The guardian for this session was Maxine Walden. All the comments are hers.

Doug and I arrived at the Pavilion at about the same time.

Maxine Walden: hi, doug

doug Sosa: hi maxine.

Maxine Walden: nice to see you again, after this morning's meeting

doug Sosa: yes, thanks

Maxine Walden: after this morning's meeting I am feeling a bit like I should ask about the 9 sec practice, but it is my style to let things flow a bit

doug Sosa: the strat should not be instantaneous.

Maxine Walden: agreed

Adams then joined us.

Maxine Walden: think I see Adams coming

doug Sosa: yes, hi addams.

Maxine Walden: hi, Adams

Adams Rubble: Hi Doug, Hi Maxine :)

Adams Rubble: You have me in a new family Doug :)

doug Sosa: ?

Adams Rubble: The Addams family

Recalling that Adams had had trouble with her knees I wondered how she was:

Maxine Walden: Adams, how are your knees?

Adams Rubble: Surprisingly good. Thank you Maxine

doug Sosa: ah, well, wat s a leter? A character!

Maxine Walden: I am so glad.

doug Sosa: ouch, knees?

Adams Rubble: 24 hours later it was better than it had been before :)

doug Sosa: what, what?

Maxine Walden: Doug, I just learned a couple of days ago that Adams had some trouble with her knees

Adams Rubble: Sprry Doug. I had arthroscopic surgery on one of my knees

Maxine Walden: maybe she could tell us more

Adams Rubble: my good knee :)

Maxine Walden: oh, my!

Adams Rubble: It was just a torn minescus

Doug offered some PaB practice advice:

doug Sosa: try the 9 sec while that is going on. I used to practice with my dentist "it hurts but noe me!"

doug Sosa: Didn't work.

Adams Rubble: so the surgeon cut it and sewed it and I am recuperating

Maxine Walden: yes, glad to hear that you are getting better, but sounds as if you have another vulnerable knee which i am sorry to hear about

doug Sosa: runnng, biking?

Feeling my last thought was scrambled I try to clarify, feeling dubious as I do so:

Maxine Walden: I mean I am pleased to hear about it, sorry you have it

Adams Rubble: Yes, the other one is quiet right now. That is in the future. Not to worry now :)

Adams Rubble: I am hoping to be back biking by September 2

Maxine Walden: ah, hope in the near future. Sounds like you enjoy cycling

Adams Rubble: It is the only decent way to get to work maxine :)

Maxine Walden: I see, I commute by cycle as well

Doug reminds us how 'unused' the mind can get to its job of coordinating the body

doug Sosa: i had minor surgery twice last year. intersting to watch te mind "forget" how it moves the bdy, and tryingto catch up.

Maxine Walden: oh, doug what was your experience?

Adams Rubble: Yes, I am experiencing that a little Doug

doug Sosa: well you expect the body to move in a way it doesn't. hard to explain. Like right now i've soem tightness in my little finger and when i pick up a handful of nuts, they tend to fall out the bottom of the closed hand - because it isn't fully closed.

doug Sosa: Then there is the moment of "recall".. but it passes.

Doug mentions the 9 second practice for the second time re bodily stress or concern

doug Sosa: but the 9 sec is like that all over - everything falls out and apart..

Maxine Walden: I see, yes, know what you are talking about, can feel so awkward when there is that little slip

Adams Rubble: I have to keep remind myself not to twist on the way up and down stairs

Maxine Walden: the 'wiring' must be so complex and needing reminders all the time, yes, Adams can imagine

And doug brings focus upon a central aspect of the 9 second practice

doug Sosa: but isn't part of the nine seconds to let go of assumptions, including that of the stability of the world?

Maxine Walden: indeed, doug, very interesting observation

Adams Rubble: Hey Moon :)

Maxine Walden: Hi, Moon

Maxine Walden: More thoughts about that, doug?

Moon Fargis: hello everyone

doug Sosa: hi moon, nope no more thoughts :)

Adams Rubble: :)

Feeling a bit self-conscious from a guardian meeting this morning where there was more stress upon the guardian focussing upon the 9 second practice I urge a bit but to no avail. But soon a simmering issue is mentioned by Adams and Moon

Maxine Walden: OK, just trying to be the guardian...doin' my job

Adams Rubble: You are doing it well Maxine :)

doug Sosa: yes.

