2008.08.22 19:00 - You Smelling Being Smelling, and then Indulging in Assumptions

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    The guardian for the evening was Adelene, and all comments are hers.


    This was my first meeting as active Guardian, and it was a long one! I was already there before the time, and Threedee showed up early as well. 

    Adelene Dawner: Hiya Three :)
    Adelene Dawner: How was dinner?
    Threedee Shepherd: hi again :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Very nice steak for us carnivores :D
    Adelene Dawner grins.

    Nate and doug showed up right after the first bell.

    Adelene Dawner: Hullo, Nate.
    Nate Bouras: hi
    Threedee Shepherd: hello Nate
    Nate Bouras: hello
    Adelene Dawner: Pull up a cushion, if you want - the meeting will be starting in just a few minutes.
    doug Sosa: hi both.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Doug
    doug Sosa: my favorite too.
    doug Sosa: Nate, do stay.
    Adelene Dawner: No problem, Nate. Perhaps another time.
    doug Sosa: and tacha, do stay.
    Nate Bouras: you all have a good time, maybe another night for sure, I've sat in once before and will ! :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    doug Sosa: ok.
    Adelene Dawner: hmm
    Adelene Dawner: small group tonight
    doug Sosa: never know,
    Threedee Shepherd: and/or late arrivers
    doug Sosa: I just had a glass of wine and some cheese with friends, leaves me very mellow.
    Threedee Shepherd: ahhh
    Threedee Shepherd: doug, last night you said that during the 9-sec you sometimes "see beyond" to another space. Could you say more

    Adams turned up.

    doug Sosa: well, its not that I see beyond, but that I am aware that the space I see is contained in something larger. This is not an idea but an experience.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Adams
    doug Sosa: :)
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Everyone :)
    doug Sosa: but I was thinking today, we talk about seeing..being...seeing...etc. and this is a stress on seeing. what about smelling?
    Threedee Shepherd: does "contained in" imply a containER with its own borders?
    doug Sosa: great question. I "think" it is infinite, but not sure if I experience it. it sees like the dark hiding the light, something like that.
    Adams Rubble: I think of all the senses as part of "SEEing"
    doug Sosa: really?
    doug Sosa: Smelling reshuffles the "space" in interesting ways, just thinking about it.
    Adams Rubble: yes we see with our ears, our nose, our hands, our mouth
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, so do I Adams, because that is the colloquial meaning we most encounter in English
    doug Sosa: "i see" said the blind man, smelling the rose
    Threedee Shepherd: Even people blind from birth typically say "I see" to mean I understand of I get it.
    Adams Rubble: yes exactly
    doug Sosa: Yes but If I see let being smell me, it s really different for me than saying "let being see me."

    stevenaia arrived.

    Adams Rubble: Hi Steve
    doug Sosa: Hi Steve talking about seeing and or smelling.
    Threedee Shepherd: about the same Doug, with enough context, I think
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi
    doug Sosa: that is amazing, really different for me.
    Threedee Shepherd: My non-visual senses, other than perhaps touch, are not particularly sensitive, which affects my metaphors.
    doug Sosa: quite a statement for a lion! :)
    Threedee Shepherd: And even my visual senses are typical
    Adelene Dawner notices Threedee poking her.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahhh, well I guess I'm a "different" lion :)
    doug Sosa: there is a lot of writing by historians on the shift towards seeing as the dominant frame for knowledge in the west since the middle ages.
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: I would be interested in a reference to that, Doug
    Adams Rubble doesn't know about that writing
    doug Sosa: me too, not on the tip of my thinking but Walter Ong would be one source.

     Avastu became present.

    doug Sosa: The mathematizing of thought generally is a trend.
    Adams Rubble: Hello Avastu :)
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Threedee Shepherd: <aside> about 40% of the human brain is primarily involved in visual processing, no other sense comes in even a close second.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hello Avastu
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    doug Sosa: we are talking about seeing vs smelling: the dominance of "seeing"
    stevenaia Michinaga: finally cushions to sit on
    Threedee Shepherd: dogs, or bats, would "see" it differently :D
    doug Sosa: or me, when I shift consciousness to "smelling"
    Adams Rubble can't think about seeing or smelling without hearing, tasting and touching
    Threedee Shepherd: So perhaps taking 9-sec with food in your mouth would be interesting?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    doug Sosa: hey, a full person. Does second life with its bits and pixels, move us toward seeing?
    doug Sosa: not bytes :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I agree that SL biases towards seeing, although the 3-dimensional sense of space, even if sitting still, evokes movement (motoric) possibilities.
    Threedee Shepherd: Possibilities
    Threedee Shepherd: <total tangent> will the upcoming automatic recording fix my types;D
    Threedee Shepherd: or should I say typos
    Adelene Dawner: Mmm... only if you have a really good mirror neuron system going, Three. The 'movement' is only represented visually.
    Adams Rubble: I am missing the connection. Our SEEing is in real life
    Adams Rubble: That is where reality is

    At this point, a very random stranger ran through the pavilion, cutting right through the middle of the group! We all stopped for a moment to ponder that.

    Adams Rubble: whoa
    Adelene Dawner: Adams, I don't know about *your* reality, but in mine, that girl just *totally* walked right through the meeting. ^.^
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: All (?) knowledge includes a motor component. Just seeing space (not considering mirror systems) probably evokes the motor aspects, too
    Adams Rubble: and is being ejected from everywhere
    doug Sosa: So this started by my thinking today that when we do the 9 sec, it is usually fairly visual, and smell is left out, and isn't that a sign that we are really holding on to assumptions, that reality is basically visual?
    Adelene Dawner: We may be using different definitions of 'motor', Mark.

    The same stranger then went and bounced off the neighbor's security fence for a while, making chat difficult - well, if you don't have the fence muted, anyway. Instructions for muting the fence are below.

