2008.11.19 13:00 - Trust and the homeless

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    The guardian for this session was Quilty Bookmite. The comments are his.

    When I arrived my radar was telling me that Wol was in chat range but I couldn't see her. 

    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Wol.
    Wol Euler: I'm being a gargoyle today...
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah. That explains why I can't see you.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: sitting on one of the roof beams

    Serafim was standing just outside the pavilion but didn't actually seem to be "there" throughout the chat.

    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Serafim

    I flew up and spotted Wol.

    Quilty Bookmite: Ah. found you.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Trying to stroke a guinea pig, eat toast and chat online at the same time. Not easy.
    Wol Euler: o.O
    Wol Euler: hehehehe
    Wol Euler: I read "smoke a guinea pig" at first.
    Quilty Bookmite: I need 1000 arms. :-)
    Wol Euler: like Shiva
    Quilty Bookmite: No, they taste terrible. :-)
    Wol Euler: (was it Shiva?)
    Wol Euler: boom boom
    Quilty Bookmite: Or Avalokitesvara. :-)
    Wol Euler: ah, yes, that one :)
    Wol Euler: ??
    Wol Euler: yes, the first roof is within listener range.
    Quilty Bookmite: Well, I'm going to be boring and conventional and sit down.
    Quilty Bookmite: Serafim, do you want to join us?
    Wol Euler: I think she#s AFK, hasn't moved or spoken in 10 minutes
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah. OK.
    Quilty Bookmite: We have met in the Kira cafe I think.
    Quilty Bookmite: So, how are you?
    Wol Euler: mmmm, okay. Somewhat tired and stressed. And yourself?
    Quilty Bookmite: Tired as usual, but not overly stressed.
    Wol Euler: sounds fair.
    Quilty Bookmite: Just been catching up on my chat logs. I have been getting a bit behind.
    Quilty Bookmite: I hope the recorder gets into full operation soon. The editing job on the logs is getting a bit much.

    The editing job is quite large partly due to the fact that I forget to switch my radar off during chats and have to edit out all its warnings. The PaB listener itself also adds to the task by inserting its own status updates.

    Quilty Bookmite: Not that that is a criticism. :-)
    Wol Euler nods agreement. I'm sorry that it is lagging so far behind my hopes.
    Wol Euler: Quilty, that is entirely fair and valid as a criticism.
    Quilty Bookmite: Wasn't meant as one.
    Quilty Bookmite: It's mostly my own stuff. RL is getting a bit busy at the moment.
    Wol Euler: We have missed every deadline we aimed at.
    Quilty Bookmite: That's what deadlines are for. :-)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Quilty Bookmite: Do you know about Agile development?
    Wol Euler: vaguely, I've heard the term
    Quilty Bookmite: It's what I don't do, although I hope to in the future.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development To be fair, we do have some Agile processes at work but we could do with more (or perhaps less processes in general).

    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Wol Euler flips open the Wikipedia
    Quilty Bookmite: It's a different approach to software development. Gets rid of things like project plans and too much documentation. :-)
    Wol Euler: well, that is pretty much what we ahve been doing: step by step, testing each bit, progressing only when ready.
    Quilty Bookmite: Still, it takes time and lots of expertise to get everyone used to it.
    Wol Euler: But we are now stuck, sadly.
    Quilty Bookmite: Better to do that than end up with loads of bugs.
    Quilty Bookmite: What is the sticking point?
    Wol Euler: the very last bit, automatically creating a blog page.
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah right. Does SL provide a good API for that sort of thing?
    Wol Euler: it all happens outside SL, there is an API for the Deki wiki software, but it's pretty obscure
    Quilty Bookmite: Obscure APIs are great fun. :-)
    Wol Euler nods sadly.
    Wol Euler: I think boredom is greatly underrated as an organizing principle.
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah boredom. I remember that. :-)

    Reminds me of the often quoted Chinese curse - "May you live in interesting times". What I always wondered about the curse is, unless the curser is about to die, they are cursing themselves to live in interesting times too. :-)

    Moon appears as some sort of teddy bear type thing.

