2008.10.31 19:00 - Appreciating the Presence of Depression as a Presentation by Being

 

The GoC was Adelene, and the comments are hers. 

 

I had been waiting at the pavilion for a while before the meeting, but First Life intruded just as the meeting started, so I was less than present until 19:10. Threedee was waiting when I got to the meeting. He was a nautilus, and I was a pumpkin.

Adelene Dawner: Sorry, RL was being intrusive.
Threedee Shepherd: k
Adelene Dawner: Gee, slow night tonight.

Just then, Corvi arrived.

Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins, laughs
Corvuscorva Nightfire: you two!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: wonderful!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I hope there's pictures?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: too good to miss
Adelene Dawner: Not yet
Adelene Dawner: Can you look at Three, Corvi?

Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes...of course!
Adelene Dawner: So, what's up, guys?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm building..hadn't done much of it before...so I'm finding it fun.
Adelene Dawner: Cool ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: really just putting platforms down...but I had fun doing it.
Threedee Shepherd: What are you building?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: stuff on the guardian plot
Corvuscorva Nightfire: decks
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: really nothing..just for fun.
Adelene Dawner: When you want something scripted, let me know ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins, k.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: will do
Threedee Shepherd: Isn't that what all of this is, just for fun ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh yeah
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Fun and. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks that THIS is fun.
Adelene Dawner: Yup ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: you have decorated wonderfully.
Adelene Dawner: Thanks ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Adelene...I need crows!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I was going to ask you...where to find some like those up there?
Adelene Dawner: Grendel's has them - they have a 'home decorating' section now ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oho!
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire rubs her hands together in anticipation
Adelene Dawner: It's small, mind. But neat. They have trees ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I found a spot where Storm had already put a bunch of trees..he made a beautiful swamp.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: what have you two been up to?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thinking about?
Adelene Dawner: You mentioned - I'll have to come see, sometime. ^.^
Adelene Dawner: I've been thinking more about depression, actually.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: me too
Adelene Dawner: I think we were right that it's protective and I have stuff to say about a potential mechanism.
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: http://crowsshinythings.blogspot.com/
Corvuscorva Nightfire: you got further than me, then
Corvuscorva Nightfire: tell me more!
Adelene Dawner: My experience has been that when I become depressed, pre-existing goals still get worked on, regardless of emotional state, but new goals just don't form. That tracks with your 'kept me from doing anything', Three.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, considering
Threedee Shepherd: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mostly that's been true for me, too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: though i realized I was talking about two things
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 1) what happens right after a big trauma
Adelene Dawner: So it seems like depression is 'supposed to be' a temporary state that allows one to hold onto a goal through an emotionally turbulent time without getting 'knocked off course' by the emotions that would usually cause one to form new goals.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 2) what happens after little traumas
Corvuscorva Nightfire nos.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh!
Threedee Shepherd: so, is there more to say about the links between depression and motivation
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nice!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes, I think there is...hmm
Adelene Dawner: Well, there does seem to be one, Three.
Adelene Dawner: My question was more, is there a known link between emotion and motivation? (And, as I ask that, I remember that I've already answered that question with 'yes' - remember when I talked about the purpose of anger? - but came to it from a different direction, which is why I didn't remember it immediately)
Threedee Shepherd: interesting that the literature that first comes to mind links choosing to do things witgh pleasure centers in the brain. I need to go have a look...
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It helps to take remembering slow...to chew on one little bit at a time, if one tried to remember it all, with all the helplessness one feels in the event, all at one time, one would truly despair, and the idea of suicide would seem pretty reasonable.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: this is from my blog
Adelene Dawner: That seems very very relevant, yes. Isn't depression pretty much a lack of activation of those pleasure centers?
Threedee Shepherd: in part
Adelene Dawner nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I know you two are talking about method
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and I am thinking about "why"
Adelene Dawner: If my theory is right, Corvi, the depressed state would actually help oppose that despair.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: exactly
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and keep you from acting if you did
Adelene Dawner: Yup. It blocks the tendency to make a new goal - and 'commit suicide' is an example of a goal.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but more than that
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it can keep you from acting on old goals if it's intense enough
Adelene Dawner: ?
Adelene Dawner: ah, hmm...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am thinking about just post big trauma
Adelene Dawner: We're wandering into teritory I'm unfamiliar with, perhaps.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: My, um, map of this territory goes something like this:
Adelene Dawner: Most people would have some kind of warning of a big trauma... or, perhaps, people don't go into depressed-state immediately on experiencing a sudden trauma.
Corvuscorva Nightfire considers
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think there is something else that happens JUST after a big trauma
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that is more intense than what we started the discussion with
Adelene Dawner: At any rate, shortly before the depression sets in, a few goals - probably only one - are set, to the tune of “what do I need to be doing to get back to 'stable'?”
Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe that's the difference between "depression" and "PTSD"
Adelene Dawner: That goal is retained in the depressed state, all others, new or old, ar blocked.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: cause I think PTSD doesn't start there
Adelene Dawner: Yup, PTSD is something entirely different.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I mean
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes and no
Corvuscorva Nightfire: depression is itself
Corvuscorva Nightfire gets confused and shuts up to consider what she is trying to say
Adelene Dawner: PTSD can interact with or perhaps even cause depression, but they're not the same and one can occur without the other.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts
Corvuscorva Nightfire: exactly
Adelene Dawner: different but not mutually exclusive.
Adelene Dawner wonders if we have lost Three.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: to books
Corvuscorva Nightfire: he's looking up something
Adelene Dawner: mm.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok...back to what you said..goal 1
Corvuscorva Nightfire: how to get out of this
Adelene Dawner: PTSD is another topic entirely, I think, but worth talking about sometime.
Adelene Dawner: Anyway, goals...
Adelene Dawner: so when you're depressed, in a natural 'how it's supposed to work' sense, there's the one goal, and the depression keeps you on track to that one goal.
Adelene Dawner: The intention of that pattern is that by the time you get to that goal, you won't have any reason to be depressed any more, and you won't be in the state at all.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: Or at least that getting to the situation and staying there a while (due to lack of other goals) will allow the depression to lift.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: there is a stumbling block in it, too, that many of us trip over.
Adelene Dawner: oh?