Maxine Walden: Thanks, Adams. and doug

doug Sosa: its fun to stir the pot and then watch how it settles down - or doen't.

doug Sosa: doesn't.

Maxine Walden: right. bubble up, sometimes over the top...or not

Adams Rubble: Dug, you've done quite a bit of stirring this wek :)

Moon Fargis looks for a pot

doug Sosa: moon, we are all in it.

Maxine Walden: has doug done a lot of stirring this week?

Moon Fargis: ahhwe are in a pot yes...ahamm

Adams Rubble: Yes, Doug has been getting a number of us agitated and then leaving this week :)

Maxine Walden: oh, didn't know that!

doug Sosa: ouch. since i do not read the transcripts, I am not aware of that.

Maxine Walden: maybe Adams can fill us in

Adams Rubble: It's funny my memory for these things has not been all that reliable lately but Doug has been concerned with what we owe the world

Adams Rubble: and our responses have been very undisciplined

Adams Rubble: so we are a bit at pains trying to work this out

doug Sosa: maybe it is just tao avoid what the world owes us - a swift kick in the but. :)

Adams Rubble: :)

Maxine Walden: somehow I feel a bit out of the loop in this topic, but very glad to just listen

Doug picks upon on a typo/slip which many of us have observed can add wisdom to the conversation

doug Sosa: interesting slip, i typed tao for to.

Maxine Walden: saw that

Adams Rubble: yes

Adams Rubble: I am too. I have always been politically active but I am on to something different now

Adams Rubble: I need time to work it out

Adams Rubble: So I find the topic a little frustrating at the moment

Maxine Walden: guess we each have a concern about the state of the world and what we can/should do. But maybe it can be overdone, the concern and discussion

Adams Rubble: Hello Wol :)

doug Sosa: to me, artistically active, politically active, architecturally active, internat active - theya re all related.

Wol then joins us.

doug Sosa: hi wol.

Maxine Walden: yes, doug, that is close to my situation as well. Hi, Wol

Wol Euler: hello all, sorry I'm late.

Adams Rubble: np

Maxine Walden: glad to have you join us when you can

Given the reaction Adams and Moon had mentioned about doug 'stirring the pot and then leaving the conversation' some tension is about to build

doug Sosa: and I will need to leave in a few minutes. do we have a kind of best practice" around leaving while theconversation still goes?

Maxine Walden: for me, I feel so grateful for the opportunities in the world, and for little everyday things that I feel are 'given' that I find I do little things back which is really a pleasure

Adams Rubble: You'll have to lead us on that Doug :)

Maxine Walden: 'best practice' doug, when the conversation is flowing? Are you wondering about what Adams mentioned earlier?

Wol Euler: with your wealth of experience of the subject :-)

doug Sosa: but I don't feel good about.

doug Sosa: about it.

Doug may be picking up on the wish for a gradual leaving rather than the abrupt leaving which occurs in SL

doug Sosa: I wish there were a slow dissolve button.

Wol Euler: I'm sorry, that was a silly joke.

Adams Rubble: It is not all that important to things Doug. I just thought you should know. Maybe I should have talked to you privately. I am sorry about that

doug Sosa: only a few tears..

I try to summarize what I feel might be going on in the conversation:

Maxine Walden: I am gathering a sense that when doug leaves at about 30 min past the hour, that it feels like he is 'leaving' the conversation sooner than folks would wish

doug Sosa: no I am fine. its just that i realize each tme its time to go that i fond it awkward.

Adams Rubble: We have to free to mcome and go as necessary

Adams Rubble: be free

doug Sosa: Maybe just a :) and poof.

Trying to appreciate the conflict between what we wish of our partners in conversation and their need for freedom of thought and action I suggest

Maxine Walden: It might say something about how we all wish to have others in the conversation for the whole time, when of course each individual must set his/her own time

Adams Rubble: yes, maxine

Maxine Walden: it might be a signal of affection, doug, that others notice when you go

doug Sosa: I am blushing.

doug Sosa: which conincides with ..... :)

Adams Rubble: bye Doug

Maxine Walden: oh, he did go poof!

Doug had de-materialized, which of course we all do when we leave SL, and from his statements this was probably nothing out of the ordinary from his perspective. It was intriguing that we, the left ones, felt rather suddenly 'left'. But there then began amidst us a discussion involving 'being engaged or not' in terms of doug's early leaving of the sessions, not reading the transcripts, but also from another angle, Wol's reading her email during the discussion, seeming a bit unengaged to the rest of us.

