2008.12.30 19:00 - Dreaming as Possible expressions or ties to Being: Pema and Maxine

The Guardian this session was Tarmel Udimo, the comments below are hers.  This was a dialogue which took place between Pema Pera and Maxine Anderson who had asked Pema if they could dialog about aspects of the unconscious realms and dreaming as possible expressions or ties to Being.

When I got there several people were already there and we said many hellos..

Maxine Walden: hi, Tarmel

Tarmel Udimo: hi maxine

Tarmel Udimo: long time no see :-)

Maxine Walden: right!!

Maxine Walden: that was an interesting dialog I thought this afternoon

Tarmel Udimo: yes it was

Tarmel Udimo: I just came from another group who are also discussing self and no self.  Seems like there are lots

Maxine Walden: oh?

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel, Maxine:)

Maxine Walden: yes, a popular topic. Hi, Scathach

Tarmel Udimo: hi scath

Maxine Walden: hi, Adams

Tarmel Udimo: hi adam

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams

Maxine Walden: hi, Pema

Tarmel Udimo: hey pema

Adams Rubble: Hello Maxine, Pema, Scath and Tarmel :)

Pema Pera: Hi Everybody!

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema

Tarmel Udimo: did you forget I said I'd do your guardian slot for you?

Tarmel Udimo: pema I mean

Adams Rubble: Hello Steve :)

Pema Pera: ah, which one?

Maxine Walden: hi, Steve

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Steve

stevenaia Michinaga: hello, don't wnat to step on those unrezzed people

Tarmel Udimo: this one I think

Pema Pera: Ah, I may have forgotten . . . so many meetings . . . .

Adams Rubble: Hello Corvi :)

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maxine, always a pleasure

Pema Pera: was that for today

Pema Pera: or for more than one day?

Maxine Walden: hi, Corvi

Tarmel Udimo: at the moment I can keep doing it

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Corvi

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi ll

Pema Pera: oh, that would be wonderful, Tarmel!

Pema Pera: Thank you so much

Pema Pera: Today I have to be here for the dialogue with Maxine

Pema Pera: but it will be great to have one slot less

Tarmel Udimo: or was it 1:00am - yikes i'll have to check my email

Tarmel Udimo: but glad to be here for your talk with max

Adams Rubble: Hello Pila :)

Pema Pera: You do have the slot for 1 am on Wednesday morning, Tarmel

Pema Pera: it is now 7 pm on Tuesday

Maxine Walden: hi, Pila, impressive entrance

Pema Pera: I don't think you want to have two slots in a row

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila

Pila Mulligan: greetings everyone

Pema Pera: :-)

Pila Mulligan: excuse me please MAxine

Tarmel Udimo: yes that's right i thought that would be easy and still happy to do it....

Pema Pera: (for everybody else: Tarmel and I always live in the future -- it is Wednesday for us)

Maxine Walden: not a problem, Pila, enjoyed your entrance

Adams Rubble: :)

Pema Pera: really, two in a row, Tarmel, is that okay with you?

Tarmel Udimo: yep

Pila Mulligan: clean feet :)

Pema Pera: thank you so much !!!

Maxine Walden: wow, wonderful, Tarmel

Tarmel Udimo: you owe me big time :-)

Pema Pera looking left and right

Pema Pera: wondering :-)

Pema Pera: Maxine, do you want to introduce the topic for today?

Maxine Walden: yes, happy to!

Maxine Walden: I had asked Pema if we could dialog

Maxine Walden: about aspects of the unconscious realms and dreaming

Maxine Walden: as possible expressions or ties to Being.

Maxine Walden: Perhaps I could give a few thoughts/observations about these elements

Maxine Walden: as I understand them and then we can proceed. Does that sound OK?

Pema Pera: please do so!

