2008.12.28 13:00 - Struggling with perspectives

The guardian at this meeting was Maxine Walden.  All the comments are hers.

When I got to the Pavilion Scathach was already there.  We greeted one another and soon were joined by Stevenia and Pema.

 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello maxine
 Maxine Walden: hi, Scathach
 Maxine Walden: and steve
 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello steve
 stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maxine
 Pema Pera: hi there, Maxine, Steve, Scathach!
 stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pema
 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
 stevenaia Michinaga: and Scathach
 Maxine Walden: a reindeer shirt, steve?
 Maxine Walden: hi Pema
 stevenaia Michinaga: wolf
 Maxine Walden: oh, missed by a mile, didn't I!

And then Adelene joined us becoming a magnificent lioness blanket on Pema's lap.  Fefonz joined us soon thereafter

 Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
 Maxine Walden: Hi Adelene, on Pema's lap it seems
 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello adeline
 Adelene Dawner: ^.^
 Pema Pera: Hi Fefonz!
 Pema Pera is ready for heavy snowfall now!
 Maxine Walden: with a lion blanket, Pema?
 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
 stevenaia Michinaga: it;s 60 out east today
 Maxine Walden: hi Fefonz
 Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone
 Pema Pera: :)

And Fefonz, Threedee, Moon, Adams joined us as well.

 Maxine Walden: hi 3D
 Adelene Dawner: ^.^
 Threedee Shepherd: hi folks
 Pema Pera: hi Three!
 Moon Fargis: greetings
 Maxine Walden: hi, Moon
 Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Moon
 Maxine Walden: hi, adams
 Fefonz Quan: hi moon
 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
 Moon Fargis: ^^/
 Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
 Adams Rubble: Hello Everyone :)
 stevenaia Michinaga: watches Moon
 Moon Fargis: abra cadabra a pillow :)
 Adelene Dawner: :)
 Adams Rubble: Hello Threedee :)

A little presence, Squee, had a few things to say, as I thought about whether it was inspired by Faenik.  In addition at this point Threedee was having trouble staying inworld.

 Squee: Don't ask what the meaning of life is. - Define it.
 Moon Fargis: wb
 Threedee Shepherd: big crash
 Maxine Walden: yes, wb,3D
 Threedee Shepherd: .
 Threedee Shepherd: big crash

It was not about 15 minutes into our session and I tried to see if we could focus the discussion, but even now, given some of the responses, it felt that we were having some trouble with such focus

 Maxine Walden: any guardian issues today?
 Moon Fargis: my tea is cold
 Adelene Dawner chuckles. "That's definitely an issue, yes."
 Moon Fargis slurps his cold tea
 Moon Fargis: seems all are happy :)
 Moon Fargis: *meow meow*
 Moon Fargis: hmmm seems like a big lag atm :)
 Adelene Dawner: augh! *mute*
 Moon Fargis: yahh sorry wrong one :)
 Maxine Walden: Moon filling in the time and space?
 Moon Fargis: ahh i just looked if i saved the rotating pab  
sign from the library
 Moon Fargis: seems not
 Moon Fargis: brb :)

Threedee then tried over the next several minutes to pose a question, inspired by some of the exercises and discussion from the Kira phenomological workshop several of us were attending.  Even so it was still difficult to gain focus, several strands of conversation wending this way and that.

 Threedee Shepherd: OK, I can pose a question for discussion,  
if there are no others?
 Adelene Dawner: Always :)

 Moon did bring back the rotating PaB sign and it rotated high above the fountain during much of the remaining discussion

 Maxine Walden: ah, Moon, intriguing to watch as 3D may be  
posing a question for our consideration

Threedee tries posing his question:

 Threedee Shepherd: Consider walking. On a sidewalk it is  
 simple. However, on a steep, uneven, rocky path in the forest, *I*  
 adapt my walking "style" to fit the enviroonment, often not even  
 conosciously. Question: if I thing of being as a me/world unity, does  
 the path in any way adapt to me?
 Threedee Shepherd: *I think
 Pema Pera: Can you express more about this "me/world unity",  
 how you see that, Threedee?
 Adelene Dawner: I think that how you're thinking of Being  
 doesn't have very much to do with it ^.^
 Fefonz Quan: if there is a unity, you and the path are  
 already adapted, aren't you?
 Moon Fargis: three: i think its more a matter of the right  
 shoes
 Adelene Dawner: Well put, Fefonz.
 Threedee Shepherd: I am trying to come up with an example  
 that is related to the phenomenology exercise going on in the Cafe.  
 so...
 Fefonz Quan: (i was just playing with the words, not based on  
 deep meaning which i can tell off...)
 Maxine Walden: could you say a bit more 3D about your example  
 and the phenom exercises?