    Threedee Shepherd: Gee, looks like someone nearby put up an ejection fence
    Adams Rubble: she IS persistent
    doug Sosa: a little nuclear war over the horizon.
    Adelene Dawner has the ejector system muted - blissful silence. ^.^
    doug Sosa: She passed through here twice.
    doug Sosa: twice.
    Adams Rubble: I wonder if we see the nine seconds differently Doug
    Adams Rubble: I would think of a walk in the woods as part of the exercise
    Adams Rubble: especially when doing the seeing exercise
    Adams Rubble: sorry my AV keeps typing when I am not
    Threedee Shepherd: how does one mute the ejector system?
    Adelene Dawner: At the bottom of your screen, hit the up-arrow next to 'communicate', and then click 'mute list'
    doug Sosa: "see" the 9sec differently?
    Adams Rubble: A walk in the woods wold include all of the senses
    Adelene Dawner: select 'mute object by name' and copy the name of the object that's shouting the message into the resulting popup box.
    doug Sosa: To me it is to let go of all assumptions and experience.. but seeing keeps our self centered perspective, but then so does smell, yet they are part -
    Adelene Dawner ^.^s at Doug.
    doug Sosa: I am out of my depth here, which is why it is interesting.
    Adams Rubble: Why are our senses part of a self-centered perspective
    Adams Rubble: they are what is real
    Threedee Shepherd: experience is what it is, and thus interesting to hear about, doug
    Adelene Dawner: What's that saying about people stumbling over the truth every so often, but dusting themselves off and walking away as if nothing happened?
    Adams Rubble: reversed
    doug Sosa: finding myself covered with dust I know something happened.
    Adams Rubble: You see the dust, you feel the dust, you may smell and taste the dust
    Adelene Dawner notes that she started typing that last bit before Adams spoke.
    Threedee Shepherd: Adams " Why are our senses part of a self-centered perspective" is a great question, as in why is my pain in my toe when it is registered in my brain?
    doug Sosa: Yes, that's the question I wanted but much clearer. my fairy godmother allows me half an hour... gotta go.
    doug Sosa: bye!
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Adelene Dawner: cay, Doug
    Adelene Dawner: cya
    Adams Rubble: bye
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Threedee Shepherd: Avastu, pain in my toe seems to imply that consciousness has a spatial dimensionality
    Avastu Maruti: hmmmm

    Cookieman and Pema joined us in quick succession.

    Threedee Shepherd: Hi cookieman, good to see you again
    cookieman Constantine: Hi Threedee
    Adelene Dawner: Hullo Cookieman
    cookieman Constantine: how have you been
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Pema
    cookieman Constantine: Hello Adelene
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Adams Rubble: Hello Cookieman
    cookieman Constantine: Hello adams
    cookieman Constantine: ah thats better. now I am facing everyone
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Pema Pera: :>)
    cookieman Constantine: is it Friday yet?
    cookieman Constantine: whats the conversation today
    Pema Pera: it is Saturday for me
    Threedee Shepherd: depends on where you are, I
    cookieman Constantine: well I am on vacation in Florida
    Pema Pera: I hope I didn't interrupt the conversation
    cookieman Constantine: No I did lol ; )
    Threedee Shepherd: We have been exploring the metaphoric/colloquial sense of the word SEEING, in the context of have many senses that "see" the world and that arise to observation during the 9-sec
    Pema Pera: great topic!
    Pema Pera: any conclusions, tentatively?

    Nobody wanted to answer this, so we all sat and stared at each other for a minute.

    cookieman Constantine: I wonder if my glasses with help seeing inside of myself. but I do get where the convo could be going
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, I responded to something Adams said, as follows: Adams " Why are our senses part of a self-centered perspective" is a great question, as in why is my pain in my toe when it is registered in my brain?
    Adams Rubble: I was responding to Doug's saying the senses are part of a self-centered perspective
    Adams Rubble: I think of all the senses as part of SEEing
    cookieman Constantine: its odd how a 3 lb piece of meant can control your entire perception of the world and how the others see you
    Threedee Shepherd: Agreed, Adams.
    cookieman Constantine: meat I mean
    Threedee Shepherd: yet, I sort of wondered whether if "the pain" is in my big toe, is the consciousness of it in my big toe?
    Pema Pera: isn't all that in your consciousness
    Pema Pera: including the question where what is?
    Threedee Shepherd: My consciousness "of" could be infinite if all Being is infinite, yet my consciousness seems to co-exist with the space filled by my physical body.
    cookieman Constantine: we all question the meaning of consciousness and how it change everyday life.
    cookieman Constantine: the entire if-then aspect of being
    Adams Rubble: Wouldn't that be the same as touching s a sense. We may touch with our toe and experience Being with it
    Pema Pera: it is not so much "could be" that I suggested to start with, but rather what is actually given, our consciousness here and now
    Pema Pera: my toe is given in my consciousness it seems, as well as the question where all that belongs in what way
    Pema Pera: very direct and empirical
    Pema Pera: everything else seems more of a theoretical construct, no?
    cookieman Constantine: how about an ice pack for that toes
    cookieman Constantine: we all experience the same things and feelings but it is boggling how it "impresses" on each of us differently
    cookieman Constantine: a stubbed toe to one may feel like a total amputation for another
    Pema Pera: (I was just trying to start at a far simpler place, before discussing all the connections . . . .)
    Pema Pera: the real world seems to be sandwiched between consciousness: within my consciousness I perceive a world that has my body in it and my brain to which I may ascribe consciousness -- like Russian dolls, the most outer and inner is consciousness
    Pema Pera: we typically talk only about the inner one -- associated with a brain, but that is pure theory
    Pema Pera: experimentally, experientially we only have access to the outer one, the canvas of it all
    Pema Pera: I don't mean this is a complex way, and it is not related to anything as fancy as Being. I drew a picture on a napkin, ten years ago, trying to point this out: file:///users/piet/ref/my_public_htm...nce/nyt97.html
    Pema Pera: oops
    Pema Pera: wrong URL
    Pema Pera: http://www.ids.ias.edu/~piet/act/nat/experience/nyt97.html
    Pema Pera: I would draw it here if I had a blackboard :)
    Adams Rubble: Thank you. I see. Good night all :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: are there blackboards here?
    Pema Pera: I wish!

