2008.10.16 19:00 - of Spaces and Resources

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    stevenaia Michinaga was standing in as Guardian on Call for Sylectra Darwin who was traveling to the PaB Fest in Princeton.  The comments are Stevenaia's


     Much of our discussion tonight was circling around a poem and blog comments that Adelene Dawner posted

     stevenaia Michinaga: hi Ade
    Adelene Dawner: hi ^.^
    doug Sosa: Ade, that's you?!
    Adelene Dawner: yup, see the wings? ^.^
    doug Sosa: ah.
    stevenaia Michinaga: Doug, I don;t see you yet, bug lag for me tonight
    Rowan Masala: Griffin?
    Threedee Shepherd: Merv?
    Adelene Dawner: winged lion.
    doug Sosa: hm, if i move?
    Threedee Shepherd: REmind me if any of you besides me and Ade will be at the RL PaB this weekend?
    stevenaia Michinaga: there you are, seem if I zoom I see you, one at a time
    stevenaia Michinaga: raises hand
    doug Sosa: so sorry to miss.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'll be there for breakfast on saturday
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: just updated the attendees webpage
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am subbing for Sylectra tonight who should be on the red eye to Newark shortly
    doug Sosa: will you be coming on line while in Princeton, for the regular sessins?
    stevenaia Michinaga: and subbing for you tomarrow Ade...smile
    stevenaia Michinaga: not sure what the plans are
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ thanks
    doug Sosa: the fun of being in a circle watching the avatars in a circle!
    doug Sosa: "avatars..
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I think we are Playing Play as Being by ear
    Rowan Masala laughs
    Adelene Dawner: I do have a PaB topic actually, if we want one. It cna wait though - it's more for Pema, though Being only knows when he'll actually *come* to one of these. ^.^
    doug Sosa: it souds like a new version of Canterburry tales
    doug Sosa: yes, please ade
    stevenaia Michinaga: He does have his scheduled times
    Adelene Dawner: they're very inconvenient for me tho. We do email, but it's not the same.
    stevenaia Michinaga: what, 4 in the morning isn;t your time?
    Adelene Dawner: ...hmm, I thought I'd put it on my blog... will do now, then. hold on
    Bell: *ding*
    stevenaia Michinaga: finally, a talking bell

    I was interested in the bell that sounded in "text" every 15  minutes, Adelene Dawner let us know it was something she had scripted.  I realized after editing this log that it also gives the reader a sense of the passage of time at theses session, something that was never particular clear in the past. Usually, those of us would hear the "gong" but unless someone would text it, the passage of time would be lost on the reader.

    Adelene Dawner: heh ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: That's a HUD I'm wearing.
    doug Sosa: ??
    Adelene Dawner: The talking bell.
    Adelene Dawner: It won't do that when I'm not here.
    stevenaia Michinaga: you are the bell?
    Adelene Dawner: yes, Steve. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner goes 'ding'
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: where do you get something like that?

    Adelene Dawner posted the link of her blog as a discussion topic... a discussion of "Space" follows

    Adelene Dawner: ok, I'm ready with the blog post - this is the same writing I shared at the last session but I have more thoughts to add. http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/2222.html
    Adelene Dawner: Steve, I made it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'm impressed
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Adelene Dawner: Feel free to ask, by the way, if there's something simple like that that you'd like to have. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: (this HUD isn't complete, yet; when it is I'll be making it available to the group. ^.^)
    Rowan Masala tries to imagine what the possibilities might be