    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Moon.
    Wol Euler: hello moon
    Wol Euler: nice to see you again
    Moon Fargis: ^^ same here ...
    Moon Fargis: so what is the actual topic ?
    Wol Euler: so far, the lack of autologging :(
    Quilty Bookmite: Just chatting about the listener software.
    Wol Euler: you are welcome to introduce someting more interesting.
    Quilty Bookmite: How's the library? I haven't been online enough to check it out properly.
    Moon Fargis: going on just finished the 4rd rooms 3d view
    Moon Fargis: 4th
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Gaya.
    Wol Euler: hello gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Gaya Ethaniel: Did the texture worked Moon?
    Moon Fargis: yep, but horizons at such skyboxess are always hard to make
    Gaya Ethaniel nods... guessed as much
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure it'd look better though as the texture is darker than the previous one you used
    Faenik: ah :)
    Moon Fargis: niiiice
    Moon Fargis: and i found an iccce tree
    Gaya Ethaniel: ice => nice ^^
    Wol Euler: a winter tree?
    Moon Fargis: yes it also had a winter version of it
    Moon Fargis: but also a summer version... looks cool :) used it also in the wintergarden now
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^ can't wait to see it
    Gaya Ethaniel: What's the thread?
    Moon Fargis: ^^
    Wol Euler: so far, this _is_ the thread :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Moon Fargis: not workingg atologger:)
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry. I should probably try and say something profound. :-)

    If a tree falls in the forest etc. etc....

    Moon is swimming about in the pool.

    Wol Euler tosses moon a bar of soap
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm... don't smash it Moon
    Moon Fargis splashes in the water
    Gaya Ethaniel: There is something I wanted to discuss... trust... which we did a bit yesterday if you remember Wol
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Quilty Bookmite: Want to carry on with it?
    Moon Fargis: ahh trust
    Moon Fargis: some magic word is often enought
    Moon Fargis: onigokko
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes you were there too Moon ^^
    Wol Euler: oh, no! mine fell off.
    Moon Fargis: amazing you wear it still :)
    Moon Fargis: stop
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
    Moon Fargis: *giggles*
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah. Most exercise I've had all day. :-)
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Wol Euler: I keep meaning to make a standard "wear this stuff always" folder to simplify getting dressed
    Wol Euler: and avoid being caught wihtout an
    Wol Euler: onigokko
    Quilty Bookmite: Good idea. I could put my radar in it.
    Wol Euler: and my AO...
    Wol Euler: but just can't get around to it somehow.
    Gaya Ethaniel: =^.^=
    Wol Euler: stop
    Quilty Bookmite: Trying to think what the music is.
    Quilty Bookmite: It's something classical.
    Wol Euler: william Tell overture
    Wol Euler: I think
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah! Yes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Western...
    Wol Euler: also known as the Lone Ranger Theme
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, sorry. Classical western.
    Wol Euler: so you were right too, gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
    Faenik: could be
    Moon Fargis: excuse me i have to go
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Moon.
    Gaya Ethaniel: See you later Moon ^^
    Moon Fargis: was nice to see all of you
    Wol Euler: oh, bye moon
    Wol Euler: not another emergency I hope
    Moon Fargis: noo :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Blue moon, you saw me standing alone...
    Wol Euler: hello solo
    Moon Fargis: onigokko
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Quilty Bookmite: stop
    Solobill Laville: I am never ready...
    Gaya Ethaniel: So... trust
    Wol Euler: a nice little farewell present
    Quilty Bookmite: Yeah. :-)
    Wol Euler adjusts her facial expression. Right.
    Gaya Ethaniel gets serious
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Solo
    Solobill Laville: Heya, Quilty!
    Quilty Bookmite: OK, trust.
    Solobill Laville thinks he is getting a "serious" reputation...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^__^
    Quilty Bookmite: Solo's here. Better look serious.
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Gaya Ethaniel tries to remember where we left before the money go-around
    Wol Euler smiles. that was fun.
    Quilty Bookmite: We were trying to get started on trust.
    Wol Euler: oh, by the way, I realized quite late that I was doing it wrong!
    Wol Euler: I was handing money on to other people rather than paying it back!
    Wol Euler: If I stiffed anyone, please accept my apologies. I'm going to go through my transactions and see what happened.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That was what I was doing also...
    Wol Euler: ah!