    Genesis showed up.

    Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Adelene Dawner: Actually, one of our friends has been working on building one...
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey all!
    Pema Pera: if we can get one, that would be fabulous!
    stevenaia Michinaga: in such a building and graphics world is seems strange there is no place to draw here
    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, I cannot resist replying to your napkin with this:
    Threedee Shepherd: http://www.graphicsoptimization.com/blog/wp-includes/images/go_examples/2007_11/NewYorker1976-03-29coverUO.png
    stevenaia Michinaga: just a way of importing drawings from the outside
    Pema Pera: yes, I like that picture!
    Pema Pera: it shows the content of visual consciousness
    Pema Pera: or imagination
    Pema Pera: nicely self centered
    Pema Pera: but not the place of consciousness
    Pema Pera: wb cookieman
    cookieman Constantine: sorry. I had to restart
    cookieman Constantine: nothing I was typing was appearing
    Pema Pera: yeah, that happens
    cookieman Constantine: Hello Genesis
    Pema Pera: 3D, I have to leave in a few minutes
    cookieman Constantine: and it was some pretty good stuff I typed
    Pema Pera: but I'd love to take up this topic soon
    Pema Pera: I'm very curious to know to what extent you agree
    Pema Pera: and whether we can formulate a shared understanding
    Pema Pera: it may be in your chat log file, cookieman
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, let's do so :)
    Pema Pera: I have another SL meeting so have to leave
    Pema Pera: great seeing you all!
    Threedee Shepherd: bye for now
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    cookieman Constantine: that is is so funny how some proteins and water can let such a being as us become so aware of ourselves as a being
    cookieman Constantine: bye Pema
    cookieman Constantine: good to meet you.
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Pema
    cookieman Constantine: I do have one off the wall question...... how do I change my display name : )
    Threedee Shepherd: In a dream (the thing that happened when I am asleep--for clarification:) I often have a sense of watching me and the scene from a SL like camera over my shoulder. I do not have that experience when awake.
    cookieman Constantine: When your are asleep, your brain is really "jacked in". You are in phase with both the waking and sub-conscious worlds
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be going.... see you soon
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    cookieman Constantine: Bye. it was great meeting you
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Steve
    cookieman Constantine: well all I must say good night. long drive back to New York
    Threedee Shepherd: from where?
    Adelene Dawner: Good night, Cookieman.
    cookieman Constantine: from Florida to Bronx, NY
    Threedee Shepherd: I was born in and lived in The Bronx until I was 9. g'nite and be safe
    cookieman Constantine: its probably the same still Threedee
    cookieman Constantine: well all night night and see you soon.
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend

    With Cookieman gone, it was just myself, Threedee, and Avastu. It was 20:10 at this point.

    Threedee Shepherd: Avastu, will you "venture" a statement about the spatiality of consciousness, going back to earlier in the conversation?
    Avastu Maruti: yes, my friend
    Avastu Maruti: the world we see is an appearance
    Avastu Maruti: space and time appear as conceptual formations
    Avastu Maruti: the "outside" and the "inside" are illusions - we can come to this simply by looking at the senses
    Avastu Maruti: we get stuck in our concepts about the world
    Threedee Shepherd: no argument, so far. I am assuming from your past discussions that you agree that consciousness "is", am I correct or where those rhetorical statements?
    Avastu Maruti: consciousness is only a pointer
    Avastu Maruti: this world we see - we have labeled it "world"
    Avastu Maruti: then we have labeled this activity of knowing "consciousness"
    Threedee Shepherd: does this "activity of knowing" have a spatial location or core?
    Avastu Maruti: so if we take a scientific lens, we can say that the senses are not open holes in the head
    Avastu Maruti: this activity of knowing has no center
    Avastu Maruti: the self-center or reference point arises in this knowing
    Avastu Maruti: all relativity appears this way
    Threedee Shepherd: is my consciousness co-extensive with yours (which I notice may not be a valid or useful question)?
    Avastu Maruti: "my" and "yours" is still relativity, still part of the appearance IN seeing/knowing
    Avastu Maruti: seeing/knowing is not personal, not individual
    Avastu Maruti: the relative and personal appear against this background of knowing
    Avastu Maruti: this "appearance" registers immediately in "awareness"
    Threedee Shepherd: I assume--as axiomatic--that some of the appearances I experience are to some extent a function of physical things that exist in the universe, such as the thing I call a rock, on which I painfully hit my toe.
    Avastu Maruti: the mind will never ever find the answer, my friend
    Avastu Maruti: look to what the words are pointing
    Threedee Shepherd: all I am saying is that the "is" a "what" to which my words are pointing, not that I will understand
    Avastu Maruti: it is much much simpler than you imagine
    Avastu Maruti: mental analysis will not solve the equation - either trust that or spend another 40 years looking
    Avastu Maruti: simply rest as you are
    Avastu Maruti: you are presently aware
    Avastu Maruti: you know you ARE
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Avastu Maruti: with what or what is present that makes it impossible to deny that you ARE?
    Threedee Shepherd: Sorry, I did not understand the question?
    Avastu Maruti: what is here, now, that makes it impossible to deny that you ARE
    Avastu Maruti: that you exist
    Adelene Dawner: "I think, therefore I am"
    Threedee Shepherd: I do not deny that I AM, and can not imagine refutational evidence
    Adelene Dawner: or, better, "I experience, therefore I am"
    Avastu Maruti: I AM is the root thought - on which all the other abstractions take place
    Avastu Maruti: this is the source of false identification
    Avastu Maruti: yet that thought "I AM" is a translation of the mind of that ever-present presence of awareness or knowing
    Avastu Maruti: if we simply pause thought for a moment
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, it is such a translation
    Avastu Maruti: in that pause, you didn't disappear
    Threedee Shepherd: correct
    Avastu Maruti: you didn't cease to exist
    Avastu Maruti: in that pause, non-conceptual awareness was shining
    Avastu Maruti: that body appears in or on that awareness
    Avastu Maruti: and when thoughts came in, those too appeared or registered in or on that background awareness
    Threedee Shepherd: if this body ceases to exist (as in crumbles to dust) that particular awareness no longer is
    Avastu Maruti: awareness is not particular - "awareness" is all there is
    Threedee Shepherd: are you saying awareness=being
    Avastu Maruti: that sense of "I AM" ceases -when you do not know that you ARE, that's when they dispose of the corpse
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: yet awareness/being is not particular or personal, it contains all
    Avastu Maruti: all registers as appearance ON THAT - so much so that there is no distinction between the seeing and the seen
    Avastu Maruti: yet we stumble over concepts trying to figure it out
    Threedee Shepherd: I say that "the knower is part of the known"
    Avastu Maruti: in Vedanta it is called Sat Chit Ananda - Being/Awareness/Bliss
    Avastu Maruti: yes, the "knower", the individual subject, is part of the appearance, part of the illusion
    Threedee Shepherd: I am having trouble with the word/concept awareness. As follows:
    Threedee Shepherd: The awareness that your eyes are participating in at this moment is different than mine. I know that is a relative statement, yet I live in the relative. So, perhaps there is a more useful word?

