2008.08.03 07:00 - Pride: Attachment or Ego?

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    Fael, Gaya, Pia, Wol and I shared the guardianship. I (Adams) posted the log and am reposnsible for the comments

    Fael and Gaya were there when I arrived; we exchange greetings and a landmark

    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fael :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... lovely dress Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: one of my fav colour combination - green & red
    Adams Rubble: Thanks, it is a Ryusho original
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh... must visit his shop one day
    Adams Rubble: He has a Korean dress
    Fael Illyar: it's around 70 meters from here :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh... pls send me lm
    Fael Illyar: 70 meters east :)
    Fael Illyar: or maybe 90 ... well, somewhere between I guess
    Gaya Ethaniel accepted your inventory offer.
    Gaya Ethaniel: cool cheers Adams
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar doesn't have a landmark there.
    Adams Rubble: It's OK Fael, she got one :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, as long as you know where it is, you'll get there fast enough by teleporting here :)
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adams Rubble knows Fael is much better finding her away around PaB lands
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... severe lag here
    Adams Rubble: yes, lag
    Gaya Ethaniel nods re: Fael popping in and out of places quick
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: Oh right, I caught up with your blog a few days ago, Adams but I'm now out of date again
    Adams Rubble: Yes, it's going bananas right now
    Adams Rubble: But it will soon settle down
    Gaya Ethaniel: at work?
    Adams Rubble: I had one of those talks among myself yesterday which led to a bit of insight
    Gaya Ethaniel: Ah second discussion
    Adams Rubble: Yup

    Pia arrived and I launch into an issue that is much on my mind this morning. The past two days I had learned about a big personal attachment in my way, pride. I wanted to know all I could about it. Later I found a comment from Pema on my blog which answered some of the questions I was raising here. Still, pride made for an interesting discussion

    Adams Rubble: Hello Pia
    Adams Rubble: Actually I much interested in the issue of pride if anyone cares to discuss it
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pia
    Gaya Ethaniel: why not, let's
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: I guess I should try to catch up on the blog first :)
    Adams Rubble: Stim once gave us a tool to use against anger
    Adams Rubble: no need Fael
    Adams Rubble: It's kind of personal anyway
    Adams Rubble: If you do not understand why someone is doing something to you
    Adams Rubble: then be compassionate to their lack of understanding
    Adams Rubble: that is good for anger
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: what about a tool for pride?
    Adams Rubble: lag again

    Gaya, Pia and Fael begin to offer their view of pride

    Gaya Ethaniel: well... things make me feel humble is when i realise how much i don't know...
    Gaya Ethaniel: how little i do know
    Fael Illyar: I think pride is the flip side of the same coin as self hate.
    Fael Illyar: the opposite in a way
    Fael Illyar: both being equally illusory
    Gaya Ethaniel ponders on Fael's comments...
    Adams Rubble: self love
    Adams Rubble: hmmm

    Maxine rezzes among us momentarily and we exchange greetings

    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... would be helpful if you could give me an example of being proud Adams. There can be a shade of pride...
    Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine
    Adams Rubble: Hello Maxine
    Pia Iger: Pride is also from the lack of understanding... some kind of blindness.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble: yes Pia, I can see that
    Maxine Walden: hi, all, just coming in to check my download, but not staying long right now, will see you at the guardian meeting soon, sorry if I am being disruptive
    Pia Iger: np, Maxine
    Adams Rubble: No no, good to see you Maxine. Hope you had a nice vacation :)

    We continue

    Gaya Ethaniel: different shaes of pride*
    Maxine Walden: see you later
    Adams Rubble: Well in some cases pride can be useful
    Adams Rubble: like in making people do a good job
    Adams Rubble: I am thinking of disruptive pride
    Adams Rubble: as in conversation
    Adams Rubble: disruption
    Adams Rubble: "I know this, haha"
    Fael Illyar: self love/hate becomes a disruption if one values it too much.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... would that be because of pride or willingness to share? for a stranger, i won't bother spekaing my mind so much...
    Adams Rubble: I am thinking real disruption I think....inserting irrelevant comments to show one's knowledge
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adams Rubble: You all are helping me shape this

    Gaya notes that comments arising from the pride from one person might be useful to someone else

