2008.10.26 08:00 - A Media Fast

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    At 8 am SLT, we had our weekly guardian meeting, in the Hall of Appearance. I, Pema, have added the chat log here. We started talking about our lack of time away from it all, from all electronic communications. This triggered a rather detailed discussion about organizational politics, dynamics of groups, ways to let people work together successfully. I have not tried to add comments; I'll let the meeting speak for itself.

    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Pema Pera: Hi Everybody!
    Wol Euler: hello pema
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thank you, Maxine
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pema
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm fine...it was part of a conversation I was haveing with someone...but not stress.
    Maxine Walden: OK, just wondering
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles warmly...Thank you!
    Wol Euler smiles to see Max and Adams sharing a cushion.
    Adams Rubble: Wol?
    Wol Euler: perhaps my viewer is just borked.
    Maxine Walden: ah, interesting perception. While we often share ideas over here it appears that we are on separate cushions near each other
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..I see it too.
    Geo Netizen: Is any topic ok here …. For example … how are you doing that Maxine?
    Adams Rubble: Maxine and I are on quite different cushions :)
    Maxine Walden: ...doing what, Geo?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: interesting!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Neela :)
    Wol Euler: hello neela
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello everyone
    Wol Euler: awww, no kitty today.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Neela...
    Maxine Walden: maybe the topic is 'differing perceptions' today
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: must be.
    Geo Netizen: Share a pillow ... it look so cozy
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Neela!
    Geo Netizen: Hi Neela
    Adams Rubble: How many guardians would fit on a cushion
    Neela Blaisdale: waiting for everyone to rezz
    Wol Euler: Nice av though :) love the Yak and Yeti jewellry.
    Geo Netizen: :))
    Maxine Walden: I feel close to Adams, but not cushion-sharingly so
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Geo Netizen: Am I the only one hallucinating here?
    Geo Netizen: I could swear that they are sharing a pillow
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not at all..Wol and I see it htat way too.
    Neela Blaisdale: who?
    Pema Pera: I see both of them nicely separated :-)
    Wol Euler: there is a parallel universe running thorugh the room ...
    Neela Blaisdale: I see everyone separated
    Pema Pera: I'm using the old viewer still
    Pema Pera: perhaps the new viewer pairs people up?
    Maxine Walden: Again, yes Wol, maybe so
    Wol Euler: mine's ew.
    Wol Euler: *new
    Neela Blaisdale: altough Moon looks very different!:)
    Wol Euler: anyway.
    Wol Euler: chalk that one up to the mystery of Appearance.
    Geo Netizen: Ok ... I got a picture so I can prove I'm not crazy
    Pema Pera: Geo, how has it been so far, to attend PaB sessions?
    Moon Fargis: rehi
    Adams Rubble: wb Moon
    quen Oh: hello all
    Adams Rubble: Hello Quen
    Geo Netizen: Hi quen
    Wol Euler: hello quen
    Pema Pera: Hi Quen!
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Quen
    Geo Netizen: Interesting would be one word that would fit
    quen Oh: almost forgot, we have summer time, clock went back an hour..
    Geo Netizen: But that doesn’t quite capture the experience.
    Pema Pera: welcome back Quen!
    Moon Fargis: well we now got intertime :)
    quen Oh: thank you Pema
    Pema Pera: Have you tried the 9-sec in RL too, Geo?
    Moon Fargis: +w
    quen Oh: was longer gone than I thought, due to connection problems in Spain
    Geo Netizen: Pema, not consistently since I’ve a habit a little different.
    quen Oh: we got wintertime too in fact, lol
    Geo Netizen: It snowed here this morning :(
    Wol Euler: oooh
    Maxine Walden: seems like we are re-connecting today, from different places and time zones
    Maxine Walden: snow?!!
