2008.08.14 07:00 - Framing the Conversation

Here's the log from the 7am discussion today.  I chose not to comment so you can draw your own inferences, your own meaning.  Cal 

...

Fael Illyar: Hi Cal, Doug
doug Sosa: hi all.
Caledonia Heron: hey there :)
doug Sosa: :)
Caledonia Heron: how's it going today?
Fael Illyar: Good :)
doug Sosa: (doug thinks to himself:I wonder what she means? Like how deep an answer?)
Caledonia Heron: lol Doug .... it's a I'm having my first cup of coffee how's it going :)
doug Sosa: Me, too. Actually I notice its already all gone!
Caledonia Heron: and I'm up for however you want to go :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
Caledonia Heron: hi Gaya :)
doug Sosa: hi gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel wonders if she's seen as kneeling properly
Caledonia Heron: yes Gaya, you appear to be kneeling to me :)
Fael Illyar: yes, kneeling to me too
Gaya Ethaniel: Cool.. may crash out btw
Caledonia Heron: maybe Bubbly is messing with your session :)
doug Sosa: bubbly?
Caledonia Heron: the name of the fish if I remember correctly
Gaya Ethaniel stars at Bubbly... and finds her eyes rolling around
doug Sosa: ah yes.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'yes'

...

Gaya Ethaniel: Cal why were you confused in your last GoC PaB session?
doug Sosa: bubbly is not swimming normally.
Gaya Ethaniel: no?
Caledonia Heron: mmm, I was trying to understand Fael's comments and only being moderately successful at times
Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
Caledonia Heron: hey there Adams :)
doug Sosa: hi adams.
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Fael Illyar: what did we talk about?
Caledonia Heron: separate selves impinging on each other
Caledonia Heron: [did I get it right?]
Faenik: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel is Offline
Fael Illyar: umm... impinging?
Gaya Ethaniel is Online
Caledonia Heron: mmmm, like messing with each other....
Adams Rubble likes to think of separate selves helping each other
Gaya Ethaniel: Back
Fael Illyar: Well, there was no quarrel there in my case.
Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder... if I think back my experience, I didn't 'identify' with any of 'selves'
Caledonia Heron: "Fael Illyar: somehow ended up with RL one deciding to sleep and Fael taking over. Fael Illyar: but Fael wasn't quite enough to handle things. Fael Illyar: She broke in an hour after the other parts were asleep."
Gaya Ethaniel: All 'selves' were equally recognised
Gaya Ethaniel fears another crash
Caledonia Heron: that is what I was referring to Fael - perhaps I misunderstood

...

Fael Illyar: Hello Adams D
Gaya Ethaniel nudges doug to sit near the rest of the group
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Caledonia Heron: hey AdamsD
Caledonia Heron: :)
Adams Dubrovna: Hello everyone :)
Caledonia Heron: there you go :) tough taming that seat, yes?
Adams Dubrovna: Not such a great start
Gaya Ethaniel: Very now Adams what you are wearing today
Caledonia Heron: you're fine :)
Adams Dubrovna: Sorry Doug
Earth Primbee is Offline
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Ms Adams
Caledonia Heron: Doug's a friendly sort, :)
doug Sosa: well, i can be slow.
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry my comment was for A Rubble
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Rubble: I am wearing a taditional Irish costume
Adams Rubble: traditional
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Gaya Ethaniel: Very now at any rate for the autumn :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Faenik: indeed?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Faenik.. you should read some magazines sometimes
Fael Illyar: :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, a nice outfit, AdamsR :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you find yourself identifying with Fael more than others?
Adams Rubble: Thanks fael
Fael Illyar: No, I'm the whole, not any part.
Gaya Ethaniel: So when Fael 'took over' what happened?
Gaya Ethaniel: why* how* - better words here perhaps
Fael Illyar: Well, things went downhill fast and there was quite some "cleaning up" to do.
Gaya Ethaniel senses slience...
doug Sosa: the roar of listening.
Gaya Ethaniel: of pondering perhaps
doug Sosa: that's rumble.
Caledonia Heron: here I go, not quite getting the references to the discussion... asking myself *what* things went downhill, what does *cleaning up* mean..... these are examples of my confusion Gaya..... maybe we could be really specific if we want to understand you Fael?
Fael Illyar: please excuse me for a moment, I'll be right back.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Gaya Ethaniel: ok.... Fael

...