    A short clarification of HUD is visited at doug Sosa's request

    doug Sosa: HUD?
    Adelene Dawner: Near endless, Ro. The major limitation is your imagination. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: HUD = Heads Up Device - it's 'attached' to your screen, and is not visible to anyone but you, but othewise acts like any other attached object.
    doug Sosa: hm? Not getting it.
    Adelene Dawner: HUDs are usually useful add-on feature things... I have a HUD that's full of buttons to do different animations for this AV, for example, so I don't have to go fishing around in my inventory every time I want to sit properly.
    stevenaia Michinaga: very nice poem and blog entry Ade
    Adelene Dawner: yes ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: And, doug, with that hud like all huds, the buttons are just 'there' on my screen... nobody but me can see them, but I can see them all the time (unless I press the 'hide hud' button to make it dissapear out of my way)
    doug Sosa: the "not" is the presence of being?
    Adelene Dawner: um... not really
    stevenaia Michinaga: the "not" is the container of the presents
    doug Sosa: The not in the whell, the pot and the room?
    stevenaia Michinaga: presence
    doug Sosa: presents :)
    Adelene Dawner: *everything* is the presence of Being. The not places are not especially so.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    doug Sosa: ah, good.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, funny how my misguided typing sometimes takes us place
    stevenaia Michinaga: Doug, was your hair always green?
    Threedee Shepherd: the concept of *A* space set apart that is something useful made out of nothing is interesting and not even metaphoric.
    Adelene Dawner: yes
    doug Sosa: the poe stresses the ordinary "useful"
    doug Sosa: "poem
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is what I do in rl
    Adelene Dawner: though really, the space isn't useful all by itself. It's useful in its potential to be filled.
    stevenaia Michinaga: like this pavillion
    Adelene Dawner: yes ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: without people it is still something
    stevenaia Michinaga: with people it is someing more
    Bell: *ding*
    Adelene Dawner: *grins*
    doug Sosa: the unsaid is that the sage's mind' is useful to others because it is empty.
    Adelene Dawner laughs! "*that* sounds familiar..."
    Threedee Shepherd: Hmm, in trying to think of a space that is useful because it is empty, I came up with a grassy park that is NOT built on in order to preserve a view.
    Adelene Dawner: sounds like it's full of beautiful things, then, Three.
    stevenaia Michinaga: so it is useful because it is observed?
    Threedee Shepherd: No, the beautiful things are beyond it on the other side and would be blocked by a bu8ilding, in my example. I wasan't clear.
    Adelene Dawner: mm.
    stevenaia Michinaga: so is the space defined by a building surrounding it, or deminished by the building being there or blocking the view of it
    doug Sosa: need to say bye.
    Adelene Dawner: (That's really not the same as what the poem was talking about, though, three)
    Adelene Dawner: cya Doug
    Threedee Shepherd: And the high ceiling multistorey space in a medieval church is intententionally hugh and empty to evoke the grandeur of heaven
    Threedee Shepherd: huge
    Threedee Shepherd: I know, I was trying to go beyond the poem in a more general way
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, that's a pattern, and a real one. It's a different one from the pattern I was trying to talk about tho. ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps you were refering to place not space
    Adelene Dawner: Three is, yes.
    Threedee Shepherd: green park is place but church emptyness is space, I think
    Adelene Dawner: At the last session, we concluded that I'm using the word 'space' in a way that's related to 'resources'
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, that makes sense
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes three
    Adelene Dawner: The empty park is a resource being used by the people who want to see the view - it's not available for anyone else to use, it's not a 'left open space'
    stevenaia Michinaga: is that how you see the poem, Ade?
    Adelene Dawner: Um... yes, though I know that's not the only way to read it. But the idea I was trying to put words around came up before I remembered that the poem discussed something close to that idea, by several weeks.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ade, that's a bit subtle. What IS the pattern I diverted us from?
    Threedee Shepherd: the *idea* you want to explore more, that is
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Corvi
    Adelene Dawner: Hi, Corvi. We're talking about my most recent blog post: http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/2222.html
    Rowan Masala: hi Corvi! :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya!
    Adelene Dawner: This wording seems to work: How to use resources in a way that correctly takes into account other demands than the immediately obvious ones.
    Threedee Shepherd: Sounds a bit too open ended if taken very far into the future
