2008.08.11 01:00 – Wonderful SL friends and happiness

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    Gaya was on call for this meeting. No additional comments from Gaya however, please add yours if willing.

    Adelene Dawner: You has a fish :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes he's called Bubbly. I'm practising having a pet I think
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: good morning, gaya, adelene
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good morning Wol.
    Adelene Dawner: 'morning Wol.
    Wol Euler: how are you today?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not too bad Wol thanks :) You?
    Wol Euler: fair to middling, thanks. It's Monday :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yay Monday! :P
    Wol Euler: heheheh, yes ok.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Wol Euler: it's not that bad ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm going out to see some friends today straight after this very happy about that
    Wol Euler: ah, right, the Swiss visitors
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yep!
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry I didn't take this session for you, but Iwasn't sure until Sunday evening wherther I'd be able to get online this morning.
    Wol Euler: Otherwise I would have done so.
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo Moon
    Gaya Ethaniel: Np at all Wol. it was rather a short notice :)
    Wol Euler: phone brb
    Gaya Ethaniel: k
    Moon Fargis: hi all:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Gaya Ethaniel: Moon how are you?
    Moon Fargis: got my cake and my tea.... i am fine thanks :)
    Moon Fargis: and you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Feeling better and better thanks :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: You over the tummy 'bug’?
    Moon Fargis: yep
    Gaya Ethaniel: Coooool
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have you two met? Adele and Moon?
    Moon Fargis: yep she tried to catch my birds in hikari :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Moon. My first laugh for today
    Moon Fargis: so what are you talking about atm?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nothing particular we just got here. Any suggestions?
    Wol Euler: back
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb
    Wol Euler: hello moon
    Gaya Ethaniel: Avastu said something about this yesterday... one sec
    Gaya Ethaniel: [2008/08/10 7:34] Avastu Maruti: anything that arises, arises perfectly
    Moon Fargis: ahm..
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Moon Fargis: perfectly
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adelene Dawner: Hmm
    Adelene Dawner: I'm reading the log from the 8th - Attachments and Compassion.
    Moon Fargis: ahh i can’t find the gesture that fits to this sentence now ;(
    Gaya Ethaniel: What would the gesture be Moon? Pls describe.
    Moon Fargis: noooo hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: Ah... I was in that one Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel laughs out loud
    Adelene Dawner: Yup. And I think I see an assumption - very understandable one - that's being made there.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pls say more
    Adelene Dawner: You and Fael (I think - I should pay more attention to names as I read) seem to be assuming in there that the teaching is that one should avoid attachments... and that's not my understanding. The teaching is that attachments lead to suffering. There's a difference. Some things are worth a little suffering, and, in any case, suffering is part of life.
    Wol Euler nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I know that some 'attachments' are good to have. Hence my quote of Bunan's blog...
    Wol Euler: In my more cynical moments in seems to me that the goal of some such practices is to become a stone.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I was stone once Moon you know... I'm not anymore so Adele I think you misunderstood me there perhaps I wasn't very clear
    Adelene Dawner: I think the point is more that one should be aware of the attachments one chooses to have... be aware that there's a price to things, as there usually is.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yep whole hearted agree Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was thinking about Love last night
    Moon Fargis: hui
    Gaya Ethaniel: How a 'romantic love' is our choice
    Gaya Ethaniel: That is something I'd call an attachment that some people choose and accept the consequences
    Gaya Ethaniel: Kindness, Love and Compassion do share some sort of common ground...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Last line is from me only
    Adelene Dawner: Ah, there's a question for sometime... how is compassion different from kindness?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I have difficulties with words and definitions Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel: Largely in English
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: What are your thoughts guys
    Adelene Dawner: mm-hmm
    Moon Fargis: love is great, it can heal wounds you cant heal yourself
    Wol Euler: my feeling is that compassion is in me, motivating me perhaps to do kindness, which is outside me in the world.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe even in Korean not sure... I left Korea when I was much younger and never had similar discussions like this in Korean so who knows
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's interesting you both Wol and Moon
    Wol Euler: compassion glows, kindness flows :-)
    Adelene Dawner: That tracks with what I was thinking earlier... compassion seems to be a basic drive, a bit like hunger in that way... compassion is the drive, kindness is the fulfilment of the drive - like eating.
    Wol Euler nodds.
    Gaya Ethaniel: and Love Adele?
    Adelene Dawner: That thing you sent me about love basically being attention without fear seemed right.
    Adelene Dawner: Love is Being with someone... attuning yourself to them, I guess you could say.