Caledonia Heron: while Fael's afk, maybe someone else has a 9sec experience thread to offer?
Adams Rubble: How about you Cal?
Gaya Ethaniel: I have something...
Caledonia Heron: nicely done Adams, turn it around :)
Caledonia Heron: sure Gaya, go ahead
Fael Illyar is back
Adams Rubble is really curious about what Cal is doing
Gaya Ethaniel: My last GoC session, we were discussing Kindness, Compassion and Love
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Fael
Gaya Ethaniel: Let's get back to Fael's thread if that's ok
Adams Dubrovna: OK
Caledonia Heron: that's fine, let's finish Fael's thread and hear from some others also :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'thanks'
Faenik loves wells!

...

Fael Illyar: Well, things went downhill were a logical labyrinth that having most of myself asleep, I couldn't help but build.
Fael Illyar: and after realizing I was lost in it, panic, anxiety
Caledonia Heron: lost in a labyrinth?
Gaya Ethaniel: you may remember 'walls'?
Caledonia Heron: sure, I remember walls
Caledonia Heron: so, lost in a labyrinth of walls? is that it?
Fael Illyar: well, logical thought constructs are beliefs and doubts.
Gaya Ethaniel: Didn't you say Fael that you were putting down a wall that then spring up somewhere else and so on and so on?
Gaya Ethaniel: phone brb
Fael Illyar: ... that doesn't somehow make sense.
Gaya Ethaniel: back
Caledonia Heron: this is an interesting discussion in that it highlights how differently we are practicing this experiment ... imo .... my experiences are more outwardly oriented while others it would appear are very much inwardly oriented .... different perspectives for all of us I am observing :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Care to say more on 'outwardly' experiences?
Faenik loves wells!
Caledonia Heron: My experiences with YSBS and ESBS orient around things outside myself, drawing from the things around and beyond me, nature, the land, stars, wherever it is that we "go" :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Needs to be a little more specific Cal. Can't quite follow you here
Caledonia Heron: it's about perspective Gaya ... some of us are focusing inward and some of are focusing outward
Caledonia Heron: different is all ... all valid, all appropriate I would think for whoever is doing what
Gaya Ethaniel: So you look at things outside you while doing 9 sec? Is this what you mean?
Adams Dubrovna: Do you mean you are focusing on Being around you and your part in it?
Gaya Ethaniel: So you focus*
Gaya Ethaniel is just trying to understand as she doesn't do inwards or outwards
Caledonia Heron: sure, inwards/outwards ... it's a vocabulary, a way to discuss perspective and it might not be relevant to you
Caledonia Heron: not focus per se .... trying to speak about an orientation if you will

...

Gaya Ethaniel: I'm curious as to know how you do it. That's all Cal. It sounds real interesting...
Caledonia Heron: there's no how, it just is ... that's how it shows up for me :)
Gaya Ethaniel: So take us step by step one of your 9 sec moment so that we can see how you do?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Caledonia Heron: impossible
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Fael Illyar: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ok got it
Gaya Ethaniel: But somehow you think Fael's experience is a result of looking 'inwards'
Fael Illyar: I can look both inwards and outwards
Caledonia Heron: I don't know Gaya .... I truly know only my experience .... that's how my experience appears to me ... outbound, outward, expanding
Adams Rubble: Yes, Fael I think I do that too
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... I was wondering why you said '[7:27] Caledonia Heron: this is an interesting discussion in that it highlights how differently we are practicing this experiment ... imo .... my experiences are more outwardly oriented while others it would appear are very much inwardly oriented .... different perspectives for all of us I am observing :)'
Fael Illyar: approach from different directions
Gaya Ethaniel: I understood that you meant what Fael was relating was 'inwardly orientated'. Did I misunderstand it?
Gaya Ethaniel is confused
Faenik: なるほど^^
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Faenik indeed
Caledonia Heron: I can tell you're trying to pin me down here Gaya ... so I'll conclude by saying talking about selves working in and around each other within laybryinths of walls sounds like inbound to me ... willing to be totally wrong, only my impression :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Gaya Ethaniel didn't mean to pin down Cal.
Gaya Ethaniel: Just trying to understand <smile>
Caledonia Heron: :) ... that's fine, I'm a big girl wearing big girl pants :)
Gaya Ethaniel laughs 'I'm wearing a skirt' :P
Adams Dubrovna: I'm wearing standard issue

Fael Illyar: Well, I was only describing the inner view there :)
Gaya Ethaniel: So I wonder whether Fael can say more about the laybryinths
Caledonia Heron: :) AdamsD
Gaya Ethaniel: Funny Adams D

...

