Adams Rubble was the guardian and has provided the comments.
Gaya, Neela, Genesis, Prosper and myself discussed many of our experiences with the 9-second practice and meditation in general
I was a bit early arriving at the pavlion and I had a few minutes to enjoy the view from the pavilion before Gaya joined me
Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya :)
Adams Rubble knows Gaya is here but doesn't see her
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Rubble: I am glad you are here first, I have a question for you
Gaya Ethaniel: severe lag here
Gaya Ethaniel: Shoot!
Adams Rubble: Ah
Adams Rubble: Apparently it has been an ongoing problem the last couple of days
Gaya Ethaniel sighs
Adams Rubble: A couple of days ago, in one of the sessions...
Adams Rubble: you mentioned using a form of body scan to help you go to sleep
Adams Rubble: and compared it to hypnosis
Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
Adams Rubble: can you tell me more?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, you are familiar with body sweeping in meditation as I understand from your blog
Adams Rubble: Well, maybe not as much as it may appear :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adams Rubble: I have done my own routines
Neela joins us
Adams Rubble: Hi Neela :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Gaya and Adams
Neela Blaisdale: How are you both?
Adams Rubble: I am a bit weary this morning :)
Gaya describes how she does body sweeping
Gaya Ethaniel: Body sweeping is slightly different to what one does with hypnosis if I understand it correctly but both relaxes you if you do it before going to bed
Gaya Ethaniel: For hypnosis, it's similar to making yourself feeling sinking down into bed
Neela Blaisdale: Body scanning?
Gaya Ethaniel: relaxing by 'scanning/sweeping' body from head to toe
Neela Blaisdale: Yes have done it any times
Neela Blaisdale: Self hypnosis as well
Gaya Ethaniel: If my mind is too noisy and this doesn't work, I do meditation while lying down - you could try this too
Neela Blaisdale: And taught others
Neela Blaisdale: Having trouble sleeping Adams?
Gaya Ethaniel: This was recommended to an elderly person in hospice who couldn't meditate sitting or walking
Adams Rubble: I did last night, Neela, but that is not why I am asking
Gaya Ethaniel: I lay on my side with body straight and do the scanning/sweeping
Gaya Ethaniel: once calm, i lay on my back (my usual sleeping mode) and try to relax sinking down into bed
Neela is curious about why I am asking about Gaya's methodology and I neglect to tell them I have a scientific interest about the phenomena I am experiencing
Neela Blaisdale: In what context were you asking?
Gaya Ethaniel: Oh Adams saw my passing comments about this in one of previous PaB session and she wanted to know more that's all
Adams Rubble: It was doing a form of body sweeping the day that I had the vsion of being launched into the sky through the clouds toward the sun
Adams Rubble: When I saw a connection with hypnosis I began to wonder
Neela Blaisdale: wonder what?
Adams Rubble: whether I induced the vision
Gaya Ethaniel: it's possible Adams
Neela Blaisdale: And in what way would that matter?
Adams Rubble: I haven;t been able to duplicate it though
Gaya Ethaniel: any particular reason why you want to duplicate that experience?
Adams Rubble: i want to understand
Neela Blaisdale: But is it important to you whether it was induced internally or externaly?
Gaya Ethaniel: so I understand it only happened once until now?
Ryusho arrives and we welcome him
ryusho Ort takes a humble bow
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Rubble: That vision was after the body scan...the other one I don;t think was
Adams Rubble: Hell Ryusho :)
ryusho Ort: HELLO!
Adams Rubble: hello
Neela Blaisdale: Hello Ryusho
Adams Rubble: bad typo :)
ryusho Ort: hope i am not interrupting, or i can leave.....
Adams Rubble: No of course not, you are always welcome
Neela Blaisdale: Not at all
ryusho Ort: thank you ladies..
...and we continue our discussion
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... that's interesting Adams. Could you clarify whether you felt soaring into the sky or you saw yourself in the 'image'?
Adams Rubble: Gaya and Neela are explaining aspects of body scanning to me
Adams Rubble: I felt it
Gaya Ethaniel: ok... so it's not something you saw...
Green Tea (Hojicha): Mmmhh... leaves perfectly roasted, enjoy it ryusho Ort
Adams Rubble: no I felt myself lifting; I saw the clouds and the sun...and finally the vision of God sitting on the cloud
Neela Blaisdale: Ryusho Adams is talking about a vision she had the other day
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... don't think i have had similar experience strong in visual - feeling actions
ryusho Ort: sounds like astral projection
Hmmm, I missed that comment by Ryusho. What did he mean?