    Geo Netizen: Yes ... just a little but very white
    Pema Pera: which part of the world do you live in Geo?
    quen Oh: ;-) seems, this week I was in sunny southern spain, now in rainy golden leafy netherlands
    Geo Netizen: North
    quen Oh: mmmm how north? Greenland? Iceland? Alaska? Canada?
    quen Oh: Lapland?
    Adams Rubble: Hello Syl
    Pema Pera: Hi Syl!
    quen Oh: hi Syl
    Geo Netizen: Just a little south of Winnipeg
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi everyone! Sorry I am late.
    Wol Euler: hello syl.
    Geo Netizen: Hi Syl
    Maxine Walden: hi. Syl
    Wol Euler: oh cool! near Brandon, perhaps?
    Sylectra Darwin waves and smiles
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Syl
    quen Oh: ah... looking up Winnipeg
    Geo Netizen: Brb .. need more coffee !!
    Pema Pera: does anyone want to bring up an observation, question, idea with respect to PaB?
    quen Oh: canada! nice
    Maxine Walden: Perhaps indirectly the group was bringing up aspects of PaB re different perceptions and appearances
    Neela Blaisdale: A theme this week!
    quen Oh: well only that I want to make apologies for missing last weeks friday slot, and was also not able to warn or ask someone else..
    quen Oh: will put it on the email group
    quen Oh: hope someone can retrieve the log...
    Pema Pera: ah, you were completely outside internet contact
    Pema Pera: I'm sometimes dreaming of doign that for a week . . . . .
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Wol Euler: ack!
    Wol Euler: impossible!!
    Pema Pera: but then I would have to catch up again, making things worse afterwards
    Pema Pera: mixed blessing
    quen Oh: ;-) it was nice, only probably way more nice when you plan it, and have not the frustration of trying
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Wol Euler: I've heard the term "media fast" used for that: no phones, no radio, no tv, no internet, no newsparer ...
    quen Oh: lol the new concept of a cheap vacation: just announce you will be having a digital sabattical for 2 weeks... no more email, no internet...
    Sylectra Darwin: I've been hearing about that a lot lately from friends.
    quen Oh: gosh Wol, never heard of that..
    Wol Euler: an intriguing idea...
    Pema Pera: I think we all suffer from communication overload
    quen Oh: why not, just go to a mountain or so, enjoy the old normal life
    Sylectra Darwin: Actually this is related to the news story I heard on NPR about how multitasking is (still) confirmed by scientists as NOT helpful to actually getting things done, and done well.
    Wol Euler: we definitely have an attachment to the Internet :-)
    Maxine Walden: sometimes the overlaod can be such that we really cannot take it in, and thus the real communication ceases
    Wol Euler: yep
    Sylectra Darwin: Wol, agreed!
    Sylectra Darwin: Yes, Maxine.
    Neela Blaisdale: Actualy I worry about that for my kids, not sure they know how to do it any other way
    Pema Pera: it may be creativity that suffers most
    Pema Pera: no time to really focus and think
    Maxine Walden: agree, Pema
    Sylectra Darwin: Speaking for myself, I can do really quality work when I shut out the digital distractions such as texting and e-mail.
    Pema Pera: yes, Neela, that's a scary thought
    quen Oh: well in fact I like the fact to have constant internet access if I want to know something, which is quite often... only not so much the expectations of people sending you emails 24/7 and want them answered
    Wol Euler: I've taught my customers that I read e-mail three times a day. Nothing is more urgent than that.
    Maxine Walden: for me creativity takes time and space and sometimes we have to work to achieve that
    Sylectra Darwin: Wol, that's great. Can I borrow that?
    Wol Euler: please do :)
    Maxine Walden: We are wishing to me master, not slave to our media input
    Maxine Walden: to be master
    Pema Pera: The main problem for me with work related email is that if I don't answer right away, chances are that someone else answers for me, attempting to guess what I would have said, to keep the process rolling -- and then I have to spend more time to undo the small (or not so small) errors . . . . .
