2008.10.06 07:00 - Maybe, if you have to think about it, you're doing it wrong?

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    Adelene covered this meeting for Pema, which turned out to be very fortuitous for her. The comments are hers. ^.^ 


    The first 10 minutes or so were quiet, giving me an opportunity to do a little of the reading that's been piling up. 

    Adelene Dawner: Hi Corvi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Adelene....
    Adelene Dawner: 'sup?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins. "not much with me. You?"
    Adelene Dawner: not much. Poking at the wikipedia articles about anarchism, and pondering life.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: pondering life?
    Adelene Dawner: in a general-personal way, yes.
    Adelene Dawner: I'm still mulling over this 'intentional living' idea.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It is an intriguing puzzle.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: And of course me being me, the normal route to exploring it doesn't work. ;P
    Corvuscorva Nightfire shrugs...probably doesn't work for very many at all.
    Adelene Dawner: heh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: What are your latest musings on the subject?
    Adelene Dawner: Going at the project 'backwards' seems to work. Not 'I'm going to live an intentional life' and then fill in the gaps, but keep exploring different philosophies, and see what kind of life arises from the ones that resonate with me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins..."I think that might be my own approach to most questions"
    Adelene Dawner: And for the most part that's not even full philosophies, but bits and pieces of different ones, for me. Which doesn't make life easy to explain to others...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sometimes...I get focused on an idea..one resonates...and everything around me seems to speak to it.
    Adelene Dawner: yup, I know how that goes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so..the bits and pieces makes perfect sens.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: And, interestingly, a cohesive 'thing' does seem to be forming.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and one of the things you are incredibly good at is synthesizing those pieces and communicating them.
    Adelene Dawner: yup. :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Adelene Dawner: (And I figure I'm doing it right, with that 'thing', partly because my mother would have *kittens* if she knew about it. ^.^)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles, snorts then guffaws.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: rl..I'm dying laughing at that comment.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ Negative role models can still be useful.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods!!!!
    Adelene Dawner: It's interesting how things build on other things, though.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire notes that "thing" is an interesting and useful staple in this particular conversation.
    Adelene Dawner: Well, I don't have a better name for it. 'Personal philosophy' maybe?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok..lets use Persphil as our substitute for "thing"...could be great jargon...hahahah
    Adelene Dawner: heh
    Adelene Dawner: Anyway, mine has unsurprisingly grown from the major conflict of my childhood: mistreatment of people seen as disabled.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: Which segues quickly into 'minority issues' which leads to the concept of majority privilege and if you look at *that*, the only thing that's really a privilege, instead of something that everyone should be able to do, is the ability to ignore other's suffering. It's only a quick jump from that to, say, my current interest in 80s hip-hop music.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, "the protest stuff?"
    Adelene Dawner: Not so much protests as accounts of the oppressions of the day.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that is a much better way of putting it.
    Adelene Dawner: And most of that kind of oppression depends on hierarchal thinking, hence the interest in anarchism.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins, nods..I see!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think...suddenly...that this is part of what 3D was saying about values.
    Adelene Dawner: ?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in doing this thinking...synthesizing...you are creating values.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which your actions will align to.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which results in results.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: if your values aren't "home and hearth" then...they are something else.
    Adelene Dawner: Yes... I'm not sure that 'passionate' is a correct word here, though it might be, but this is one of the few themes that I just keep coming back to, no matter what.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Passionate works pretty well, I think...even if the adrenaline around it is low.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. It's not always obvious, which I guess is why I don't think of it as 'passionate', but gods help you if you cross me with that. ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins. sounds like passion to me.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: hm
    Adelene Dawner: part of why I so often let that take a back burner is that there seems to be so little I can *do*... but, at the same time, I *am* doing the best thing I can be doing right now, learning... so when opportunities for useful action come up (as they may even be coming up now), I will be able to see them and take the right action.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...yes. I do that too in my life.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the way I am deliberate is to prepare myself for the opportunities I see might be coming my way.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: If I think there is something that I will be doing in the future that is going to align with my values...I focus on how to be prepared for it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so..if I think that I might be "being a boss" in the future...I find opportunities to learn to be the best boss I can be.
