2008.09.25 19:00 - Break out into the clear air!

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    Pia Iger as guardian and prepared the log.

    Friends came in.

    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Steve and Pia :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Adams
    Pia Iger: Hello, Adams and Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: my friend from down under should be arriving shortly
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Chantelle
    Chantelle Loire: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome
    Chantelle Loire: ty
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Chantelle
    Chantelle Loire: hi
    stevenaia Michinaga: have a seat, I forget to tell you, we record our conversations here
    Chantelle Loire: ok
    stevenaia Michinaga: is that ok
    Chantelle Loire: sure
    Chantelle Loire: rezzing
    stevenaia Michinaga: this is Pia, she is tonight guardian, there's always one here
    Chantelle Loire: hi
    Pia Iger: Hi, Chantelle, welcome
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Hints
    stevenaia Michinaga: this is another helpful page from the site
    Chantelle Loire: ty
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Adelene :)
    Adelene Dawner: Hi all :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was trying to explain this group to chantelle
    Chantelle Loire: hi adelene..
    Adelene Dawner: Good luck ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: haha
    Pia Iger: (brb)
    PaB Listener Master: I've been touched by a PaB guardian.
    stevenaia Michinaga: is the autorecorder up and running?
    Adelene Dawner: not yet

    I brought up my impression from reading one entry in Adams' blog: #9 at the start of


    Pia Iger: ok. I am back. Adams, I did read your blog today!
    Adams Dubrovna: I've had a bit of a week :)
    Adams Dubrovna: all over the place
    Pia Iger: the one of APAPB, your memories
    Pia Iger: I notice the memories are cozy, good feeling ones!
    Pia Iger: did you notice that, Adams, what you wrote?
    Adams Dubrovna: that they were all good?
    Adams Dubrovna: I was playing around with seeing Being from different vantage points of my life
    Adams Dubrovna: Playing with the time issue too
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Albertus :)
    Pia Iger: Hi, Albertus.
    Albertus Urvilan: Hi there all
    Pia Iger: Albertus, you been here before?
    Albertus Urvilan: Yes, I'm passing familiar
    Adams Dubrovna: I am curious about what you are saying Pia
    Albertus Urvilan: thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: I told you Chantelle, smart people
    Chantelle Loire: :)
    Pia Iger: I am talking about my thoughts after reading Adams' blog.
    Pia Iger: the thing very obvious to me, is that she wrote a long paragraph of her memories,
    Pia Iger: all of them are cozy, nice feeling ones, the childhood memories, the family outing,,,
    Pia Iger: she may not notice that she made such selection.
    Pia Iger: right, Adams?
    Adams Dubrovna: No but it was an appreciation of the presence of Being
    Adams Dubrovna: But now that you mention it, it was at the end of a long trying day

    I continued to probe since personally I felt not as easy to appreciate things not associated with good feelings.

    Pia Iger: seems appreciation often connect to happy, good things?
    stevenaia Michinaga: it does make more sense when you use it in a sentence like that for some reason, Adams
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, and it wouldn't have to be, Pia, you are right
    Pia Iger: I wonder how to appreciate things that are not appealing?
    Adams Dubrovna wonders if he should write another from the other angle
    Adelene Dawner: Hm, Pia
    Adams Dubrovna: I did have a dead groundhog :)

    Yes, I remember the dead groundhog, which seems to add more innocent flavor to the childhood memory.
    Adelene had a quite ripe answer to my question.

    Adelene Dawner: I'm good at doing that, but I don't know how I do it. It just happens.
    Pia Iger: (Albertus, Chantelle, feel free to jump in:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t any experience you learn from something to be appreciated even the bad things
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Chantelle Loire: thats what i was about to say too steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: maybe especially the bad things
    Adelene Dawner: Perhaps it has something to do with my past - my childhood was not great and my teenage years were frankly hell. So now, even on a bad day, I can revel in the fact that I'm free, I've chosen this path with all its bumps, and tomorrow *will* be better.
    Chantelle Loire: however, you determine you want to learn from them so they will not be repeated, because in fact you don't appreciate them enough to want them there
    Adelene Dawner: The rough spots of this path are nothing compared to some paths I could be on, and I appreciate them as part of a larger thing.
    Adams Dubrovna nods to Adelene
    Pia Iger: wow, Adelene,
    Pia Iger: nicely said.
    Adelene Dawner: :)
     Dawner goes searching for a quote...

    Steve's friend Chantelle had to go.