Adams Rubble: Too fast for us :)

Maxine Walden: caught me by surprise as well. What would be better? Giving more notice?

Moon Fargis: <- back

Adams Rubble: Did you put up the log Wol?

Moon Fargis: hallo wol :)

Wol Euler: oh sorry

Wol Euler: I was reading mail on my laptopt

Wol Euler: um, remind me which log that was? thte session with Adele and Gaya and I?

Adams Rubble: The one I ws going to do it but left before you...the one with the line about Doug

Maxine Walden: maybe we are wondering about how engaged each of us is in these sessions...

Wol Euler: "hope doug reads this"?

Adams Rubble: yes

Wol Euler: it has been posted, but not by me.

Adams Rubble: I was wondering if you were just referring to it

Adams Rubble: I wanted to tell you that he hasn't read any

I comment more about my experience when I feel the conversation partner may not be inengaged in terms of not seeming to be fully attentive or present

Maxine Walden: I know when I feel really engaged in a session I can feel a bit hurt if someone else in the conversation seems less engaged

Maxine Walden: as if the topic I have been so valuing seems less valued by the other

Adams Rubble: Do you mean when they make comments moving away from the topic?

Maxine Walden: and it may come down to how invested each of us in the topic...

Adams Rubble: yes

Maxine Walden: more than move away from the topic, I think I mean the seeming presence of the other, whether they are as fully present as I might wish them to be

Adams Rubble: ah

Adams Rubble: I think that bothers me more when nobody else is engaged at all :)

Moon and Adams have an interesting exchange about the quiet listener and the inattentive person, how it is difficult to tell in SL. There seems to be a lot of emotion in this exchange a little further on

Moon Fargis: hmm well thats how conversations usuallly are

Maxine Walden: , how so, Moon?

Moon Fargis: i never found a allround topic so far everyone could say something to

Wol Euler nods

Moon Fargis: there will be always listeners, agreers and decliners

Moon Fargis: thats what a good conversation is made of

Adams Rubble: There is no way to tell when someone is listening in SL

Maxine Walden: i see your point

Moon Fargis: there is no way to tell he is not listening :)

Adams Rubble: They may be listening or may be looking at their email (sorry Wol :)

Moon Fargis: exept you ask him

And we happen on the pain about being straightforward: is that insensitivity or expressiveness?

Wol Euler acknowleges the painful and embarrassing truth.

Adams Rubble seems to be terribly insensitive today

Maxine Walden: oh?

Wol Euler: lol

Maxine Walden: maybe expressive, not insensitive

Wol Euler places a hand on your arm. It was a joke.

Moon Fargis: hehe

Adams Rubble: thanks Wol

Adams Rubble: and everyone :)

Aware of the pain in leaving without forwarning I give some lead time before my departure

Maxine Walden: (just to say I will need to leave in about 15 min as I have another meeting at 2pm SL -- giving forward notice)

Moon Fargis: well thats ok :) we talk already for 41 minutes hehe

Adams Rubble: :)

Maxine Walden: right, maybe there are some hopes/expectations of how long we hope each other can stay or participate, just trying to appreciate that concern

Adams Rubble: thanks Maxine

Moon Fargis throws away his dict wich actually flamed up becasue of heavy page change speed

Wondering whether some of the emotion in the discussion this session was linked with the guardian meeting several hours previously I wonder:

Maxine Walden: any other thoughts from this morning's meeting or the 9 sec practice

Maxine Walden: ?

And Adams and Wol did express some confusion and concern about guardian on call roles becoming more tightly defined

Adams Rubble: I found I was a bit confused by the topic

Adams Rubble: It seemed rather thrown at us unxexpectedly. I hope to talk to Pema

Moon Fargis: well have nothing to say , i just came to listen a bit

Adams Rubble: Glad you did Moon :)

Adams Rubble: I have to reread the log from this morning

Maxine Walden: Adams, what seemed 'thrown' at us this morning?

Moon Fargis: well yes.. so less time lateley.. not even time to go to the pab guardianm eetings anymmore

Adams Rubble: The topic of what guardians should be going at our sessions

Maxine Walden: ah, sorry about that Moon, I know that feeling of 'less time' however

Wol Euler: yes, I felt taht too, that a change of directio and emphasis was being expected of us. A change in the role of GoC.

