2008.09.30 01:00 - Detox

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    That night, at 1 am, I, Pema, spent some time by myself in the pavilion, until Quel appeared.

    Quel Karillion: Hello Pema.
    Pema Pera: Hi Quel, how are you?
    Quel Karillion: I'm good, you?
    Pema Pera: I'm fine!
    Pema Pera: I'm still in Japan for a few days, so it is 5 pm here, locally
    Pema Pera: I've seen that you've come to our Play as Being group a few times, from the chat logs, but haven't met you before, I believe
    Pema Pera: nice to meet in person, or at least "in avatar: :-)
    Quel Karillion: nope, first meeting with this avatar :)
    Pema Pera: AH!
    Pema Pera pins are dropping
    Pema Pera: metta!
    Pema Pera: as your friend would say
    Quel Karillion: Yes :)
    Pema Pera: :-)

    It all fell into place . . . .

    Quel Karillion: it'll be a long flight :)
    Pema Pera: back to the US you mean?
    Quel Karillion: To US anyhow ;)
    Pema Pera: yes, from any direction :-)
    Pema Pera: So, given that you're still relatively new to PaB :-), what are your impressions so far? =^+^=
    Quel Karillion: It's an interesting group :)
    Pema Pera: perhaps you read on the wiki, three sessions earlier, how I was playing the devil's advocate with respect to PaB
    Quel Karillion: Yes, I just read that posting before logging in.
    Pema Pera: what do you think about all that?
    Quel Karillion comes up blank somehow.
    Quel Karillion: It's an interesting approach to ponder but ... somehow can't say much about it.

    At this point in the conversation, after a brief silence, a piece of AI took up the slack.

    PaB Listener Master: I've been touched by someone I don't recognize.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Quel Karillion: perhaps try touching the recorder?
    Quel Karillion: that red cone
    Pema Pera: words are tricky . . . .
    Pema Pera: I see a black cone . . .
    Pema Pera: in the middle of the table?
    Quel Karillion: small red cone with 10896 above it
    Pema Pera: or the small red one?
    Pema Pera: aha
    PaB Listener Master: I've been touched by a PaB guardian.
    Pema Pera: Ah, it asks me what it should do
    Pema Pera: start/cancel/ignore
    Pema Pera: Wol's Listener Master
    Pema Pera: great!
    Pema Pera: Reminds me of "His Master's Voice"
    Quel Karillion grins.
    Pema Pera: (old record company with picture of dog recognizing voice of master on record player)
    Quel Karillion: Ah, fun idea :)
    Quel Karillion: (you could try choosing the start, perhaps, even though it's late)
    PaB Listener Master: I've been touched by a PaB guardian.
    PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!
    Pema Pera: okay, I started it.
    Pema Pera: Should it have recognized me as a guardian?
    Quel Karillion: I can give you the URL
    Quel Karillion: yes
    Pema Pera: I wear the tag "cultivator" rather than Pab guardian
    Pema Pera: is that the problem?
    Quel Karillion: it's the same group
    Pema Pera: I created that since I like the word "cultivator" -- that was before there were "guardians" -- we had the group for the PaB land management, and "cultivator" had a nice double meaning, cultivating the land and PaB
    Pema Pera: so that's okay to wear -- but why did it then not recognize me, you think?

    More tech talk.

    Quel Karillion: but it did?
    Quel Karillion: it didn't rez the listeners though ... oh well, Wol's got more work to do :)
    Pema Pera: I am glad that he and you are putting so much time in it, thank you very much!
    Pema Pera: I saw the chat of last week with Adelene -- is she working with you and Wol too?
    Quel Karillion: Yes, I'm not sure exactly how Wol and Adelene are dividing the work but they're both working on the LSL part
    Pema Pera: great! So is it the three of you then, or are others involved?
    Quel Karillion: which seems to be the more complex part of the system... at least as far as recording is concerned
    Pema Pera: so the three of you are currently the whole task force?
    Quel Karillion: Yes, looks like no-one else is doing things.
    Quel Karillion: at least I haven't heard of anyone else :)
    Pema Pera: For joint code writing, three may be almost the maximum to work well . . .
    Quel Karillion: perhaps, yes
    Pema Pera: unless you are skilled in breaking up things into modular parts
    Pema Pera: but hard to do that in an exploration phase
    Quel Karillion: although, it's one codebase for me and Wol and Adelene are working on another
    Quel Karillion: modularized by force :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Quel Karillion: my part is PHP ... although that is not my first pick if I could choose freely.
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pema Pera: you just happen to know more about it that the others?
    Quel Karillion: Wol doesn't know it she says and I haven't asked Adelene.
    Pema Pera: When it's working, I hope that Wol will get a kind of lecture or presentation about it
    Pema Pera: the Kira Cafe would be a perfect place to do so
    Pema Pera: I for one would love to learn about the logic
    Quel Karillion: Hi Umbriel :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Umbriel!
    Quel Karillion: not much logic in my part so far :)
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Pema Pera: metta.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Pema Pera: :)