    There seems to be an experiment going on where someone gives someone else som SL dollars. I think the idea is to give them back but I'm not clear on it.

    Quilty Bookmite: What money?
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Wol Euler is getting old and silly. Weren't you there, quilty?
    Quilty Bookmite: I'm not sure.
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Fael.
    Wol Euler: hello fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Solo, Wol, Quilty, Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel taps her foot in mock impatience... trust people trust
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler lowers her eyes ashamedly.
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles silently
    Quilty Bookmite harrumphs.
    Solobill Laville: Touche'
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Fael!

    After several false starts, we finally get talking about trust.

    Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Do you want to start us off Gaya? What did you want to say about trust?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I felt it starts from oneself... though give and take...
    Gaya Ethaniel: But... thought I was doing it wrong when I listened to others yesterday
    Quilty Bookmite: If you give something do you expect something in return?
    Gaya Ethaniel: no... that's expectation... normally doesn't do any good
    Solobill Laville smiles at Quilty
    Gaya Ethaniel: give and take as two way process Quilty
    Quilty Bookmite: Not sure what to do with the money. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah. :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Wol Euler: me points to the wikipedia donation box
    Quilty Bookmite: Where?
    Wol Euler: well, "out there" in RL unfortunately.
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah. $100 SL don't go very far in RL.
    Wol Euler: true.
    Fael Illyar: well, it would if enough people gave it :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes.
    Wol Euler: well, in that case, just pass it on to the next deserving newb you meet :)
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar tends to give a small amount of money to newbies when she happens to help someone started.
    Quilty Bookmite: OK, the next newb to drop by gets $100 from me.

    It hasn't happened at the time I am entering this session but I hope it will soon.

    Wol Euler nods and smiles
    Quilty Bookmite: Good idea Fael.
    Solobill Laville: That won't freak then out at all... ;)
    Fael Illyar: I don't do that very often though :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Solobill Laville: So, trust...and how does that relate to other things?
    Fael Illyar: mostly with people who dare to talk to me :)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Quilty Bookmite: Not very many then Fael. :-)
    Fael Illyar: happens occasionally :)
    Quilty Bookmite: I imiagine you scare most of them off.
    Fael Illyar: well, can't help it :)
    Wol Euler admits to using it to reward good behaviour :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    Quilty Bookmite: We are diverting wldly from the topic. :-)

    Once again, back to trust.

