2008.09.22 13:00 - Sort of Almost Close to Working

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    Stim was the guardian that afternoon. He sent me, Pema, the chat log below, and I choose a title.

    Wol Euler: There I am not agnostic :-)
    Wol Euler: I think we should get thte logs as correct as possible.
    Quel Karillion: just takes some effort to convert the date time representation to something that works
    Quel Karillion: Hi Stim :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: hello stim
    Object: Hello, Avatar!
    Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Quel, Wol, Adelene, Claire, Corvuscorva
    Stim Morane: You are discussing chat log issues?
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Faenik: indeed?
    Wol Euler: we are indeed
    Wol Euler: it's sort of almost close to working :-)
    Stim Morane: Well, would you like to continue with that, or are there other things of interest to discuss?
    Wol Euler would hate to impose nerdery on the group any longer.
    Stim Morane: a great word
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Quel Karillion grins.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Stim Morane: Have you PaB exercise-related stuff to report?
    Stim Morane: Or other, more freeform explorations you'd like to discuss here?
    Stim Morane: Could we do a system check? I'd like to verify that you are seeing my text chat lines?
    Wol Euler: lol, yes.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Stim Morane: OK
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Quel Karillion: Yes, I see them :)
    Wol Euler: sorry. I don't have anything PaB related.
    Stim Morane: we could take a vacation from such things, if you like
    Quel Karillion has less and less things to talk about here as time passes... interestingly.
    Quel Karillion <-- Fael's alt in case that's still unclear.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. Same here...
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was unclear.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Faenik giggles. that tickles.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Wol Euler: all right, then let's ask a few questions about the autologging :-) take us sitting here as a representative sample of a meeting.
    Stim Morane: OK
    Stim Morane: Do you have suggestions?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire basks happily in the nerderly atmosphere...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there is somthing fall like about this.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Wol Euler: (sorry, IMing about it too)
    Wol Euler: we three ahve beeen discussing when to start and stop recording.
    Quel Karillion: fall like?
    Faenik: could be
    Wol Euler: the current proposal is that it would switch into a "ready" mode just before the sessions, and actually start when a guardian arrives.
    Wol Euler: "guardian" in this sense simply means someone who is known to belong to the group, nobody needs to wear thte tag any more.
    Wol Euler: But, this means that there is no "on" switch. There is no "before the meeting" that is off the record.
    Adelene Dawner: Yes there is.
    Wol Euler: oh! sorry.
    Adelene Dawner: The switch is just flipped automatically.
    Wol Euler: what flips it?
    Adelene Dawner: the script, when the conditions of time and guardian-presence are met.
    Adelene Dawner: So if the time is before-the-meeting, it's off, regardless of who's here.
    Adelene Dawner: unless someone turns it on manually.
    Wol Euler: ok, true, the timer will exclude chat up to say 12:58. That is true.
    Wol Euler: It will also be possible to turn it off manually, in case people want to continue to talk here off-the-record.
    Wol Euler: wb claire
    Stim Morane: so are there objections to this scheme?
    Wol Euler listens.
    Claire Beltran: Um I kind of need to go...
    Adelene Dawner: not on my end. We do need to figure out if/how to record people who don't give permission tho. We have been recording them in the logs but anonimising their names - is that ok? Do we want to keep doing that?
    Claire Beltran: I'll still be on, just not here.
    Quel Karillion: Sure, see you later Claire :)
    Wol Euler: bye claire, take care.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adelene Dawner: cya claire
    Stim Morane: bye Claire
    Claire Beltran: Um, wait... I can add my two cents here.
    Wol Euler: please do
    Stim Morane: I have wondered about that too, Adelene.
    Claire Beltran: I think that pretty much everyone should be asked... because regardless of whether their names are given or not, their innermost thoughts are still recorded on a blog somewhere.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Claire Beltran: I know that might very well upset *me* if I knew about it. But that's just me.
    Adelene Dawner: everyone will be asked automatically if they're not already on a list in the base. So what happens when someone says no, but sticks around?
    Claire Beltran: Hmm... that would present a problem.
    Adelene Dawner: Can we post that log at all, if their contributions are intrgral?
    Adelene Dawner: And if so, what can we post or not post?
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Wol Euler: the guradian in charge must still be responsible for editing the log, in the end. There is also the case that people might want specific sentences removed, or names that come up in chat.
    Adelene Dawner: (also hmm, this means Faenik won't be logged any more :( )
    Wol Euler: ah!
    Wol Euler: oh noez
    Adelene Dawner: we may need to script something up for him especially ^.^
    Claire Beltran: Hmm... I like the idea of the anonymity rule. We could just tell people that's in effect and see if they'll stay or no.
    Faenik: ^^
    Quel Karillion: how about having each person's logger to also log anything any object of their's says?
    Wol Euler: THe guardian still needs to edit, though, e.g. to remove people saying "But Fred, that is..."
    Wol Euler: i.e. naming hte person in thteir replies.
    Adelene Dawner: Hard to code, Quel. And it'd almost defeat the purpose of having separate listeners
    Quel Karillion: Ah, true
    Quel Karillion: what was the point by the way?
    Claire Beltran: Gotta go now.... ^.^/
    Wol Euler: bye claire, thanks.
    Quel Karillion waves to Claire. 'Have fun.' ^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: See you Claire
    Stim Morane: Bye
    Wol Euler: what was the point of what, Quel?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Quel Karillion: uh, purpose of having separate listeners
    Wol Euler: oh, right.
    Wol Euler: short answer: it reduces the memory requirement drastically.
