time - that's what i mean by the gaps. When i'm not alone, i just ring the internal bell or take a deep breath to get into the 'zone' as and when necessary
    genesis Zhangsun: and what is this 9 second zone?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... yes let me give you the relevant log for this one sec
    Neela Blaisdale: I wonder if it would be easier for me to remember if I just did it when I did and stopped feeling guilty for not going it eery 15 min
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/..._The_blackness
    Adams Rubble: yes Neela
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes definitely Neela
    Neela Blaisdale: I love the idea of doing it when needed, that works much better for me
    Neela Blaisdale: Thanks Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: np :)

    We agree to no guilt and no forcing it

    Prosper Telling: Yeah, I don't think guilt should come out of this as a by-product.
    Gaya Ethaniel: definitely Neela. I struggling with myself stopping meditation (stopped doing it for about 5 years and started again about a month ago) and feeling guilty but my teacher said no point forcing oneself to mediate or practise
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes I tend to take everything too seriously, big problem
    Gaya Ethaniel: struggled*
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes the forcing becomes counterproductive and whatever it is becomes a burden
    Gaya Ethaniel: i felt an itch for starting meditation again and i just waited for that moment
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Adams Rubble: All of our tasks in life are like that
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks Gaya
    Adams Rubble: we are most productive when we want to do something
    genesis Zhangsun: that helped
    Gaya Ethaniel: np gen hope it explains a bit about me using 'zone' - not sure how else i could describe it :)
    genesis Zhangsun: its a good word
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Adams true
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: and when we wait for that right moment
    Prosper Telling: I find my meditation is a end result of a lot of internal things going on... otherwise I'm just occupying space rather than just sitting.
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... Prosper explain a little more pls?
    Gaya Ethaniel: you mean counter productive if not right time?
    Prosper Telling: Yes... It's not something I can guilt myself into or trick myself into doing.
    Prosper Telling: If I can't commit to what I'm doing I'm better off doing the dishes.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods

    and we start discussing different types of meditation

    Gaya Ethaniel does washing dishes up meditation at times too
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes one can strive to be mindful while doing anything
    Gaya Ethaniel: i've found that 'meditation' i do is slightly different from 9 sec
    Neela Blaisdale: How so Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: in meditation, i tend to focus on 'mindfulness' being in present and in 9 sec, i do 'stepping aside'
    Gaya Ethaniel: i'd say 9 sec is a little more intense than my normal practice
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes. And for me the 9 sec also feels different, there's a sense of merging, although I'm not 100% certain what it is I'm merging with
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    genesis Zhangsun: could be everything?
    genesis Zhangsun: with which you are merging?
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: haven't experienced 'merging' yet - could you describe a bit more Neela?
    Prosper Telling: As Pureland Buddhist I chant the name of Amitabha , rather often but the 9 sec for me is recalling that our nature is the same... There is niether self nor other, individual ego or independent lifespan.

    Neela introduces a sense of connectedness

    Neela Blaisdale: For me there's s vague sense of connection, connectedness
    Neela Blaisdale: Not exactly sure of to what or whom. Also heightened sense awareness
    Gaya Ethaniel: does it ever feel like everything is get wiped out?
    Neela Blaisdale: else?
    Adams Rubble: I have been feeling a sense of connectedness the past few days
    Gaya Ethaniel: wiped out into 'blank'*
    Adams Rubble: and it lasts over a period of a few stops
    Adams Rubble: maybe for an hour or two
    Neela Blaisdale: No it doesn't feel that everyting else is gone, actually evrything else seems more vivid, for instance I notice more sounds
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Adams, think Pia also raised the point of being connected
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh i c Neela
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes for me part of being is this connectedness
    Adams Rubble: Have all of you had outside meditation coaching?
    Gaya Ethaniel: a couple of classes ages ago Adams
    Neela Blaisdale: I have, gone to classes and workshops
    Prosper Telling: Yes here.
    Neela Blaisdale: It was very helpful in many ways
    genesis Zhangsun: no
    Adams Rubble: Thanks, I hear things that I have not experienced from so many of you
    Neela Blaisdale: There are many resources for information on places or people near you who teach
    Adams Rubble: I did no formal meditation until I started here 8 weeks ago
    Adams Rubble: this is all new to me
    Adams Rubble: It is wonderful to hear about your experiences