Maxine Walden: From my understandings and work with the unconscious for a few decades now, I am impressed that there is a sense of timelessness

Maxine Walden: unity, no polarities, and all as immediate and now...these qualities - which I think we are also seeing with Being (especially as I am understanding Pema and Stim to be suggesting)

Maxine Walden: That is one point, those qualities. Another point is my understanding of the dream:

Maxine Walden: I understand that we all are engaged in a kind of dreaming process ongoingly:

Maxine Walden: waking and sleeping, a process of sorting/culling of input from both internal sources (body/mind)

Maxine Walden: and external sources (outer world) --

 Maxine Walden: ongoingly and like the stars we notice our dreamining more when the intensity of the day-mind recedes.

Maxine Walden: And thirdly, but related to the dreaming function,

Maxine Walden: is the experience of an inner intelligence which is far more vast than the intelligence of our everyday selves

Maxine Walden: and that inner intelligence I believe is associated with the creation of dreams and their exquisitely sensitive and complex

Maxine Walden: messages, mirroring about one's being ("Being")...the notion of an extraordinary 'dream-maker' within is just awesome

Maxine Walden: And in my experience as well, there is a kind of cosmic inner region (for me the unconscious regions)

Maxine Walden: vast, and complex and ever-evolving...containing all possibilies, meanings, etc of our evolving selves

Maxine Walden: possibilities

Maxine Walden: So wondering about these qualities as aspects of Being, possibly representations of Being, certainly at least for me

Maxine Walden: I appreciate the appearance, as it were, of these elements as a presentation of Being.

Maxine Walden: Maybe I can stop here for questions, comments...thoughts, Pema any observations?

Pema Pera: Thanks, Maxine, for those three interesting points:

Pema Pera: timelessness - dream ongoing - inner intelligence

Pema Pera: You have just told the story about how each of the three is seen from the perspective of a human being

stevenaia Michinaga: your choice of words is like music, Maxine

Pema Pera: like you or me, the roles we are playing here in this world

Maxine Walden: thank you, Steve

Pema Pera: Let me tell the same story from the point of view of Being (though that is tricky, there is no such thing, but let me try, as an approximation)

Pema Pera: For Being there is no time, and there are no beings

Pema Pera: there are stories appearing in which there are elements appearing within the stories

Pema Pera: one such element is that there is a realm with beings, including human beings, that unfolds and evolves over time, in a linear past-present-future time

Pema Pera: we are part of such a realm IF and AS LONG AS we identify ourselves with the role we are taught to play in that story

Pema Pera: So that is your first point: the timelessness is the stage for the story so to speak

Pema Pera: and our usual sense of time is part of what is being enacted on that stage

Pema Pera: So point one: your first intuition tells you that you have a sense of the stage, underlying the stories

Pema Pera: Shall I continue with the other two points, Maxine, or shall we talk about this first?

Maxine Walden: perhaps it would be good to hear your other two points, and then I can comment

Pema Pera: The second point, that dreams are ongoing in some sense, also makes sense when seen from Being's side

Pema Pera: From that perspective there is no real difference between waking and dreaming -- they are all stories

Pema Pera: and it is part of the story of "being awake" that there is a lot of difference between waking and dreaming and that it is very important (for that story) to make a clear difference between the two

Pema Pera: So your intuition gives you a sense of how the two blend, since both of them are far less absolute than the stories themselves demand

Pema Pera: Hi Kirkra!

Kirkra Caerndow: Hello there!

Pema Pera: The third point: inner intelligence

Pema Pera: From the side of Being there is Intelligence

Pema Pera: a form of Knowing

Pema Pera: that is inherent in Being

Pema Pera: the very appearance of appearance, of all phenomena, of all apperances, is the way that Knowing functions

Pema Pera: Your intuition, that this knowing is inherent, points to catching some glimmers from the perspective of Being,but translating that then back into the story of there being human beings, that somehow "have access to" that Knowing

Pema Pera: whereas in fact the human beings themselves are all expressions of that Knowing

Pema Pera: So to sum up:

Pema Pera: in all three points, from the Side of Being, these are natural manifestations of what Being is -- and does

Pema Pera: but from the side of human beings, all three seem miraculous and wonderful ways in which Being kind-of whispers to us, over and above our (seeming) limitations

Pema Pera: Both perspectives are valid, the absolute one of Being and the relative one of human beings

Pema Pera: but life gets vastly more easy and simple and relaxed when taking the side of Being, so to speak :-)

Pema Pera: does that makes some sense?