    Sylectra Darwin: Pema, I know exactly what you mean.
    Maxine Walden: ah, interesting problem, Pema
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that is a process of teaching.
    quen Oh: perhaps you have to communicate that Pema? and than stick to some answer schedule as Wol does?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    quen Oh: than you have more peace perhaps because they count it in?
    Maxine Walden: so patience might be another thing to teach, to teach our correspondents
    Sylectra Darwin: Maxine, ha ha! I am not sure that's possible in Web Content with every member of the staff as a customer.
    Pema Pera: I have been brainstorming with a friend of mine, Ed Lu, ex astronaut, now at Google, how to solve that. One option is to have a delay loop: a Google group in which each message takes 24 hours to arrive; but few people would want to do that, I'm afraid
    Sylectra Darwin: I suspect the problem is that we routinely beat our 3-day guarantee which gets everyone spoiled. So maybe it is a matter of teaching them. :)
    quen Oh: that can be frustrating when other people start to think for you
    Maxine Walden: We seem to expect instant responses because the internet allows that. But the expectation of instant response really can be enslaving
    Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wb
    Wol Euler: ty
    Maxine Walden: and that really degrades the quality of life for us all
    quen Oh: why not have some question hour once a day, and 2 times where you react to emails?
    Pema Pera: Well, if 50% of the people can be taught, the other 50% are likely to take advantage by bullying the delayed 50% . . . .
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs
    Pema Pera: unless there is a huge upraising
    Pema Pera: uprising
    Pema Pera: and that may well happen soon
    Sylectra Darwin: Pema, yes, that does happen in fact, LOL
    Neela Blaisdale: Like what Pema?
    Pema Pera: I've seen it many times too, Syl
    Maxine Walden: tyranny comes in many forms
    Sylectra Darwin: The old "take a number" adage is a good fall back though rather beaurocratic.
    quen Oh: I had something like that at my old office, because at the end I could not work for 5 minutes without being called or visited by a collegue with problems and questions...
    Adams Rubble: I don't read my work email account anymore on wekends or evenings
    quen Oh: some problems disappear when people cannot immediately have you around for an answer I noticed.. than they suddenly are able to figure it out themselves
    Wol Euler cheers Adams
    Pema Pera: (others pushing their own agenda if I don't block it fast enough, Neela)
    Neela Blaisdale: It's helpful in many situations to "set limits"- work, kids,etc
    Sylectra Darwin: Way to go, Quen
    Maxine Walden: questions and concerns do seem to blot out the factor of time, as if it must be responsed to instantly. It may b e our task to set limits, yes, agree, Neela
    Pema Pera: yes, you can do that Adams, as long as there is no danger that others will kidnap your projects . . . .
    Sylectra Darwin: There's actually a script you can employ to deal with workplace interruptions caused by those who stop by or call when you are working on another project.
    Pema Pera: it is 11 pm, do you know what is happening to your project?
    Wol Euler: oooh
    Adams Rubble: They can have them Pema :)
    Sylectra Darwin: ...or go around the Web Content department, lol
    quen Oh: funny it seems to be a problem of anyone, typical of our time
    Maxine Walden: Pema, had not considered that one's projects could be kidnapped...
    quen Oh: we apparently have all the technology to cooperate effective, but we are still learning how to do that in an agreable and efficient
    quen Oh: way
    Wol Euler: hello fael
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fael :)
    Neela Blaisdale: Haven't yet evolved manners to equal out technology
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi Fael.
    Geo Netizen: Hi Fael
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Fael
    Sylectra Darwin: If only everyone could take a 9-second moment...
    Adams Rubble is fortunate to work with people technologically challenged
    Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone
    Maxine Walden: sort of intellectual property thieves?
    Pema Pera: life has become like a 24-hour board meeting, and when some are not present, others are tempted to make decisions that the ones not present may not like, Maxine
    Pema Pera: Hi Fael!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
    quen Oh: hey Fael!