    ...and we come back to Christianity

    Gaya Ethaniel: christians do meditation i understand Adams
    Adams Rubble: and different ways of looking at things
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Adams Rubble: Well, that's the funny thing Gaya
    Adams Rubble: I gave up Christianity over 40 years ago
    Gaya Ethaniel: my aunt (a nun) told me about repeating a certain phrase while meditating.... hm let me find it
    Adams Rubble: but now I am finding the language so helpful to understanding what everyone is doing here
    genesis Zhangsun: so God is the finger then pointing Adams?
    genesis Zhangsun: you are not a Christian anymore?
    Neela Blaisdale: It was interesting Adams because until you and Pema had that dialogue I didn't connect any of this to religion
    Adams Rubble: I am a bit confused on that point Gen
    Adams Rubble: Somedays I think I may be :)
    Adams Rubble: I understand the concept of God
    Gaya Ethaniel: sorry can't find the phrase Adams but i understand it to be similar practice to Pure Land Buddhism
    Prosper Telling: Ah, the G-word... I think that might be the besy definition of God I've heard in a while ;-)
    Adams Rubble: and I have had real mystical-like experiences the past couple of weeks
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Neela Blaisdale: Very exciting!
    Adams Rubble: yes Neela
    genesis Zhangsun: Only meant Adams that perhaps God, the concept of God is pointing you in the direction
    Gaya Ethaniel remembers Pema 'Being = divinity'
    genesis Zhangsun: but "God" as known by Christians is not the be all end all for you

    Yes Gen, I expect that is the case

    Neela Blaisdale: Well circling back to our earlier discussion if you ever undestand how to induce them let us know!
    Adams Rubble: well, I am open to that suggestopm
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't know it was a question
    Gaya Ethaniel: what works for me may not work for you though Neela
    Adams Rubble: Pema speaks the language of Christianity very well to me
    Gaya Ethaniel: i tend to try out what people say here
    Adams Rubble: Lots of thoughts there :)
    Prosper Telling: Yeah, I lack karmic affinity with Christianity.
    Adams Rubble: Ok Neela :)
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Oh Prosper, could you tell me more about that feeling?
    Adams Rubble: yes, Gen
    Prosper Telling: Well, I would in my youth blame Christianity... I could go on and on about it's short comings and oxymorons...
    Prosper Telling: but as I got older, noticed how I could overlook similar problems in other faiths, I found that it was in this case more about me.
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
    Prosper Telling: It just never clicked.
    genesis Zhangsun: Well I must be going friends!
    genesis Zhangsun: Thank you for sharing
    Gaya Ethaniel: good day genesis
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Prosper Telling: Thank you
    Adams Rubble: Good to see you again, Gen. bye :)
    genesis Zhangsun: bye
    Neela Blaisdale: Goodbye Genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye everyone!
    Prosper Telling: Bye

    Genesis left but her avatar's body remained behind while we move on to religions in general

    Gaya Ethaniel: i also realised that all main religions point to same direction Prosper
    Adams Rubble: I understand what you are saying Prosper
    Gaya Ethaniel: just we are receptive to a particular religion or philosophy, if not at all
    Adams Rubble: I do not accept the concept of sin
    Prosper Telling: Yeah, proud member of the Unitarian Universalist here, so me too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: what's Unitarian Universalist? is it like agnostism?
    Prosper Telling: All powerful is one of my sticking points.
    Adams Rubble: But Being seems to be all powerful
    Gaya Ethaniel: agnosticism*
    Prosper Telling: Ah, no. There is a long history (and even longer explanation) but check out www.uua.org for an answer
    Gaya Ethaniel: cool thanks
    Prosper Telling: But Being acts through attraction rather than domination...
    Prosper Telling: Very process theology here.
    Neela Blaisdale: But being seems somehow more benevolent. Also being feels to me like I also have a small part it making it what it is. Kind of an obligation to all thing but from me not someone or thng outside of me
    Adams Rubble: My Christian God is benevelent, not dominating. I am not very good with theology :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: i'm surprised to hear that being give you such feelings... wonder why i can't ascribe any such emotions to Being
    Prosper Telling: And that's back to it being about me.
    Adams Rubble: We find what fits us :)

    Neela notes that religions have been misused

    Neela Blaisdale: Also I get a little nervous with the history of things that have happened in the name of God. Never heard of that re being
    Prosper Telling: And this lifetime is such a tiny part of the bigger pic
    Adams Rubble: People have been using "God" for their own ends for a long time
    Gaya Ethaniel: not sure what you mean Neela, pls give an example?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... like crusade
    Adams Rubble: like George Bush
    Neela Blaisdale: just that in the past wars have been started for "religious "reasons, like the Crusades
    Gaya Ethaniel: i c
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes to both
    Gaya Ethaniel: gives bad name to religion!
    Adams Rubble: haha
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: that's how human beings are in general i guess, we can't help it

    We continued our discussion about religion being misused by mankind for a bit longer

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