    Chantelle Loire: i must go.. rl calls
    Chantelle Loire: nice to meet you all
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Chantelle, nice to meet you
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for coming, feel free to return
    Pia Iger: come back next time, Chantelle
    Chantelle Loire: :)
    Chantelle Loire: bye
    Albertus Urvilan: bye
    stevenaia Michinaga: even on Oz time
    Chantelle Loire: ty for the invitation steve
    Chantelle Loire: hugs

    Adelene found the quote:

    Adelene Dawner: "Just realise you are dreaming a dream you call the world and stop looking for ways out. The dream is not your problem. Your problem is that you like one part of your dream and not another. Love all or none of it, and stop complaining. When you have seen the dream as a dream, you have done all that needs to be done".
    Adelene Dawner: Specifically the "Love all of it or none of it" part

    Adams introduced two new practice of appreciation, while Claire entered.

    Adams Dubrovna: I have added two meditations to the start of my morning
    Adams Dubrovna: One is the think good thoughts meditation and the other is a gratefulness one in which I try to list all the things I am grateful for rather than things to complain about
    Adams Dubrovna: It probably colors my blog

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Claire
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Claire
    Claire Beltran: hello
    Pia Iger: Hi, Claire
    Adams Dubrovna: I have been a complainer much of my life :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: does it help?
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Pia Iger may start a grateful list too.
    Adams Dubrovna: It has been amazing how long the grateful list becomes in relation to the other
    Pia Iger: what is "the other'?
    Adams Dubrovna: the list of things to complain about :)

    The grateful list can reveal how much we are already blessed! The fact often is obscured by our daily worries.
    I also mentioned physical factors involved:

    Pia Iger: I notice that my body feelings play an important reason why it is hard to accept/appreciate difficult situations
    Pia Iger: my guts wrenched, the headache, the dizziness.
    Pia Iger: the body discomfort make hard to appreciate it
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Pia Iger: in adversity, there is not only mental pain, there is physical pain that our body remember, and don't want to revisit the hardship
    Adams Dubrovna: Our minds remember the good more than the bad
    Adams Dubrovna: Do you find the meditation helps, Pia?
    Pia Iger: It helps to alleviate. But there is instant aversion to the hardship, not easy to appreciate.

    Claire feels her experience is quite diffrent. She is involuntarily more attracted to negative memories.

    Claire Beltran: I don't know if that's true, Adams...
    Adams Dubrovna: Which, Claire?
    Claire Beltran: That the mind remembers the good more than the bad. Maybe it's just my mind, but it feels sometimes as if my mentality is extremely destructive.
    Pia Iger: the memory our mind has is selective, can go one way or the other.
    Adams Dubrovna: Dont get me wrong, I can get in a bad state focusing on the negative
    Claire Beltran: At times, it feels like I force myself to recall unpleasant memories or deliberately expose myself to violent or traumatic imagery...
    Adelene Dawner: Any idea why, Claire?
    Albertus Urvilan: Negative thoughts are compulsive patterns that are hard to see as unreal and shake off. They can feed on, and nourish, very powerful body-feeling states
    Pia Iger: nods
    Albertus Urvilan: Drug-like addiction
    Adelene Dawner: Negative imagery and negative thoughts don't have to go hand in hand tho.
    Claire Beltran: I don't know... I feel as if I have to. Like if I see a torture sequence in a film or something... I mentally force myself to go through it as if I were experiencing it. And I don't even enjoy that...
    Adelene Dawner: We ran into that yesterday, Claire and I.
    Claire Beltran: I feel that I *have* to, like I'm preparing myself for some horrible fate.
    Adams Dubrovna avoids movies and shows with violence
    Adelene Dawner nods at Claire.
    Adams Dubrovna: I have done that Claire
    Adelene Dawner: That sounds fear-related, and I've done it too.
    Pia Iger: I heard it will work better if you try to face the fear, not run away,
    Adelene Dawner: We've talked about anger being about change... actually, I'm not sure if I've talked about that here or not; Three and I have, anyway. Fear is about being prepared, in the same way that anger is about changing something.
    Albertus Urvilan: I recall something that Jack Korfield said about that. Rather jokingly: "maybe there's skillful negative thought?... Do you say to yourself , ... it's planning?"
    Adelene Dawner: Exactly, Albertus. They're the same thing, the only difference is our reaction to that planning.

    Claire Beltran: Planning for the possibility of being cut in half with a buzz saw? *wince* ... I've done that.
    Adelene Dawner has prepared for the possibility of being put into a mental institution... *bad* loop to get into.

    There seems difference. Adelene's fear is from her real life situation. Claire is more reacting to stimulation from entertainment. Although they both feel in a very strong way.

