2008.08.24 13:00 - Comings and goings

    The guardian for this session was Maxine Walden. All the comments are hers.

    Doug and I arrived at the Pavilion at about the same time.

    Maxine Walden: hi, doug

    doug Sosa: hi maxine.

    Maxine Walden: nice to see you again, after this morning's meeting

    doug Sosa: yes, thanks

    Maxine Walden: after this morning's meeting I am feeling a bit like I should ask about the 9 sec practice, but it is my style to let things flow a bit

    doug Sosa: the strat should not be instantaneous.

    Maxine Walden: agreed

    Adams then joined us.

    Maxine Walden: think I see Adams coming

    doug Sosa: yes, hi addams.

    Maxine Walden: hi, Adams

    Adams Rubble: Hi Doug, Hi Maxine :)

    Adams Rubble: You have me in a new family Doug :)

    doug Sosa: ?

    Adams Rubble: The Addams family

    Recalling that Adams had had trouble with her knees I wondered how she was:

    Maxine Walden: Adams, how are your knees?

    Adams Rubble: Surprisingly good. Thank you Maxine

    doug Sosa: ah, well, wat s a leter? A character!

    Maxine Walden: I am so glad.

    doug Sosa: ouch, knees?

    Adams Rubble: 24 hours later it was better than it had been before :)

    doug Sosa: what, what?

    Maxine Walden: Doug, I just learned a couple of days ago that Adams had some trouble with her knees

    Adams Rubble: Sprry Doug. I had arthroscopic surgery on one of my knees

    Maxine Walden: maybe she could tell us more

    Adams Rubble: my good knee :)

    Maxine Walden: oh, my!

    Adams Rubble: It was just a torn minescus

    Doug offered some PaB practice advice:

    doug Sosa: try the 9 sec while that is going on. I used to practice with my dentist "it hurts but noe me!"

    doug Sosa: Didn't work.

    Adams Rubble: so the surgeon cut it and sewed it and I am recuperating

    Maxine Walden: yes, glad to hear that you are getting better, but sounds as if you have another vulnerable knee which i am sorry to hear about

    doug Sosa: runnng, biking?

    Feeling my last thought was scrambled I try to clarify, feeling dubious as I do so:

    Maxine Walden: I mean I am pleased to hear about it, sorry you have it

    Adams Rubble: Yes, the other one is quiet right now. That is in the future. Not to worry now :)

    Adams Rubble: I am hoping to be back biking by September 2

    Maxine Walden: ah, hope in the near future. Sounds like you enjoy cycling

    Adams Rubble: It is the only decent way to get to work maxine :)

    Maxine Walden: I see, I commute by cycle as well

    Doug reminds us how 'unused' the mind can get to its job of coordinating the body

    doug Sosa: i had minor surgery twice last year. intersting to watch te mind "forget" how it moves the bdy, and tryingto catch up.

    Maxine Walden: oh, doug what was your experience?

    Adams Rubble: Yes, I am experiencing that a little Doug

    doug Sosa: well you expect the body to move in a way it doesn't. hard to explain. Like right now i've soem tightness in my little finger and when i pick up a handful of nuts, they tend to fall out the bottom of the closed hand - because it isn't fully closed.

    doug Sosa: Then there is the moment of "recall".. but it passes.

    Doug mentions the 9 second practice for the second time re bodily stress or concern

    doug Sosa: but the 9 sec is like that all over - everything falls out and apart..

    Maxine Walden: I see, yes, know what you are talking about, can feel so awkward when there is that little slip

    Adams Rubble: I have to keep remind myself not to twist on the way up and down stairs

    Maxine Walden: the 'wiring' must be so complex and needing reminders all the time, yes, Adams can imagine

    And doug brings focus upon a central aspect of the 9 second practice

    doug Sosa: but isn't part of the nine seconds to let go of assumptions, including that of the stability of the world?

    Maxine Walden: indeed, doug, very interesting observation

    Adams Rubble: Hey Moon :)

    Maxine Walden: Hi, Moon

    Maxine Walden: More thoughts about that, doug?

    Moon Fargis: hello everyone

    doug Sosa: hi moon, nope no more thoughts :)

    Adams Rubble: :)

    Feeling a bit self-conscious from a guardian meeting this morning where there was more stress upon the guardian focussing upon the 9 second practice I urge a bit but to no avail. But soon a simmering issue is mentioned by Adams and Moon

    Maxine Walden: OK, just trying to be the guardian...doin' my job

    Adams Rubble: You are doing it well Maxine :)

    doug Sosa: yes.