Gaya Ethaniel: Do you think you are ready to relate this now Fael?
Fael Illyar: yes
Fael Illyar: oh wait ... labyrinth? that'd would require rebuilding it.
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you think you could do that or would you like to do that now Fael?
Gaya Ethaniel: Please be gentle on yourself Fael
Gaya Ethaniel: There are many many sessions we can have
Fael Illyar: Rebuilding that would not be wise
Adams Rubble: I would think so :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder if you can recreate it at all Fael
Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds impossible to me anyhow
Caledonia Heron: sure Gaya :) how about we frame it in the context of what this tells us about the nature of reality, how we can describe that "essence"
Fael Illyar: no, not possible. Not exactly anyway
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Cal it's just that Fael has been in a delicate state recently so I just have to be careful that's all
Gaya Ethaniel: It is related to the exploration certainly
Faenik: indeed?
Gaya Ethaniel: And I believe Fael wants to share it with everyone here
Gaya Ethaniel: But it just takes some time...
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps not Faenik... can't say
Caledonia Heron: sure I understand that Gaya and it's very gracious of you to be helpful...
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Cal <smile>
Gaya Ethaniel: Fael we will wait for you so take your time
Fael Illyar: I'll tell you what I can when I can.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Caledonia Heron: sounds reasonable....

...

Adams Rubble: I think it is important that we try to relate all our results of inward looking to reality
Caledonia Heron: sure, what does that tell us about reality?
Adams Rubble: Yes, exactly, Cal
Adams Rubble: Maybe our inward looking is seeking out and identifying identities and attachments
Adams Rubble: inward
Adams Rubble: It can't be a form of self-massage
Adams Rubble: become
Caledonia Heron: yep all of that ..... and inward, schnmward, outward, schmoutward..... it's all made up baloney as we try to make sense, rationalize stuff
Faenik: なるほど^^
Adams Rubble: Don't necessarily agree on the "baloney" but I see your point :)
Caledonia Heron: take out baloney, insert construct, mind, consensual realtiy .... whatever works for you, it's a made up deal
Adams Rubble: :)
Caledonia Heron: not to be too indelicate but I'm curious ... are the two Adams here one and the same ?
Adams Rubble: There is an email, Cal
Adams Rubble: Just some more thought...
Caledonia Heron: ok, sure
Faenik: なるほど^^

...

Adams Rubble: I think inward looking is a very serious exercise
Adams Rubble: and it needs to be given some time to run its course
Adams Rubble: The danger is it becomes an end in itself
Caledonia Heron: understood, I respect the fact we're all coming from different places on this activity
Adams Rubble: and it has been a marvelous ride for me, at least
Caledonia Heron: that's good it has been valuable to you :)
Adams Dubrovna: Maybe there will not be so much need for inward looking now, Ms. Adams
Faenik: could be
Adams Rubble: Always coming to new perspectives on reality
Adams Rubble: as the "I" becomes les important
Adams Rubble: less
Faenik: なるほど^^
Adams Rubble: Maybe I'll be seeing it more your way one day, Cal :)
Caledonia Heron: impossible
Adams Rubble: :)
Caledonia Heron: you can see it "your" way
Adams Rubble: Like Burger King
Caledonia Heron: lol
Adams Dubrovna: Gotta go first, bye :)
Caledonia Heron: I'm a little stranged out by one person's av talking to their other av
Adams Rubble: Won't be for long Cal
Caledonia Heron: sure, as you prefer :)
Fael Illyar: :)

...

Fael Illyar: oh right, I've been thinking about the separate selves SL seems to bring about in some people.
Adams Rubble: Yes, that was the theme today :)
Caledonia Heron: yes, as someone mentioned sl is a great place to explore identity and roles
Caledonia Heron: yes, I've heard this theme multiple times
Fael Illyar: SL brings out the repressed parts of you. That haven't got that much light of day.
Faenik: なるほど^^
Caledonia Heron: yes, I can understand that
Caledonia Heron: let's you open a few suitcases :)
Adams Rubble: But also brings out growth, new perspectives
Caledonia Heron: yes, a welcome possibility or outcome :)
Fael Illyar: well, in my case the joining was rather ... umm ... colorful :)
Adams Rubble: yes :)
Adams Rubble: I like to think colorful makes for interesting
Caledonia Heron: the joining? the joining of selves ... the different parts ??? [not tracking all of a sudden]
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Cal. I talked about fearing having 'schezophrenia' the other day
Adams Rubble: I see it a different way
Caledonia Heron: if you are serious Gaya, I suggest you consult a professional
Gaya Ethaniel laughs
Fael Illyar: Yes, the repressed parts will begin merging with the rest eventually.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm fine Cal. I joined them all
Fael Illyar: just, in most cases it'll be slow and stable process.
Gaya Ethaniel: I've done that weeks ago
Gaya Ethaniel: My trigger was victim and judge and all started from there
Faenik: why not?
Caledonia Heron: discussing schizophrenia and multiple selves is beyond the scope of my expertise

...