    This was a rather funny time for Avastu to dissapear. ^.^

    Threedee Shepherd: Oops!!
    Adelene Dawner laughs!
    Threedee Shepherd: Has Avastu ceased being, or just my awareness of Avastu?
    Threedee Shepherd: ;)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Threedee Shepherd: By the time he disappeared, I am not even sure I remember the question I am asking :)
    Threedee Shepherd: It is as if there is only a two sentence conversation: "What is?" "Being is", all else is commentary.
    Adelene Dawner: ...yes... *any* conversation is that, if you boil it down enough.
    Threedee Shepherd: So why do I keep coming back to hear it over and over?

    Avastu returned.

    Adelene Dawner: I dunno, Three - bored, maybe?
    Avastu Maruti: sorry my friends - computer crashed
    Adelene Dawner: [20:40] Threedee Shepherd: It is as if there is only a two sentence conversation: "What is?" "Being is", all else is commentary. [20:41] Adelene Dawner: ...yes... *any* conversation is that, if you boil it down enough. [20:42] Threedee Shepherd: So why do I keep coming back to hear it over and over?
    Threedee Shepherd: Does that mean Avastu ceased BEING?
    Avastu Maruti: Avastu never existed
    Threedee Shepherd: We totally agree on that!
    Adelene Dawner: Except maybe possibly in the sense that the computer on which the SL client is running is complicated enough to be aware, and programs are something like consciousness to it... perhaps.
    Avastu Maruti: as a brain scientist, you are aware of how the senses send what is perceived to the brain
    Adelene Dawner re-reads that, goes 'buh?', and realizes she should not type while tired. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: In great detail, for what that is worth in the PaB context :D
    Avastu Maruti: it's worth a great deal
    Avastu Maruti: so you know that thoughts are simply firings of neurons
    Threedee Shepherd: Ade, what you wrote will be within 100 years, it does not take protoplasm to generate awareness
    Adelene Dawner: Yes. In the here-now it's unlikely, though, and untrue in the sense that Avastu was referring to in any case.
    Threedee Shepherd: Avastu, of course, that is the source of the "Hard Question" of how do neuronal firings "become" qualia
    Avastu Maruti: and the senses are not open "holes" or windows to the "outside" world
    Avastu Maruti: the senses receive the input and pass it along to the brain
    Threedee Shepherd: not at all, they are "tuned" in response to what is tunable to in the outside world, and only to some of that
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: so what's really there is not what we're actually seeing
    Threedee Shepherd: I have said that many times
    Avastu Maruti: so the spiritual search for "being" or "enlightenment" or whatever you want to label it, is all based on what we think we see and hear and know
    Avastu Maruti: because we take what we "see" as reality
    Threedee Shepherd: true, if there is a search, I think it more likely there is just a process
    Avastu Maruti: so in the Vedanta, what is really "out there" is called the One Substance
    Avastu Maruti: that is translated into the relative world we see and believe as separate "things"
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, in Tao, "the 10,000 things"
    Adelene Dawner: physics - energy - e=mc^2
    Avastu Maruti: so even the brain and the body are part of that translated "substance"
    Avastu Maruti: because we can see the body and brain "out there"
    Avastu Maruti: and the knowledge about all this is also part of the translation
    Adelene Dawner: (I've heard e=mc^2 translated as 'matter is just energy moving *really* slowly)

    Threedee told me later that he didn't understand why I was suddenly talking about physics... when we discuss it, I'll put a log up in the Contributions section.

