2008.09.04 07:00 - Why We Alt

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    A good friend of the group came to visit as their alt which brought up a lot of interesting ideas.  Enjoy.  Cal

    Hello There :) We find a new version of an old friend :) ...

    Caledonia Heron: hey there :)
    B: Hi Caledonia.
    B would first like to point out he used to use a female AV.
    Caledonia Heron: lol, ok :) thanks for letting me know
    B: No problem Cal
    Caledonia Heron: does it seem different interacting as a male?
    B: Yes very much so
    Caledonia Heron: like people treat you differently?
    Caledonia Heron: or you act differently?
    B: Both
    B: I haven't zoomed to look at you yet. Don't think I would.
    B: My female AV would have no problem doing so
    Caledonia Heron: what do you mean?
    B: It's difficult to explain why. Just feels um... akward
    Caledonia Heron: hey Doug :)
    B: Hi doug
    doug Sosa: hi, sorry to be late, battery seems to be running down on kitchen clock.
    Caledonia Heron: well, I am ok with it so feel free ... my hair is always perfect in sl :)
    Caledonia Heron: time to pop in a new one Doug :)
    doug Sosa: yep.
    B: doug... I'd like to let you know that you also know 'A', my female AV
    doug Sosa: ah, well, i have my preferences :)
    Wol Euler: good morning all :-)
    B: Ah :-)
    Caledonia Heron: hey Wol :)
    doug Sosa: hi wol.
    Wol Euler: hello cal, doug, B
    B: Hi Wol
    Caledonia Heron: Wol, we were discussing the fact that 'A' is using this male av today and how that is a different experience
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Wol Euler: fascinating.
    doug Sosa: yes.

    The relationship between our primary and alt avatars...

    B: Rather confusing for me
    doug Sosa: ?
    Wol Euler nods.
    B: Just mentioned to Cal that I find it akward to look at her while 'A' would have no problem doing so
    Wol Euler: hmmm. Interesting. So you do embody differently already? Good :-)
    doug Sosa: How come its different?
    B: doug, wish I know
    Wol Euler: the avatar _is_ the body for many people, doug.
    Wol Euler: I should perhaps state for the record that I have a differently-gendered alt account
    doug Sosa: yes, but why would changing avatar make looking at someone else feel different?
    Wol Euler: it feels very different being in that body.
    Wol Euler: because the alt is (at least for me) a different personality, it's not just a suit that you put on
    Caledonia Heron: ah, I can see that
    Caledonia Heron: I took my husband's av shopping ... girl avs act differently to him
    B: I disagreed with Wol on this before 'B'... now I'm not so sure about my existing point of view
    Caledonia Heron: maybe I shouldn't have made him so cute :)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    B: :-)
    Wol Euler: (afk for a sec, sorry)
    B: Sure
    Caledonia Heron: to take a run at your question Doug... it's kind of like the boundaries of sitting too close maybe ... that you may not feel free to look at someone
    doug Sosa: ok, but why should a different avatar have that effect? I imagine its because your different avatar stirs up different expectations in the other person behind their avatar?
    Wol Euler: back, and reading
    Caledonia Heron: maybe it's partly related to the level of immersion.... do you relate physically to your avatar Doug? have physiological responses in certain situations?
    Wol Euler: in my experience, and the people I've spoken to tend to confirm it
    B: wb
    Wol Euler: the first av you build is your RL self projected into SL
    doug Sosa: yes, but so far i have been more interested in my body reactions than in the avatars.
    Wol Euler: when you make an alt, it is "not you"
    doug Sosa: I have sort of tried to be myself here, hard enough
    Caledonia Heron: yes Wol, that makes sense
    Wol Euler: I was quite surprised to discover how independent of "me" my alt was :-)
    Caledonia Heron: kind of like your first novel is autobiographical in nature, the second you are more free to make up

    Why do people have alts? ...