    Adelene Dawner: Oddly enough, my learning about this stuff isn't deliberate at all, it 'just happens'... I actually stumbled into the hip-hop by way of a completely unrelated series of events on StumbleUpon. But I kept listening because it fit so well with everything else.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: most of my preparing looks just like that.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I do what you are doing too...I follow the links that make most sense...like reading about anarchy.
    Adelene Dawner: yup
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so in bossness...I am following Gaya's suggestions often...as she has "links" to things that I can use to be a better boss.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a high value in my life.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and I am VERY aware that "anarchy" and "bossness" are very different world views.
    Adelene Dawner: I've found StumbleUpon to be useful to me - it seems to do the same kind of 'cloud of associations' thing that I do.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: Not completely incompatible, Corvus. :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins..."not if I can help it, they aren't"
    Adelene Dawner: I've always seen 'boss' as just another skill set. No better, no worse... there doesn't have to be that hierarchal component to it. And anarchy isn't the same as chaos. ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Exactly. And part of being "the best boss I can be" to me, is figuring out how to allow more anarchy into the system.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner notes that a flock of crows doesn't have a lead bird, like a vee of geese... but having a bird in the flock who's particularly good at finding north is a good thing. ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins. "Yes."
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so....enough about my search....I'm still interested in yours.
    Adelene Dawner: And even with the vee of geese, the bird at the point of the vee isn't 'the leader' - it's the one who's taking the most strain, for the moment, and they switch regularly. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: With me... I dunno. I actually don't have a goal. I have an idea that it'd be nice for the world to be a bit less hierarchal, less prejudiced, less judgmental. I have no idea how to get there... but then, I'm not a big wheel who can make the world get there even if I knew. I've always kind of known that I'm more of a little wheel with a talent for being in the right place with the right words at the right time.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: then your "job" is to be there more often.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: only because it is satisfying, perhaps.
    Adelene Dawner: And the more I learn, the more 'right words' I have... and yes, 'being there' is a good thing too, though I haven't figured out how to make that happen any better than randomly.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Being here is a start.
    Adelene Dawner: Yup.
    Adelene Dawner: And the Neuroversity project has potential.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins. I don't know what that is?
    Adelene Dawner: Oh, it's hopefully going to be another branch of Kira... Mark and I want to get a group of neurologically unusual people together to talk about how we perceive reality.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: But perhaps, now that you have your canoe sort of pointed in this direction...more "places" and "times" will present themselves...and you will stick your oar in the just right place and let the water push you.
    Adelene Dawner: Yup :)
    Adelene Dawner: It's funny; when the 'intentional life' idea comes up, my first reaction is "I have no *clue* how to do that", but when I step back and look at what I'm doing, I'm doing it without even realizing it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Adelene Dawner: Which kind of implies that the *concept* of 'intentional living' is actually counterproductive, maybe - if you have to think about it, you're doing it wrong?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Adelene Dawner thinks she has the wiki title, right there ^.^
    Violent agreement begins here... ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know..I never used the words before...but the concept leaps out as familiar nonetheless.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the intention is in being brave enough to stick that oar in.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and go with it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: into the white water.
    Adelene Dawner: It strikes me as talking-about-doing instead of just-doing... talking about putting the oar in the water means you're wasting time that could be spent learning the best way to actually handle that oar.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: some of us have to remember that we are going to have to stick the oar in.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and not just learn how.
    Adelene Dawner: mm.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: accepting that sometimes we won't do it quite right, or the water isn't what we thought and the canoe will turn over anyway...leaving us all wet.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: having gotten wet a lot.
    Adelene Dawner: oh, yes.
    Adelene Dawner: But how else can you learn?
    Adelene Dawner: Life isn't books.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Adelene Dawner: (Reading about something and doing it are utterly different, I mean)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes...but it helps to "receive instruction" as well as to practice.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: tell, show, do, review
    Adelene Dawner: mmm... maybe it's me, but that's never actually worked for me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles...one of my favorite boss mantras...
    Adelene Dawner: not in that sense anyway
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I read, research, think, talk...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: watch
    Adelene Dawner: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: try
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: evaluate
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wash, rinse, repeat.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: receive instruction does not mean"wait for someone to tell me what to do"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it means...listen to Adelene's way of sorting through info and see what kind of sense it makes given the rest of the info I have....and then find spots in it that interest me I can probe further.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: among other things.