Mongo arrived.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: there is a point where one can get stuck in a loop
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks, having looped that loop for a while in her life.
Adelene Dawner: Mmhmm.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Mongo
Corvuscorva Nightfire: The state itself can become seductive..I'm going to have to talk metaphorically til I get to the meat
Adelene Dawner listens.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think there was a time when I was afraid to get out
Corvuscorva Nightfire ponders.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: urk
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Mongo, we're discussing depression, specifically the purpose of it.
Mongo McGinnis: Hi just Walked the Demonically Pocessed Beagle ;-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs
Mongo McGinnis: ok
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so..the "plan
Corvuscorva Nightfire: is that it's temporary
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it can become rather the default state
Adelene Dawner: mmmm...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: then...it does not seem protective, but destructive
Adelene Dawner: 'temporary' doesn't mean that it can't be long-term.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it doesn't.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I don't think it is as helpful as a default state as it is, a short term state
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't think.
Adelene Dawner: As an example... I didn't know it at the time, but I was depressed for pretty much my entire teenagerhood.
Threedee Shepherd: Ade, as I try to recall my major depressive episodes of years ago, I do not get a sense that I was focused on *any* goal. Also, there was rarely a trigger event, just a constellation of stresses.
Adelene Dawner: I know, Three, I was getting there.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok, I'll stop sidetracking
Adelene Dawner: Anyway, when I first realized that I'd been depressed, I really did have a problem with that, thought it had been really negative.
Mongo McGinnis: I guess it could last for a trionith of a second or last a trion years it is temporary
Adelene Dawner: I now realize that in that case... well, it may not have been a good thing, but it was better than the alternative. In my case, depression blocks overload, and I'd probably be institutionalized by now if I'd been dealing with overload at that point of my life.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. like what 3D is describing.
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm considering traumatic events another kind of overload
Adelene Dawner reads back and tries to find the thread she was trying to follow.
Mongo McGinnis: i wish i could think in 4d
Adelene Dawner:
    [19:39] Adelene Dawner: so when you're depressed, in a natural 'how it's supposed to work' sense, there's the one goal, and the depression keeps you on track to that one goal.
    [19:40] Adelene Dawner: The intention of that pattern is that by the time you get to that goal, you won't have any reason to be depressed any more, and you won't be in the state at all.
    [19:41] Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    [19:41] Adelene Dawner: Or at least that getting to the situation and staying there a while (due to lack of other goals) will allow the depression to lift.
Adelene Dawner: Now, that's one way it can work out.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner sighs and pokes her brain. "I know you had more..."
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahah
Adelene Dawner: Ah.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: pokes at the pumkin'
Adelene Dawner: There was the 'more' - I think we all have ideas of 'how it's supposed to be' or 'what I need to have to be okay'. The goal I'm talking about is what we think we need to do to get into that 'having what I need to be okay' comfort zone.
Corvuscorva Nightfire frowns considering...what we need to do? or where we want to wind up?
Adelene Dawner: what situation do we want to be in... though it feels more like a need than a want.
Threedee Shepherd: More thoughts: One situation that led to depression was having specific responsibilities (for family, for example) and a sense of being overwhelmed and unable to accomplish what was needed to meet them.
Adelene Dawner: I don't 'need' a computer - I can survive without one. But you can bet that I'd consider it not-ok if I was put into a situation where I couldn't have computer access.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Lack of control
Adelene Dawner would like to finish her thoughtstream...
Threedee Shepherd: k
Corvuscorva Nightfire: k
Adelene Dawner: So there's things/situations that we think we need, correctly or not, to 'be okay'. The point of depression is to let us focus on a specific goal that will get us to those things, without getting sidetracked by an emotionally turbulent situation.
Adelene Dawner: Ok so far?
Adelene Dawner assumes that's a yes ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: no
Adelene Dawner: Where it gets bad is when we don't get to that goal of having the things we think we need.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh!