    doug Sosa: why would i want to be an alt?
    Wol Euler: to the point that he doesn't come here, PaB didn't "take" at all for him.
    Wol Euler: there's no reason at all why _you_ should want to, Doug.
    Caledonia Heron: to be different personalities Doug, interact differently, separate work from fun, try being a furry or a gorean.... lots of reasons
    B: For me doug, I had had strong resistance to try out a male AV. Had an impulse a couple of days ago... that was it, nothing more.
    doug Sosa: that is plenty.
    Wol Euler: I wanted to expriment. Wol is too well known, and known to be female. She couldn't just put on a boy suit, it wouldn't be credible
    Wol Euler: particularly not to me :-)
    doug Sosa: The sexualized feeling that get stirred up, either way, seem to me to reside inthe RL person, not the avatar. The AV is just a bridge..
    B: Had a taste when I was using an insect AV... how that made me talk so much less and felt 'supressed' & 'enclosed'
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    B: Felt also 'secure', detached from the human beings
    Caledonia Heron: sure Doug, it's all in the head :) ....
    Caledonia Heron: maybe it allows us to look at Being differently also
    doug Sosa: but isn't the point of meditation - one point - is to try and get out of the head and into ...
    Wol Euler: just like RL too, the purists would say...
    B: Um... I'm discovering different side of RL person which could help in PaB and meditations
    Wol Euler: http://warburton.typepad.com/liquidlearning/2008/01/loving-your-ava.html
    Wol Euler: that's an article about why people make alts, written by a SLED group member who does run several.
    doug Sosa: i can see that, it is just that my figuring out RL is not at all complete, nad adding another layer of disguise complicatesnthe process. but perhaps the play side is ultimately clarifying, making us far less dependent on the RL mask.
    B: Thank you Wol
    Wol Euler: Storm mentioned it here a few days ago and I asked him for the link
    B: Yes doug
    B: More I know of RL self, better I can see Being
    Wol Euler: *selves* really. Even leaving aside this business of making alts :-)
    B: Yes Wol
    Caledonia Heron: sounds plausible B
    B: Will find out more as I go along
    Wol Euler grins. that you will, including a few surprises :-)
    doug Sosa: the current B seems to me ambiguous as to gender.
    B: Yes hope for not too a rough ride Wol
    Caledonia Heron: as I mentioned I shopped for my husbands av, felt a little taken aback by skin shopping, ...all those foreign parts ... yikes
    B: doug, I could only manage to be a teenager if that explains a little

    Doug takes off...

    doug Sosa: saved by the bell... :) need to go. bye.
    Wol Euler: bye doug
    B: Bye doug
    Caledonia Heron: lol, uncomfortable Doug?
    Wol Euler: probably yes, but he always goes at this time :-)
    Wol Euler grins
    Caledonia Heron: sure, just a bit of fun
    Wol Euler: (maybe that should come out of the log?)
    Caledonia Heron: nah, it's ok, he's a big boy and he knows I'm kidding :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    B: :-)

    What's going on in the 9sec world?...

    Caledonia Heron: are you guys still doing the 9secs or variations thereof?
    Wol Euler: mmmmm, no. not really.
    B: Yes I do as much as I can
    Caledonia Heron: interesting Wol ... have you taken it as far as you like, or it's not for you..... ?
    Wol Euler: I do sit and take stock of myself, as it were, but irregularly, more as a conscious exercise in determining why I am feeling or doing something in a particularl way right now.
    Wol Euler: I found the disciplined timetable approach tremendously intrusive, it took me forever to get back into the flow of working after stopping like that.
    Wol Euler: Perhaps if I'd carried on, I might have learned to overcome that.
    Caledonia Heron: the time table is arbitrary ... you can do it as you like.... I do.... it's the repetitive factor that improves access to the Being aspect we discuss
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, I see that happening. The timetable just doesn't suit my working style.
    Wol Euler: work will probably settle down for the rest of the month, I might try again more systematically
    Caledonia Heron: if you do not practice 9sec stuff, does what we talk about make sense?
    Wol Euler: the details of the practice, no. but the experience of consciousness, yes. the question of identity and "me-ness" that come up in discussing Being are also present when talking about having multiple avs.
    Caledonia Heron: ah, ok, point taken
    Wol Euler: perhaps that's why I took to this group so well.
    B: Took me a while to get over the 'interruption'
    B: Um... also rather reluctant to stop for a while initially
    Caledonia Heron: interesting, most times for me I keep on moving, ... I do it a lot for a while or take a break when things seem jangled up or murky
    B: Ah I see
    Wol Euler smiles at herself. I do seem to have fixated on the timetable aspect :-)
    B: Ah :-)
    Caledonia Heron: I'd say it's whatever works for you... the time table is a suggestion, a place to start

    And with YS/BS? ...