    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... maybe it could appear as irrevelent but are you sure that everyone else feels the same?
    Adams Rubble: Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Adams Rubble: I don't know what you mean
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok maybe i offer an example, a personal one
    Gaya Ethaniel: This person has been viewed as 'disruptive' in coversation, firing 'knowledge & opinions'
    Pia Iger: (I think Gaya is saying there are real disruptive pride, also just perceived pride)
    Gaya Ethaniel: But one of the things this person shouted out made me have an 'eureka' moment
    Gaya Ethaniel: What one sees as disruptive may not always mean the same to everyone else.... that's all I'm saying
    Adams Rubble: Ah, I am thinking personally, about pride geting in the way...as an attachment
    Gaya Ethaniel: unless we know fully the intention of the speaker
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes... some people may feel 'impulse' to speak in that case maybe you're right about being pride... but still i cannot be entirely sure
    Fael Illyar: Just because something is said to bolster one's pride doesn't mean it's useless. It's just very likely to be. Also it's rather hard to say whether it really was said because of pride.
    Fael Illyar: or just pride.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Fael that was what i meant, took so many sentences!
    Adams Rubble: I understand what you both are saying and it is a good point

    I turn it back to the issue of ones own pride

    Adams Rubble: I was thinking more of tools to deal with ones own pride when it is recognized
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Pia. Precisely my point also (pride and perceived pride)
    Fael Illyar: but I guess Adams is interested in internal pride, not pride perceived in others
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... one's own pride ok
    Adams Rubble: yes Fael
    Pia Iger: ok. let's deal with our own pride:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: so how do you recognise when you are being proud Adams? Again speaking for the its own sake?
    Adams Rubble: Well, in my case it is usually much afterwards
    Adams Rubble: but I will give you an example of one I recognized right away
    Gaya Ethaniel: k

    I try an example but it confuses the issue some more

    Adams Rubble: Last night I was admiring Storm's new pavilion
    Adams Rubble: and Sorm made reference to something I said
    Faenik: could be
    Adams Rubble: and I said that it is something every architectural historian would know
    Adams Rubble: you may or may not recognize that as pride
    Adams Rubble: but I did
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... is Storm well versed in history of architecture?
    Adams Rubble: and I said 'ouch' to myself
    Fael Illyar: you feel pride about being an architectural historian?
    Pia Iger: I don't see it being disruptive.
    Adams Rubble: Gaya, I don't know but I am giving an example of a way pride made a statement
    Fael Illyar: so you feel pride because that sentence puts you there as a hidden assumption?
    Gaya Ethaniel: no not disruptive... guess Adams said 'ouch' because she were worried about how Storm may have felt by her comments?
    Adams Rubble: Pia, it was disruptive to my own thought process
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Gaya Ethaniel: well I'm thinking here Adams 'is this really pride issue or not? Let's dig it a bit deeper' hence my clarification questions...

    I try a more general example but my first example won't go away. I later realized that this was a "one way" example as far as I knew. The comment was not aimed at Storm or a reaction to anything he said. It just sounded snooty to me. And it was the last example that had to illustrate the point

    Adams Rubble: I have gotten in stupid arguments in PaB sessions by making statements that are disruptive :)
    Fael Illyar: for you or for others?
    Adams Rubble: Probably both Fael
    Adams Rubble: Let me step backwards a little
    Adams Rubble: I am identifying identity/attachments
    Adams Rubble: Last night my sub-conscious brought out this one
    Adams Rubble: What I was identifying as "self" was actually pride
    Adams Rubble: Now that I have done that
    Adams Rubble: I want to able to recognize pride
    Adams Rubble: and learn how to deal with it
    Gaya Ethaniel is thinking what kind of comments Storm made to make Adams feel 'defensive' or 'proud' enough to say 'it is something every architectural historian would know'
    Adams Rubble: hehe, Gaya. it concerned an oculus
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adams Rubble: faenik!!?!
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Fael Illyar: what's with this reaction to Faenik's line?
    Gaya Ethaniel: but i'm not so interested in the subject matter which brought up your comments to Storm, interested in how Storm said to you that resulted in you saying that statement...
    Adams Rubble: His reation to "oculus"

    Wol completed our group making it a fivesome; I answer Gya's question and then we exchange our greetings

    Adams Rubble: Gaya, we were having a polite conversation when pride spoke through me
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
    Adams Rubble: Hi Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pia Iger: Hi Wol
    Wol Euler: good morning, grey friends :-)
    Adams Rubble: Mybe only I knew it, but I recognized it
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry Adams, I'm going to keep quiet until I understand how pride relates to your experiences... at the moment it's very confusing