    Adelene Dawner: But without fear... that does seem true. And it's interesting to me how the states are similar - if I'm loving someone, they have my undivided attention, and if I'm afraid of someone to a large enough degree, they also have my undivided attention.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Could you give us an example that differentiate the two situations you said above?
    Wol Euler: they have similar effects, perhaps?
    Adelene Dawner: Um. Most if not all situations where I'd be that frightened are personal enough that I wouldn't want to share them.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure how the two can produce similar effects yet...
    Gaya Ethaniel: the two situations*
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say you 'love' that person you are scared of?
    Adelene Dawner: No... they're not the same, just similar in that one way.
    Wol Euler smiles. The physiological effects at least: racing pulse, butterflies in the stomach ... :-)
    Adelene Dawner: They're both a little obsessive, I guess you could say. And yes, Wol, that way too. :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok I get it. It's like when I recreate anger in my body by running...
    Gaya Ethaniel: So Love is somewhat distant from Kindness and Compassion in this sense
    Adelene Dawner: Not really... they're definitely related.
    Adelene Dawner: Compassion is the drive, kindness is the action, love is the guide of the action. What you love determines what you're kind to... for a fairly loose definition of 'love', there's definitely a lot more situations that that happens in than just romantic ones.
    Adelene Dawner: And hmm.
    Moon Fargis: see a fly in a spider web, you got compassion, see this fly as someone who died and you might be loved, then you rescue the fly and feel love, thats what buddhism is about, see a beloved beingg in every being
    Wol Euler: !
    Adelene Dawner: Looking at it some more, and thinking of real-world situations... Love and fear are not mutually exclusive. It looks more like that, in most cases, they both exist to some degree toward the same person... they add up to a whole, if that makes sense. (It's 4:30 am, I'm not at my most eloquent.)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So one makes a choic at certain stage... yes?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Adele I have seen it... love and fear at the same time about a person
    Wol Euler: thousands of battered wives would agree, Adelene (not trying to be sarcastic, it's the ultimate example)
    Gaya Ethaniel: choice however consciously but still vountary
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah
    Gaya Ethaniel: unsconsciously*
    Adelene Dawner nods at Wol.
    Adelene Dawner: What do you mean, choice, Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Many typos sorry need to reverse my contact - was hurry to get here :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: When you said Love as a guide
    Gaya Ethaniel: Someone something listens to the guide - the choice
    Adelene Dawner: mmm... I knew that wasn't the best word... channel, maybe? In the sense of a riverbed or something? Love = attention, and what you're paying attention to is naturally what you're going to act toward.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Momentum, focus?
    Adelene Dawner: Focus, yes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok understood what you meant now re: kindness, compassion and love. Adele do you see the process of these three interacting as Moon described?
    Adelene Dawner: Mostly... I think the feeling love comes before the rescue though - seeing the fly without judging it or being afraid of it is the love part, and you have to see the fly, and see it as worthy of rescue, *before* you rescue it.
    Adelene Dawner: And I want to say about worth - everything's worthy. *We* don't always realize or remember that. The failure, when we judge something unworthy, is in us, not the thing being judged.
    Adelene Dawner: And of course in more complicated situations there are times when there are other things that might be more important than being compassionate.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods 'others' actions towards tell a lot of them...'
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: towards us*
    Gaya Ethaniel: So in this sense, 'pity' is a judging thought compared to the three concepts
    Adelene Dawner: Yes... and pity can lead to actions that look like kindness... very much like kindness indeed... but in the long run, I don't think kindness can come from pity.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Now looking back at your second point... what are those situations? [1:47] Adelene Dawner: And of course in more complicated situations there are times when there are other things that might be more important than being compassionate.
    Moon Fargis: ok i have to leave now, see you later
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for dropping by Moon Good day
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler surfaces to say: Bye moon, take care.
    Wol Euler: ah, too late
    Adelene Dawner: Okay, back to the battered wives example - her being compassionate would, I'd say, be rather less important than her taking care of her own need for safety, or her kids' need for safety.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why is she in the relationship?
    Adelene Dawner shrugs.
    Wol Euler: agreed. Oh, that htat is perhaps a difference: you might pity her while doing nothing, but compassion would move you to take ation.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is she really being compassionate?
    Adelene Dawner: In what case, Gaya?
    Adelene Dawner will come back to Wol in a minute.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Battered wives... her being compassionate (towards whom here?) - is she really being compassionate or she is being misguided/pitying the other
    Adelene Dawner: Mmm... okay. I'm in territory that I haven't experienced here, so I'm making a lot of assumptions. One of the assumptions that I'm making is that there *is* some love in that kind of relationship, and that her staying is at least partly out of compassion for him - not wanting to see him hurt by her leaving.