    Maxine Walden: I see, thanks, Pema, understand better I think
    Sylectra Darwin: Corporate fun and games, especially surrounding meetings.
    Fael Illyar is almost ready to leave for airport.
    Adams Rubble: Best wishes for a good flight Fael :)
    Neela Blaisdale: sounds like a board discussion about this might be helpful Pema, I suspect others there may feel as you do
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmmm...
    Maxine Walden: oh, Fael, wish you a good journey
    quen Oh: perhaps this is an issue that needs to be discussed at your place Pema, it seems to undermine the trust in organisation and people.. if you are not online and attentive you miss out, thats not good
    Geo Netizen: Save travels Fael
    Pema Pera: it's not one board, Neela, it's all of work networks . . . .
    Pema Pera: it's life!
    Wol Euler: best wishes, fael, have a good flight.
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi Nostrum!
    Pema Pera: Hi there Nostrum
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Nos
    Wol Euler: and welcome Nostrum.
    Fael Illyar: (note, I don't need to leave for a couple of hours stil)
    Nostrum Forder: Good moning, everyone.
    Sylectra Darwin: No Fael you have to go now that we've wished you well (wink)
    Geo Netizen: Hi Nostrum
    Wol Euler: welcome to the club ;)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Nostrum
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    quen Oh: hello Nostrum
    Moon Fargis: have a good flight fael!
    Maxine Walden: But, Pema, the threat of hijacking if one is not present must be very draining, must be some way to establish more trust
    Moon Fargis: nice colors btw :)
    Pema Pera: it's present everywhere, Maxine, and often it is not done consciously
    Pema Pera: in almost any group I know, those who have their fingers on the email trigger have more influence
    Pema Pera: can bring up more ideas, subtly swaying others
    Pema Pera: bending things in their direction
    Maxine Walden: hmmm, perhaps I am naive about this aspect of things...something to think about
    Pema Pera: and if someone else with more sane ideas comes 24 hours later, it is way to late to go back
    quen Oh: even with best intentions, its difficult for people to realise there are other perspectives than your own.. which you are so used to..
    Pema Pera: since the discussion has proceeded on a different track
    Pema Pera: How many of you have had that experience?
    Neela Blaisdale: No way to slow it down Pema?
    Wol Euler: rather like this very meeting :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Pema, what experience, can you clarify for Nos?
    Pema Pera: how so Wol?
    Neela Blaisdale: But I was just thinking it's too bad you can't use these meetings as a template, everyone shares
    quen Oh: in projects I try to leave decisions to specific times and meetings, so ideas can be traded, but decisions need to be taken in the meetings, when all are present... otherwise you send everyone a copy of an idea on which they can respond in a normal time (more than a day)
    Wol Euler smiles. Only that the guardians meeting convened to discuss PaB is discussing RL interuption
    quen Oh: exactly to avoid what you described Pema
    Sylectra Darwin: Everyone shares at our director meetings where I worked, too, but somehow the directors found ways to short circuit the process after the fact. It was amazing.
    Wol Euler: (a sideine, sorry)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: well, maybe the 9 sec idea itself was born in the pressure cooker of all that we are now describing - so perhaps it led to something good!
    Wol Euler nods
    Maxine Walden: but maybe the discussion today is not just RL interruption but also something that goes on as part of our inner life. Our many inner voices compete for dominance
    quen Oh: it's a common experience for most working in groups or organisations I think...
    Nostrum Forder giggles a bit, thinking of the "none of us is as dumb as all of us" poster at work.
    Pema Pera: :>)
    Sylectra Darwin: grin
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Pema Pera: I want that poster!
    quen Oh: lol
    Sylectra Darwin: Oooh, Maxine, NICE transition!
    Nostrum Forder: I think it's from Despair.com, Pema.
    Pema Pera: how to translate that in PaB terms?
    Pema Pera: none of us is as gentle as all of us?