    Umbriel joined us, which reminded me of our earlier session, almost a day ago.

    Pema Pera: Ah, I just got another idea, related to the session at 7 am yesterday, 3 sessions ago
    Pema Pera: where you were present too, Umbriel
    Pema Pera: and me playing the devils advocate
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Umbriel Levenque: yes I was. continuing I suppose?
    Pema Pera: (I just put it up on the wiki, under http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2008/09/2008.09.29_07%3a00_-_What_is_this_Being%3f
    Umbriel Levenque: reading
    Pema Pera: not yet, but we could now
    Pema Pera: or we could talk about it, many options!
    Umbriel Levenque: :-) yes many options
    Umbriel Levenque: please continue what you two were discussing before I joined in (reading the log atm)
    Pema Pera: I just got this idea that perhaps the most important question would not be "what have you learned about Being" or even "about yourself" as such but rather something like - how has your belief in normal reality changed?
    Pema Pera: (we were doing tech talk)
    Pema Pera: So instead of taking "Being" or whatever type of practice as a "belief" take the way we ordinarily look at the world as a "belief"
    Umbriel Levenque: yes it's a good question Pema
    Pema Pera: and ask whether our "belief" in that strange sect called "ordinary reality believers" has changed
    Pema Pera: Perhaps PaB is a kind of detox operation
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Quel Karillion: detox :)
    Umbriel Levenque: yes...
    Pema Pera: you know, there are groups dedicated to get people OUT of sects
    Umbriel Levenque: an emergency by-pass, a friend called it also
    Pema Pera: rescuing them from the tentacles of greedy sect members
    Pema Pera: ah, yes nice
    Pema Pera: so if we start from what IS, then the ordinary mind set is a rather dangerous, pernicious kind of sect attitude
    Pema Pera: so can PaB help us to escape?
    Quel Karillion: well, you could kind of think the ordinary mind as a sect that encompasses almost all humans.
    Pema Pera: sure, but quantity does not guarantee anything about quality
    Pema Pera: they can all be equally mistaken . . . .
    Quel Karillion: oh, that's not what I'm pointing at :)
    Umbriel Levenque: wonder 'escape' is quite a thing I'm looking for...
    Pema Pera: you mean it's contagious :-)
    Pema Pera: <= Fael
    Quel Karillion: well, that too but ...
    Pema Pera: not escape from where we are, but from where we are asked to think we are, if you see what I mean, Umbriel
    Quel Karillion: I was mostly trying to point out that it's a sect but so widespread it's not recognised as one.
    Pema Pera: escape from ordinary ideas
    Pema Pera: ah, yes, sure, Quel, certainly!
    Quel Karillion: too big :)
    Quel Karillion: even incohesive :)
    Pema Pera: So we can play Being's advocate, as Devil's advocate against almost anyone's "sane" mindset
    Quel Karillion: kind of an antisect in some ways

    Interesting, PaB as an antisect . . .

    Umbriel Levenque wants to be aware of 'all' ideas, including ordinary ones
    Pema Pera: oh sure, aware of ideas is important, being carried away by them as having the only truth is what makes a sect so dangerous
    Umbriel Levenque: yes
    Quel Karillion: but that only truth part is quite common, yes.
    Umbriel Levenque: only truth but many paths
    Pema Pera associating . . . antisect . . . insect . . insecticides . . . antisecticide . . . PaB?

    I later realized that I should have written "secticide", not antisecticide, oh well.