    I am truly sorry that I am making this more muddled but Pia comes to my rescue but then we go back to "self"

    Adams Rubble: Yes, this is new to me and I am not doing a good job of describing it
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm happy to listen while you go through the thinking process Adams
    Pia Iger: I understand that Adams realized Pride as ego is in her way. and she wants to know how to deal with this proud self.
    Adams Rubble: yes exactly, Pia. thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh... egoistic
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok got it now
    Gaya Ethaniel: So you want to know how to deal with your ego Adams?
    Fael Illyar: don't we all?
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
    Wol Euler: heheh

    But I am seeing pride as an attachment, not ME

    Adams Rubble: Last night I began to see this an attachment rather than "self"
    Adams Rubble: Dealing with it as "self" seems kimpossib;e
    Adams Rubble: imposible
    Adams Rubble: impossible

    It was impossible to type too and Gaya makes a helpful observation

    Gaya Ethaniel: self is a sum of attachments in a way...
    Adams Rubble: yes Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: but you're right to deal one by one
    Adams Rubble: and we deal with them one by one
    Adams Rubble: yes Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: typed same thing :)
    Fael Illyar: It's probably too much to take on all at once :)
    Pia Iger: As Fael said, either self love/hate is illusory. We are here to learn the true nature of ourselves. The knowing of our truth will disolve pride, or any other illusions.
    Adams Rubble: It si not ME who is puffed up and boastful
    Gaya Ethaniel recently has a few times when she and others type same thing at the same time :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Pia. I think so too, with awareness and understanding, attachment issues will dissolve naturally
    Fael Illyar: at first, my thought was to say "great minds think alike" but it felt a bit stale so I gave up and then it dawned on me. "Being thinks alike"
    Wol Euler smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: again!
    Wol Euler: lol
    Faenik: could be
    Wol Euler: Taoists would say this proves that we are together in the Moment.
    Pia Iger: who said, there is only ONE mind, but we thinks there are individuls.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: it's a great to feel the connection this way
    Adams Rubble: Yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: 1AM session we were talking about differences now we are talking about connections at PaB

    I ask again about tools

    Adams Rubble: Going back a bit...
    Adams Rubble: if there are tools to deal with anger
    Adams Rubble: can we think of something to deal with pride?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've said my piece before 'so much to know yet i know so little' helps me in that department
    Gaya Ethaniel: so much to know - diff people have something unique to offer so makes me more open-minded also
    Pia Iger: yes. Adams. as Stim said, we can ask ourself , "what makes us feel pride/boastful? what did I not see as truth?" those questions.
    Gaya Ethaniel: did you feel when you made that statement to Storm, you were being 'better' in some ways than him Adams?
    Adams Rubble: Good questions, Pia
    Fael Illyar: isn't that what pride is? Feeling better than others? At least the other side of the coin is feeling worse than others.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Isen said something funny about this. one sec
    Gaya Ethaniel: Tahuti Thor: and people fight over the concepts Wol Euler nods at Quilty. Isen Enzo: My concepts are better than your concepts! Isen Enzo: are too! Isen Enzo: are no! Gaya Ethaniel smiles Fael Illyar: :) Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Adams Rubble: Well, I can't honestly say I felt that, Fael and Gaya but I really do not think it is important unless it has to do with Pia's (Stim's) questions
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes... at the end of day I agree with Pia that (sorry for repeating) with understanding/awareness such attachment issues will dissolve naturally
    Fael Illyar: it doesn't necessarily have to be targeted at a specific person
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: yes, thank you Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe we don't have a 'tool' as you're looking for here
    Gaya Ethaniel: if that's not how you felt... I'm still confused here Adams. Did you feel defensive when you make that statement then?

