2008.10.21 13:00 - Openness of the SL av v. determination of the RL self

The Guardian this session was genesis Zhangsun. The Comments below are hers.

I arrived to meet Wol and Corvi. 

Wol Euler: hello gen
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 1) it is actually painful, and sometimes naseating if I think too hard on something, now.
Wol Euler: O.O
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 2) I am not sure it's not my imagination.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Gen
Genesis Zhangsun: Hi all sorry I am late
Wol Euler: mmmhmmmmmmmm
Wol Euler: no worries
Genesis Zhangsun: How is it going?
Wol Euler: pretty well, thanks. and you?
Genesis Zhangsun: Ok I am at IAS still
Genesis Zhangsun: working this week
Wol Euler: ah
Genesis Zhangsun: it was interesting seeing all the people that came in RL

Here I was referring to the PaB fest which took place the previous weekend.

Wol Euler: I'm envious, I think...
Genesis Zhangsun: yes?
Wol Euler: meeting everyone (good), but also meeting the RL avs instead of the SL ones I know so well (maybe bad)
Wol Euler: though I admit that I have put the photos out of mind quite well, without working at it.
Genesis Zhangsun: I don't know whether it will change my perception
Genesis Zhangsun: I haven't really had an opportunity to test it out
Wol Euler nods.
Genesis Zhangsun: Oh no thats not true
Genesis Zhangsun: I met Adams and Adelene
Genesis Zhangsun: and actually did not change my perception much
Genesis Zhangsun: as I just remembered it noe
Genesis Zhangsun: *now
Wol Euler: I've met in RL people I know as visually-anonymous bloggers, and the experience has been wholly positive; so who knows.
Genesis Zhangsun: yeah for me it is like two people not one
Genesis Zhangsun: like I got another friend
Genesis Zhangsun: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Wol Euler: :-)
Genesis Zhangsun: I don't really see one as more of a true self than the other
Wol Euler: if anything, one might consider SL to be truer, because it is _chosen_ whreas our RL physicalities are accidents of bith
Wol Euler: *birth
Genesis Zhangsun: yeah that could be right
Genesis Zhangsun: it tells you a lot more information in a way
Genesis Zhangsun: though body language tells you more
Genesis Zhangsun: not the appearance of the person but the way they act and their eyes
Wol Euler: mmhmm, that is missing here of curse.
Corvuscorva Nightfire guffaws
Wol Euler: which is why I do the "/me rolls her eyes" so often, trying to bring it in
Genesis Zhangsun: lol
Genesis Zhangsun: yes
Genesis Zhangsun: that is a nice touch
Genesis Zhangsun: though the unconscious movements are the most interesting
Wol Euler: yep :)
Genesis Zhangsun: really shows how body and mind are one
Wol Euler: I'm puzzling over your hair, Gen. that is an enormous 'do, or is it a sweater/scarf?

Wol is commenting on Gen's wild black tresses.

Genesis Zhangsun: it is an enormous do
Genesis Zhangsun: :)
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Wol Euler: new? I don't recall it looking htat way.
Genesis Zhangsun: maybe it kind of blends into the jacket
Genesis Zhangsun: I love big hair
Genesis Zhangsun: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles..

Fael who was also still around after the Fest walked into the room in RL and reminded me of an earlier conversation we had the night before in RL.

Genesis Zhangsun: Fael is here too and we were talking earlier about the concept of loneliness
Genesis Zhangsun: what it means
Wol Euler: mm?
Genesis Zhangsun: whether you should just accept it or whether it indicates that something should be done
Genesis Zhangsun: similar to if you put a hand on a hot stove and it tell you to take it off
Genesis Zhangsun: or whether it is just another "appearance" which should be accepted
Wol Euler: interesting...
Wol Euler: is loneliness a "fact" or a "judgement" though?
Genesis Zhangsun: yeah that is the question
Genesis Zhangsun: right on target
Wol Euler: because there is also "alone", which at least in my experience usually is neutral or even pleasant.
Genesis Zhangsun: yes alone and lonely are not the same
Wol Euler: in fact, let me propose this: to be lonely requires that there are other people _near_ you who are not _with_ you.
Wol Euler: lonely is about exclusion, maybe, even if self-exclusion.
Genesis Zhangsun: could be
Genesis Zhangsun: yes I suppose you don't realize you are lonely until you notice that something is missing which you desire (inclusion)
Wol Euler: "near" perhaps in memory or thoughts, not just phsically.
Wol Euler: yes, desire. good.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes...that's where it's a pointer.
Wol Euler: (sorry, I am stuck in geek mode, having trouble unwinding from a long and hard day at work)
Genesis Zhangsun: I am always stuck in geek mode can't blame it on work ;)
Genesis Zhangsun: Yes Corvi you see it as a pointer
Wol Euler: heheheh
Genesis Zhangsun: how so?
Wol Euler: erm. how so which?
Genesis Zhangsun: how is it a pointer?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's a pointer, like Gen and Fael were talking about.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: dissatisfaction=> satisfaction
Corvuscorva Nightfire: move...do something.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or not.
Genesis Zhangsun: yes, to move or not to move
Genesis Zhangsun: to accept does this mean to sit with it or to do something about it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe both?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sit, listen, see..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: then if need be, take action.
Corvuscorva Nightfire sighs..I'm just learning, that might not be how to do it..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..maybe?
Genesis Zhangsun: I think you are right Corvi
Genesis Zhangsun: each situation calls for different things
Genesis Zhangsun: perhaps the main thing is the awareness
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..makes sense to me.
Genesis Zhangsun: Fael is here
Wol Euler waves toFael.
Genesis Zhangsun: Fael waves back
Genesis Zhangsun: We just had the thought that action depends on the "reality"
Genesis Zhangsun: awareness of true reality
Genesis Zhangsun: sorry action in the case of loneliness
Genesis Zhangsun: if you live on a desert island and you feel lonely then to accept it matches reality
Wol Euler: :-)
Genesis Zhangsun: but if you live in a city full of millions of people and feel lonely maybe you should get out
Genesis Zhangsun: because the feel of loneliness is merely a belief
Genesis Zhangsun: conceptual?
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: hello burt
Wol Euler: bye burt
Wol Euler: since becoming a guardian, I have the tendency to greet people who arrive wherever I am -- even in RL.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh, that's wonderful!
Genesis Zhangsun: :)
Wol Euler: harder in RL of course, because the nametags and profiles are missing ...