Maxine Walden: yes, I think so. Now, do I understand you to be suggesting

Maxine Walden: that my descriptions of the timelessness, ongoing dreaming (vs wakefulness and sleep) and inner intelligence are valid expressions or links with/to/of Being (words do get difficult and imprecise here)

Pema Pera: yes, and they are descriptions that are totally valid from one side, from the side of human beings -- but in fact they are quite different from the other side, from the side of Being

Pema Pera: and I invite you to also visit the other side

Pema Pera: both to complete the picture and to see how everything then vastly simplifies

Maxine Walden: but that when we humans feel we can grasp at that inner intelligence, then we are of course so out of tune, so resorting to lower functioning as it were...please say more about from the side of Being in this regard

Pema Pera: yes, you just said it :-)

Pema Pera: that is counterproductive

Pema Pera: we are already that inner intelligence

Pema Pera: grasping at it puts us in a knot

Maxine Walden: yes, but maybe we are on the same page here:

Maxine Walden: when we can appreciate the inner intelligence and not try to 'grasp' or 'own' it

Pema Pera: yes, we can let it function

Maxine Walden: when we can appreciate the timelessness

Maxine Walden: when we can be open to being informed by the dream messenger (you might differ with that as on the side of Being)

Pema Pera: Tarmel spoke about it as `grace', six hours ago

Maxine Walden: the being informed by the dream

Pema Pera: there are many ways in which "inner intelligence" can manifest

Pema Pera: but first of all, calling it "inner" is misleading right there

Pema Pera: it is not hidden it is not inside anything (head, heart, whatever) it is right here in front of our noses

Pema Pera: every appearance is an expression of this Intelligence, this Knowing, this Love

Maxine Walden: perhaps 'inner' is misleading, it is what I have experienced as opposed to 'other intelligence' which seems more shallow, as from the outer world that we grasp at as well

Pema Pera: on the level of Being they are all the same

Maxine Walden: ah, the issue is discernment between the different qualities of intelligence, perhaps

Pema Pera: ah yes, in that sense the distinction is valid, but then we can see that the outer knowing, too, comes from the same source

Pema Pera: is equally inner in that sense

Maxine Walden: as for me there is a considerable difference

Pema Pera: yes, the difference is very important, at first, to tune into what is really important

stevenaia Michinaga: are you qubbiling over geography, perhaps, but meaning the same thing?

Maxine Walden: interesting point, Steve. Certainly for me the geography is not important as long as discernment is possible

Pema Pera: there are different degrees of ignoring Being. So-called outer knowledge ignores Being in a stronger degree than inner knowledge

Pema Pera: like a snapshot in a movie frame -- it is all the same light from the projector, that produces both light and darkness on the screen

Pema Pera: light and darkness don't do battle with each other . . . .

Maxine Walden: yes, I am suggesting as well that the inner intelligence seems so much closer to Being than the outer

Pema Pera: . . . they stem directly from the same one source

Pema Pera: yes, they seem closer for us, but for Being they are equally close

Pema Pera: and this is not quibbling, Steve :-)

Pema Pera: as long as we really believe that inner knowledge is closer

Pema Pera: we remove ourselves further from Being

Pema Pera: this is VERY important

Maxine Walden: but light and dark do seem to do battle one seeming to try to take over the other, dark over light...

Pema Pera: if we stop believing that, we can accept that Being is already here in and as everything, inner and outer

Pema Pera: seeming yes

Pema Pera: :-)

Maxine Walden: maybe from Being they are not doing battle and I am OK with not pursuing that here and now

Pema Pera: perhaps we should open the floor?

Pema Pera: it's 7:40 . . .

Maxine Walden: oh, yes, forgot how long I had been talking...sorry

Tarmel Udimo: thank you both you have expressed yourselves in the most eloquent ways.