    Maxine Walden: our many inner voices can make us muddle-headed
    Adams Rubble: yes maxine
    Maxine Walden: when there is time and space for each inner voice to be heard and thought about then we can be clearer, sort of an inner discourse is possible
    Adams Rubble: and beautiful thought about the gentle Pema
    Neela Blaisdale: :) that's why this group works, we're gentle with each other
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes, very.
    Fael Illyar: stupidity mostly comes from attachments and since the way to avoid fights is t let othes keep their attachments ... a group could end up being more stupid than any member :)
    Pema Pera: or as a group find a way to transcend the attitude focusing on problems
    Nostrum Forder: Everything achieved by concensus is in a sense a compromise. Compromise is only acceptable to the extent that one sets one's self aside.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I was thinking too....
    Wol Euler: I find it interesting that "compromise" has come to be a negative thing, meaning that everyone loses.
    Pema Pera: there is a third way: not sticking to attachements, not trying to get rid of them, but allowing them gently, in oneself as well as in others
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what if some ideas/projects get hijacked.....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: might that be...well....good?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: once in a while?
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Adams Rubble: If one's projects involve lots of work and no glory no one will want to touch them
    Nostrum Forder: OK, now I'm thinking of Bill Hick's routine: "I'm hijacking this plane... to its scheduled destination."
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm
    Wol Euler sighs. Poor Bill, RIP
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah..then one gets stuck with only those.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and all the pretty ones walk away.
    quen Oh: what you perhaps want is not a "compromise" in which everyone is attached to a little of a solution like you otherwise offend someone, but more you want "consensus" about what seems to be evidently the best plan for the whole
    Geo Netizen: Yes ... I was thinking consensus too
    quen Oh: we have become political in groups, over the point to where it is effective, it seems personal attachment is too overrespected; matter or problems somehow have become politics instead of challenges which can be tackled or handled in a recognisable optimal way
    Maxine Walden: Maybe we are talking about outer attachments such a projects, etc. I find that when I proceed with trust that even when my ideas are hijacked as it were it works out so much better to just 'let it be' as if a higher, wider realtiy can then occur
    Wol Euler: well said, Masine
    quen Oh: I have had several discussions about this subject with my students trying to design in groups or duos...
    quen Oh: indeed Maxine, sooner or later you will be asked to contribute again, as you are being fruitful...
    Maxine Walden: when I am too protective/possessive of my ideas I am controlling things too much; thoughts are not to be possessed, but shared...it just works out more creatively in most cases in my experience
    quen Oh smiles and agrees
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: yes, projects and ideas are like all identifications, to be worn lightly :)
    Geo Netizen: Two words then …. Consensus and collaboration !
    Maxine Walden: agree entirely, Pema
    quen Oh: think so too Pema
    Nostrum Forder: I like what you said, Maxine, but I struggle in my vocation at times because I find myself in situations where trust is abused.
    Nostrum Forder: But perhaps that's another topic.
    Maxine Walden: oh, Nostrum?
    Sylectra Darwin: I am new to the idea of organizing people around a common goal, but one small thing I have learned is that people won't go around you if you find a way to work collaboratively with them outside of meeting time, you know, to put in some hours of face-to-face work time toward the common goal. I think humans are wired to "pack up" when we feel we are on the journey together. Meetings don't evoke those feelings enough, in my opinion.
    quen Oh: if everybody would take things ligthly you wouldn't have the trust problem, as we are convinced all handle in the interest of the group
    quen Oh: it would be sharing, not protecting your individual attachments and territory
    Wol Euler: the root problem is that "success" is seen as a zero-sum game. My promotion depends on you not being promoted.
    Wol Euler: in many companies, _still_ that is the way the ladder works.
    Maxine Walden: that atmosphere of working a a group rather than excelling as an individual
    quen Oh: competition is deadly for good cooperation! it is crazy how important that has become in everything
    Nostrum Forder: Well, put briefly, I've discovered that in my situation, those of us who function within the framework arrived at by concensus are at the mercy of those who are willing to ignore the framework.