After some silence I came back to the PaB fest...

Genesis Zhangsun: Going back to earlier about meeting people in RL
Genesis Zhangsun: I actually learned a lot about myself by the expectations I had about others
Wol Euler: ah :)
Genesis Zhangsun: my expectations said so much about my own desires and fears
Wol Euler smiles.
Genesis Zhangsun: like Maxine for example
Genesis Zhangsun: I am going to make a confession
Wol Euler: (are we still on the record?)
Genesis Zhangsun: Oh yes it is ok
Genesis Zhangsun: I have always been so impressed by her thoughtfulness in our sessions
Genesis Zhangsun: that it almost intimidated me
Genesis Zhangsun: which is so silly
Genesis Zhangsun: I was afraid to meet her
Genesis Zhangsun: isn't that strange?
Wol Euler: sounds quite normal, actually.
Genesis Zhangsun: when I met her she was just the most friendly and humble person
Genesis Zhangsun: it completely put me at ease
Wol Euler smiles
Genesis Zhangsun: and i realized that I had an idealized version of Maxine in my mind
Genesis Zhangsun: one which I feared
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Pema!
Wol Euler is woken by the bell.
Wol Euler: hello pema
Pema Pera: Hi there, Gen, Corvi, Wol!
Pema Pera: sorry to be so late . . . .
Genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema
Genesis Zhangsun: I was just talking about some of my impressions from the fest
Corvuscorva Nightfire: /em bows to all..I am called away.
Wol Euler: awww.
Pema Pera: see you Corvi!
Wol Euler: bye corvi, nice to see you again.
Wol Euler: Pema, how did you find the fest?
Wol Euler: (well, you've don it often before...)
Wol Euler: (so it wouldn't be as strange to meet fleshy avs)
Pema Pera: hard to summarize a weekend in a few lines . . .
Pema Pera: It was a rich experience, for sure
Pema Pera: rather like the PaB sessions in many ways, given that we did not have an agenda
Pema Pera: many levels of experience happening at the same time
Pema Pera: like the experience of meeting a bunch of people for the first time -- while at the same time the experience of meeting old friends whose way of thinking and feeling and expresisng are already very familiar
Pema Pera: a very odd combination of new and old in that sense, something we are not used to experiencing
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: I always wondered about blogging buddies, and now about SL friends: were we to sit by chance in neighbouring seats on a long-haul flight and getz into converation: would we recognize each other?
Pema Pera: interesting question, Wol!
Pema Pera: It may take some extended conversation -- like a flight from New York to Tokyo, which is 14 hours :-)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: I'm inclined to think that we would. perhaps not by name, but I think we would detect a known-ness, a familiarity to the shape of hte mind
Pema Pera: We can do an experiment
Pema Pera: open a PaB travel agency
Wol Euler: !
Pema Pera: unbeknownst by the travelers, they will be paired wehre possible
Pema Pera: without advance notice
Wol Euler: heheheeh
Pema Pera: Perhaps I could also add that avatars seem more tentative than their typists, perhaps a bit more open. The body language of their typists gave me more of an idea that their opinions were rather strong and not so likely to change, compared to the more open sense that avatars can more easily go in any which way upon further consideration
Wol Euler: mmmm, interesting.
Pema Pera: You know, I just noticed that
Pema Pera: hadn't thought about that before
Pema Pera: during the last few days, every few hours new observations bubble up
Pema Pera: it will probably take me a while to digest the experience
Wol Euler: I wonder if there is backformation there? Whether the openness of the SL av might loosen the determination of the RL self?
Pema Pera: could be :)
Wol Euler: wow,what a marvellous explosion of hair

I had stepped away and my av fell asleep, the flowing hair flying forward giving me away :)

Pema Pera: only the hair is not away :)
Pema Pera: Perhaps our body language provides a track for us to walk along, and then reinforces our direction of walking?
Wol Euler: could wel be.
Pema Pera: convincing ourselves as well as others?
Genesis Zhangsun: sorry
Genesis Zhangsun: I better go
Pema Pera: :-)
Genesis Zhangsun: have work to get back to
Pema Pera: see you soon again, Gen!
Genesis Zhangsun: see you later Pema!
Wol Euler: ah, take care gen. nice to see you agiain.
Genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you too Wol!
Genesis Zhangsun: bye