    Adelene Dawner: (I'm not even going to say 'other people's needs' because doing this kind of thing wrong means you get in your *own* way, too)
    Adelene Dawner: Well, yes, that's part of it, it's hard-to-impossible to correctly guess what the future will bring.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Corvi, sees you now
    Threedee Shepherd: The path to the past is unitary, those to the future grow exponentially
    Adelene Dawner: Pema's 4th-time is relevant to this concept-set, Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: The hard to predict suggests a rule for the present that is generic: make as few ripples as possible
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, just ask the newest Noble Prize winner in Economics who said... I should have seen this coming
    Adelene Dawner: Or, as one of my discordian cards says: The only rela problem in life is what to do next.
    Adelene Dawner: *real
    Skittles whispers: Enjoy Your Skittles!
    stevenaia Michinaga: choice = problem?
    Adelene Dawner: That, too, Steve. ^.^
    Bell: *ding*
    stevenaia Michinaga: choice = solution to problem of choice
    Skittles whispers: Uh Oh, all gone, better get another
    Threedee Shepherd: Gee Rowan, WHATS in those Skittles?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Rowan Masala: so sorry
    Rowan Masala: I think they must have had something else in them
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Oh, god..don't be sorry!
    Rowan Masala: that's what I get for taking freebies
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: too funny
    stevenaia Michinaga: hash skittles?
    Rowan Masala grins at Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins big, back.
    Adelene Dawner is resisting the temptation to take a picture... ^.^
    Rowan Masala: oh, go ahead
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: why resist?
    Adelene Dawner: *snerk* ok then...
    Rowan Masala: if I can talk about moaning in PaB, I can certainly have my photo taken
    Threedee Shepherd: I repeat, hoping for a reply: The hard to predict future suggests a rule for the present that is generic: make as few ripples as possible
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not make ripples?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what else are we for?
    Adelene Dawner: yes ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: why else make us?
    Rowan Masala is all about ripples
    Threedee Shepherd: If you want to preserve the options of the future, do less in the present, or be careful only to do as much as is *necessary*, I am suggesting
    stevenaia Michinaga: as necessary for what?
    Adelene Dawner: wait, which future are you preserving options *for*? This is already yesterday's future.
    Rowan Masala tries to remember where she read that recently--do only what you must
    Threedee Shepherd: Don't make a carving of a life-sized walnut from a one-ton block of marble.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...sometimes options open from doing?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: things that couldn't happen if you didn't do?
    stevenaia Michinaga: but isn;t a toothpick made from a tree
    Threedee Shepherd: Usually more than just ONE toothpick, though ^.^
    Rowan Masala: yes, but we don't make a toothpick the size of a tree out of leaves
    stevenaia Michinaga: and perhaps more than one marble walnut
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Threedee Shepherd: I do woodworking as a hobby. Like many woodworkers I know, I have boxes of small scraps of wood saved for "something" rather than thrown away.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: string too short to save.
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s not that the thought if flawed, but demands a better execution
    Rowan Masala nods
    Rowan Masala: unmatched beads and buttons
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Rowan.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I still think I'm missing something important in what you are saying, Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, what I am suggesting is that if future possibilities are so hard to predict, it seems useful to have some *rules* in the present that are conserving
    Rowan Masala: but on the other hand, if the future is hard to predict, why not explore as many options as possible?
    Threedee Shepherd: As in old Ben Franklin's saying: Waste not, want not.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I find so often that people are conserving and not investing.
    Adelene Dawner: conserving for what? When do we 'get there' to get the payoff, to say "ok, I can spend the money I saved"?
    Rowan Masala nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I conserve when I should invest.
    Threedee Shepherd: how about conservation rather than global warming?
    Rowan Masala: isn't Being about Now?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am sometimes afraid to move cause I don't know what direction to go.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so I wind up nowhere.
    Adelene Dawner: Differentin, Three
    Rowan Masala nods at Corvi
