2008.08.05 19:00 - Challenges and benefits of the external world

Guardian for this discussion was Sylectra and the comments are hers.

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi Syl!
Sylectra Darwin: hey
Starseed Xue: Hello
Threedee Shepherd: hi, still in "greeting mode"
Starseed Xue: Namaste
Sylectra Darwin: For some reason I thought we were meeting at the new pavilion
doug Sosa: hi.
Sylectra Darwin: Hey Doug
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh - one way teleporter, huh?
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Adelene Dawner: Hey, there's a second part to that quote: "Don't try to use the other machines, they all belong to the same union."
Sylectra Darwin: No - mixed up teleporter.
Sylectra Darwin: grin
Threedee Shepherd: havn't heard that part before :)
Sylectra Darwin: I see a foggy nimbus over there!
Sylectra Darwin: Hi Threedee
Threedee Shepherd: Hello Syl, I don't think we met yet?
Sylectra Darwin: No I don't think so, I am relatively new.
Sylectra Darwin: Good to meet you!
Threedee Shepherd: and you....
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Sylectra Darwin: I was going to go with the nimbus look myself, it's so chic these days.
Threedee Shepherd: I'm usually here in other garb, but decided to be different tonite and appear human :)
Sylectra Darwin: haha
Sylectra Darwin: I need a pic
doug Sosa: same beard.
Sylectra Darwin: No one will believe us.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, the felines seem to be well represented, nonetheless
Sylectra Darwin: grin
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (threedee was a lion the other day)
Sylectra Darwin: you noticed my cheetah tail!
Sylectra Darwin: Oh cool, I heard
doug Sosa: yes, almost holds you up.
Sylectra Darwin: Did anyone get a pic of threedee as a lion?
doug Sosa: a wonderful lion.
Threedee Shepherd: I'll be back that way tomorrow :D
Threedee Shepherd: Or I could do a transformation on the spot.....
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: or, we could hold a class picture day
Sylectra Darwin: oooo
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: everyone could put on their sunday best
Sylectra Darwin: sometimes it's fun to do that!
Sylectra Darwin: So I had a very exciting start to my day
doug Sosa: what /
Threedee Shepherd: indeed, please tell
Sylectra Darwin: Well yesterday I got off work and we had temps over 100 degrees F
Sylectra Darwin: My car battery was totally dead.
Sylectra Darwin: A nice man in the parking lot gave me a jump.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i've heard of snow days, but not heat days
Starseed Xue: theres a joke there
Sylectra Darwin: So I drove the car home, parked it facing down the driveway, and called the auto shop for an appt the next morning.
Sylectra Darwin: grin
Sylectra Darwin: The next morning I thought I could just clutch start it, like I have done before with other cars.
doug Sosa: the man in the parking lot was yesterday but the great day was today!
Sylectra Darwin: This one was so dead it wouldn't clutch start.
Sylectra Darwin: haha
Sylectra Darwin: So I was stuck in the middle of my street pointing diagonally and there was also a water main break uphill.
Sylectra Darwin: I was ankle deep in my work clothes in muddy water.
Threedee Shepherd: getting more and more interesting...
Sylectra Darwin: I don't have towing service so I was thinking, okay I will just jump it using our other vehicle.
Sylectra Darwin: But no matter what I tried it still wasn't enough juice.
Threedee Shepherd: in the water????
Sylectra Darwin: in the water.
Sylectra Darwin: I was like, I wonder if I can safely connect these cables in the water?
Sylectra Darwin shrugs.
doug Sosa: glad you are here!
Sylectra Darwin: I did a lot of hitting of the poles with the cables to see what would happen.
Adelene Dawner: Yes!
Sylectra Darwin: hehe
Sylectra Darwin: So I finally had to give up and take the other vehicle to get a new battery.
Sylectra Darwin: No one was there to help me so i figured out how to put it in myself.
Threedee Shepherd: good job!
Sylectra Darwin: After that I felt like I could conquer anything at work!
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Sylectra Darwin: thanks!
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: ;-) jump started your life instead of your car?
Sylectra Darwin: hehe
Sylectra Darwin: Nothing like adversity...
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and, did you remember to pause during htis ordeal? is PaB what allowed you to keep your composure... (leading question)
Sylectra Darwin: haha, Fred!
Sylectra Darwin: Yes.
Sylectra Darwin: That's why I did not panic.
Sylectra Darwin: I only dropped a bolt once.
Sylectra Darwin: I heard recently that if you are on a quest to change your life, and you want something badly enough, a challenge will present itself to you.
Sylectra Darwin: If you overcome the challenge it becomes a symbolic strengthener of the will.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: PaB: It starts dead cars. or better, "it gets you where you're going"
Sylectra Darwin: lol
Threedee Shepherd: "it moves you along the path"
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: its cheaper than AAA
Sylectra Darwin: yeah
Sylectra Darwin: I think I will get AAA
Starseed Xue: AAA is cheap
Threedee Shepherd: and has been VERY useful over the years, for me
Sylectra Darwin: Especially to help with towing.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: so, are you on a quest to change your life?
Sylectra Darwin: most definitely.
Sylectra Darwin: Starting this year.
Sylectra Darwin: It's a sort of a carpe diem thing following the death of my mother.
Threedee Shepherd: from or to? or both?
Sylectra Darwin: From AND to
Sylectra Darwin: I am wanting to do more with my career as an online editor, maybe work in virtual worlds, and live in a new state
Sylectra Darwin: My husband and I are splitting amicably after 8 years
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: ... of being ;-)?
Sylectra Darwin: We are just zooming along different paths.
Sylectra Darwin: of being, yes Fred!
Sylectra Darwin: :)
Sylectra Darwin: My goal this year is to connect with others.
doug Sosa: and i just get to talk to apple help desk! bye!
Sylectra Darwin: Doug disappeared.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: mmm... maybe the apple genius' could have helped us on our quest.
Sylectra Darwin: hmmmm
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Sylectra Darwin: So what else is going on?
Threedee Shepherd: sounds like what else is an understatement, youo are in the midst of so much...