    Quel Karillion: now that I think of it, that's still what tends to put me off from christianity as an organisation.
    Umbriel Levenque: :D
    Pema Pera: yes, a sect can be characterized as claiming that they have the only path to the truth
    Pema Pera: instead of a path to the only truth -- which would be much healthier and realistic
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Umbriel Levenque: yes
    Quel Karillion: Yes... Buddhism is quite nice in that respect :)
    Pema Pera: so in that sense, the way many scientists look at science is making science into a sect!
    Pema Pera: scientism
    Quel Karillion: yes...
    Quel Karillion has seen people saying science as a whole is a religion.
    Umbriel Levenque: perhaps years and years later, science as now could be looked at as a religion... who can tell
    Pema Pera: you know, it would be really interesting, as a little PaB project, to look up on the internet a few good examples of antisecticides, detox operations, and see whether their approach mirrors that of PaB to some extent . . . .
    Quel Karillion: perhaps :)
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Pema Pera: btw, I should go over to the Kira campus. Would you be interested to have a look?
    Pema Pera: I have to check something there.
    Umbriel Levenque: sure
    Quel Karillion will have to go in about 15 minutes but until then...
    Pema Pera: let me go over and tp you both
    Umbriel Levenque: (need to go out in 10 but will come)

    I teleported over to the Kira Cafe.

    Pema Pera: Here is the bar area, for the language evenings . . . .
    Pema Pera: in one corner, but you see the whole place is BIG
    Pema Pera: we can have meetings with 100 avatars, if the sim allows
    Umbriel Levenque: nice interior
    Pema Pera: all Storm's work
    Quel Karillion: Yes, looks nice :)
    Faenik: why not?
    Pema Pera: so you see the bar is quite far from the center, so the people speaking Dutch, Finnish, whatever, would bother or be bother by the Anglofiles :-)
    Umbriel Levenque: clearly european :-)
    Umbriel Levenque: fountain... possibly not so

    I went up the stairs to the second floor, a kind of open gallery, and Umbriel and Quel followed me.

    Pema Pera: so if someone gives a lecture, in front of the fire place,
    Quel Karillion: looks a bit unfinished here still :)
    Pema Pera: avatars can stay within 20 meters on both floors to listen
    Pema Pera: hehe, sure
    Pema Pera: work in progress
    Umbriel Levenque: good idea that
    Quel Karillion: Yes, the idea could perhaps use even more floor. 100 people might get crowded on just 2 ;)
    Pema Pera: well, 70 is probably a limit for a sim to carry comfortable . . . .
    Quel Karillion: Yes, likely
    Quel Karillion: until the performance gets better.
    Quel Karillion: hopefully Mono will help with that
    Pema Pera: we'll see. We do intend for the Kira Cafe to become a kind of Science Hub for Second Life
    Pema Pera: yes
    Quel Karillion: it's already in the server
    Pema Pera: with talks about what happens science-wise in SL
    Pema Pera: so much broader than PaB
    Pema Pera: but open to "other ways of knowing" as we call it
    Pema Pera: PaB is like wodka, this more like beer
    Quel Karillion grins.
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Pema Pera: both respectful to the openness of science and the human context thereof
    Pema Pera: PaB starting from the Being end
    Pema Pera: Kira Cafe starting from the science end
    Umbriel Levenque: nice
    Quel Karillion: :)

    The conversation turned back to the Kira Language Bar.

    Quel Karillion wonders if that native language conversation takes off much.
    Pema Pera: we'll have to see
    Pema Pera: I at least would be happy to speak my own language occasionally, for a change
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Pema Pera: and doing so with just one other person present could be at least as interesting as with ten or twenty
    Quel Karillion: yes, depends on the person really :)
    Pema Pera: so no program, no recording, no plans or goals
    Umbriel Levenque: would be interesting to listen in for me
    Pema Pera: like a Cafe really!
    Pema Pera: sure, anyone is welcome
    Umbriel Levenque: yes
    Pema Pera: could act as language lessons
    Quel Karillion: sort of, yes :)
    Pema Pera: like, tomorrow I'm going to give a talk about Kira in a Tokyo Bar, in Japanese
    Umbriel Levenque: nice
    Pema Pera: ah, Quel, something tells me you might be able to read the announcement, hehehe
    Pema Pera: just a sec
    Quel Karillion smiles.
    Pema Pera: http://snbar.ameblo.jp
    Pema Pera: Kira 研究所について
    Pema Pera: halfway down the page
    Umbriel Levenque: gotta run. thanks for bringing me over Pema
    Quel Karillion: See you later Umbriel :)
    Umbriel Levenque: good night
    Pema Pera: c u Umbriel!
    Umbriel Levenque: see you later Quel

    Umbriel departed, and we turned from languages to time zones.