    Maxine Walden: Thanks, Adams. and doug

    doug Sosa: its fun to stir the pot and then watch how it settles down - or doen't.

    doug Sosa: doesn't.

    Maxine Walden: right. bubble up, sometimes over the top...or not

    Adams Rubble: Dug, you've done quite a bit of stirring this wek :)

    Moon Fargis looks for a pot

    doug Sosa: moon, we are all in it.

    Maxine Walden: has doug done a lot of stirring this week?

    Moon Fargis: ahhwe are in a pot yes...ahamm

    Adams Rubble: Yes, Doug has been getting a number of us agitated and then leaving this week :)

    Maxine Walden: oh, didn't know that!

    doug Sosa: ouch. since i do not read the transcripts, I am not aware of that.

    Maxine Walden: maybe Adams can fill us in

    Adams Rubble: It's funny my memory for these things has not been all that reliable lately but Doug has been concerned with what we owe the world

    Adams Rubble: and our responses have been very undisciplined

    Adams Rubble: so we are a bit at pains trying to work this out

    doug Sosa: maybe it is just tao avoid what the world owes us - a swift kick in the but. :)

    Adams Rubble: :)

    Maxine Walden: somehow I feel a bit out of the loop in this topic, but very glad to just listen

    Doug picks upon on a typo/slip which many of us have observed can add wisdom to the conversation

    doug Sosa: interesting slip, i typed tao for to.

    Maxine Walden: saw that

    Adams Rubble: yes

    Adams Rubble: I am too. I have always been politically active but I am on to something different now

    Adams Rubble: I need time to work it out

    Adams Rubble: So I find the topic a little frustrating at the moment

    Maxine Walden: guess we each have a concern about the state of the world and what we can/should do. But maybe it can be overdone, the concern and discussion

    Adams Rubble: Hello Wol :)

    doug Sosa: to me, artistically active, politically active, architecturally active, internat active - theya re all related.

    Wol then joins us.

    doug Sosa: hi wol.

    Maxine Walden: yes, doug, that is close to my situation as well. Hi, Wol

    Wol Euler: hello all, sorry I'm late.

    Adams Rubble: np

    Maxine Walden: glad to have you join us when you can

    Given the reaction Adams and Moon had mentioned about doug 'stirring the pot and then leaving the conversation' some tension is about to build

    doug Sosa: and I will need to leave in a few minutes. do we have a kind of best practice" around leaving while theconversation still goes?

    Maxine Walden: for me, I feel so grateful for the opportunities in the world, and for little everyday things that I feel are 'given' that I find I do little things back which is really a pleasure

    Adams Rubble: You'll have to lead us on that Doug :)

    Maxine Walden: 'best practice' doug, when the conversation is flowing? Are you wondering about what Adams mentioned earlier?

    Wol Euler: with your wealth of experience of the subject :-)

    doug Sosa: but I don't feel good about.

    doug Sosa: about it.

    Doug may be picking up on the wish for a gradual leaving rather than the abrupt leaving which occurs in SL

    doug Sosa: I wish there were a slow dissolve button.

    Wol Euler: I'm sorry, that was a silly joke.

    Adams Rubble: It is not all that important to things Doug. I just thought you should know. Maybe I should have talked to you privately. I am sorry about that

    doug Sosa: only a few tears..

    I try to summarize what I feel might be going on in the conversation:

    Maxine Walden: I am gathering a sense that when doug leaves at about 30 min past the hour, that it feels like he is 'leaving' the conversation sooner than folks would wish

    doug Sosa: no I am fine. its just that i realize each tme its time to go that i fond it awkward.

    Adams Rubble: We have to free to mcome and go as necessary

    Adams Rubble: be free

    doug Sosa: Maybe just a :) and poof.

    Trying to appreciate the conflict between what we wish of our partners in conversation and their need for freedom of thought and action I suggest

    Maxine Walden: It might say something about how we all wish to have others in the conversation for the whole time, when of course each individual must set his/her own time

    Adams Rubble: yes, maxine

    Maxine Walden: it might be a signal of affection, doug, that others notice when you go

    doug Sosa: I am blushing.

    doug Sosa: which conincides with ..... :)

    Adams Rubble: bye Doug

    Maxine Walden: oh, he did go poof!

    Doug had de-materialized, which of course we all do when we leave SL, and from his statements this was probably nothing out of the ordinary from his perspective. It was intriguing that we, the left ones, felt rather suddenly 'left'. But there then began amidst us a discussion involving 'being engaged or not' in terms of doug's early leaving of the sessions, not reading the transcripts, but also from another angle, Wol's reading her email during the discussion, seeming a bit unengaged to the rest of us.