    Ah, back to the first example. I try to address Gaya's questions while we discuss a shining example

    Pia Iger: as a good example, we can take Pema. He definitely is knowledgable. But he does not take his pride in that. I think part of reason is he can see the whole picture, can see who he really is.
    Fael Illyar: it could be just feeling better than a vague idea of a group of "would be architectural historians".
    Gaya Ethaniel: Strom must have hurt your pride to prompt such a comment imo
    Adams Rubble: Pema is a wonderful example of someone who has "pride" under control :)
    Adams Rubble: no no Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel takes her hands off keyboard slowly
    Wol Euler is now very curious to read the transcript of what whe missed :-)
    Adams Rubble: Please stop trying to analyze the situation
    Pia Iger: but I don't think he is doing any 'control'.
    Adams Rubble: Ok Pia :)
    Adams Rubble: But a wonderful example!!!
    Fael Illyar: Yes, there probably isn't anything there for Pema to "control" :)
    Adams Rubble: It was a bad example which I used because I used it in my blog
    Pia Iger: I meant once he can see himself in true light, there is not much of issue of pride for him to 'work on'.
    Adams Rubble: I only wanted to show a moment when I recognized this attachment in an admittedly mild form
    Wol Euler: / ty
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Pia Iger: that is great, Adams!
    Gaya Ethaniel nods

    That settled, we discuss ways in which we identify these kinds of issues

    Pia Iger: I see this is the benefits of 9-sec, that can shed lights on our mild, minor emotional moves.
    Pia Iger: expose it, then we can learn to handle it.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: Yes, that is what I hope to do
    Adams Rubble: This was a big attachment that I knew was there but didn't fully recognize until last night
    Pia Iger: that is a good thing! the recognition.
    Fael Illyar: big, slow and sneaky :=
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pia Iger: I myself found some of these sneaky things in my mind during 9-sec. Feel good catching them!
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'me too'
    Adams Rubble: That is great you can do it in the 9 seconds
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adams Rubble: Mine seem to come to me through dreams
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh.. that's interesting Adams
    Fael Illyar: Whatever the messenger, the message comes through :)
    Adams Rubble: yes Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Pia Iger: (9-sec is a term only. may actually takes a half hour)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fael Illyar: Perhaps, in your case, the path of least resistance for the messages in dreams.
    Wol Euler: could be
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I am learning that may be the case, Fael

    And a great number of thoughts every day

    Pia Iger: The best part is that you can notice it and pay attention to the message. To think, we have tons of thoughts fleet by everyday, but most time, we don't pay attention at all.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Wol Euler nods
    Adams Rubble: Yes Pia
    Gaya Ethaniel: again! Wol you're a mind reader
    Wol Euler smiles
    Adams Rubble can't even blog them all
    Gaya Ethaniel writes all in diary instead
    Fael Illyar rarely writes anything at all.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok ok you've got fantastic memory Fael
    Wol Euler mues while walking, and hgas forgotten by the time she gets home.s
    Fael Illyar: ... umm, I wasn't trying to highlight that part.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hope it was helpful Adams though I couldn't really offer much advice
    Fael Illyar: but you just made me realize I'm looking at that very one sided.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Pia Iger wants to write diary too, but lack of continuity.
    Adams Rubble: My blog has provided some discipline for me
    Gaya Ethaniel: well i let that attachment go Pia - if i don't write a few days so what it's ok, i just write when i have impluse to do so
    Adams Rubble: To anser Gaya's question, yes you all raised some ideas I had not considered
    Adams Rubble: answer
    Gaya Ethaniel: cool something to chew on :)

    Then Fael surprises me with an observation about me gleaned from my blog

    Fael Illyar: Adams, perhaps the exhaustion is feeling the presence but keeping yourself separate? the effort required for that
    Adams Rubble has no idea what fael just said
    Adams Rubble: ?
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: reading your log. you've twice mentioned getting exhausted by connecting.
    Fael Illyar: uh blog

    Gaya offers the same advice as Pema was later to do

    Gaya Ethaniel: so you mean Adams should cut some slack on herself Fael?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Be kind to herself and patient to herself etc
    Fael Illyar: Um, no, I mean that the exhaustion she got after the vision was the price of staying out of the 'oneness' while feeling the presence of God.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... after that experience ok i see
    Wol Euler: well, that is IMHO always good advice for everyone :-)
    Adams Rubble: Fael, what an interesting insight
    Gaya Ethaniel always cuts a generous slack on herself

    Time to go and Pia helps us to "go with smiles" (Güle güle)[Turkish farewell]

    Adams Rubble: Unfortunately it appears it is time for us to move :(
    Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, Guardian meeting
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for the conversation
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it was interesting :)
    Adams Rubble: Thanks all
    Pia Iger: feel like Charles' angels
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: see you at HoA :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Pia Iger: Action!
    Wol Euler: it was interesting, thank you all. Sorry I came late.

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