    Pema Pera: so I am the ゲスト tomorrow :)
    Pema Pera: so I expect that we get a well populated Japanese evening in the Kira Cafe, starting next week!
    Pema Pera: if I'm doing an even half-way decent job advertising
    Quel Karillion: sounds likely, yes :)
    Pema Pera: let's check the times. I am shooting for 8 pm local time
    Pema Pera: so that is 7 am EDT
    Pema Pera: must be 3 pm for you, right?
    Pema Pera: or 2 pm?
    Pema Pera: 1 pm in Amsterdam and Paris, say
    Quel Karillion: 3pm sounds good
    Pema Pera: 4 am SLT
    Quel Karillion: yep.
    Pema Pera: you are on Moscow time?
    Quel Karillion: oh, about Saturday log, I'll put something on the wiki but ... can't really put any log about it. Mostly voice between me and Gaya at first and then something we were asked to leave out.
    Quel Karillion: not sure about moscow time :)
    Pema Pera: Moscow is two hours away from Paris, so must be the same as you, right?
    Quel Karillion: but at the moment 8pm in japan is 3pm in Finland ...
    Pema Pera: As for Saturday, well you can just make a short story about it, whatever could fit
    Quel Karillion: not sure if DST makes a difference
    Quel Karillion: I'll also be putting up Sunday 1AM
    Quel Karillion: well, a lot of that log is available from the autologging system too :)
    Quel Karillion: although, better leave the url out
    Quel Karillion: those are unedited

    Back to tech talk.

    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pema Pera: okay, I'll edit it out
    Pema Pera: but it is dangerous to have it there if search engines find it
    Pema Pera: then effectively it will be published . . . .
    Quel Karillion: they should only find it if it's linked from other pages.
    Pema Pera: but how do you make sure that nobody links to that page?
    Pema Pera: It takes only one person somewhere . . . who then forgets . . . but search robots won't forget
    Quel Karillion: difficult, yes.
    Quel Karillion: lets see, I could setup robots.txt
    Pema Pera: not a viable long-term solution perhaps? Hard to say what is best
    Quel Karillion: necessary for testing.
    Pema Pera: hey, here is an idea!!!
    Quel Karillion: for the moment, this thing is running from a server that my work is paying for though.
    Pema Pera: How about have the autologging system replacing each avatar name by a number and keeping a data base with the keys, like a kind of hash table
    Pema Pera: then publishing the raw stuff would be okay, right?
    Pema Pera: as long as you don't publish the hash table
    Quel Karillion: it already keeps the keys and uses them to identify people
    Pema Pera: which will be used for getting it on the wiki
    Quel Karillion: doesn't look at the name for that
    Pema Pera: Ah, I see.
    Quel Karillion: but does save the name
    Quel Karillion: at the moment uses that for the view.php
    Quel Karillion: and also has database integer ID column for eah
    Quel Karillion: each
    Quel Karillion: so completely unrelated number for each person is available as well
    Pema Pera: great!
    Quel Karillion: ok, try looking at it again now
    Quel Karillion: of course, when people talk about others, that's visible
    Pema Pera: yes, but that is almost always a first name, not the whole name, which doesn't really identify the person generally
    Pema Pera: well, unless you have a first name like Corvuscorva
    Pema Pera: but even that becomes Corvi :)
    Pema Pera: so okay :-)
    Quel Karillion: ok, I also added robots.txt that disallows spidering at all.
    Quel Karillion: so at least major search engines won't index it now even if people link to it
    Pema Pera: great!
    Pema Pera: well, I should get going here, checking something out
    Pema Pera: good seeing you (sort-of again :-)
    Quel Karillion: ah, yes, I'm a bit later from my plan too :P
    Quel Karillion: See you later :)
    Pema Pera: :)

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    Viewing 1 of 1 comments: view all
    Originally written on 09:16, 30 Sep 2008
    Nice catch on the "robots.txt", Fael! I had missed that.
    Posted 04:05, 9 Apr 2010
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