Neela Blaisdale: But Adams why do you want to know the source?
Adams Rubble: I never experienced anything like this my entire life, and now twice
Gaya Ethaniel: for me, it's more like seeing myself in a particular 'image' otherwise my experiences are sensory without much visual clues
Neela Blaisdale: It seems like where ever it came from it was enjoyable?
Adams Rubble: I am having trouble understanding why you question my wanting to know
Adams Rubble wants to know everything
Adams Rubble: yes, it was very pleasant
Neela Blaisdale: Oh no reason was just trying to clarify
Gaya Ethaniel: as it only happened once, if you want to understand, i suggest you continue with body scanning and see where it takes you - afraid no other suggestions...
Adams Rubble is thinking of Hamlet's comment to Horatio "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Gaya Ethaniel: for me body scanning doesn't result into an experience as you just described Adams
Neela Blaisdale: Wanted to make sure the not knowing wasn't disturbing, I understand that intellectually you would want to know
It suddenly occurs to me that may think I was referring to their understanding
Adams Rubble: just to clarify...MY philosophy :)
Gaya Ethaniel remembers everyone is different in understanding Being
Adams Rubble: yes Gaya
Neela Blaisdale: Maybe you will have to have more of these to understand them better
Adams Rubble: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: what i would say about your wanting to understand is sometimes it can hinder you in experiencing more.... i could be wrong though
Adams Rubble: I believe I am very fortunate indedd :)
Adams Rubble: indeed
Adams Rubble: sleep deprived - can't type
Adams Rubble: Thank you both for your insights :)
Gaya Ethaniel is also frazzled by insomnia
Gaya Ethaniel: np Adams anytime
Neela Blaisdale: And just like the vision came at a certain time, the understanding may also have it's own time frame
Neela Blaisdale: Yes anytime
Adams Rubble: the second one came at a very different time
Neela Blaisdale: How were they different?
Adams Rubble: Well, as you may know, I have substituted the concept of God for the concept of Being for now
Adams Rubble: In the first one, I went looking for God
Adams Rubble: In the second one, God came to me
Adams Rubble: In the first I was going toward the light
Adams Rubble: In the second, there was no light...all dark
Neela Blaisdale: So I understand better, when you substitute God for being, do you consider you as God in the same way you as Being?
Adams Rubble: No, I have not yet experienced any sense of "oneness"
Genesis appears and we greet her
Adams Rubble: Hello Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Neela Blaisdale: Hello Gen
By Neela's and Gaya's questions I am understanding that the experience is separate from the whatever triggered it
Neela Blaisdale: So is it a different experience for you now and if so how?
Adams Rubble: I don't understand the question, Neela
Neela Blaisdale: Since you began subsituting God for Being, is the 9 sec experience different for you?
Adams Rubble: Yes, I think it is
Adams Rubble: I am working within metaphors I have long known
Adams Rubble: I am following them by instinct
Adams Rubble: It is new ground for me
Adams Rubble: and seemingly very powerful
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: I've given up trying to 'think' in 'words' and 'concepts'
Adams Rubble: My blog keeps me in words
Neela Blaisdale: Simply feel the experience?
Adams Rubble: but they fail me often
Gaya Ethaniel: know the feeling
Gaya Ethaniel: anyhow i'm glad for you Adams that you feel you're getting somewhere with 9 sec
Neela Blaisdale: Yes
Adams Rubble: thank you Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
Gaya begins a new thread and Propser steps in and joins our little group making it five of us
Gaya Ethaniel: Genesis and Neela - I haven't had much chance listening to your experiences before. Could you share?
Neela Blaisdale: Experiences about the 9 sec?