    Adelene Dawner: My point is that 'receiving instruction' is actually a step (or two, or three) removed from actual experience. All the reading-about-canoing in the world doesn't teach you how to actually paddle a canoe. But combining reading - seeing what other people have thought about canoing - and real-world application, does work. The thing is, though, you have to actually *test* the ideas, and see if they work - so what you're actually learning from is the personal experience of applying those ideas, not the ideas themselves.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's just one step in the four step process...and I see "receive instruction: as the same thing that you are talking about...and in this case, canoing, it also involved watching others stick their oars in and evaluating when, where and how they chose to do it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I guess that one formulation is too passive for the idea I'm trying to express.
    Adelene Dawner: I think 'why' is important. You have to know WHY a certain technique works in certain situations, to know how to properly apply it... that's just about impossible to learn just from watching someone else.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..."verbal or written instruction"
    Adelene Dawner: But, we're agreeing... 'try' is a very important step.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..a positive word in this context.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: as is "do"
    Adelene Dawner: I guess my thing with that is that the 'try' part was actually discouraged, for me, when I was growing up... school, yek. We were supposed to sit, listen, repeat, and not *think* at all.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. "like being tied up...especially for those of us who know that learning is an active process"
    Adelene Dawner: So I think I generalized that... and really, it's not too uncommon for people to *still* expect me to do that, and get upset when I don't.
    Quel entered just in time to join in on a topic that he is obviously pretty passionate about. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Quel :)
    Quel Karillion: Hello Adelene, Corvi :)
    Adelene Dawner: floofy wings ^.^
    Quel Karillion smiles.
    Quel Karillion: thank you :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. "i struggle with it too...i learned to follow directions well, to cut them up and make them easy...but I chafed under those ropes, too
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: glad to see you, Quel.
    Adelene Dawner: If I ever have kids, I am *definitely* homeschooling - and unschooling, at that.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think you would have to...if they were your kids.
    Adelene Dawner: pretty hefty 'if' there though.
    Quel Karillion: School is a dying institution :)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles at Corvi.
    Adelene Dawner: I wish, Quel.
    Adelene Dawner: Unfortunately it seems like a necessary building block for this kind of society. :(
    Quel Karillion: School is being made unnecessary by the availability of information online.
    Adelene Dawner: Whoever said school was about gaining information?
    Quel Karillion: well, if it's not that, then what's the point?
    Adelene Dawner: Keep kids out of their parents hair, so the parents can work.
    Quel Karillion: ah well, that's one thing people use it for, yes.
    Adelene Dawner digs up an article that words it better than she's able to.
    Quel Karillion: but school kids are already chafing badly against school system. For them, it's simply a prison already.
    Quel Karillion: a place that forces them to stop being together.
    Adelene Dawner: yes... and ageism of that sort is another kid of oppression that I object to. But again, it's a fundamental part of this kind of society.
    Quel Karillion: there's a change coming... perhaps faster than most people would expect.
    Adelene Dawner: Not fast enough. :)
    Quel Karillion: well, can't have everything you want :)
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Quel Karillion: there's a huge amount of inertia in a society.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins..society needs a few more skillful oars
    Quel Karillion: well, mostly because there's a huge amount of inertia in the people that comprise the society :)
    Adelene Dawner: "Form follows function. Everything evolves into a shape dictated by the demands placed on it. And no one demands more of schools than that they keep kids off the streets till they're old enough for college. So that's what they do. At my school, it was easy not to learn anything, but hard to get out of the building without getting caught."
    Adelene Dawner: http://www.paulgraham.com/renerds.html
    Quel Karillion: ah yes, I've read that :)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not to mention that the peof course it would be a different place if the effort were on making it a place where people generally wanted to stay.
    Quel Karillion: now, if they'd just understand to change the places so that kids don't want to get out of there.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: perhaps that is part of "living intentionally"
    Adelene Dawner: Ah, yes, but that takes *effort*, Quel, and why would anyone waste effort on stupid immature dangerous teenagers? </annoyed sarcasm>
    Quel Karillion: kindergarten seems to do the job much better :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: figuring out where to prioritize efforts according to ones values?