    Threedee Shepherd: let me try this: No, I do not see the brain-body as out there. It is the locus of a particular subset of the oneness, given that the Oneness is not just a homogeneousness
    Avastu Maruti: can you see your body?
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I see my hand, although I cannot directly see my back
    Avastu Maruti: so whatever "part" of the body, you can see it - it's part of what's entering the senses
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, and I can also close my eyes and feel it
    Avastu Maruti: of course - the sense of touch works in much the same way, yes?
    Avastu Maruti: and all these are put together in the brain
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Threedee Shepherd: although we could make a useless diversion into phantom limb syndrome ;)
    Avastu Maruti: so this "image" we have, this translated "picture" of what is actually there, isn't this what we call consciousness?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Avastu Maruti: so this consciousness is the basis for what we call "I AM"
    Threedee Shepherd: is it the basis of, or is consciousness=I AM ?
    Avastu Maruti: the fact of knowing these things - knowing this "picture"
    Avastu Maruti: that is what we really refer to when we say "I AM"
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed
    Avastu Maruti: yet that picture, that "I AM" is not always present
    Avastu Maruti: that "I AM" stops every night when we sleep
    Threedee Shepherd: I would say that it's nature changes, although I am aware that sleep has been termed "the little death"
    Avastu Maruti: yes!
    Avastu Maruti: so we get another "picture" in sleep, called "dream"
    Avastu Maruti: the nature of this "picture" is believed to be different
    Threedee Shepherd: Again, I suspect a diversion into deep anesthesia is pointless :D
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Threedee Shepherd: not believed to be, has a different appearance than
    Avastu Maruti: does it?
    Avastu Maruti: does the fact of "thinking" indicate the waking state?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, in the sense I am using "appearance" as the totality of a now experience
    Avastu Maruti: let's go slowly
    Avastu Maruti: that "picture" has the same nature as this "waking picture"
    Avastu Maruti: the same "essence"
    Avastu Maruti: it's still consciousness
    Threedee Shepherd: in an illusory manner only
    Avastu Maruti: it's all illusion, you've already admitted that
    Avastu Maruti: illusion being not what it appears
    Threedee Shepherd: water has states, so does consciousness in different contexts
    Avastu Maruti: that's very conceptual
    Avastu Maruti: that assumes the existence of water
    Avastu Maruti: water appears in the "picture" - it's already translated
    Threedee Shepherd: please do not grab a burner on a hot stove ;)

    And thus began a series of rather violent agreements... oy. ^.^

    Avastu Maruti: of course - yet we can agree that what we're seeing isn't the actuality
    Threedee Shepherd: true, AND there IS an actuality, I say
    Avastu Maruti: of course
    Avastu Maruti: yet what IS It?
    Avastu Maruti: can you know?
    Threedee Shepherd: I don't know all I know is the appearance it takes in its interactions with my brain-body
    Threedee Shepherd: and that is all I can know
    Avastu Maruti: and that illusory appearance is what you make all your assumptions based on
    Avastu Maruti: including the existence of "Mark"
    Threedee Shepherd: I start with two assumptions: (1) there IS an actuality. (2) the physical locus that is an actual brain-body experiences appearances.
    Avastu Maruti: the physical locus is an assumption based on the illusion
    Avastu Maruti: the brain-body appears within this illusion
    Avastu Maruti: can that brain-body by something OTHER THAN that actuality
    Threedee Shepherd: A particular, momentary set of actualities would not exist if this brain-body did not itself have an actuality
    Avastu Maruti: that is a convolution
    Threedee Shepherd: I don't understand
    Avastu Maruti: there is no particular actuality - THIS is it
    Avastu Maruti: whatever THIS is
    Avastu Maruti: we can't ever KNOW what that actuality IS, we can call it BEING or whatever
    Avastu Maruti: the mind separates it up and calls it a "brain-body", a "ME"
    Avastu Maruti: yet that actuality INCLUDES the appearance of the "brain-body"
    Threedee Shepherd: I never experience the appearance of the entire IS, it has spatiality as does this locus "called" Mark
    Avastu Maruti: BEING is none other than ALL of it
    Avastu Maruti: the spatiality is part of the translated "picture" of actuality
    Avastu Maruti: space only exists as an illusion
    Threedee Shepherd: Disagree. the spatiality is the actual "container" of the actual things ("rocks")
    Avastu Maruti: yes!
    Avastu Maruti: yet that "container" is not relative space
    Avastu Maruti: that "container" is this very "moment"
    Avastu Maruti: this unchanging first and only moment
    Avastu Maruti: in which the appearance of time and space arise, as mind constructs
    Avastu Maruti: SPACE is your very nature
    Avastu Maruti: formless knowing "space"
    Threedee Shepherd: I do not agree. I understand "moment" and I understand time as the appearance of one moment after another, AND I also posit that the now has an actual spatial expanse
    Avastu Maruti: I'm not suggesting you believe anything I say - quite contrary - I'm suggesting to look to direct experience without the concepts

    It was getting to be a bit much.

    Adelene Dawner: May I interject?
    Avastu Maruti: of course, my friend
    Threedee Shepherd: Without now and space, actual has no useful meaning
    Avastu Maruti: no word has ANY real meaning
    Threedee Shepherd: then why did we work so hard to agree earlier that there is an unknowable actual
    Adelene Dawner: A bridge, perhaps: there are two meanings of the word 'assume', but perhaps they are the same after all - we start where Avastu is, and, by assuming the kinds of things that Mark is talking about, our world takes on those qualities.
    Avastu Maruti: we can conceptualize about awareness or consciousness, yet when we simply LOOK - look without using words or concepts, what are we resting in?
    Avastu Maruti: IN WHAT is this human experience arising?
    Threedee Shepherd: the multi-dimensional thing that is this universe
    Avastu Maruti: yes, Ade - we start from where we are - and that is here and now
    Avastu Maruti: what came first, YOU or the Universe?
    Threedee Shepherd: the universe came before this local condensation called me
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha
    Adelene Dawner: The universe, because it took some time for me to figure out how to assume 'me'. ^.-
    Avastu Maruti: YOU had to be there for the idea of "universe" to even appear
    Threedee Shepherd: ACTUALS exist whether I am here or not, as in that oft used quote about reality is what's left...
    Avastu Maruti: you have it completely backward, my friend - the universe appears IN YOU
    Avastu Maruti: if you're interested in spirituality, I suggest discarding all that I ever say and look for yourself
    Avastu Maruti: look to what all the ancients say
    Threedee Shepherd: a moment to moment manifestation of aspects of the universe exists in "me". And yes I look for myself, including for opportunities for Learning with others
    Adelene Dawner: Three, you *assume* that they exist - what proof do you have?