    Adelene Dawner: But I could certainly be wrong.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It could be either way however what I'm trying to get at is this
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why is she staying with this brute? She doesn't see her limit? Or she doesn't see being battered is not as bad as leaving?
    Adelene Dawner: It's a complicated kind of situation, definitely, and everybody's answers are different, I'm sure, and the answers probably vary from minute to minute, too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I guess I'm trying to use this ex to compare what we discussed last night Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's not exact match thou
    Adelene Dawner: No, it's not...
    Gaya Ethaniel: But do you see where I'm trying to go here?
    Adelene Dawner: *Any* attachment will involve some kind of suffering. Some people are willing to put up with more suffering than others, in some situations.
    Wol Euler nods, we search for balances, we make compromises.
    Gaya Ethaniel is also getting ready to step out her house but still here
    Adelene Dawner: I think in the battered wife scenario, that's kind of extreme, and a sign of brokenness on several levels - societal pressure saying that one *has* to be in a relationship, for example, taken too far, or the idea that it's 'wrong' to get a divorce, or misguided compassion, or whatever...
    Wol Euler nods vigorously
    Adelene Dawner: But not every situation where attachment causes suffering is broken.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes i see that
    Gaya Ethaniel: So can we go more specific to your example Adele?
    Wol Euler: (just as a suggestion, we could go elsewhere and turn off the recorder...)
    Adelene Dawner: We can, but I'd wanted to get back to Wol's point.
    Gaya Ethaniel: k
    Adelene Dawner: [1:52] Wol Euler: agreed. Oh, that that is perhaps a difference: you might pity her while doing nothing, but compassion would move you to take action.
    Adelene Dawner: The problem with pity, as I see it, is that it doesn't drive you to really fix the problem at hand.
    Adelene Dawner: Like, ok...
    Adelene Dawner finds an example, one minute.
    Adelene Dawner: I can't think of a good one off the top of my head - but it's a give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish thing. If you pity someone, you'll help them out of their immediate problem - give them a fish - but you won't feel the drive to help them figure out how to avoid that problem in the future, because as soon as their situation has gotten a little better, they're not pitiable any more.
    Adelene Dawner: Compassion goes the whole way, if you let it - you want to see the best for people you love, so you'll want to get to the root of the problem.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pls send me the rest of the log for me to post
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will come back for you Adele tonight
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day
    Adelene Dawner: Thanks, Gaya
    Wol Euler: yes! pity requires that they stand still as an object to be pitied.
    Gaya Ethaniel: My pleasure Adele always
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: bye gaya, have a nice day.
    Adelene Dawner: ^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: You too Wol thanks again for being here
    Adelene Dawner: You're definitely right there, Wol.
    Wol Euler: pity is about me (the pitier) whereas compassion is about you (the ... compassionated?)
    Adelene Dawner: loved :)
    Adelene Dawner: and yes.
    Wol Euler: yse, better.
    Adelene Dawner yawns.
    Wol Euler: this is interesting, I am in am IM at the same time with a friend who is having a panic attack, middle of the night
    Wol Euler: compassion wants to act, pity just observes.
    Adelene Dawner: Yup :)
    Wol Euler: we are all so far from happiness, it seems, and yet it is just over there, at your fingertips.
    Adelene Dawner: yup ^.^
    Wol Euler: I wonder sometimes that "happiness" is so seldom a subject here. Perhaps that is just my mis-reading though.
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think I've seen it discussed directly.
    Adelene Dawner: I'm thinking about compiling a list of dangling threads from the discussions - I'll add that.
    Adelene Dawner: If I get around to it, anyway.
    Wol Euler smiles. That is a od idea.
    Wol Euler: *good
    Wol Euler: not odd :-)
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Wol Euler: because it seems to me (heretical idea) that happiness is a good thing, worth trying to achieve.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Wol Euler: there is some assumption that we are looking for enlightenment here, ABC for instance is unshakeably convinced of that :-)
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think he's the only one.
    Wol Euler: oh no, far from it. Just an example that came to mind.
    Adelene Dawner: But at the same time, I have yet to get a coherent description of 'enlightenment' that actually makes sense as a goal...
    Wol Euler chuckles. Too right.

    (Wol: Pause for quiet contemplation.)

    Wol Euler: bye adelene, I'll send the log to Gaya.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: bye
    Wol Euler: sleep well
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Wol Euler: bye for now
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