Pema Pera: thank you all for your patience :)

Adams Rubble whispers bye and thanks to Maxine and Pema :)

Tarmel Udimo: and I have never heard such a clarifying description of Being....

Pema Pera: thank you, Tarmel, Adams!

Kirkra Caerndow: Excellent

Tarmel Udimo: I guess when it comes down to it I still want to know why?

Maxine Walden: why....?

Tarmel Udimo: why does being manifest?

Pema Pera: the answer is in seeing Tarmel

Pema Pera: not in given a reason

Pema Pera: the story in the movie cannot give reasons for the projector

Tarmel Udimo: no, and I understand fully and yet there is still the little girl within me who has been searching for a long time who is still wanting an answer

Pema Pera: yes, and it is good to start that way!

Pila Mulligan: Maxine, how do you feel about Jung's description of the collective unconscious in terms of the points you raised and, Pema, do you feel Jung's descriptions have a place in your view of Being?

Maxine Walden: I think Jung was onto something with that notion, he and others. It makes a kind of sense in terms of the accrual of ancestral experience. And seems to go along now with the understandings about

Maxine Walden: how our ancestral history is also written in our genes, so that we live with traces of all human history at every moment. Impressive thoughts for me

Maxine Walden: live with, and express in our every action and thought our ancestral history, probably back to all our ancestors, pre-human as well

Maxine Walden: Pema, your thoughts about that?

Pema Pera: if we start off, as we are taught to do, by viewing the world as a drab place, then it is very healthy to say "oh, no, look, there is this very special knowledge, come here, inner knowledge" -- an essential first step!

Pema Pera: And Jung's inside are valid and interesting within their own way

Pema Pera: But then if we keep focusing on that inner knowledge, saving it, chasing it, being anxious when that kind of `grace' doesn't appear, and overjoyed when it does, we are missing the point; that can then tend to STRENGTHEN our belief that the rest of the world is a drab place.

Pema Pera: So step one: the world is not a drab place -- there is something truly sacred.

Pema Pera: And step true: all is sacred, on the level of the raw appearances.

Pema Pera: Phenomena in themselves are our friends, each and every one, telling us directly of Being. Whenever we stop and take the time to let a single phenomenon speak to us, Being speaks to us. "To see the world in a grain of sand . . . "

Pema Pera: So somewhere in between Being's point of view and human being's point of view, there are many intermediate ones - like Jung's

Pema Pera: like shamans

Maxine Walden: so perhaps you are making the point that we do not need to draw upon some complex notion such as collective unconscious which might invite us away from the everyday sacredness at hand

Pema Pera: we don't need to

Pema Pera: only in step one

Pema Pera: but not in step two

Pila Mulligan: how about when we are asked to help someone else in need of therapy?

Pema Pera: PaB is about step two

Pila Mulligan: as a tool

Pema Pera: oh, then we use step one, for sure!!

Pema Pera: absolutely

Pema Pera: I use that everyday for myself too!

Pema Pera: prayer, contemplation, rituals

Pema Pera: but I do them from step two point of view

Pema Pera: as celebration not as means to get to an end

Pema Pera: Hi Deet, come join us if you like!

Pila Mulligan: to me the coolective unconscious is an excellent mental tool when trying to reach an understanding with someone on a much different wavelength, so to speak

Pema Pera: oh, sure, yes!

Pema Pera: but like with every tool, it is also good to see the context, the wider landscape in which the tool is just one part

Tarmel Udimo: prayer, contemplation, rituals-I do them from step two point of view as celebration not as means to get to an end - THIS IS GOOD and has given me a context within which to take up practise again :-)

Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Tarmel

Pema Pera: you see, I myself keep forgetting

Pema Pera: falling back from two to one every minute

Pema Pera: and a sense of the sacred then reminds me to jump back

Pema Pera: but not jumping: from within two you CANNOT even fall back

Pema Pera: so no need to jump

Pema Pera: no possibility even

Tarmel Udimo: nods

Maxine Walden: I find that I fall toward step one whenever I get fatigued. and other distractions...but just a whiff of the sacred brings me back unless I just need to rest

Maxine Walden: it feels 'human' to recede from step two...entropic perhaps

Tarmel Udimo: I feel that way to. It takes a lot of energy it seems

Pema Pera: ah, there's the rub

Pema Pera: at first it may feel like taking energy to "climb" from one to two

Maxine Walden: I find that too, lots of energy, perhaps part of Being embraces the entropic...the pull toward the deanimate which we all experience

Pema Pera: but that's a sign of using a "one" mentality

Pema Pera: "two" is in fact the easiest, by far

Pema Pera: no climbing, just accepting that all is "two" already, even if we don't see it!