    Threedee and I spoke at the same time - I was responding to his 'actuals exist' comment.

    Avastu Maruti: as Pema said, science is a long way away from discovering the truth of what is already known
    Threedee Shepherd: None. But I function better if I make that assumption.
    Avastu Maruti: yes!
    Avastu Maruti: and that's perfectly fine
    Avastu Maruti: as long as the illusion is SEEN for what it is
    Avastu Maruti: we see a mirage, yet don't seek to quench our thirst
    Avastu Maruti: we know it's an illusion
    Avastu Maruti: even if it appears to be water
    Threedee Shepherd: which is why I keep attending :)
    Avastu Maruti: that knowing presence, that vast open "space" of BEING, is what you already ARE
    Avastu Maruti: and that includes all the relative, illusory appearances
    Threedee Shepherd: true. And one of the characteristics of what I already am is this annoying habit of questioning about my "AM", I can't help it, any more than I can help compassion or hunger. Tough luck, perhaps?
    Avastu Maruti: what arises, arises perfectly
    Threedee Shepherd: and quickly is corrupted
    Avastu Maruti: corruption arises perfectly
    Adelene Dawner: nope. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: I keep saying: "It doesn't matter, do what you want." If you want to question, question!!
    Avastu Maruti: part of the illusion, of seeing the "actuality" as something else, something different, something separate
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Ade.
    Avastu Maruti: is this "ME" that has these characteristics
    Avastu Maruti: there is no such thing as a separate "person", an absolute and separate entity in that body-mind
    Avastu Maruti: this is a belief, an assumption
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Avastu Maruti: so WHO can suffer? WHO can be involved?
    Avastu Maruti: when it's recognized, to the bone, that there IS no "I", then all suffering loses it's hold
    Avastu Maruti: there is no reference point for the suffering
    Threedee Shepherd: Everything is an illusion, including the fact I live in that illusion and have the illusion of making choices.


    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Avastu Maruti: even this "universe" which you say contains all is part of this illusion
    Adelene Dawner: Like Pema's movie metaphor... 'Mark' is one of the characters on the screen... as is 'Ann', as is 'Randall' - any suffering we observe in them means that much and no more... it's just as real as they are, which isn't at all unless we choose to assume that reality.
    Avastu Maruti: oh - Ann!
    Avastu Maruti: nice to meet you!
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Avastu Maruti: very nice, Ann.... ;)
    Avastu Maruti: this world is like a movie playing, like you said the characters are there
    Avastu Maruti: like a dream
    Avastu Maruti: yet the movie isn't always running
    Avastu Maruti: it closes it's doors for the night
    Avastu Maruti: yet what you ARE knows the coming and going of this "movie", this "dream"
    Avastu Maruti: you know when consciousness has stopped
    Avastu Maruti: you know when there was an absence of consciousness
    Avastu Maruti: you are PRIOR TO consciousness
    Avastu Maruti: it has been called the Absolute, as in - that which has no opposite yet contains the appearance of all opposites
    Threedee Shepherd: what if I am not prior to but instead one-to-one coexistent with?
    Avastu Maruti: one-to-one assumes duality
    Avastu Maruti: as does prior to
    Avastu Maruti: Being is looking at itself
    Threedee Shepherd: Sorry I meant, to use a metaphor is that apple is red, has flavor is solid, all at once.
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: you are the sweetness of the apple
    Threedee Shepherd: red or flavor or solidity, none is prior to
    Avastu Maruti: yes, all appears as one solid block, one totality
    Threedee Shepherd: as is consciousness and THIS ACTUAL brain-body
    Avastu Maruti: the brain-body can only be known as that with the mind
    Avastu Maruti: thoughts never actually separate anything
    Avastu Maruti: you separate the redness, the flavor and solidity
    Threedee Shepherd: ok the apple is red, flavored and solid. Mark is brain-body (actual atoms), consciousness and even all the accompanying illusions
    Avastu Maruti: atoms are a concept arising from the assumptions in the illusion
    Avastu Maruti: are there "atoms" in the actuality?
    Adelene Dawner: Mark.
    Adelene Dawner: Red exists, right? In the same sense that you're talking about now.
    Adelene Dawner: sssssh, Avastu.
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Threedee Shepherd: I am going back to a starting assumption that I will not give up, namely this IS an IS, an actuality, of which the brain-body known as Mark, and as Randall, and as Ann are temporary actual parts.
    Threedee Shepherd: red does not exist
    Adelene Dawner hisses at Mark for changing perspectives out from under her.
    Avastu Maruti: you just said that your starting point was an already an assumption
    Threedee Shepherd: yup, I have to start somewhere. I could start with "nothing is" but there appears to be no PLAYful fun in that
    Avastu Maruti: it is in this grasping and clenching of assumptions that the miracle is missed
    Adelene Dawner: You can start anywhere, but if you don't stay on one path long enough to get to the end, you're never going to get anywhere. >:|
    Threedee Shepherd: the existence of the assumptions appears to be a necessary part of the miracle.
    Threedee Shepherd: Wherever I get to is somewhere;)
    Avastu Maruti: yes - yet we SEE that they are only ever assumptions - we can directly KNOW reality, yet never as a concept
    Avastu Maruti: we cannot find it or figure it out, we can only EVER BE it

    Vertigo Ethaniel showed up. I've never met him before.