Adelene Dawner: hm, Three?
Threedee Shepherd: wait, getting words together
Corvuscorva Nightfire sighs into Adelene, cackling as she Groks it
Adelene Dawner: I know that your experience of depression involved not having a goal at all.
Adelene Dawner grins at Corvi.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: well tied up, Adelene.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: for me
Threedee Shepherd: Here is what I would have said out of a depressional state: I'm stressed, I have no idea what's really wrong. I can't solve my own problems. There is nothing I can do to help myself. someone come save me. I want to escape...
Adelene Dawner: Yes, I was getting there. The 'okay so far?' was another way of asking 'do you understand?'
Threedee Shepherd: add to that I'm worthless and nobody REALLY loves me
Threedee Shepherd: I understood, yes
Adelene Dawner: I keep saying 'one goal and no new goals' because that's important.
Adelene Dawner: When you're depressed, you have one shot, kind of (well, life's not that simple, I guess) of getting out of it yourself.
Adelene Dawner: If that one goal works, great.
Adelene Dawner: If not... well, you're still depressed, which means not getting to make any new goals.
Threedee Shepherd: ok
Adelene Dawner: Note: I'm talking about 'deep' goals, which are different from 'I'm going to decide to do this thing that I heard about for a while and see what happens'
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: And the thing is, goals are *important*.
Threedee Shepherd nods
Adelene Dawner: Not having a goal *is* being lost, whether you're depressed or not. You know I know that, Three, I have extensive experience there.
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: And what you described sounded a lot like being lost.
Threedee Shepherd: yes, that's a part of it
Adelene Dawner nods. "There's a depth and richness to the experience that doesn't quite come through in these descriptions. But I think I do have at least the outline right."
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think so, too...but I do feel there is something missing.
Adelene Dawner goes into visualization mode for a moment.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: control
Adelene Dawner: Control is relevant, yes.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 3d talked about feeling helpless
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I know I wanted more control
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and you talked about control as an issue
Threedee Shepherd: despair, heaviness, abandonment, and something I have not yet found words for
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..yes..those are right words for my experience, too
Threedee Shepherd: add hopelessness and a physical sensation I have no words for
Adelene Dawner: One thing that seems worth mentioning is that I'm describing one specific part of the pattern. There are other parts, too.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: the one that makes lifting one's arms a chore?
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: But they're not what I'd call 'depression' - related, yes, and perhaps even considered part of the same thing by the professionals, but they look separate to me.
Threedee Shepherd: I suspect there is a difference between "normal" situational depression that most people have on occasion, versus the negative spiral of prolonged deptression. they may even be different in kind.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think we can divide "depression æup into alot of little bits.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: what is called depression...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..there are some similarities whcih is why they get lumped.
Adelene Dawner: There are definitely functional differences, yes. I suspect that you went through the part of this that I was describing as 'how it's supposed to work' very very young if at all, Three.. and the later part would definitely take on a life of its own after a while.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think all the things we are calling depression include an element of feeling a lack of control over events.
Adelene Dawner: Well, being in control is one of those things that most people think they have to have in order to be okay.
Adelene Dawner: (In fact it may be *the* thing)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think it might be.
Adelene Dawner: So that's probably more of a cause than an effect.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and a way to get out
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or not
Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, control is such an over-riding issue that it may overwhelm a discussion of "just" depression.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. ok
Threedee Shepherd: Another word that comes to mind is "safe" as in I want to feel safe. That can be accomplished by having someone lovingly take care of me.
Threedee Shepherd: The situation is then in control, even if I am not
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: control and safe are very closely entwined concepts.
Threedee Shepherd: As in "I want A mommy!"
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.