Gaya Ethaniel: yup
Adams Rubble: Or anything Nela :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Propser :)
Prosper Telling: morning
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Prosper
Neela describes her routine
Neela Blaisdale: :) Well a problem for me is the time. I find it very difficult to remember it
Neela Blaisdale: Hello Prosper
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Neela Blaisdale: to remember to do it
Gaya Ethaniel another nod
Neela Blaisdale: It's better when I'm alone, not at work, not socializing
Neela Blaisdale: Then sometimes I remember
Gaya Ethaniel has created an internal 'mind clock' for doing 9 sec when not alone
Neela Blaisdale: Although sometimes I remember when I'm walking or driving, definitely don't want to do it when I'm driving
The idea of PaBing while driving brings out some difference of opinion
Gaya Ethaniel: yeah... definitely not when driving :)
Neela Blaisdale: What is you internal mind clock? Sounds useful
Adams Rubble is always glad to hear somebody is not doing something else when driving
genesis Zhangsun: but it isn't really "something else" is it? ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: :) well whenever i notice myself feeling uncomfortable or stressed, i imagine the sound of the bells
Gaya Ethaniel: imagining the sound prompts me to do 9 sec
Gaya Ethaniel: so i'm not really doing 9 sec every 15 min per se
Adams Rubble: that is great Gaya
Neela Blaisdale: Good idea, like feeling the cushion when you're meditating to get you back and away from your thoughts
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry Genesis, don't follow you there... could you explain a bit more on 'something else'?
Gaya Ethaniel: ty Adams
Gaya Ethaniel: yes Neela that's right
Prosper Telling: I do some of my best Being while driving. It is less distracting than most of the other mental activities we do then.
and then our thoughts start to interweave
genesis Zhangsun: Its like the analogy about the kitcken and the restaurant that Pema uses
genesis Zhangsun: Yes Prosper!
genesis Zhangsun: Exactly
Neela Blaisdale: what is the analogy?
genesis Zhangsun: He talks about the 9 second practice as starting a restaurant without a kitchen
Prosper Telling: A woman pulled out in front of me the other day and was amused to realize my last thought on earth could have been litterally "May all beings be happy".
Gaya Ethaniel: afraid i'm not there yet Prosper
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
genesis Zhangsun: the 9 seconds gets you in the door
Neela Blaisdale: that's wonderful Prosper
genesis Zhangsun: but the real food, nourishment it is delightfully the surprising once you get a taste doing anything while "Being" is not separate from life
genesis Zhangsun: that probably makes little sense ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: where does the food come from if no kitchen?
genesis Zhangsun: oops delightfully surprising
genesis Zhangsun: ah yes this is the wonderful mystery!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
genesis Zhangsun: in part you realize its always been there and in part that you don't need it
Neela Blaisdale: yes always there
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... i c
Neela Blaisdale: But for me it's hard to stay aware of it
Prosper Telling: I don't know if it has ever been suggested but for folks who forget, I wonder what the thoughts of adding a lump sum at the end of the day are?
genesis Zhangsun: but the act of getting yourself in and sitting
Ah, Prosper, the title for today!
genesis Zhangsun: this is the beginning
Gaya Ethaniel: ?Prosper
Gaya Ethaniel: i understand better your metaphor now Genesis thanks
genesis Zhangsun: sure :)
then we come together to agree that we can be flexible about the 9 second practice
Prosper Telling: It's like 14 minutes and 24 seconds a day... If I know that I've been too busy to keep to the fifteen minute thing, I can play catch up at the end of the day.
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Prosper Telling: Kind of an easy payment approach
genesis Zhangsun: doesn't sound like a bad idea
genesis Zhangsun: better than not at all!
Gaya Ethaniel: i c that would work too - i 'try' not to feel obliged to do 9 sec. I just do it when needed if not alone
Adams Rubble: Yes, the thing about the exercise is that there is lots of room for free form
Gaya Ethaniel: i have to say though the gaps between 9 secs have decreased dramatically over last 2 weeks
genesis Zhangsun: yes?
Gaya Ethaniel: me?
genesis Zhangsun: yes Gaya!
genesis Zhangsun: that sounds wonderful
Gaya Ethaniel: oh.. you didn't understand what i just said?
genesis Zhangsun: no just wonderfing if you could expand on this
Gaya Ethaniel: sure genesis
Gaya Ethaniel: well once i started to do 9 sec throughout whole day, i find myself being in the '9 sec zone' more or less all the time - that's what i mean by the gaps. When i'm not alone, i just ring the internal bell or take a deep breath to get into the 'zone' as and when necessary
genesis Zhangsun: and what is this 9 second zone?
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... yes let me give you the relevant log for this one sec
Neela Blaisdale: I wonder if it would be easier for me to remember if I just did it when I did and stopped feeling guilty for not going it eery 15 min
Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/..._The_blackness
Adams Rubble: yes Neela
Gaya Ethaniel: yes definitely Neela
Neela Blaisdale: I love the idea of doing it when needed, that works much better for me
Neela Blaisdale: Thanks Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: np :)
We agree to no guilt and no forcing it
Prosper Telling: Yeah, I don't think guilt should come out of this as a by-product.