    Adelene Dawner: *Different topic again, Three
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, pull me back to the pattern at hand
    Adelene Dawner: I don't know. We were already at one remove from what I'd written about.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Funny thing...that's often how I work at work.
    Adelene Dawner: How, Corvi?
    Threedee Shepherd: Seems to me we are still circling around: "How to use resources in a way that correctly takes into account other demands than the immediately obvious ones."
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: If I want an outcome int he grocery store..
    Adelene Dawner: 'immediate' is not about time, there, three. It's a descriptor on 'obvious' - it's about perspective.
    Threedee Shepherd: so were are then at: "How to use resources in a way that correctly takes into account other demands than the obvious ones.
    Adelene Dawner: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: avoiding unintended consequences?
    Adelene Dawner: And by definition, pretty much, you don't know about non-obvious demands.
    Adelene Dawner: Kinda, Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: hard to avoid what is unseen
    Threedee Shepherd: EXACTLY
    Adelene Dawner: Yes.
    Adelene Dawner: So what *can* we do?
    Bell: *ding*
    Threedee Shepherd: be flexible, don't get too attached...isn't that what your blog suggests as one possibility?
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: be ready to move if you need to.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I sometimes have to deal in the realities of what is unseen, the solution is to apply more reseources to the problem such that an probable outcome can be resolved
    Adelene Dawner: When you're planning, make sure you plan is flexable, as flexable as possible.
    Adelene Dawner: And where do those resources come from, Steve, and who else could be using them productively?
    Threedee Shepherd: I think the business school (and others) way of putting that is: Keep your options open.
    Threedee Shepherd: Or to be more graphic, "Don't burn your bridges in front of you."
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: And at exactly the *right* moment, do commit. (Now if only I could do that with my retirement fund that's invested;)
    stevenaia Michinaga: in my case the unseen if dealt with by "Change orders" or in this case "flexibilities"eventually , in buildings, the unseen becomes seen and money fixes the probelm
    stevenaia Michinaga: *is dealt
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: put your oar in at just the right place.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and let the river push you.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: through the rapids.
    Adelene Dawner: *yes*, Corvi.
    stevenaia Michinaga: or, you go over the falls?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. Ya might get wet.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yet so few people do
    Rowan Masala: get wet?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It takes alot of work to figure out how.
    stevenaia Michinaga: so there must be many places to put your ore in
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's easy to get wet.
    Threedee Shepherd: Steve, a totally irrelvant story: I was in charge of getting the renovations done for a Language lab in the university, over the summer for fall semester. It cost $250,000. which was well over the limit for just proceeding without months of delaying paperwork. So we added it as a change order to an adjacent $20,000. project ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahahah
    stevenaia Michinaga: shuffling resources
    Adelene Dawner: In order for the writing to make sense as intended, you have to be past the personal-me, personal-gain perspective *and* accept that 'now' is the only relevant timeframe.
    Threedee Shepherd: Is that like saying the only effect you can have any potential to control if the NOW you are in and at?
    Threedee Shepherd: *is the
    Adelene Dawner: yup.
    Threedee Shepherd: Where's Avastu?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Adelene Dawner: Like I said, this already *is* yesterday's future... when we get to the future you keept bringing up, Three, it'll still be 'now'. ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: but how can a professional (land) planner, for instance exist ONLY in now then they look decades ahead to guide future direction of change, as they do, not predict but sometiems redirect
    Threedee Shepherd: good point, Steve, not doing that leads to surbubia run rampent, as just one example
    stevenaia Michinaga: a good example of not planning ahead
    Adelene Dawner: Wrong sense of 'now', Steve.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: of course you plan ahead... build a good pattern, which involves at least four dimensions... but you still only do that *in* a moving now.
    stevenaia Michinaga: agree
    stevenaia Michinaga: I often think about the next now and how it takes form
    Adelene Dawner: So you can't say 'I'll save now and spend in the future'... when you get to 'the future', it'll still be *now*, there'll still be more future to save for, so when do you get the payoff?