Maxine Walden: yes, Adams, I did get the sense of 'something we should be doing more of' which felt a bit constraining

Moon Fargis: my excuses i have to o now.. time calls me... heh

Adams Rubble: It never was clear to me

Adams Rubble: bye Moon

Wol Euler: bye moon, take care.

Maxine Walden: bye, Moon, thanks for coming

Wol Euler: tschuß, schlaf gut.

Maxine Walden: Wol, what was your experience this morning?

Wol Euler: I was surprised by the change (I experienced it as a change).

Wol Euler: I understood the GoC to be a greeter and facilitaror, not a guide or moderator.

Wol Euler: IT was not my understanding that the GoC should attempt to set a path of discourse.

Adams suggests the origin of the 'change' in guardian role coming from the administrative meeting of the overseeing body, Kira.

Adams Rubble: In thinking about it, I think it is a topic which came up at the Kira meeting and we joined an already ongoing conversation

Maxine Walden: ah...yes, I see your point.

Wol Euler: that feel very un-PaBish to me

Wol Euler: that applied directionality.

Adams Rubble: We were told not to worry when we became guardians. Nothing to do but be here

Wol Euler: I hve enjoyed the "looseness" of sessions here, where people discuss what they find important.

I wondered about the strains between 'more organization' and spontaneity which may have been in the earlier guardian meeting and we wonder about possible sequelae

Maxine Walden: we may be seeing the strains that groups may go through when the group gets to be near institutional size: more structure

Wol Euler nods

Maxine Walden: I personally would not wish to see us firm into an institution and will speak to keep it otherwise

Adams Rubble: I wonder too, that as we go on and each of experience growth, that we will find some greater differences in our interests. Don't know...jusst wondering

Maxine Walden: that may be, Adams, and the issue may be how much difference can be borne. Hoping a lot of difference

Adams Rubble: yes, that would be good

Adams Rubble: In my experience, not every meeting was relevant when I first joined, and not every meeting is relevant now

Maxine Walden: for that is the creative potential I think. If there is some 'gospel' or 'right way' that would be very uncreative, from my viewpoing

Adams Rubble: Some are exactly what I need at the time

Adams Rubble: yes Maxine

Adams mentions the value of being able to discuss some of our doubts and concerns, giving voice to them highlights them and possibly relieves them of that isolated, lonely quality which can otherwise hang on

Adams Rubble: I know you are leaving soon, and I want to get it down that it is good we are discussing this among ourselves. Gives us more depth to explore the topic

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Maxine Walden: yes, agree, and ...Wol, you have other ideas?

Wol Euler: mm, not at present no.

Maxine Walden: It does feel valuable to be able to discuss these doubts/concerns openly and freely

Wol Euler: I was remembering sessions that had been particularyly interesting, and wndering how I as guardina attempting to enforce a timetable would have handled them.

Maxine Walden: For me the openness allows the support and airing of concerns which then do not feel so personal

Wol brings up some of the concerns which do demand more structure and clarity such as when one visiter to a PaB session, whose full name I agreed to delete from the log, seemed to dominate, even disrupt the group

Wol Euler: The one where C lectured us for 30 mins on what we do wrong, for instance. (/better edit his name ot of hte log)

Wol Euler: Would I have to squelch him, cut him off?

Adams Rubble: (more than one)

Maxine Walden: enforce is a word which seems rather foreign to these discussions. I will take C's name from the log

Wol Euler: yeah

Adams Rubble: I think that situation is very different from any of the others

Maxine Walden: yes, there are those boundaries for sure....guess it is a balance re creative discussions vs harangues

Wol Euler: well, no, in my experrience it happens quite often.

Adams Rubble: Some people come just to disrupt

Wol Euler: there was another last week.

Maxine Walden: oh, really?

Wol Euler: and ys, that is true, and they can and should be dealt with summariliy.

Adams Rubble: Yes, the others have been shorter and one timers in my experience

Wol Euler: but not un-interesting, and not un-useful, I found.

Adams Rubble: There was one last week that everyone just ognored

At this point, I had to leave and wondered whether Adams or Wol would wish to bring any further log after I left

Maxine Walden: (oh, gosh, have to go. Would wither of you wish to take the rest of the log and add to where I leave off?)

Wol Euler: I must go too, actually, autologging meeting.

Adams Rubble: We can stop here

Maxine Walden: right. Then, bye for now. Great conversation