    Wol Euler: perhaps we are discussing the distribution of trust?
    Quilty Bookmite: As opposed to the distribution of money?
    Quilty Bookmite: What does it mean to distribute trust?
    Wol Euler ponders.
    Solobill Laville: Perhaps in this case, it was indeed reflecting money as a symbol of trust...
    Solobill Laville: yet, to Wuilty's point, does $L100 really have much weight?
    Gaya Ethaniel: back
    Solobill Laville: *q, sorry...it's right next to the Q key you know
    Wol Euler grins
    Quilty Bookmite: Actually that raises an interesting point...
    Wol Euler: it's relative. It means a lot to a newbie
    Fael Illyar: well, not really much weight as such but ... you still don't give out 100L to just anyone :)
    Quilty Bookmite: In the town where I live there are quite a few beggars. I made a decision a while ago not to give them money. I guess I don;t trust them to spend it on something that is good for them.
    Solobill Laville: ahh
    Quilty Bookmite: I will buy the Big Issue though - a magazine sold by the homeless.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Wol Euler: sorry, my dears, Pema has just reminded me that this is German Evening. I must head to the Cafe to do my part.
    Quilty Bookmite: But... I used to regularly buy a big issue from a particular guy in town.
    Gaya Ethaniel: See you later Wol ^^
    Fael Illyar: See you later Wol :)
    Quilty Bookmite: OK. Bye Wol.
    Solobill Laville: gut nacht, Wol
    Wol Euler: enjoy the aftrnoon/evening, see you later on perhaps?
    Wol Euler: ciao, bill :)
    Quilty Bookmite: If I manage to stay up.
    Quilty Bookmite: Anyway, a couple of times when I bought a magazine off this guy he was completely out of it.
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Solobill Laville: mmmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: I assume he had the badge and all?
    Quilty Bookmite: And once he managed to convince me to just give him the money and he kept his last magazine,
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, he was badged.
    Solobill Laville: hmmm
    Quilty Bookmite: I didn't report him but I haven't bought from the guy since.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods...
    Quilty Bookmite: I felt he had betrayed my trust, but I also think I am being somewhat judgemental.
    Solobill Laville notes that he doesn't have badges in his country
    Gaya Ethaniel: How so?
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm... Solo?
    Fael Illyar: what's a badge in this case?
    Quilty Bookmite: Anyone who sells the Big Issue should carry a badge to show that they are an authentic seller.
    Quilty Bookmite: Not just someone who stole a pile of magazines off someone else.
    Solobill Laville: Thought the badge could also be stolen, i would guess
    Quilty Bookmite: They have a photo on.
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Solobill Laville: I think, hmmmm
    Solobill Laville: Could you give dontations straight to a shelter?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why do you think yourself being somewhat judgemental Quilty?
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, although I actually like the magazine. :-)
    Fael Illyar: Well, Moon's donation "box" certainly drew many donations :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: There is a homeless charity called Shelter and one can donate directly
    Solobill Laville: that is true
    Quilty Bookmite: I have judged the guy to be not worthy of my business.
    Fael Illyar: much more than Moon himself I'd think :)
    Solobill Laville: Did Moon have a badge??
    Solobill Laville: sorry
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yeah... had a candy colour teddy bear pic on it ^^
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Quilty Bookmite: In SL you can make yourself look like your badge photo. :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So you could have waited and given him another chance so to speak Quilty?
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Quilty Bookmite: I gave him one more chance but I know that he conned me, so it's partly my own fault.
    Fael Illyar: we only have limited money so we do need to decide somehow what to spend it on.
    Gaya Ethaniel is confused... so why feeling judgemental if it was a right decision?
    Quilty Bookmite: Good point Fael.
    Quilty Bookmite: I don't actually know how I feel about it. I think it was the right decision or I probably would have reversed it by now.
    Fael Illyar: we tend to use money where we feel it gets us the most ... whatever it is :(
    Quilty Bookmite: I do feel a bit awkward because I walk past him now and then but I don't know what to say to the guy.
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: So you feel guilty?
    Fael Illyar: well, aside from the money we need to spend to stay alive.
    Quilty Bookmite: I don;t think it is guilt. Just a sort of awkwardness. And maybe a little bit of anger.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Corvi!
    Quilty Bookmite: We used to buy sandwiches and coffee for him.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Corvi.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is it still in 'bad shape'? or was it one of slip off you think?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Corvi :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is he*
    Quilty Bookmite: I've seen him in bad shape a few times since.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Quilty Bookmite: And I know someone in social services who said he's been mixing with dealers.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods...
    Solobill Laville: What if the betrayal of trust didn't matter?
    Gaya Ethaniel nods...
    Quilty Bookmite: It's probably still the right thing to do. The betrayal just adds an overtone.
    Fael Illyar: It's also interesting that he might not have a choice but to mix with dealers because people no longer trust him.
    Quilty Bookmite: I don't want to feed a habit.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Solobill Laville: I'm sure the situation is not so simple as a few words imply...