    Quel Karillion: Would seem to me that to get a real change going, the parents of the kids would need to get interested in general.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: many parents are trying too hard to survive and work to focus on "education" and "school"
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. Again, though, society - they're too busy working to keep up with the Joneses and most of them have already bought into the idea that this is just the way it is and teenagers are 'supposed to be like that'.
    Adelene Dawner grins at Corvus :)
    Quel Karillion: yep, the inertia I was talking about :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: this is a place that needs some skillful oars
    Adelene Dawner: which?
    Quel Karillion: school?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Adelene Dawner: Personally I think the whole system needs to be thrown out and *maybe* rebuilt from scratch.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire shrugs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: perhaps.
    Quel Karillion: too radical to have any chance of happening.
    Adelene Dawner: But the whole ageism thing will need to be dealt with a *little* more than it is now, for even that to work.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and perhaps there are other ways to make change, too.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Quel Karillion: but really, the problem isn't the system but the people who want the system.
    Adelene Dawner: yup
    Quel Karillion: to change the system, the people who want it need to, see that the change is necessary
    Adelene Dawner: That's why I don't really focus much on the problems with school - I have the right to solve it on a personal level (yay unschooling) and the societal level is way too firmly entrenched right now. So I'll poke at society from other angles instead, that have a better chance of doing something useful.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Quel Karillion: that's sensible.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sometimes..one is the source of change.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and sometimes one is the source of "changes in ways of thinking"
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: It's all interconnected anyway
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one introduces memes and synthesizes ideas....and stands where they get to the right mouths and hands.
    Quel Karillion: allowing people to connect more directly with each other is doing a lot.
    Adelene Dawner: The inroads that the disability community has made and is making are built on the backs of the inroads that other groups have made... and maybe in 30 or 40 years the kids' rights movement will be building on the back of work I'm doing now.
    Quel Karillion: the improved connectivity people are having is accelerating the forming of groups of this sort.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Adelene.
    Quel Karillion was rather surprised at what's going on in facebook.
    Adelene Dawner: oh?
    Quel Karillion: well, surprisingly fast and wide reactions to things that are happening.
    Quel Karillion: for example one major media concern just fired their head editor for a newspaper for having a registered lesbian partnership.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no!
    Quel Karillion: the next day one of my friends was inviting me to a group with a name saying that we don't need shielding from public lesbians.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahahah
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for the record..I'm a lesbian.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and suddenly feel the need to state that publicly.
    Adelene Dawner: ah, that - not surprising. I've been expecting to start seeing that kind of pattern for a while now. We as a society are really going to have to get right with the idea that people are complex and not perfect, now that all that information is available so easily online.
    Quel Karillion: and the group is growing rather fast.
    Adelene Dawner grins at Corvus... "I can beat that - asexual, here."
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts...both make baby having kinda more of a chore.
    Adelene Dawner: yup.
    Quel Karillion: already 868 members in the group, was 125 when I joined it.
    Adelene Dawner: My thought is that *all* sex is kinda weird, and not my business unless someone's being obnoxious to me-personally about it. So, really, what's the kerfluffle?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles..it's not really the sex that is a problem for society...more it's the relationships.
    Adelene Dawner rolls her eyes.
    Quel Karillion: reproduction is serious business :P
    Adelene Dawner: Then again, 'marriage' has never made a whole heck of a lot of sense to me either. If you happen to find yourself in a committed, apparently permanent relationship with someone, great, but why does it need a special name and special rules?
    Quel Karillion: it's a gesture of sorts.
    Quel Karillion: problem is, most people don't seem to realize what it actually means.
    Quel Karillion: they're just taught it's something to go for
    Adelene Dawner: yes-and, codifying it makes it mean *less*, not more.
    Quel Karillion: but lack understanding of what it really means. Hence all the divorces.
    Adelene Dawner: Which is more meaningful - staying with someone when you're perfectly free to leave at any time with no repercussions, or staying with someone when, in order to leave, you have to go through the hassle of government paperwork crap and then explaining it to all your friends and anyone who ever asks if you've been married?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: let me tell you..no matter what your intention...once one starts in relationship obligations form. and there will be repercussions.