Threedee tries to become more explicit about letting a non-animate thing or situation become an active agent

 Threedee Shepherd: first I "observe" the path and then the  
 path "observes me, and then there is the "situation" me & path as a  
 current phenomena. I am asking if there is a way to think of "the path  
 observing me" in a NON-metaphorical way

Two visitors then join us, Grommit and soon thereafter Oas and some introductions to the PaB format are wended into the ongoing discussion

 Adams Rubble: Hello Grommit
 grommit Puddlegum: hello everyone
 grommit Puddlegum: what's happening here?
 Pema Pera: Grommit, have you been here before?
 Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about  
 the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/
  -- we record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in  
 our blogs?
 Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Grommit
 Moon Fargis: three: the math as you describe is a collection  
 of millions of small things, stones, wood, leafes, earth, insects,  
 bugs,grass...
 Fefonz Quan: observing the path sounds like it's a material  
 entity that can be observed directly
 Moon Fargis: path
 Threedee Shepherd: and a way to think of the "path" as an  
*active* participant
 grommit Puddlegum: I'm new in this world
 Adelene Dawner: In that case, Three, you have to think on the  
 path's terms... it wouldn't observe in anything like the same way that  
 a human would.
 Moon Fargis: as what you see as path three, is in your mind  
 defining it as path
 Adelene Dawner: But I think it would still observe in a sense.
 Adelene Dawner nods at Moon, too.
 Pema Pera: Hi Oas, come join us if you like!
 Maxine Walden: I will IM grommit a couple of things about our  
 conversation
 Oas Windlow: hi everybody
 Pema Pera: Oas and Grommit, We get together a few times a day  
 to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have  
 a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- we record our conversations  
 there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
 Threedee Shepherd: That I know. I want to explore the concept  
 of "non-sentient", as there are some who ascribe some aspects of  
 sentenience even to rocks
 grommit Puddlegum: no

Trying to help focus things Pema then offers a question.  But to my observation, confusion still shines through in terms of some of the sidebars of conversation and slight frustrations which seem to be building.  

 Pema Pera: Three, if you take the movie or dream example, how  
 would you answer your own question?
 grommit Puddlegum: no
 Pema Pera: thanks, Grommit!
 Fefonz Quan: for me the notion of the path is so abstract,  
 that i don't understand how can it observe
 Pema Pera: Oas, okay to be recorded and added to our on-line  
 blog?
 Fefonz Quan: can my "walking" observe me walk?
 Threedee Shepherd: I am not sure what you mean by the "movie  
 example" dreams are me playing with me
 Adelene Dawner: A path 'observes' where people walk, for  
 example, and reacts by not growing plants there.
 Fefonz Quan: Adelene, you describe the path as the road
 Threedee Shepherd: The plants do not grow for obvious  
 physical reasons of the footfalls destroying them
 Moon Fargis: "when you look at the spoon, the spoon looks at  
 you when it is just shiny enought to reflect your face in it"
 Adelene Dawner: yes
 Fefonz Quan: but that makes it an objective thing that exist  
 without me
 Threedee Shepherd: yes, as are you
 Adelene Dawner: Three... if you look at sunflowers, there's a  
 physical mechanism that turns the flower to facethe sun... it's still  
 a reaction, tho.
 Fefonz Quan: can my path me without me?
 Fefonz Quan: be*

Threedee tries again

 Threedee Shepherd: OK, let me try again. Is a manufactured  
 spoon sentient?
 Moon Fargis: fefont: see buddhism, alot of going this path  
 without the one who founded it
 Scathach Rhiadra: is what you call path just your perceptions  
 of your sensory input?

And asks for help in keeping the question in mind central and in focus

 In here Moon came up with a huge hammer, ostensibly to knock some enlightenment into some of us; but I also think the hammer might have been an expression of some of the frustration some members were having with conceptualizing that exercise in which an inanimate object becomes the subject and the observing self the passive object.