    Threedee Shepherd: I do not argue with that.
    Avastu Maruti: so BE as you are, that is all
    Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Vertigo... we're in the middle of a pretty deep discussion here.
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Threedee Shepherd: Yup, including a certain stubbornness
    Vertigo Ethaniel: I am happy to listen
    Avastu Maruti: reality is what is left (as you said) when all concepts and assumptions fall away
    Threedee Shepherd: and cannot be known
    Avastu Maruti: when the idea of separateness is seen as false
    Avastu Maruti: yes!
    Avastu Maruti: it cannot be known, yet you ARE!
    Avastu Maruti: there is a bird singing
    Avastu Maruti: "I am hearing a bird"
    Avastu Maruti: this is a convention of language only, dualistic
    Avastu Maruti: there is no "I" and no "bird"
    Threedee Shepherd: true
    Avastu Maruti: only the SEEing
    Avastu Maruti: only pure experiencing
    Adelene Dawner: just sound ^.^
    Avastu Maruti: not by an experience-er
    Adelene Dawner: qualia
    Avastu Maruti: not by a see-er
    Avastu Maruti: seeing is happening, NOW!
    Avastu Maruti: THIS is the miracle!
    Avastu Maruti: that bird singing is IT
    Avastu Maruti: yet not as a separate "thing"
    Avastu Maruti: the hearing is immediate and effortless registering
    Avastu Maruti: like a mirror, never grasping or holding
    Avastu Maruti: the miracle is found in the very ordinary
    Avastu Maruti: just "being"
    Threedee Shepherd: actually hearing is filtered, but I won't argue the point, High C is not more real than red
    Avastu Maruti: not the sense "hearing"
    Avastu Maruti: knowing
    Adelene Dawner: I said it what, yesterday? The basic assumption is that those qualia mean something. Everything else springs from that.
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes Ade, I agree with that basic assumption as an axiom. Let I said I have to start somewhere (even if I am already everywhere :) )
    Threedee Shepherd: Like I said
    Adelene Dawner: [21:46] Avastu Maruti: reality is what is left (as you said) when all concepts and assumptions fall away
    Adelene Dawner: But if it amuses you to take on some assumptions, hey, feel free. I indulge, too. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: I will ^.^
    Avastu Maruti: relativity is necessary for the appearance to appear
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed
    Adelene Dawner: "Reality doesn't require defending", nor even acknowledgment. It just IS.
    Avastu Maruti: that doesn't make it the actuality
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed
    Threedee Shepherd: what is your distinction about reality and actuality
    Avastu Maruti: mine?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Avastu Maruti: there is no distinction
    Threedee Shepherd: I missed something in this exchange: [21:51] Adelene Dawner: "Reality doesn't require defending", nor even acknowledgment. It just IS.
    Avastu Maruti: that doesn't make it the actuality
    Avastu Maruti: You: relativity is necessary for the appearance to appear
    Avastu Maruti: You: that doesn't make it the actuality
    Avastu Maruti: I wasn't responding to Ade
    Adelene Dawner: He wasn't responding to me, he was continuing his thought.
    Threedee Shepherd: ok
    Avastu Maruti: Simply rest in the knowing of what IS
    Avastu Maruti: that never requires a concept or assumption

    Another new person, Eryc Perl, turned up.

    Threedee Shepherd: how about reality IS, being is the expression of its is-ness?
    Avastu Maruti: you can slice and dice it any way you like - that's a nice way to look at it
    Avastu Maruti: but do we even need those words?
    Avastu Maruti: knowing is happening
    Threedee Shepherd: no, but without them the last 3 hours would have been awful boring ;D
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Adelene Dawner: No, just differently interesting. ^.^
    Avastu Maruti: boring happens because the mind wants to be elsewhere
    Avastu Maruti: yet it can never BE that
    Adelene Dawner: (that explains why I'm so rarely bored, then. ^.^)
    Threedee Shepherd: I was trying to be a bit facetious to make a point, sorry
    Avastu Maruti: simply rest in the knowing of what IS, here and now
    Threedee Shepherd: I will. Then I will sleep. then I will eat breakfast.
    Avastu Maruti: of course
    Eryc Perl: I'm just a lame white boy with no really deep thoughts..
    Avastu Maruti: yet there will NEVER be an "I" doing any of it
    Threedee Shepherd: sorry Eryc, we have been at this particular conversation over 2 hours now :)
    Avastu Maruti: Life is living itself
    Adelene Dawner: Sorry, Eryc, you've caught us in the middle, here. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, including breakfast and throwing out the trash.
    Avastu Maruti: yes!
    Avastu Maruti: so we celebrate breakfast,washing the dishes, throwing out the trash
    Avastu Maruti: Buddhists call this "mindfulness"
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Vertigo Ethaniel: Eric, we don't think deep... just let our minds wander
    Eryc Perl: ok. will just absorb your wandering
    Vertigo Ethaniel: let go of your preconceptions and just be
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Vertigo Ethaniel: welcome btw :)
    Threedee Shepherd: yes., Just be, AND don't forget to vote ;)
    Adelene Dawner: By the way, Vertigo and Eryc, this is a meeting of the Play as Being group, http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
    Vertigo Ethaniel: Adelene, I know :)
    Adelene Dawner: We meet every 6 hours for discussions - usually not quite as deep as this.
    Vertigo Ethaniel: don't you remember me?
    Adelene Dawner: Sorry, Vertigo, my memory for people is pretty bad. :P
    Vertigo Ethaniel: its alright, mines just as bad!
    Adelene Dawner: Have you been here before, Eryc?
    Eryc Perl: this is my second time ever logging onto 2nd life
    Eryc Perl: I can tell you if where I've been or even where I'm going
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, in the spirit of the discussion, it is no more deep than counting the blades of grass in that lawn^.^