    Adelene Dawner: Well, yes, but they're obligations and repercussion-situations you've personally chosen to take on, and thus they're meaningful.
    Quel Karillion: if both parties understand what they're agreeing to when they form the marriage. Yes, it's more meaningful.
    Quel Karillion: if not, all it is is a kind of prison.
    Adelene Dawner: yes, Quel
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and thinks hard about this...and about something Adelene once said about hurting the boyfriend...
    Adelene Dawner: Relationships are complicated, Corvus. I just don't see adding that kind of structure as useful. There's good reasons that I'm not married to the boy yet, and I may never be, even if we stay together for the rest of our lives.
    Adelene Dawner: Talking about that may be useful...
    Adelene Dawner: He and I haven't talked about this at the length that I'd like to, yet, but it's obvious that marriage means something specific to him. I get the impression that it means... permanence... once we get married, he doesn't have to try to make the relationship work any more, because it's permanent and won't break no matter what he does.
    Adelene Dawner: Which is completely ridiculous.
    Quel Karillion: if that's what it means to him, doesn't sound a wise choice to agree.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods in complete agreement.
    Adelene Dawner: I could be wrong, like I said we haven't talked at length about it. But when he's mentioned 'when we get married', it seems to always point to that concept.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes, it often does.
    Quel Karillion: does sound like it'd be a good idea to finally talk about it.
    Adelene Dawner: yes.
    Adelene Dawner: And, this relates back to 'hurting BF' because it seems like he keeps forgetting that we aren't married-by-that-definition, and taking it/me for granted, and the only way I've found to get him back looking at reality is to point out firmly what will happen if he doesn't, which is that I will leave, which is a possibility that he finds very painful.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and most of us do..."I will withdraw my affection and support" is a huge threat.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for me at least.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. And that's not something I'd do lightly.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Quel Karillion: oh yes, ... is this going to the wiki by the way?
    Adelene Dawner: I'd assumed so. I can cut anything, if you two would like.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I just sent this to a friend of mine who is negotiating with a person who'd like her to be more..."in relationship" than she wants to be.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: "You are my family, I love you..when you (x) I feel (y) and I'd like for you to (z) -from dancing with anger
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Corvus... doesn't work. Tried it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: only problem with this formulation for me..is sometimes the other person doesn't want to do what I "would like for them to do"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the answer is...to choose a consistent response on your part to their behavior.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one that truly works for you.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: according to my understanding of the book.
    Adelene Dawner: Boy is the type of person - rather like me - who won't do things unless he understands *why* they're needed. And he's having a lot of trouble with 'because Ann needs X in order to stay sane' being a real reason.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think it's an important reason.
    Adelene Dawner: I've done the consistent response thing - doesn't really work.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: you are consistently threatening to leave?
    Quel Karillion: important reason but ... kind of difficult to explain.
    Adelene Dawner: Mostly because it's rather arbitrary, from his perspective... he does X, I get mad because it's a threat to me, he sees the anger as arbitrary because he doesn't understand that X is a threat. And if it's arbitrary, it's not real.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: 'threatening to leave' is part of the larger 'angry' pattern... not that 'angry' is even the best word there. But the pattern is consistent.
    Adelene Dawner: The issue isn't what behaviors either of us is showing, really. It's his lack of understanding.
    Adelene Dawner: And I don't know how to fix that. I've tried.
    Adelene Dawner: We talk and talk and talk and he *says* he gets it, but then does the same exact stuff that shows the same exact lack of understanding.
    Adelene Dawner: I'm honestly starting to think that he's not going to grok the real situation unless I *do* have some sort of a breakdown.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. I suspect you will find another way to communicate clearly.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Now that you have your canoe pointed that way.
    Adelene Dawner: Maybe.
    Adelene Dawner: I think that actually leaving may *be* that other way. I can always come back if it works.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: But, not a question to be answered now in any case.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. " You have plenty of time"-Gaya
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: Well, I have work I should be doing, and a deadline in less than 4 hours.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have to go...my rl lunch date just called me...but I have very much enjoyed this discussion....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles...see ya all later!
    Adelene Dawner: Indeed. Thank you both. ^.^
    Quel Karillion: Ok, see you later :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Quel! Adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: bye folks ^.^
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