    Wol Euler: managing the list of guardians and who spoke when was taking up nearly all the 16k available.
    Wol Euler: This way it's broken into manageable pieces.
    Quel Karillion: wouldn't that work by having one script doing the listening and sending the lines to the other with link messages?
    Quel Karillion: and the other one handling sending it?
    Wol Euler: nope, I tried it that way before :-)
    Adelene Dawner: I think we decided that wouldn't scale well with a set number of sending scripts.
    Wol Euler: meomryoverflowed after 48 hours at the most.
    Adelene Dawner: So we have a variable number of sending scripts now.
    Quel Karillion: the scripts leak?
    Faenik: why not?
    Wol Euler: look at the chat log "Tech talk" from the 20th, we talked about it there.
    Wol Euler: LSL leaks, ther is no garbage collection in running scripts. The master script will run frever (ideally)
    Wol Euler: *forever
    Wol Euler: so itt simply runs out after X hours.
    Wol Euler: It may be that this system does too, we don'T know yet.
    Adelene Dawner: I think in this case, if nothing else, X will be very long.
    Quel Karillion: so... if there was another script setting the work scripts running/not running every once in a while?
    Wol Euler: yes, we hope so.
    Adelene Dawner: That's what the base does, Quel.
    Adelene Dawner: By rezzing the listeners.
    Quel Karillion wonders if it's necessary to rez things to do that.
    Adelene Dawner: Pretty much, yeah.
    Wol Euler: the base itself does very little, hopefully it won't overflow, or only on a very long cycle.
    Adelene Dawner: Actually I think that adding the new-guardian or new-permission lists will reset the base, so it'll get 'cleaned up' naturally pretty often.
    Wol Euler: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...00_-_Tech_Talk
    Wol Euler: I believe that llResetScript does clear all memory and start fresh.
    Quel Karillion: Yes, it does
    Adelene Dawner: I don't see why it wouldn't.
    Wol Euler shrugs. Because life is a bitch?
    Adelene Dawner: hehehehe
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Faenik: why not?
    Adelene Dawner: Did we reach a conclusion on no-permission conversers? That's kind of important.
    Wol Euler: very.
    Faenik: why not?
    Quel Karillion would suggest offering to change their name from the public logs if they want to be anonymous but make it clear the text will be included.
    Adelene Dawner: If we're doing the anonymous thing, would it be possible to send the name to the data-collection program on the webserver and have that remove the name - first or last - from all conversation? Replace it with 'Joe Being', maybe?
    Wol Euler: lol
    Wol Euler: actually,, the master could tell the listener to do that!
    Adelene Dawner: listener*S*?
    Quel Karillion: but it needs to be possible retroactively.
    Wol Euler: no, not all. THe Guardian does still need to edit by hand!
    Adelene Dawner: true, Quel. It seems to make sens that that kind of editing would be done when the log is being put back into order, server-side.
    Adelene Dawner: Here's a question...
    Adelene Dawner: the server takes all this data... then what? I thought it was going to be automatically posted on the wiki, and if it is, nothing the GoC can do will take the names out of the history.
    Adelene Dawner: (Adam's RL first name is in the history of one of the recent logs, actually, even though it was removed from the 'current' version... I can't imagine she'll be happy to find that out...)
    Wol Euler: Quel, I believe admins can delete pages permanently from the wiki history?
    Quel Karillion: Yes, any guardian can delete a page and then recreate with a fresh history I think.
    Quel Karillion: admins can restore deleted pages.
    Wol Euler: right, but can they delete from the HISTORY? that's the point.
    Wol Euler: some wikis allow that.
    Quel Karillion: the history goes with the page.
    Wol Euler points to her question.
    Adelene Dawner: Okay... *can* we anonimize the name automatically, or will that be necessary?
    Quel Karillion: it's still there if an admin restores it
    Faenik: indeed?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the page, without the history?
    Wol Euler: yes
    Quel Karillion: the history is still there if an admin restores it
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: restores the page?
    Quel Karillion: but if you do a copy&paste from how the page is, then delete and recreate. Tat wipes the history
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oooo
    Quel Karillion: admins can still see it but no-one else can
    Wol Euler: ok, so there is a workaround. It is possible to remove the names from the public record by zapping the page and recreating.
    Adelene Dawner: That seems like a lot of work. So my question stands - can we automate the anonymity?
    Wol Euler nods. I think that would be worth attempting, yes.
    Adelene Dawner: Good. At what point in the system should that occur?
    Wol Euler: I'd say right away, inside thte Listener.
    Wol Euler: As soon as the person refuses permission, the Master will tell the specific Llistener to anonymize the name.
    Adelene Dawner: ok, and what about whne other people say the person's name?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: can it go back to the beginning of the conversation?
    Quel Karillion: if it's not been sent yet, yes
    Faenik: why not?
    Wol Euler: good question, Corvi, some text may already hve gone to the server.
    Adelene Dawner: Corvus, it won't start recording a person at all 'till they've answered that question one way or the other.
    Adelene Dawner huffs at Wol.
    Wol Euler: right, so the rezzed Listener remains in an Off state until the Master acctivates it, and in doin so ssays "real name" or "anonymize"
    Wol Euler: sorry :-)
    Adelene Dawner: nono
    Wol Euler: ok, sorry, Adelene, I was lagging behind you.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Stim Morane: I need to go. Thank you all for contributing your skills and time on this and other PaB-related tasks! It's much appreciated!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Quel Karillion: See you later Stim :)
    Wol Euler: bye stim, take care.
    Stim Morane: Bye!
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