Gaya Ethaniel: definitely Neela. I struggling with myself stopping meditation (stopped doing it for about 5 years and started again about a month ago) and feeling guilty but my teacher said no point forcing oneself to mediate or practise
Neela Blaisdale: Yes I tend to take everything too seriously, big problem
Gaya Ethaniel: struggled*
Neela Blaisdale: Yes the forcing becomes counterproductive and whatever it is becomes a burden
Gaya Ethaniel: i felt an itch for starting meditation again and i just waited for that moment
Gaya Ethaniel: yes
Adams Rubble: All of our tasks in life are like that
genesis Zhangsun: thanks Gaya
Adams Rubble: we are most productive when we want to do something
genesis Zhangsun: that helped
Gaya Ethaniel: np gen hope it explains a bit about me using 'zone' - not sure how else i could describe it :)
genesis Zhangsun: its a good word
Gaya Ethaniel: yes Adams true
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
genesis Zhangsun: and when we wait for that right moment
Prosper Telling: I find my meditation is a end result of a lot of internal things going on... otherwise I'm just occupying space rather than just sitting.
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... Prosper explain a little more pls?
Gaya Ethaniel: you mean counter productive if not right time?
Prosper Telling: Yes... It's not something I can guilt myself into or trick myself into doing.
Prosper Telling: If I can't commit to what I'm doing I'm better off doing the dishes.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
and we start discussing different types of meditation
Gaya Ethaniel does washing dishes up meditation at times too
Adams Rubble: :)
Neela Blaisdale: Yes one can strive to be mindful while doing anything
Gaya Ethaniel: i've found that 'meditation' i do is slightly different from 9 sec
Neela Blaisdale: How so Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: in meditation, i tend to focus on 'mindfulness' being in present and in 9 sec, i do 'stepping aside'
Gaya Ethaniel: i'd say 9 sec is a little more intense than my normal practice
Neela Blaisdale: Yes. And for me the 9 sec also feels different, there's a sense of merging, although I'm not 100% certain what it is I'm merging with
Gaya Ethaniel nods
genesis Zhangsun: could be everything?
genesis Zhangsun: with which you are merging?
Neela Blaisdale: Yes could be
Gaya Ethaniel: haven't experienced 'merging' yet - could you describe a bit more Neela?
Prosper Telling: As Pureland Buddhist I chant the name of Amitabha , rather often but the 9 sec for me is recalling that our nature is the same... There is niether self nor other, individual ego or independent lifespan.
Neela introduces a sense of connectedness
Neela Blaisdale: For me there's s vague sense of connection, connectedness
Neela Blaisdale: Not exactly sure of to what or whom. Also heightened sense awareness
Gaya Ethaniel: does it ever feel like everything is get wiped out?
Neela Blaisdale: else?
Adams Rubble: I have been feeling a sense of connectedness the past few days
Gaya Ethaniel: wiped out into 'blank'*
Adams Rubble: and it lasts over a period of a few stops
Adams Rubble: maybe for an hour or two
Neela Blaisdale: No it doesn't feel that everyting else is gone, actually evrything else seems more vivid, for instance I notice more sounds
Gaya Ethaniel: yes Adams, think Pia also raised the point of being connected
Gaya Ethaniel: oh i c Neela
Neela Blaisdale: Yes for me part of being is this connectedness
Adams Rubble: Have all of you had outside meditation coaching?
Gaya Ethaniel: a couple of classes ages ago Adams
Neela Blaisdale: I have, gone to classes and workshops
Prosper Telling: Yes here.
Neela Blaisdale: It was very helpful in many ways
genesis Zhangsun: no
Adams Rubble: Thanks, I hear things that I have not experienced from so many of you
Neela Blaisdale: There are many resources for information on places or people near you who teach
Adams Rubble: I did no formal meditation until I started here 8 weeks ago
Adams Rubble: this is all new to me
Adams Rubble: It is wonderful to hear about your experiences
...and we come back to Christianity
Gaya Ethaniel: christians do meditation i understand Adams
Adams Rubble: and different ways of looking at things
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Adams Rubble: Well, that's the funny thing Gaya
Adams Rubble: I gave up Christianity over 40 years ago
Gaya Ethaniel: my aunt (a nun) told me about repeating a certain phrase while meditating.... hm let me find it
Adams Rubble: but now I am finding the language so helpful to understanding what everyone is doing here
genesis Zhangsun: so God is the finger then pointing Adams?
genesis Zhangsun: you are not a Christian anymore?