    I was translating, ok? ^.^ *chuckles*

    Avastu Maruti: Mark, when you realize the truth of that, there will be no more questions
    Adelene Dawner: Okay... that link will tell you most of what you need to know about us. I do need to let you know that we log these conversations, though, and ask if you mind if we log your comments.
    Avastu Maruti: what you just said
    Eryc Perl: not at all.
    Threedee Shepherd: Will I then disappear :D
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha
    Adelene Dawner: Thanks, Eryc.
    Adelene Dawner: *I*'m still here, Mark, so I doubt it. ^.^
    Avastu Maruti: yes, you'll join Descartes
    Threedee Shepherd: no, I will not put Descartes before the Lion
    Vertigo Ethaniel: id just like to once again say how much I love the internet, when I can travel through Japanese temples with google image search
    Avastu Maruti: Descartes and the Lion mutually arise ;)
    Threedee Shepherd: and fall
    Eryc Perl: if I were to know the way. then I'd surly join the group. but I have the disadvantage being so green behind the ears
    Avastu Maruti: no coming or going, no here, no there, no arising or subsiding
    Vertigo Ethaniel: aren't we all? :)
    Vertigo Ethaniel: were all searching, it never ends
    Avastu Maruti: the search ends when the seeker is seen to have never existed
    Eryc Perl: I stopped searching.. it is the frustration factory of life
    Threedee Shepherd: no arising, yet the majesty of the mountain and the beauty of the valley
    Avastu Maruti: yes!
    Eryc Perl: instead I made my answers and began to live
    Avastu Maruti: the search ends when it's realized the search never began
    Adelene Dawner: Eryc - it's not usually so... whatever this is. Really.
    Adelene Dawner: Don't let 'em scare you off. ^.^
    Eryc Perl: I like this seat..
    Threedee Shepherd: True, at the moment we are just Playing at Being :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Funny how there can be no questions, and yet, still, Learning
    Avastu Maruti: Who learns?
    Threedee Shepherd: the poor peasant plodding along the WAY.
    Avastu Maruti: the idea that there is a WAY is the obstacle
    Eryc Perl: the peasant as poor as he may seem is not poor at all
    Vertigo Ethaniel: I keep deleting what I'm about to say, lol
    Threedee Shepherd: Eryc, you are correct!
    Eryc Perl: we could all benefit from being poor
    Avastu Maruti: Ann! A wonderful name!
    Vertigo Ethaniel: yes, the poor only need to realize what they have that is so valuable
    Adelene Dawner chuckles at Avastu.
    Vertigo Ethaniel: and the first step, is to realize what wealth really is
    Eryc Perl: by the way, are theses cushions from Ikea?
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha
    Threedee Shepherd: Yet, there is a difference between poverty, wealth and abuse
    Vertigo Ethaniel: abuse? care to elaborate?
    Eryc Perl: we are all here to experience everything. abuse is just an experience
    Threedee Shepherd: people actually living without clean water, sanitation and shelter in the shadow of the grand city, that's abuse
    Eryc Perl: when you realize the plan is in itself just a random set of events. you finally understand you have no control nor do you want control
    Threedee Shepherd: Compassion and control are different ways of being
    Eryc Perl: you live the day you experience the day you leave the day never to return to it again
    Threedee Shepherd: true
    Vertigo Ethaniel: but that is what memory is for... collecting experiences
    Eryc Perl: the table before us is too experiencing the day
    Threedee Shepherd: and tomorrow, if perchance I happen to help dig a well to provide clean water, that will be a pleasurable (might I dare say good) day
    Eryc Perl: the well will make the days of the beneficiaries different but not necessarily better
    Eryc Perl: longer life and better health aren't always the best path
    Eryc Perl: some have to die at childbirth to experience the well experience
    Threedee Shepherd: better health NOW is more valuable that ill health (physically speaking) right now.
    Eryc Perl: I wont pretend not to be thankful for the health I have .. but would I have been angered if I had not been so fortunate
    Vertigo Ethaniel: :) ... and goodbye
    Threedee Shepherd: perhaps not angered, but to go back to where I started, if the bad fortune could have been dealt with compassionately by those around you, and was not, that's abuse.
    Vertigo Ethaniel: personally, I want to live forever
    Vertigo Ethaniel: lol
    Eryc Perl: I will give you to your opinion. It is not mine but it is noble
    Eryc Perl: nobility is an experience and you experience away
    Threedee Shepherd: I am not trying to be noble, just human as in humane
    Adelene Dawner: All right, guys. Relatively speaking, it's 1:30 am here, and I've assumed the reality of going-to-work-tomorrow. Can someone send me the rest of the log?
    Threedee Shepherd: NO, we are officially done in terms of the LOG !!!!!
    Avastu Maruti: wow- it just HAPPENS to also be 1:30 here too!
    Eryc Perl: you have been a great 25 min thank you
    Threedee Shepherd: What a coincidence, here it is stardate 12345.78
    Vertigo Ethaniel: Adelene, working on a Saturday?
    Vertigo Ethaniel: its Saturday 5:30pm here
    Adelene Dawner: Yup.
    Eryc Perl: I feel a bit behind.. at 10:30
    Avastu Maruti: well then BEAM ME UP, Scotty
    Eryc Perl: is Saturday all I hope it will be?
    Threedee Shepherd: I can't that function is unavailable is what SL keeps telling me!
    Threedee Shepherd: Eryc, haha
    Avastu Maruti: damn! guess I have to walk
    Vertigo Ethaniel: Saturday was good
    Vertigo Ethaniel: you'll enjoy it :)
    Threedee Shepherd: not far I hope and I too will say goodnight, even though other around me say it is 11:30 at this locus
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Avastu Maruti: friend(s)
    Vertigo Ethaniel: on another note, has anyone actually been to nanzen-ji?
    Eryc Perl: thanks again
    Threedee Shepherd: bye for now folks, Eric and Vertigo, please come again
    Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste, Threedee. I'm usually here when I log on

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