Threedee Shepherd: Please help me to keep simplifing my  

 questioon so we have no"side-paths" :D
 Moon Fargis: hehe
 Pema Pera: :)
 Moon Fargis: what was it again ?:;)
 Maxine Walden: Pema, maybe we are struggling with the notion  
 of the spoon being able to become the subject and our witnessing that  
 in a passive way
 Fefonz Quan: as i understand, in buddhism each person has  
 it's own path - one reads a lot, and the other one gets enlightened by  
 a hit on the head
 Fefonz Quan: (for mooon)
 Threedee Shepherd: I asked: Threedee Shepherd: OK,  
 let me try again. Is a manufactured spoon sentient?
 Moon Fargis: fefonz: hmm intresting
 grommit Puddlegum: Isn't each persons path determined by the  
 decisions they make
 Fefonz Quan: i think we should listen to moon ;-)

 Scathach Rhiadra: if you perceive it as sentient then is it 
not sentient for you?

 Moon Fargis: just want to give you enlightment :)
 Adelene Dawner: Perhaps we need to define 'sentient'?
 Moon Fargis: *giggles*
 Threedee Shepherd: Damn, I should have been savvy enough NOT  
 to use the word PATH in an example, with this group. It's not the  
 point of my question :D
 Fefonz Quan: when the student is ready, the hammer will come :)
 stevenaia Michinaga: may I have some please, Moon
 Fefonz Quan: lol, moon
 Moon Fargis: my pleasure :)
 Maxine Walden: feel better, steve?
 stevenaia Michinaga: Thought the pink heart hammer would do it
 Moon Fargis: nahh enlightment is something verry own :)
 Moon Fargis: some unique
 Squee: Explore your questions.

Wondering about Threedee's efforts, I wonder aloud

 Maxine Walden: 3D, are you getting your question posed as you  
 wished?
 Fefonz Quan: should we go back to te spoon 3D?
 Fefonz Quan: looks like we chose the wrong path here :)
 Threedee Shepherd: n ot yet. The problem with defining  
 sentient is that the words used then beg definition as in the  
 following from an oonline dictionary: 1. Conscious or aware.
  2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.
 Fefonz Quan: what's the problem with saying the spoon is no  
 sentient?
 Fefonz Quan: not*
 Maxine Walden: Are you wondering if the spoon can 'look back,  
 be the subject'?
 Adelene Dawner: hm... seems like a clear 'no' to me, in the  
 case of a spoon.
 Moon Fargis: if sire a spoon can have feeling
 Moon Fargis: emotiond
 Moon Fargis: emotions
 Moon Fargis: aslong you think it that he can

Threedee and I exchange some questions which I then try to clarify by putting a question to Pema, but am then in doubt whether I had once again mis-understood the experiment, so that my frustration level also began to rise.

Threedee Shepherd: yes, I want to know if there is anything  
 more than Metaphorical thinking about that Maxine?
 Maxine Walden: I have a question about that as well, 3D,in  
 terms of being able to do that part of the experiment. Have thought I need  
 an example of the 'spoon' becoming the subject
 Threedee Shepherd: Say again
 Maxine Walden: or spoon 'becoming the subject'
 Maxine Walden: Perhaps I could say it again in the form of a  
 question to Pema, whether he could offer an example of the spoon as  
 subject
 Fefonz Quan: that was the unchosen exersice, is i recall
 Fefonz Quan: exercise*

Adams may have been offering an answer to my question about an example of the spoon as subject,  but at the time, my frustration level was not attuned to it.

Threedee Shepherd: yes, I want to know if there is anything  
 more than Metaphorical thinking about that Maxine?
 Maxine Walden: I have a question about that as well, 3D,in  
 terms of being able to do that part of the experiment. Have thought I need  
 an example of the 'spoon' becoming the subject
 Threedee Shepherd: Say again
 Maxine Walden: or spoon 'becoming the subject'
 Maxine Walden: Perhaps I could say it again in the form of a  
 question to Pema, whether he could offer an example of the spoon as  
 subject
 Fefonz Quan: that was the unchosen exersice, is i recall
 Fefonz Quan: exercise

 Adams Rubble: The spoon sits in the bowl
 Moon Fargis: "and waits for the knive"
 Moon Fargis: *giggles*
 Maxine Walden: am I getting it wrong again? Would someone  
tell me what 2B is about?
 Threedee Shepherd: I KNOW, that ANY object is what I use it  
as. Thus, now that is a rock and when I sit on it, it is a chair. I am  
trying to get past that kind of interaction that depends on my  
viewpoint, and am asking HOW it is meaningful to consider if the rock  
has a viewpoint?
 Maxine Walden: that is a question I have too 3D

Pema tries to address the questions that Threedee and I and perhaps others are expressing:

 Pema Pera: The spoon example probably comes from the subject- 
 object reversal experiment, in the phenomenology group in the Kira Cafe.
 The idea is to let the spoon take a more active subject role and you  
 yourself a more passive object role.
 Hint: both you and the spoon are given in your field of awareness, and  
 when looked at as such, can be seen "as" experiences (also "as"  
 matter, but let's focus on seeing them "as" experiences). In that way,  
 we can freely experiment with new degrees of freedom, without  
 wondering about whether spoons have eyes or sentience.