Mystical birds and other things: Friedrich had noticed Threedee's shoulder pet, which I had to imagine was there because Threedee never fully rezzed for me.

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: threedee, do you want to introduce your traveling companion?
Threedee Shepherd: "shoulder boid" a "familiar" in mystical terms
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: aye, maytee
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: joking - i actually am unfamiliar w/ the symbolic signifcance of familiars like you describe
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: what belief system(s)?
Threedee Shepherd: magicians and such had them as "assistants" who saw through a different lens
Threedee Shepherd: Medieval Europe, I think
Sylectra Darwin: Is it a raven? I don't see anything
Threedee Shepherd: crow or raven
Sylectra Darwin: Neat.
Sylectra Darwin: In native american culture, the totem animal raven stands for magic.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: now adelene just needs a midget on her shoulder...
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: And the crow stands for law.
Sylectra Darwin: Oooh, pretty Adelene!
Threedee Shepherd: from good old Wikipedia: "In early modern English superstition, a familiar spirit, imp, or familiar (from Middle English familiar, related to family) is an animal-shaped spirit who serves for witchery, a demon, or other magician-related subjects. Familiars were imagined to serve their owners as domestic servants, farmhands, spies, and companions, in addition to helping bewitch enemies. These spirits were also said to inspire artists and writers (compare Muse). Familiars are considered an identifying characteristic of early modern English witchcraft, and serve as one feature setting it apart from continental or New World witchcrafts."
Sylectra Darwin: wow

Differences between eastern and western philosophies

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: any questions or observatoins about the practice, anyone?
Threedee Shepherd: I was in a restaurant this evening and used a lull to catch a "9-sec" a lady sat down at a nearby table with a dour look on her face. I imagined her smiling (see didn't see me) and she suddenly smiled.
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: ;-)
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: projective play - we haven't talked much about that...
Sylectra Darwin: Threedee that is amazing. Can you do that with traffic lights?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: mostly inward focused.
Threedee Shepherd: no, but you should see me finding parking spaces!
Sylectra Darwin: yeah!
Sylectra Darwin: That's good clean livin
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: to me that brings up a theme I have been thinking about lately in the context of PaB conversatoins...
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: in regards to desire and willfullness
Threedee Shepherd nods
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: not sure how many buddists are in the room, but this strikes me as a deep divide between occidental and abrahamic philisophies Friedrich Ochsenhorn: feels like it keeps /almost/ coming up here, but its hard for me to wrap my mind around
Threedee Shepherd: interesting. I am just about to read about that in a book just ordered, The Jew and The Lotus, which is about a meeting of some Jewish philosophers and the Dqalai Lama about 10 years ago.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i don't read the logs daily, but i can't think of an example offhand of anyone talking about using the pab as a moment ot affect change in the world around them
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: external world or another person
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (i know the title, but haven't read that book. looking forward to your comments)
Threedee Shepherd: I see my part of Being as integral to action in the world. For now I have been using PaB more to explore that Being, knowing my actions and I hope the world, will benefit.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: I happen to agree wholeheartedly. Play as Acting, not just seeing or being.
Sylectra Darwin: Is it possible that, rather than effecting change in the external world, by doing the practice we just become more attuned and connected to everything and thus can experience synchronicity?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: for sure. or, similarly, its a stroke in the cycle
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, not an end in and of itself.
Sylectra Darwin: a stroke in the cycle...can you elaborate?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: pausing and tuning into being, in order to better judge change and action
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: btw - the concept of wu wei surely factors into this conversation somewhere, which has come up here before, but i don't know much about
Threedee Shepherd: I am Jewish and know its traditions well. It is easy to see differences with Buddhist/Eastern and the Abrahamic tradition. I hope to emphasize commonalities as I learn. For example the ancient scholar Hillel has a famous teaching: "If I am not for myself, who will be? If I am for myself only, what am I? And if not now, When?"
Sylectra Darwin: Threedee, the questions you ask and the learning you seek will be a powerful combination for you, for sure.
Threedee Shepherd: thank you, I will try to be on multiple parts of the path
Sylectra Darwin: Very nice, and I have my work cut out for me to keep up with all of you in the conversation!
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: sorry, i wastn't trying to fixate or nitpick differences - just trying to get a perspective on some of the assumptions in outlook
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: in the hope of some sort of synthesis?
Threedee Shepherd: not to be sorry. I have been poondering just that for recent days.
Sylectra Darwin: questions are good. sometimes they are better than answers.