    Wol Euler: yep
    Sylectra Darwin: Maxine, yes, how the founders set up the organization's power structure makes a big difference in how the participants interact to get things done.
    quen Oh: it's the most difficult myth I think we have now, that competition magically works out for the good of all of us
    Wol Euler nods.
    Geo Netizen nods
    Sylectra Darwin: In my supervisors seminar, one suggestion was to give everyone a bonus or reward of the same amount if the entire company reached a specific goal, not allowing anyone to stand out over others.
    quen Oh: not only in project and group cooperation, even on world economic level it tends to be proven wrong now...
    Maxine Walden: yes, and it may be that the leaders/founders need to keep the atmosphere of cooperation tended to, to keep the zeal of the individual contained
    Moon Fargis: sangha
    Nostrum Forder: Syl, it's also complicated because a power structure isn't always a conscious invention. A lot of the time, the "real" power structure evolves as the organization grows.
    Neela Blaisdale: well, they have to set the example
    Maxine Walden: yes, Quen, I was thinking of the current economic stuation and the upcoming US election in this regard
    Nostrum Forder: Look at Apple, or Microsoft. Kids in a garage playing with circuit boards.
    Neela Blaisdale: and look at how Gates gives back, amazing
    Moon Fargis: yes with windows.. thank you bill!
    Moon Fargis giggles and presses the format C: button
    Maxine Walden: the Gates Foundation does seem to be on the right track
    Neela Blaisdale: and Buffet too
    Geo Netizen nods
    Nostrum Forder: yes, it is... but I'm thinking more that those organizations have very different power structures today than they did at their inception.
    Maxine Walden: indeed
    Wol Euler: oh yes
    Wol Euler: well, they _have_ power structures now :)
    Sylectra Darwin: All groups of people eventually organize into political units with power structures.
    Wol Euler: and that calcifies their thinking. Why did Microsoft's 50,000 emploees and billion-dollar research budget not see Netscape coming, or Google?
    Sylectra Darwin: Maybe it's a people-centered aspect of entropy....?
    Nostrum Forder: Eventually? I think there's a power structure involved in any interaction of people.
    Sylectra Darwin: Wol, I like that - calcifies their thinking.
    Maxine Walden: an institution seems to lose touch with the appreciation of the human aspect needed for cooperation. But maybe awareness that this can happen, attentiveness to this dehumanizing qualitiy can make a difference
    Sylectra Darwin: Well, true, Nos. :)
    quen Oh: power structure often becomes the target of a group instead of a means
    Neela Blaisdale: not here though
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's like we were talking about about useful assumptions the other day
    Sylectra Darwin: I have noticed this with groups of friends that get larger than three people. Each new person changes the mix a little bit.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: calcifiying means much is easier.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but we are less agile.
    Nostrum Forder: My point is that Gates and Balmer, or Woz and Jobs, when they start out, their structures are egalitarian...
    Wol Euler: exactly.
    Nostrum Forder: but at some point, it evolves away from that. Not because the founders intend it, but because interests shift and situations change.
    quen Oh: it's complicated matter... the only power structure that seems to be working is the one in which everybody lightly serves for the benefit of all, and where consensus based on recognisable good direction is reached
    Moon Fargis: well..as larger they grow... as harder it will be to see whats in the back of them
    quen Oh: but that is probably wishful dreaming, lightyears away from us
    Moon Fargis: ohh already 9, i have to go, bye everyone
    quen Oh: bye Moon
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Moonbear
    Sylectra Darwin: Bye Moon
    Geo Netizen: Bye Moon
    Nostrum Forder: Nive to meet you, moonbear
    Wol Euler: ye moon
    Sylectra Darwin: Now I see how a study of national political systems would be relevant to the boardroom :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, for me the issue may be trying to keep the human vs the slippage into the inhuman power-based situation...and it takes constant attention to protect the human element
    Sylectra Darwin: should have read my history more.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: There are really two quite different problems: how to deal with miscommunication between well-intentioned people (which can lead to terrible consequences already easily!) and how to deal with individuals who really do have self-centered intentions . . . different solutions may be called for . . . and yet, the two problems also can blend into each other, since individuals can slowly start slipping into (or out of) more and more ego-centric habits . . . it is very complex!