Maxine Walden: but is it easy to stay within the 'two' state Pema? don't you find the pull toward the 'one' as well?

Pila Mulligan: is Being entropic? neat question

Pema Pera: the key point is to know/see that when you (seem to) fall back to one, you haven't gone anywhere, you are stil in two

Pema Pera: the more that sinks in, the easier it gets

Pema Pera: like watching a movie, and knowing/seeing that people being murdered are not really murdered in front of you

Pema Pera: THEN you can let yourself fall back into the movie and really cry at moving scenes

Pema Pera: without losing yourself in desperation

Pema Pera: you can have it both, REALLY!

Maxine Walden: ...that we are being carried along in Being and just experience the pull back to 'one' but do not have to feel stuck or defined by that 'one'...

Maxine Walden: unless we 'need' to be there in some way

Pema Pera: just, for Being, all is Two

Pema Pera: only some of Two is called One by us, as a stage show

Pema Pera: We are Being playing as limited creatures

Pema Pera: so we return the compliment, playing Being instead

Pema Pera: Being playing us playing Being

Pema Pera: quite a funny show . . . .

Maxine Walden: well, we have gone over the hour mark...I will need to go soon

Pema Pera: Maxine, may I suggest that you hold the next dialogue with a different person?

Pema Pera: Kirkra here just volunteered

Pema Pera: having an interesting set of dream experiences

Pema Pera: that he would love to discuss with you

Maxine Walden: Happy to...Haven't had the pleasure of meeting Kirkra

Pema Pera: much as I love dialoging, I like to listen too :-)

Kirkra Caerndow: Well I'm here, and I'm pleased to meet you!

Pema Pera: perhaps the two of you can set up a day and time, and Maxine, you can then announce it on the email group

Maxine Walden: great. Happy to, Kirkra and Pema

Pila Mulligan: thanks very much Maxine for initiating this discussion of dreams and Pema for furtherng it in terms of Being

Tarmel Udimo: yes it was very good

Pema Pera: thank you all for joining and for being so patience -- next time I'll listen :-)

Maxine Walden: Kirkra, when would you like to dialog next?

stevenaia Michinaga: wager on that

Pema Pera: hehehe Steve

Scathach Rhiadra: thank you both so much, it has been a great dialogue

Pema Pera: yw, Scathach!

Maxine Walden: yes, thanks for coming

Pema Pera: Let me send you both an email, Maxine and Kirkra

Pema Pera: and then you can discuss together, to pick a day and time

stevenaia Michinaga: thank you maxine and pema, a good chat

Maxine Walden: great, Pema, then we can talk privately

Kirkra Caerndow: Why thank you!

Maxine Walden: bye all, see you soon

Tarmel Udimo: bye pema

Pema Pera: Tarmel, would you be willing to put up the chat log for today?

Kirkra Caerndow: Goodbye!

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Maxine, Pema

Tarmel Udimo: yes happy to! means i get to read it again - grins

Pema Pera: by everybody!

Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Pema!

Pema Pera takes a humble bow

Pila Mulligan: bye

Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Maxine!

Pema Pera: see you all soon again!

Tarmel Udimo: bye max

Corvuscorva Nightfire: time for me to go, too.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: night all.

Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Corvi

Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, see you all again soon, Namaste

Pila Mulligan: moi aussi -- bye all, for now

Tarmel Udimo: bye scath & Pila

Tarmel Udimo: bye folks see you later

stevenaia Michinaga: bye