Reading Pema's answer reminded me that earlier I had understood that the question was not whether the spoon had eyes, but it was interesting that for some reason I had lost that clarity.  Others seem to be meandering as well.

 Threedee Shepherd: Maxine, it is the question I am meaning to  
 ask
 Adelene Dawner: Maybe we need to define 'experience'?
 Moon Fargis: hmm
 Threedee Shepherd: Experience in the way I am posing the  
 question of the moment is "the ability to have a viewpoint" and of  
 course someone will ask me to define viewpoint and we will go in  
 circles:D
 Adelene Dawner: Here's a useful question: If I am very deeply  
 asleep, and someone comes and draws on my face with a marker, and I am  
 not aware of them having done so, have I still experienced that?

Perhaps Pema tries to help out again with a question to Threedee

 Pema Pera: what is the whole question, Threedee, about  
 experience?
 Threedee Shepherd: I am not trying to be cute or  
 argumentative. I am trying to probes ways of exploring the subject- 
 object, object-subject distinction
 Moon Fargis: adelene: atleast not your logical mind
 Moon Fargis: adlene: but your subtle mind displaying you some  
 dream pictures them
 Moon Fargis: then
 Adelene Dawner: I'm not even thinking abot 'mind' - assume  
 I'm so deeply asleep that I'm not aware of it on any mind-level.
 Moon Fargis: adelene:: then you are in a state of zen :)
 Moon Fargis: when no ..even no dreams are there
 Moon Fargis: or okoma
 Moon Fargis: koma
 Moon Fargis: one of both
 Threedee Shepherd: no, it happened and in that case your mind/ 
 brain did not experience it, any more than it experienced the train  
100 miles away
 Adelene Dawner: Ah, but I didn't ask if my *mind* experienced  
 it. My skin still did. ^.^
 Threedee Shepherd: Well, if you were wearing a shirt and I  
 gently drew a picture on the sleeve, did the sleeve experience it.
 Fefonz Quan: (i was going for your boot, but same point)
 Adelene Dawner was going somewhere with this, which is not  
 helped by changing the metaphor.
 Maxine Walden: I cannot seem to get past the notion that if I  
 cease to be the observing object, can I relate to the spoon in a  
 passive way? Do I not have to attribute qualities to the spoon in  
 order to have some relationship of it as the subject?
 Threedee Shepherd: ok, continue Ade
 Moon Fargis: hmm when it does... then i want to be reborn as  
 a bikini ment for super models
 Fefonz Quan: moon, you'll be stuck in some odd places :)
 Moon Fargis: i dont care then!
 Moon Fargis: *giggles*
 Scathach Rhiadra: can I ask, if the spoon and I are both  
 'experiences', am I trying to experience one 'experience' seen by  
 another, both objects, no subject?
 Adelene Dawner: Basically my point was that 'experience'  
 seems to relate to 'change'... my skin is changed by the marker. I  
 don't have to be aware of the change for the change to happen.

Threedee and I exchange thoughts about our having to attribute qualities, such as eyes, to the inanimate spoon, perpetuating that aspect of confusion

  Threedee Shepherd: Maxine, you attribute qualities to the  
 spoon as an object. I am asking if that can somehow make the spoon an  
 active subject. A subject one who acts or can act independently with  
 intention.
 Threedee Shepherd: *is one who
 Threedee Shepherd: agreed change can happen, where does that  
 take my question?
 Pema Pera: Scathach, I meant it far simpler than that :-)
 Moon Fargis: do you saw matrix three?
 Adelene Dawner: And so what if we can't, Three? I think  
 you're asking the wrong question there.
 Fefonz Quan: i thought the spoon was just a tool to change  
 our point of view
 Threedee Shepherd: yes I saw it
 Moon Fargis: remember the spoon ?:)
 Fefonz Quan: matrix one it was
 Fefonz Quan: it coould be a non-dimensional point on the wall

Pema once again offers a simple way to conceptualize the experimental situation under consideration

  Pema Pera: just letting yourself be seen by a spoon is  

          simplicity itself -- no need to elaborate -- experience what it is, 
          describe it, and then start from there with further questions
          Threedee Shepherd: Changing MY point of view is interesting 
          and expands my ways of experiencing the world. I am asking "what 
          objects are capable of HAVING a point of view?"