    Adams Rubble: Too fast for us :)

    Maxine Walden: caught me by surprise as well. What would be better? Giving more notice?

    Moon Fargis: <- back

    Adams Rubble: Did you put up the log Wol?

    Moon Fargis: hallo wol :)

    Wol Euler: oh sorry

    Wol Euler: I was reading mail on my laptopt

    Wol Euler: um, remind me which log that was? thte session with Adele and Gaya and I?

    Adams Rubble: The one I ws going to do it but left before you...the one with the line about Doug

    Maxine Walden: maybe we are wondering about how engaged each of us is in these sessions...

    Wol Euler: "hope doug reads this"?

    Adams Rubble: yes

    Wol Euler: it has been posted, but not by me.

    Adams Rubble: I was wondering if you were just referring to it

    Adams Rubble: I wanted to tell you that he hasn't read any

    I comment more about my experience when I feel the conversation partner may not be inengaged in terms of not seeming to be fully attentive or present

    Maxine Walden: I know when I feel really engaged in a session I can feel a bit hurt if someone else in the conversation seems less engaged

    Maxine Walden: as if the topic I have been so valuing seems less valued by the other

    Adams Rubble: Do you mean when they make comments moving away from the topic?

    Maxine Walden: and it may come down to how invested each of us in the topic...

    Adams Rubble: yes

    Maxine Walden: more than move away from the topic, I think I mean the seeming presence of the other, whether they are as fully present as I might wish them to be

    Adams Rubble: ah

    Adams Rubble: I think that bothers me more when nobody else is engaged at all :)

    Moon and Adams have an interesting exchange about the quiet listener and the inattentive person, how it is difficult to tell in SL. There seems to be a lot of emotion in this exchange a little further on

    Moon Fargis: hmm well thats how conversations usuallly are

    Maxine Walden: , how so, Moon?

    Moon Fargis: i never found a allround topic so far everyone could say something to

    Wol Euler nods

    Moon Fargis: there will be always listeners, agreers and decliners

    Moon Fargis: thats what a good conversation is made of

    Adams Rubble: There is no way to tell when someone is listening in SL

    Maxine Walden: i see your point

    Moon Fargis: there is no way to tell he is not listening :)

    Adams Rubble: They may be listening or may be looking at their email (sorry Wol :)

    Moon Fargis: exept you ask him

    And we happen on the pain about being straightforward: is that insensitivity or expressiveness?

    Wol Euler acknowleges the painful and embarrassing truth.

    Adams Rubble seems to be terribly insensitive today

    Maxine Walden: oh?

    Wol Euler: lol

    Maxine Walden: maybe expressive, not insensitive

    Wol Euler places a hand on your arm. It was a joke.

    Moon Fargis: hehe

    Adams Rubble: thanks Wol

    Adams Rubble: and everyone :)

    Aware of the pain in leaving without forwarning I give some lead time before my departure

    Maxine Walden: (just to say I will need to leave in about 15 min as I have another meeting at 2pm SL -- giving forward notice)

    Moon Fargis: well thats ok :) we talk already for 41 minutes hehe

    Adams Rubble: :)

    Maxine Walden: right, maybe there are some hopes/expectations of how long we hope each other can stay or participate, just trying to appreciate that concern

    Adams Rubble: thanks Maxine

    Moon Fargis throws away his dict wich actually flamed up becasue of heavy page change speed

    Wondering whether some of the emotion in the discussion this session was linked with the guardian meeting several hours previously I wonder:

    Maxine Walden: any other thoughts from this morning's meeting or the 9 sec practice

    Maxine Walden: ?

    And Adams and Wol did express some confusion and concern about guardian on call roles becoming more tightly defined

    Adams Rubble: I found I was a bit confused by the topic

    Adams Rubble: It seemed rather thrown at us unxexpectedly. I hope to talk to Pema

    Moon Fargis: well have nothing to say , i just came to listen a bit

    Adams Rubble: Glad you did Moon :)

    Adams Rubble: I have to reread the log from this morning

    Maxine Walden: Adams, what seemed 'thrown' at us this morning?

    Moon Fargis: well yes.. so less time lateley.. not even time to go to the pab guardianm eetings anymmore

    Adams Rubble: The topic of what guardians should be going at our sessions

    Maxine Walden: ah, sorry about that Moon, I know that feeling of 'less time' however

    Wol Euler: yes, I felt taht too, that a change of directio and emphasis was being expected of us. A change in the role of GoC.