Neela Blaisdale: It was interesting Adams because until you and Pema had that dialogue I didn't connect any of this to religion
Adams Rubble: I am a bit confused on that point Gen
Adams Rubble: Somedays I think I may be :)
Adams Rubble: I understand the concept of God
Gaya Ethaniel: sorry can't find the phrase Adams but i understand it to be similar practice to Pure Land Buddhism
Prosper Telling: Ah, the G-word... I think that might be the besy definition of God I've heard in a while ;-)
Adams Rubble: and I have had real mystical-like experiences the past couple of weeks
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Neela Blaisdale: Very exciting!
Adams Rubble: yes Neela
genesis Zhangsun: Only meant Adams that perhaps God, the concept of God is pointing you in the direction
Gaya Ethaniel remembers Pema 'Being = divinity'
genesis Zhangsun: but "God" as known by Christians is not the be all end all for you
Yes Gen, I expect that is the case
Neela Blaisdale: Well circling back to our earlier discussion if you ever undestand how to induce them let us know!
Adams Rubble: well, I am open to that suggestopm
genesis Zhangsun: I don't know it was a question
Gaya Ethaniel: what works for me may not work for you though Neela
Adams Rubble: Pema speaks the language of Christianity very well to me
Gaya Ethaniel: i tend to try out what people say here
Adams Rubble: Lots of thoughts there :)
Prosper Telling: Yeah, I lack karmic affinity with Christianity.
Adams Rubble: Ok Neela :)
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Oh Prosper, could you tell me more about that feeling?
Adams Rubble: yes, Gen
Prosper Telling: Well, I would in my youth blame Christianity... I could go on and on about it's short comings and oxymorons...
Prosper Telling: but as I got older, noticed how I could overlook similar problems in other faiths, I found that it was in this case more about me.
Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
Prosper Telling: It just never clicked.
genesis Zhangsun: Well I must be going friends!
genesis Zhangsun: Thank you for sharing
Gaya Ethaniel: good day genesis
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Prosper Telling: Thank you
Adams Rubble: Good to see you again, Gen. bye :)
genesis Zhangsun: bye
Neela Blaisdale: Goodbye Genesis
genesis Zhangsun: Bye everyone!
Prosper Telling: Bye
Genesis left but her avatar's body remained behind while we move on to religions in general
Gaya Ethaniel: i also realised that all main religions point to same direction Prosper
Adams Rubble: I understand what you are saying Prosper
Gaya Ethaniel: just we are receptive to a particular religion or philosophy, if not at all
Adams Rubble: I do not accept the concept of sin
Prosper Telling: Yeah, proud member of the Unitarian Universalist here, so me too.
Gaya Ethaniel: what's Unitarian Universalist? is it like agnostism?
Prosper Telling: All powerful is one of my sticking points.
Adams Rubble: But Being seems to be all powerful
Gaya Ethaniel: agnosticism*
Prosper Telling: Ah, no. There is a long history (and even longer explanation) but check out www.uua.org for an answer
Gaya Ethaniel: cool thanks
Prosper Telling: But Being acts through attraction rather than domination...
Prosper Telling: Very process theology here.
Neela Blaisdale: But being seems somehow more benevolent. Also being feels to me like I also have a small part it making it what it is. Kind of an obligation to all thing but from me not someone or thng outside of me
Adams Rubble: My Christian God is benevelent, not dominating. I am not very good with theology :)
Gaya Ethaniel: i'm surprised to hear that being give you such feelings... wonder why i can't ascribe any such emotions to Being
Prosper Telling: And that's back to it being about me.
Adams Rubble: We find what fits us :)
Neela notes that religions have been misused
Neela Blaisdale: Also I get a little nervous with the history of things that have happened in the name of God. Never heard of that re being
Prosper Telling: And this lifetime is such a tiny part of the bigger pic
Adams Rubble: People have been using "God" for their own ends for a long time
Gaya Ethaniel: not sure what you mean Neela, pls give an example?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... like crusade
Adams Rubble: like George Bush
Neela Blaisdale: just that in the past wars have been started for "religious "reasons, like the Crusades
Gaya Ethaniel: i c
Neela Blaisdale: Yes to both
Gaya Ethaniel: gives bad name to religion!
Adams Rubble: haha
Adams Rubble: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: that's how human beings are in general i guess, we can't help it
We continued our discussion about religion being misused by mankind for a bit longer
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