    Albertus Urvilan: As I understand you, Claire, you are getting a buzz from this ... sorry, bad pun.
    Claire Beltran: That's the thing... I mentally prepare for stuff that I know I could *never* recover from.
    Adelene Dawner: Exactly, Claire.
    Albertus Urvilan: Like giving yourself an adrenaline buzz
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think it's just that, Albertus. There are pleasanter ways of doing that, if that's all it's for.
    Adams Dubrovna: It seems to me that movies often manipulate our sense of fear
    Pia Iger thinks most popular culture do.
    Albertus Urvilan: I'm just imagining, Claire, for myself, that if I were cultivating dread thoughts, I would want to **justify** that as being skillful or helpful in some way, rather than being **sadistic**
    Adams Dubrovna: How many people are cut in half with buzz saws. Why should we be concerning ourselves with that? Why is someone putting that in our heads?
    Albertus Urvilan: to the part of myself that needs to be care for.
    Adelene Dawner: At the same time, ignoring or judging an emotion like that is not good.
    Adams Dubrovna: I think in an odd way we said much the same thing Albertus
    Adams Dubrovna: Alas I must go. Goodnight everyone :)
    Pia Iger: seems there is strong pull, or irresistible attraction of some people to the dreadful images.
    Pia Iger: bye, Adams.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes Pia
    stevenaia Michinaga: night adams
    Albertus Urvilan: Bye Adams ... yes I believe we were on the same wavelength ;)

    Albertus pointed out that practice can be a tool to break the ties of  negative and fearful thoughts.

    Albertus Urvilan: Well, we all love to go into the haunted house from time to time.
    Albertus Urvilan: It's just difficult if we are compelled to go there, as if the most fragile part of us needs, in some way, to stay on bondage.
    Albertus Urvilan: Break out into the clear air!
    stevenaia Michinaga: afk
    Claire Beltran: But how?
    Albertus Urvilan: That's where *PRACTICE* comes in.
    Albertus Urvilan: Break the ties of these fascinating thought-streams.
    Adelene Dawner: Interesting as this discussion has been I need to jet. See you folks next time.
    Pia Iger: can you give an example of breaking a tie?
    Albertus Urvilan: You could for instance use practice-verses, like in Thich Nhat Hanh's way of Buddhism.
    Albertus Urvilan: Called "gathas", they strengthen your awareness by being used in various situations.
    Albertus Urvilan: I'm paraphrasing here but for instance when you get in the car, before starting off, and thinking about **WHATEVER**, you take time to recite a verse.
    Albertus Urvilan: Nah, tried to paraphrase it a couple times here but couldn't get it "right" enough.
    Albertus Urvilan: Will have to look it up.
    Albertus Urvilan: Thinking dread thoughts, I vow with all beings to step into the light, and give to myself the gentleness I would give to others
    Albertus Urvilan: That's one I just made up, and the point is you could take a verse for your own, and let it direct your mind and thought skillfully.
    Pia Iger: I think I understand. by reciting a verse, we sort of break the automatic mind process. It is very much like what we do here the 9-sec stop.
    Claire Beltran nods thoughtfully.
    Adelene Dawner is Online
    Albertus Urvilan: Yes, but where you are stopping and noticing in 9-sec, this Way is a little more specific
    Albertus Urvilan: to your situation.
    Albertus Urvilan: And directive in a sweet way.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I apologise, I was distracted
    Pia Iger: a stop, will bring more awareness. Awareness will help us to be stronger.
    Pia Iger: somehow it will reduce the attraction of horror, Claire. I think.

    What Albertus said is very helpful. We are not totally at mercy of our thought streams.

    At this time, a new born AV walked in but she did not know how to sit, even everyone tried to give tips. And I did not asked for permission to include her name here. So I remove her part.

    Albertus Urvilan: Before starting the car
    I know where I am going.
    The car and I are one,
    if the car goes fast, I go fast.
    Albertus Urvilan: That's the one I was talking about.
    Albertus Urvilan: Here is a link to a site that can tell you more about this way of practicing: http://www.plumvillage.org/HTML/practice/html/gathas.htm
    Pia Iger: thanks, Albertus.
    Albertus Urvilan: And of course a very good practice is **DANCING***!

    True. Another example of how our physical being can strongly influence our mind.

    Pia Iger: in what way, Albertus?
    Albertus Urvilan: Positive endorphin flow through **GROOVE**
    Pia Iger: sorry, it is getting late for me.
    Albertus Urvilan: Bye all! See you again. I'm off **Dancing * now!!
    Pia Iger: bye, Albertus.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go as well,
    stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
    Pia Iger: bye, Steve
    Claire Beltran: Goodbye, Steve!

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