    stevenaia Michinaga: when you change
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one says, maybe, I'll save for "x event"
    Adelene Dawner: yes, Corvi
    Threedee Shepherd: So does: "How to use resources in a way that correctly takes into account other demands than the obvious ones?" have answers other than vigilance and flexibility and a bit of wu wei?
    Adelene Dawner: make a pattern
    Adelene Dawner: in 4d.
    Rowan Masala: I must go. Have a good night, all
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...and keep adding relevant information to it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Rowan.
    Threedee Shepherd: night rowan,
    stevenaia Michinaga: night
    Bell: *ding*
    Adelene Dawner: That's pretty much it, Three.... this is an examination of the 'flexability' part of that equation.
    Threedee Shepherd: Well here's a tangent: A pattern drawn in chalk is washed away by the next rain. One in paint is too permanent.
    Adelene Dawner: Depends on what you want it for. ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: I had an interesting encounter with a pastor client today , that relates to flexibility.....
    Adelene Dawner: oh?
    Threedee Shepherd: But there ARE choice points given the finiteness of this life. As a senior in college I had to decide whether I wanted to be an M.D. or a Ph.D. Professor. Both took over 5 years. I could not realistically expect to be and do both (although some try).
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Claire
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, Claire
    Claire Beltran: Hello ^-^/
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Claire
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Three - didn't say there aren't.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but if you had done nothing..you would not have had more choice.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi claire
    Threedee Shepherd: perhaps Corvi, and no interesting career.
    Adelene Dawner: 'choice' and 'resource' are two different things. Not completely unrelated, but different.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: resources = opportunities to choose?
    Adelene Dawner: can be... or, can lead to or facilitate
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Threedee Shepherd: did you tell us about the Pastor, Steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: working on it...
    stevenaia Michinaga: So I had this really interesting phone call with an Episcopal paster client at a local church we are doing a chapel for (actually as a gift from a congregation they merged with) she hired me as she liked how I dealt with the last charity I worked with and she was on the facilities committee, so she got to know how I work..., in any case she was kind enough to choose me. She's actually a strong willed but pretty funny paster. I think she could get a Mac Truck to back down, but we get along great.
    stevenaia Michinaga: So she calls me back as I had a call into her.... she was in a really crappy mood, .. or as she put it .. she was just back from the Funeral from Hell. Seems there were relatives who didn;t get along. She had to officiate the funeral with a heavy hand and was in a miserable mood. Had to tell them all to "Leave it at the door!!!"
    stevenaia Michinaga: So she's telling me this, all crabby, we begin to talk and before you know it we are both laughing and going on and on about the chapel and looking things up and talking about this... and that... she was like, at the end of the conversation... I have to call you more often.....
    stevenaia Michinaga: Seems resouces of change can be found wherever they need to be
    Adelene Dawner: yup ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    stevenaia Michinaga: as we made both of our days
    stevenaia Michinaga: please join us Claire, have a seat
    stevenaia Michinaga: where are you guys staying tomarrow, Three and Ade?
    Claire Beltran: Sorry, I have to get going... ^^;
    Adelene Dawner: The local Red Roof Inn
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Claire.
    Claire Beltran: I might be back later. See you all! ^-^/
    Adelene Dawner: cya Claire
    PaB Listener Master: Removing "Claire Beltran" from list.
    Threedee Shepherd: I'll have a car, because I am on a panel at a meeting in Phila on saturday afternoon.
    Bell: *ding*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Time for me to go, too.
    Adelene Dawner swats Three with her tail. "It's 11:30 local time, we should go too."
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: 'night all
    Threedee Shepherd: Me too, gotta finish packing.
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Corvi, I'll call it a night as well and close the log
    Adelene Dawner: 'night Corvi
    Threedee Shepherd: night Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: see you saturday
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: See ya'll someday.
    Adelene Dawner: 'night Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to join me here tomarrow night..smile
    Threedee Shepherd: night all
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