    Sylectra Darwin: If you can get good at that, you can lead entire companies.
    Neela Blaisdale: at what specifically Syl?
    quen Oh: I really think it's a myth that any competitive system or force can serve human values.. it will only serve what it's designed for
    quen Oh nods, it's very very complex
    Sylectra Darwin: Neela, if you can get good at keeping your staff members aware of the common goals and how they fit into it and must work together towards it, and cultivate an atmosphere of cooperation and mutual respect, you can do very well leading almost any company.
    quen Oh nods, think so too Syl
    Nostrum Forder: What about companies like Linden Labs?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think that Pema's really on to something....
    Nostrum Forder: Where the goals are developed organically.
    Sylectra Darwin: Interesting question, Nos, can you elaborate?
    Nostrum Forder: LL doens't have specific task assignments. Each person is expected to come up with their own plan for contributing.
    Wol Euler: wow
    Nostrum Forder: Performance is judged on how well one achives one's own objectives, rather than meeting some external standard.
    Pema Pera: (does that explain why maintenance problems like lag remain while all kind of novelties are being developed??)
    Sylectra Darwin: Torley Linden for example has a mission statement on his online resume - "I amplify your awesome"
    Wol Euler: heheheheheh, quite possibly it does Pema.
    Nostrum Forder: Supervision is focused on guidance rather than being overtly directive.
    Nostrum Forder: Actually, Pema...
    quen Oh: or how to make the group intention always supersede the personal self- or well meant intentions... and how to make clear when things go in the wrong direction...
    Sylectra Darwin: And how they are hiring like crazy but still need about the same number of people all the time - takes their hiring managers forever to follow up.
    Nostrum Forder: I've made that exact comment to both Jack and Phillip Linden. :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Geo Netizen: The organization must be structured so that rewards are earned for collaboration and consensus. If not, no how much a group leader will try, the members will be motivated towards what is rewarded …. Competition and zero sum if that’s the case.
    Sylectra Darwin: Even Pathfinder has acknowledged that they are way behind in organizational stuff like hiring.
    Sylectra Darwin: Geo, excellent summation.
    Geo Netizen nods
    Nostrum Forder: LL's philosophy is interesting: http://lindenlab.com/about/tao
    Pema Pera: very interesting discussion, in quite unexpected directions -- thank you all! I'll have to get back to RL, but if you'd like to continue please add the rest of the transcript to the wiki after I put this piece up
    Pema Pera: see you all soon again
    Geo Netizen: Bye Pema .... always nice to have you at the discussions.
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Pema
    quen Oh: bye Pema
    Wol Euler: bye pema, nice to see you again.
    Adams Rubble: Bye Pema. I must go too. bye everyne :)
    Wol Euler: and bye adams, take care
    quen Oh: and bye Adams too
    Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Pema, Adams.
    Fael Illyar waves to Adams.
    Geo Netizen: Bye Adams ...
    Nostrum Forder: Speaking of working toward a common objective, I think it's time for me to marshal the kids to get their laundry folded.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    quen Oh: complex problems here today
    Geo Netizen laughs
    quen Oh: hehe succes Nostrum
    Sylectra Darwin: OK, Nos, have a good day :)
    Neela Blaisdale: limits for the comon good!