Mongo left silently as PaddyMetru Wirefly joined us, and the conversation turned to more mundane topics.

Threedee Shepherd: Upon reflection, the large number of words that are used in *describing* depression suggests that it is perhaps a broad spectrum, and/or perhaps not only one thing.
PaddyMetru Wirefly: Um, hi?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm pretty sure that's true.
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Paddy.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Paddy
PaddyMetru Wirefly: I'd been here earlier today so I came to check
Adelene Dawner: Ah :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: have you been to a meeting yet?
PaddyMetru Wirefly: One
Adelene Dawner: You can join us for the res of this one, if you'd like, but we're kind of winding down.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
PaddyMetru Wirefly: ... Cuttlefish? This game does have everything, wow...
Threedee Shepherd: Nautilus ^.^
PaddyMetru Wirefly: It's ok, I was just hoping for a good conversation anyway
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm fond of Cuttlefish
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like the way they talk
PaddyMetru Wirefly: How?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: colors
Corvuscorva Nightfire: they use color to communicate
PaddyMetru Wirefly: Oh
PaddyMetru Wirefly: I have kitty ears :3
Threedee Shepherd: Yes cuttlefish and their "relatives" do that
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Cuttle fish seem to do it in a group, more than their relatives
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and seem to hve more to say in that medium
Corvuscorva Nightfire: at least, that's what I observed in one zoo.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nice ears, Paddy
PaddyMetru Wirefly: There I go, starting up a conversation that's completely irrelevant
PaddyMetru Wirefly: Thanks
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..I'm pretty sure I started that.
Threedee Shepherd: all conversations here are irrelevant, or perhaps all conversations here are absolutely relevant. It' of no matter ;D
PaddyMetru Wirefly: Good because random is fun
Threedee Shepherd: What brought you to SL Paddy?
PaddyMetru Wirefly goes to check something out so he may be back
Corvuscorva Nightfire: k

Paddy left, and the three of us sat in silence for a few minutes.