Threedee Shepherd: I am imagining, for now, assymptoting to a similar place, from different starting points.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: for sure. but a provokative way to formulate the question, is how is the striving for enlightenment all that different from the striving of a heroin user
Threedee Shepherd: So Friedrich, I hope to come back to this again with more questions for discussion in a little while.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: if its all inwardly focsed, on seeing as being (likely a gross charicature)
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but it does seem quite easy to get very wraped up in the pleasure of experiencing the wholness and oneness of being

Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Threedee Shepherd: I don't think the Toa accepts striving in any form, and implies other frames of reference for such action.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, to your earlier point Sly, its even a hard question to ask
Threedee Shepherd: Tao
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i can't seem to get it out correctly
Threedee Shepherd: keep asking....
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think this one will take months, if not years to formulate.... ;-)
Adelene Dawner read 'toa' as LoA, ans was going to say 'yes, exactly.' ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: The Dalai Lama talks much about Happiness and its positive effects, of course he has much to say about definiting happiness in ways not just sybarratic (sp?)
Threedee Shepherd: LoA
Threedee Shepherd: ??
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: let me back up and say intuitively, even if there is a difference, it is more a difference in chord or tone, not right or wrong. a matter of taste of style?
Sylectra Darwin: I see
Adelene Dawner: Language of the Absolute - Being, Forever, Infinity, concepts of that nature. The other concept is LoR, language of the relative, which includes such concepts as 'more' and 'less'.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: ok, but then we are talking about the rythms of interatcion between realms
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: how do we, as humans, choose to span absolute and relative worlds, heaven and earht?
Sylectra Darwin: can such a question be answered in the general sense of "us humans" or are there millions of different answers to your question?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: sure, but are there pattersn or regularties? some people are rooted in one realm, or the other, obvlivious or ignoring the other

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: so, do these practices and belief systems correspond to styles of engagement with these realms?
Sylectra Darwin: ....unless of course they're not.
Sylectra Darwin: grins
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: ;-P
Threedee Shepherd: I think yes, styles of engagement with Being
Sylectra Darwin: Give us examples, Fred.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn decides he needs to light up his pipe for this conversatoin....
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, take the monk in the monestary
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: engrossed in their labor
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: or meditations
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: there are surely perspectives that speak to the essentialness of that work, and even was that their inner transformation might support external developments
Threedee Shepherd: yes

Exquisite Corpse, anyone?

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (not sure where this is going.... )
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: can we change this to a game of existie coprse?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i'll start the sentence...
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: someone else continues
Sylectra Darwin claps
Threedee Shepherd: existe corpse?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: sorry, really packing this pipel
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and, i can't spell
Threedee Shepherd: oh Andrea
Sylectra Darwin: Oh, it's Mad Libs!
Threedee Shepherd: ...the poet commentator who named his journal that, and now I see the Wiki reference ...
Threedee Shepherd: I am sorry that I will need to go in just a few minutes, and really want to continue this discussion, perhaps tomorrow...
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, mad libs where everyone gets a blank ;-)
Sylectra Darwin: I too have to go, but it sounds so fun, Friedrich!
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: sounds good. not sure i will be here tomorrow night, but soon
Sylectra Darwin: We'll have to start it at the beginning of a PaB session.
Sylectra Darwin: Oh good!
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Sylectra Darwin: Very intersting.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: k. but, i have been seeing other groups actually pick up where they left off.
Threedee Shepherd: OK, we promise not to solve it in your absence ;)
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: so, we don't necessarily need to start over fresh
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: haha
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: if you managet to figure out my question, i wil be very appreciative
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: infinitely
Sylectra Darwin: hmmm
Sylectra Darwin: Well, i must be off.
Sylectra Darwin: I have the chat log unless you want to stay and chat and add to it?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: g'night!
Adelene Dawner: I need to go, too. See you all tomorrow. ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: g'night
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think i will get outta here too
Sylectra Darwin: okay, very good then
Sylectra Darwin: night all