    Nostrum Forder: Parenting is like herding cats. You survive it only by being able to laugh at how riddiculous you look attempting it.
    quen Oh: well I have to go too, nice seeing you all back again
    Neela Blaisdale: lol
    Sylectra Darwin: lol
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Quen
    Wol Euler: yes, nos.
    quen Oh: hehe laughing at oneself is the best way ;-)
    Wol Euler: bye quen, take care
    Fael Illyar: See you later everyone :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
    Geo Netizen: bye quen
    quen Oh: bye bye
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Quen, Fael!
    Maxine Walden: Wondering whether to mention this but will just to have it part of our discussion...I was thinking that there seems to be in human beings a tendency to slip away from the humane and toward the more power-based, zealous, possessive position. It takes work, constant work to keep the human values in the forfront, seems to be human nature to slip away from them
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Fael, good trip
    Maxine Walden: bye Fael
    Geo Netizen: bye Fael
    Sylectra Darwin: Bye Fael, good journey
    Sylectra Darwin: Maxine, yes.
    Geo Netizen: Safe travels
    Sylectra Darwin: I wonder how this can be cultivated on a routine basis in large companies.
    Wol Euler: bye fael, safe journey and a short jetlag.
    Neela Blaisdale: I think Maxine it depends on what's going on around them
    Geo Netizen: Tis easy to become very self-centered.
    Fael Illyar: Thank you :)
    Fael Illyar waves.
    Neela Blaisdale: when people are scared or wanting, being self centered is natural
    Sylectra Darwin: I guess if I were forced into the unenviable position of leading a company I would want to surround myself with co-leaders who understood the vision and were committed to the people in the process rather than the political power.
    Neela Blaisdale: so I think some of the solution is in helpig to give people what is needed
    Geo Netizen: or greedy or Jealous or a number of other things
    Maxine Walden: but it seems to me that when we get tired or pre-occupied it is hard to remain open, spacious and compassionate; we close down some, so to me it is a human parblem, to grapple with slipping into the less humane position
    Geo Netizen nods
    Neela Blaisdale: yes but then it seems first we need rest or whatever
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: must go all...hating it cause this is so brilliant.
    Sylectra Darwin: From the microcosm to the macrocosm.. from my experience leading two department members perhaps the lesson I can take is that people want and need recognition and a useful role in the company, and equally important is for them to know how their role plays into the company's vision for the future.
    Geo Netizen: bye Corvi
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Corvi
    Maxine Walden: And maintaining our own self respect, is key in being able to maintain the attention needed to keep the human element portected
    Nostrum Forder: Well, as fascinating as all this is, apparently there's a socks-and-undies battle in the living room that I need to supervise, so I'll take my leave. Nice to meet you all.
    Sylectra Darwin: I hope I don't sound like I am uttering corporate bullsh*t. I don't mean to sound like that.
    Wol Euler: lol
    Sylectra Darwin: haha, Nos
    Wol Euler: bye nostrum, take care.
    Nostrum Forder waves.
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Nos
    Sylectra Darwin: see you. :)
    Wol Euler: actualy, that is not far from my RL either...
    Geo Netizen waves
    Geo Netizen: I've got to change the laundry too . must be laundry day :)
    Wol Euler: sunday...
    Neela Blaisdale: or cooking,
    Maxine Walden: maybe this discussion can continue as RL seems to be tugging at us all. Interesting discussion
    Geo Netizen: got to to that too soon
    Wol Euler: agree, that would be good.
    Geo Netizen: Bye all .... another excellent discussion.!!
    Sylectra Darwin: I have a project I need to get back to, but this was a pleasure!
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes great
    Wol Euler: bye all, thans for teh talk.
    Wol Euler: enjoy the rest of your sundays.
    Sylectra Darwin: grins
    Neela Blaisdale: you too Wol
    Maxine Walden: I will go as well, not so much laundry as garden stuff calling (if plants have an audible voice)
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, have a good rest of the weekend, all
    Wol Euler: bye!
    Neela Blaisdale: you too Maxine
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Wol and Syl
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