    Maxine Walden: yes, Adams, I did get the sense of 'something we should be doing more of' which felt a bit constraining

    Moon Fargis: my excuses i have to o now.. time calls me... heh

    Adams Rubble: It never was clear to me

    Adams Rubble: bye Moon

    Wol Euler: bye moon, take care.

    Maxine Walden: bye, Moon, thanks for coming

    Wol Euler: tschuß, schlaf gut.

    Maxine Walden: Wol, what was your experience this morning?

    Wol Euler: I was surprised by the change (I experienced it as a change).

    Wol Euler: I understood the GoC to be a greeter and facilitaror, not a guide or moderator.

    Wol Euler: IT was not my understanding that the GoC should attempt to set a path of discourse.

    Adams suggests the origin of the 'change' in guardian role coming from the administrative meeting of the overseeing body, Kira.

    Adams Rubble: In thinking about it, I think it is a topic which came up at the Kira meeting and we joined an already ongoing conversation

    Maxine Walden: ah...yes, I see your point.

    Wol Euler: that feel very un-PaBish to me

    Wol Euler: that applied directionality.

    Adams Rubble: We were told not to worry when we became guardians. Nothing to do but be here

    Wol Euler: I hve enjoyed the "looseness" of sessions here, where people discuss what they find important.

    I wondered about the strains between 'more organization' and spontaneity which may have been in the earlier guardian meeting and we wonder about possible sequelae

    Maxine Walden: we may be seeing the strains that groups may go through when the group gets to be near institutional size: more structure

    Wol Euler nods

    Maxine Walden: I personally would not wish to see us firm into an institution and will speak to keep it otherwise

    Adams Rubble: I wonder too, that as we go on and each of experience growth, that we will find some greater differences in our interests. Don't know...jusst wondering

    Maxine Walden: that may be, Adams, and the issue may be how much difference can be borne. Hoping a lot of difference

    Adams Rubble: yes, that would be good

    Adams Rubble: In my experience, not every meeting was relevant when I first joined, and not every meeting is relevant now

    Maxine Walden: for that is the creative potential I think. If there is some 'gospel' or 'right way' that would be very uncreative, from my viewpoing

    Adams Rubble: Some are exactly what I need at the time

    Adams Rubble: yes Maxine

    Adams mentions the value of being able to discuss some of our doubts and concerns, giving voice to them highlights them and possibly relieves them of that isolated, lonely quality which can otherwise hang on

    Adams Rubble: I know you are leaving soon, and I want to get it down that it is good we are discussing this among ourselves. Gives us more depth to explore the topic

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Maxine Walden: yes, agree, and ...Wol, you have other ideas?

    Wol Euler: mm, not at present no.

    Maxine Walden: It does feel valuable to be able to discuss these doubts/concerns openly and freely

    Wol Euler: I was remembering sessions that had been particularyly interesting, and wndering how I as guardina attempting to enforce a timetable would have handled them.

    Maxine Walden: For me the openness allows the support and airing of concerns which then do not feel so personal

    Wol brings up some of the concerns which do demand more structure and clarity such as when one visiter to a PaB session, whose full name I agreed to delete from the log, seemed to dominate, even disrupt the group

    Wol Euler: The one where C lectured us for 30 mins on what we do wrong, for instance. (/better edit his name ot of hte log)

    Wol Euler: Would I have to squelch him, cut him off?

    Adams Rubble: (more than one)

    Maxine Walden: enforce is a word which seems rather foreign to these discussions. I will take C's name from the log

    Wol Euler: yeah

    Adams Rubble: I think that situation is very different from any of the others

    Maxine Walden: yes, there are those boundaries for sure....guess it is a balance re creative discussions vs harangues

    Wol Euler: well, no, in my experrience it happens quite often.

    Adams Rubble: Some people come just to disrupt

    Wol Euler: there was another last week.

    Maxine Walden: oh, really?

    Wol Euler: and ys, that is true, and they can and should be dealt with summariliy.

    Adams Rubble: Yes, the others have been shorter and one timers in my experience

    Wol Euler: but not un-interesting, and not un-useful, I found.

    Adams Rubble: There was one last week that everyone just ognored

    At this point, I had to leave and wondered whether Adams or Wol would wish to bring any further log after I left

    Maxine Walden: (oh, gosh, have to go. Would wither of you wish to take the rest of the log and add to where I leave off?)

    Wol Euler: I must go too, actually, autologging meeting.

    Adams Rubble: We can stop here

    Maxine Walden: right. Then, bye for now. Great conversation

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