    Wol Euler: I find the YS/BS exercise much easier, less intrusive.
    Caledonia Heron: yes, that one is interesting .... a nice variation
    Wol Euler: I can relax into it easily, somehow, whereas the classic Nine is a struggle.
    Caledonia Heron: sounds like that's for you then :)
    Wol Euler nods
    B: :-)
    Caledonia Heron: re ys/bs... I was flying back from work and looking out the window
    Caledonia Heron: I started placing being on the clouds outside, hopping forward with me, along side
    Wol Euler smiles
    Caledonia Heron: then being seeing the plane with the people inside looking out
    Caledonia Heron: a funny kind of daydream but not really
    B: :-)
    Caledonia Heron: with being seeing me looking out the window
    B: Ah
    Caledonia Heron: a daydream? imagination? seemed far more in depth than than that.... funny to remember so vividly
    B: Yes I can understand that Cal
    Caledonia Heron: lol, great! can you explain it to me? :)
    Wol Euler: poeple would not have hesitated to call that a vision, 500 years ago.
    Caledonia Heron: maybe so
    B: My experience was rich in visuals to begin with also. Now it's not 'sensory'.
    Wol Euler: it is as real as any other memory that you have ;-)
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, the visual part led me to think it was a daydream
    Caledonia Heron: as most other times the most prominent thing I can remember basically boils down to nothing, nothing at all
    Wol Euler is inclined to say "right on!")
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    B: Um... I do not have much RL memories as in visual Wol. And I tend not to trust them as facts that happened.
    B: :-)
    Wol Euler: I'm playing devil's advocate a little, sorry.
    Wol Euler: taking the Buddhist line that only perception exists to its conclusion.
    B: Fun to have a devil's advocate Wol. Appreciate your presence
    Caledonia Heron: bwwaaahahahaha (devilish laugh)
    B: :D
    Wol Euler: :-)

    We love wikipedia :) ...

    Caledonia Heron: that's a funny phrase, to consider the notion of devil and that devil having an advocate
    B: :-)
    Wol Euler reaches for her Wikipedia.
    Caledonia Heron: what was inquiry before the life of wikipedia? less codified speculation
    Wol Euler: "In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position, sometimes one he or she disagrees with, for the sake of argument. This process can be used to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure."
    Wol Euler: lol
    Wol Euler: it just took longer.
    B: Ah :-)
    Wol Euler: people went to libraries and thumbed pages.
    B: :D
    Wol Euler: !"Formerly, during the canonization process of the Roman Catholic Church, the Promoter of the Faith (Latin Promotor Fidei), popularly known as the Devil's Advocate (Latin advocatus diaboli), was a canon lawyer appointed by the Church to argue against the canonization of the candidate."
    Wol Euler: aaaah
    Caledonia Heron: I had a picture of the devil's attorney as an advocate .... big cave, guy with horns and trident and alongside a guy in a suit and wingtips
    B: :-)
    Wol Euler: "The British born American columnist Christopher Hitchens was famously asked to testify against the beatification of Mother Teresa in 2002, a role he would later humorously describe as being akin to "representing the Evil One, as it were, pro bono"."
    Caledonia Heron: lol, Hitchens cracks me up
    Wol Euler grins and nods
    Wol Euler chuckles belatedly at "wingtips"
    B: :-)
    Caledonia Heron: he wrote a recent book on religion that chapped a lot of people
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, I'm on the waiting list at the library for that.
    Caledonia Heron: hey, I have to go to a meeting..... I will see you guys another time hopefully
    B: Bye Cal
    Wol Euler: ah, yes, it's time.
    Wol Euler: bye cal, thanks for the talk.
    Caledonia Heron: yes, thanks to you both also... interesting as always :)
    Caledonia Heron: bye :)
    B: Thank you

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