And for me at least Pema's next comment helps in the orientation

 Pema Pera: don't try to step in the "shoes" of the spoon
 Fefonz Quan: how can we know, 3D?
 Moon Fargis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28kOO6qDk7s
 Fefonz Quan: (or another answer: none, only subjects :))

Pema continues to try to elucidate the many possible perspectives which the experimenter might adopt in this 'spoon as subject' aspect:

 Pema Pera: well, threedee, only animate objects, when you  
 pose the question within the normal way of looking at the story of our  
 life, right?
 Threedee Shepherd: I don't know, Fefonz, which is why I  
 brought this up
 Fefonz Quan: do you think we have enough data here to know?
 Pema Pera: but if you ask the question within a dream, what  
 answer do you expect? The answer that holds within the story of the  
 dream, or the answer from the point of view of the person lying in bed?
 Threedee Shepherd: I doubt it.
 Pema Pera: you have to choose your framework
 Fefonz Quan: me too.
 Pema Pera: we are talking as if there is something called  
  "the spoon" . . . there ain't -- not as such

Pema returns to stressing that the issue is the set up of the frame, for perceiving, and the spoon within that frame is key

            Pema Pera: there is a spoon in this framework and in that, 
            they are very different

Being a little concrete, I take up the dream, as the basic frame rather than one of many possible frames

Maxine Walden: so this experiment as with as a dream of a  
spoon as subject?
 Pema Pera: many possibilities Maxine!
 Pema Pera: experimenting is exploring many of those
 Maxine Walden: as if the spoon could be a subject
 Moon Fargis: maybe a spoon,waling on a pathway and asks  
 himself if the pathway is there or not weven with or without him, and  
 how the pathway notices him, or not 

 Pema Pera: the emphasis is on you, as an object, Maxine, in  

 that exploration
 Maxine Walden: or, not, that the spoon cannot be a subject,  
 that could be another way to go
 Moon Fargis: damn getting hungry for a soup now ^^

Threedee is struggling as well and Pema tries to help out

 Threedee Shepherd: OK, let me do it aphoristically. I  
 subscribe to the following: "The knower is part of the known." I want  
 to reverse that and ask if the KNOWN has an active role if it is a  
 rock, or spoon or sidewalk.
 Adelene Dawner: ...'active'?
 Pema Pera: Threedee, if you asked that question concerning a  

 rock in a dream or in a movie, how woul dyou answer?

 Fefonz Quan: HI Gaya :)
 Threedee Shepherd: active -----> capable of intent
 Pema Pera: hi Gaya!
 Maxine Walden: yes, guess if I hold on to my own experience  
 as the potential object then there would be various ways to go
 Maxine Walden: hi, gaya
 Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Gaya
 Threedee Shepherd: "I am every part of my dream"
 Moon Fargis looks around trhys to spot gaya
 Adams Rubble: Hi Gaya
 Fefonz Quan: 3D, the weird part might be the other way around  
 - does the KNOWER have an intention?
 Pema Pera: could that answer possibly apply to real life too,  
 Threedeed, and if so, how would that answer your original question?
 Pema Pera: *threedee
 Adams Rubble: goodbye everyone :)
 Pema Pera: good question, Fefonz :)
 Maxine Walden: see you adams

I notice we are at the hour mark in the session, 2pm SL, so as goc I mention this, which moreless brings the discussion to a close.  It felt that there was more to cover but that a good inroad had been made.

 Maxine Walden: yes, we are almost at the hour mark, and the  
conversation seems to be only beginning
Threedee Shepherd: Yes. intention is part of consciousness.  
No, I cannot prove I am conscious. No, I cannot prove that coonscious  
exists. Copnsiousness is a basic axiom in my system, jkust as is  
gravitational force.
 Moon Fargis: hehe
 Moon Fargis: se i think 3d
 Moon Fargis: you got a intresting answer now
 Moon Fargis: ba accident
 Moon Fargis: by
 Pema Pera: Indeed, Maxine, I have to go too
 Maxine Walden: yes, me as well.
 Pema Pera: see you all soon again
 Moon Fargis: one said hi gaya, everyone assumed gaya is here  
and said hi too
 Scathach Rhiadra: Bye Pema
 Moon Fargis: no gaya here but she was for us all for a short  
time
 Maxine Walden: yes, I will see you all as well. Bye for now.  
If there is more to the chatlog maybe someone could send it to me and  
I will post it