Fael Illyar: oh right, victim and judge ... that's where it started for me too
Gaya Ethaniel: oh
Fael Illyar: when I found mine
Gaya Ethaniel: ah the judge
Gaya Ethaniel: then victim
Gaya Ethaniel remembers
Caledonia Heron: there is a big difference between "roles" and what might be perceived as identities imo
Gaya Ethaniel: They are not 'identities' imo
Gaya Ethaniel: They are part of me
Adams Rubble: Roles are acting
Gaya Ethaniel: I still have them
Fael Illyar: Yes, like I still have Fael
Caledonia Heron: it's all acting :)
Adams Rubble: Ah Cal, sigh
Adams Rubble: :)
Caledonia Heron: I'm sorry ...? sigh?

...

Fael Illyar: there's acting and there's being genuine.
Adams Rubble: Welll....
Gaya Ethaniel wants to relate her experience but is having difficulties finding right 'words'
Adams Rubble: Yes Fael
Caledonia Heron: genuine is an action also
Gaya Ethaniel: you know Cal
Gaya Ethaniel: How sometimes people say in a moment of madness, there is a spark of genuis?
Adams Rubble: Yes, but being so dimissive can blur the disinctions :)
Fael Illyar: Our actings don't mean the same thing.
Caledonia Heron: are you suggesting I'm being dismissive Adams?
Gaya Ethaniel: No I didn't take it as 'dismissive'... you are talking from your point of view that's all
Fael Illyar: would you define yours Cal?
Fael Illyar: what does acting mean for you?
Caledonia Heron: define my what Fael?
Gaya Ethaniel: 'acting'
Adams Rubble: Not that you are dimissive but the statement can be interpreted as so espcially if one is struggling a bit
Caledonia Heron: ok, thanks Adams, I understand now
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Caledonia Heron: I don't know how or if you might take this so I'll do my best to express that if you have a sense of what might be outside an ordinary everyday frame of mind, whatever that is, it might appear that anything within the ordinary everyday frame of mind might look like acting, actors playing roles; some are authentic in their interaction with others, some are acting as judges or victims, all pieces of something stitched together yet inside a "construct" for lack of a better word .... IMO
Caledonia Heron: so it may sound cavalier or dismissive to say everything is acting and maybe it's not ... let's go back to the analogy of the movie ... are we the players on the screen, or can we put ourselves in the position of the light that brings the players to life ... it is that distinction I am referring to
Caledonia Heron: does that make sense to anyone, this is very hard to describe particularly if you (I) have little experience articulating it in a meaningful way to other persons
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Gaya Ethaniel: Slightly different...
Adams Rubble: Oh yes, Cal :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, makes sense

...

Adams Rubble: If you will, let me explain the other view
Caledonia Heron: sure, that would be great
Fael Illyar: but based on that definition, my genuine isn't acting.
Caledonia Heron: I would posit that it is all acting Fael
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel: I can't quite come up with such an elaborate example here... but I'd say 'There is Being that 'sees' different 'selves' that are all part of Being' something like that. The separateness of 'selves' was the cause of the chaos.
Gaya Ethaniel thought if the separateness is the 'original sin'
Adams Rubble: I may be acting a role to understand something about myself. I may even start a dialogue with myself. I know that is acting to get at something serious, maybe something I am struggling with. Yes that struggle is acting in your definition and I can agree with you that it is acting. But in talking about it I need to talk about any role playing as acting. Lumping it all together makes it more difficult for me to understand
Fael Illyar: Gaya, yes, that's it.
Adams Rubble: That is not to say I disagree with you at all :)
Gaya Ethaniel: What's it?
Fael Illyar: original sin
Caledonia Heron: I get that Adams, thanks for telling me
Caledonia Heron: us :)

...

Gaya Ethaniel: ah so you get it Fael
Fael Illyar: yes, I remember thinking about that some time back ... oh wow, last week feels like a year :P
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fael Illyar: maybe more
Gaya Ethaniel laughs
Adams Rubble: :)
Caledonia Heron: this is what's so interesting about the 9sec experiment ... I, at this point, do not have that experience Fael or Gaya and ... we can still say that all experiences are valid for each of us
Fael Illyar: Hi Prosper :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Prosper Telling: Hi
Adams Rubble: Hi Prosper
Faenik: why not?
Caledonia Heron: hey there :)
Adams Rubble: I must go too now. thanks for a great discussion. bye :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Adams :)
Caledonia Heron: me too .. thanks for coming everyone ... sorry to dash and run Prosper :) see you all next time :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Rubble: Yes, sorry Propser :)
Prosper Telling: No prob... I didn't expect anyone to be here any way