Adelene Dawner: Well... nothing Three said seemed to conflict with my theory, really. (Or did I miss something?) Did either of you have any other ideas?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no, I think you are right
Threedee Shepherd: Except, perhaps, that when that *one goal* is lost sight of and depression becomes a looping negative spiral, it seems to take on either a deeper or different character.
Adelene Dawner: Mmhmm. It seems to intrinsically become a loop, when that one goal is lost or doesn't work.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Threedee Shepherd: at that point another word is "trapped"
Adelene Dawner: In fact it *may* take on a social signaling aspect at that point... Three, you'll have to comment here, I just don't know... but it seems like if the person is at a point where they can't get themselves out of a problem, that'd be a functional thing to have happen.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but....the ways out suggested rarely work.
Adelene Dawner nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and sometimes are detrimental to getting out
Corvuscorva Nightfire: other than..get up and walk.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: as 3D put it
Threedee Shepherd: Well there is a constellation of obvious, maladaptive behaviors, that others can recognize, but I am not sure they are *intentional* signals
Adelene Dawner: It's less about getting a good answer the first time, and more about keeping asking 'till you get an answer that works, I suggest.
Threedee Shepherd: Lack of a good answer---> lack of confidence ----. stoppiong of questinoing
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think you're right though, it IS a question.
Adelene Dawner: I didn't mean to imply that the signaling was intentional - in fact, if it *was* intentional, it probably wouldn't work as well.
Shenlei Flasheart is Offline
Adelene Dawner: Less 'questioning' and more 'asking for help'. In that post-goal phase, one would keep *instinctively* 'asking for help' via behavioral cues, essentially until the depression lifts.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: right
Threedee Shepherd: remember that depression is not only discomfort or pain, in some sense; it is also a lack of pleasure responses, so there are still conplications here that we may not have touched.
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: In fact I'd say it's more the lack of leasuer responses than it is discomfort or pain.
Adelene Dawner: *pleasure
Threedee Shepherd: Gee, (re Paddy) I wonder what someone new would think walking in on a pumpkin a nautilus and a human discussion depression? ^.^
Adelene Dawner: hehehe
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that they might want to explore Kira cafe?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: for a bit?
Threedee Shepherd: so, an interesting question is, what is it that is turning off (inhibiting) the pleasure circuits, and then I have another question
Threedee Shepherd: which is, right now, can we reframe this into a Being conversation, as in PaB?
Adelene Dawner chuckles at the first part of that question-set. "You're the neuroscience guy, how should we know?"
Threedee Shepherd: I already found a research paper on it that I will read latter ;)
Adelene Dawner: hehe
Adelene Dawner: You'll have to report back. ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: I will
Adelene Dawner: As to Being...
Threedee Shepherd: As if I could help doing so ;)
Adelene Dawner: It's easier to APAPB the hard stuff if you have more of a grasp of what there is to appreciate about it. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Adelene Dawner: (In fact, thic conversation *itself* is a form of APAPBing depression.)
Threedee Shepherd: Thinking back, it would have been useful to be able to say/know "I am Being" as opposte do I am a worthless jerk"
Threedee Shepherd: *opposed
Threedee Shepherd: *opposed to
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
Corvuscorva Nightfire: indeed
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: too, I think any way of looking at the world without judgement, noticing clearly is a way of walking out of depression
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it works as an exit strategy
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and from accounts, I hear that it works to avoid entry as well.
Threedee Shepherd: It would also have been useful to know that The Way that can be know is not the WAY. Aalthough if you heard that too soon, you could just give up.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: yup.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and knows it is way too soon for her to understand that one.
Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, you are right about judgement. However try to explain that to a testosterone poisoned young man.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's time for bed.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, smiles. Yeah
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Corvi. See you tomorrow ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 'night.
Threedee Shepherd: True, it appears to be East Coast bedtime. g'night. Remarkably that was NOT a depressing discussion about depression :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yep!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Corvi left, and Threedee and I left very shortly after that.