    Solobill Laville: But a sandwich still goes a long way, perhaps... :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Of course, and there is more that I know about the situation, but I don't know very much at all.
    Quilty Bookmite: Good point.
    Quilty Bookmite: I guess I need to get beyond the anger for that. :-)
    Solobill Laville: Good point
    Fael Illyar has sometimes given beggars food.
    Solobill Laville: I imagine he has experienced suffering I could only imagine
    Gaya Ethaniel: Drug addiction is not easy to deal with I guess... especially if one is homeless with no emotional support from friends/family
    Quilty Bookmite: Indeed.
    Fael Illyar wouldn't consider giving money.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have a friend who is homeless.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I sometimes do give him money.
    Solobill Laville: But, that example speaks strongly to value of trust, and trust lost
    Quilty Bookmite: I agree Fael. I used to but rethought the whole thing.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Quilty Bookmite: Maybe you know what your friend will do with the money Corvi.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire shakes her head.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I know he drinks.
    Quilty Bookmite: How do you feel about it?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think about it alot, actually.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: about how it would feel to have no home.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and few choices.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and how I might WANT to drink.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: how that might feel better than being lonely and cold.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I just don't know.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I feel guilty that I don't help him more.
    Quilty Bookmite: No, and I don't know if it would feel better.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I don't know how to help him better than to listen to him, feed him sometimes, give him a few dollars if I have it.
    Quilty Bookmite: I have to say that the best help isn't always the most obvious.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Solobill Laville: That is true help, Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: He lies to me alot.
    Quilty Bookmite: Indeed.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I just listen.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: he tells me true things too.
    Quilty Bookmite: But you know he's lying.
    Solobill Laville: As you've probably thought, he probably doesn't even know he's lying
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: me nods...I know he isn't using that money just for food and shelter
    Solobill Laville shrugs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..it's not my choice anymore when I lay it in his hands.
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Solo.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fael Illyar: Drink is a temporary escape. Gets you through some time and possibly allows you to not solve the real issues.
    Solobill Laville: you have given, let it go :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I wish he didn't feel like he had to tell me something untrue to get it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I agreee with you, Fael.
    Solobill Laville: Have you told him that Corvi?
    Quilty Bookmite: Drink is one thing. Hard drugs is another. There may not be much difference but if I had given someone some money and they died of an overdose...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know how to tell someone that I think they are lying to me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: unless the proof is RIGHT there.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: though he and I have talked about the fact that he drinks.
    Solobill Laville: and as you said, it doesn't matter to you in "change" sense anyway...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire muses about how she might be more blunt wiht her friend.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Solo.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I agree with you, too, Quilty.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am not sure my answer is the right one.
    Gaya Ethaniel: He's lying... he already knows well enough he's doing something wrong... could that be enough for you Corvi?
    Quilty Bookmite: People with addictive personalities often make good liars. In fact they are able to convince themselves that their lie is true.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sure..it has been.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Solobill Laville: With issues of compassion, just trust your heart :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Compassion is definitely at the forefront here. True compassion isn't necessarily giving someone what they want, although it might be.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: you're right Quilty.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: on both directions, I think.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Solobill Laville: I think if you had given someone money who needed food, and they died of an overdose
    Solobill Laville: Your conscience shoul be clean
    Solobill Laville: *d
    Quilty Bookmite: Even if you could have given them food?
    Solobill Laville: That would be best...i would think, yes
    Solobill Laville: I must be off, friends
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah. I gues it's that time.
    Solobill Laville: take care everyone
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye you brilliant and wonderful people
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Corvi. Bye all.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Same here. Good day/night
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Corvi :)

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