2009.01.01 07:00 - Looking To and From

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    Happy New Year! 

    This log partly tells about a subject/object reversal experiment.  In retrospect, it's likely I did not follow the guidelines of the experiment.  You get what you get.  - CH

    Hello there! and Happy New Year!! ...

    Caledonia Heron: hi Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Happy New Year Cal
    Caledonia Heron: yes, indeed... Happy New Year :)
    Caledonia Heron: did you have a celebration?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we had a small lovely gathering at home. Yourself?
    Caledonia Heron: us too, friends came over :) it was fun
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Caledonia Heron: they are all still here, some sleeping, some having coffee
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. I had a good dose of tea too this morning
    Caledonia Heron: :) I know what you mean

    Current events ...

    Gaya Ethaniel: Suppose not all are fortunate enough to have had merry gatherings as us. Fefonz was talking about his parents in Israel yesterday
    Gaya Ethaniel: [with rockets landing where they live]
    Caledonia Heron: really? interesting ... looks like a bad situation there
    Gaya Ethaniel nods... both sides it seems
    Caledonia Heron: I wonder if they will succeed in breaking that cycle... sometimes it appears not, sometimes there seems to be progress
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed... it is a 'cycle'


    Coming around to PaB ...

    Caledonia Heron: do you still engage in the 9secs (or variation) practice?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I hear the bell most of the time
    Gaya Ethaniel: How about you Cal?
    Caledonia Heron: Is that a metaphor for doing the practice or you literally have a bell? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I have the mindful bell software installed on my computer for when I'm using the machine
    Caledonia Heron: ah, ok, got it
    Gaya Ethaniel: When it's not on, I do it as necessary
    Caledonia Heron: To answer your question I have been doing a kind of experiment with the phenomenology group, exploring role reversal between subject (myself) and an object and reporting on that to the group
    Gaya Ethaniel: Could you share your experiences here?
    Caledonia Heron: mmm, I can try
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Thank you

    A take on how the phenom experiment can happen ...

    Caledonia Heron: are you familiar with the experiment ... not sure how much to explain
    Gaya Ethaniel: I read a few emails... I do get the rough idea of it yes
    Caledonia Heron: the group members are each reporting on what happens for them when trying a subject-object reversal
    Caledonia Heron: some see the object as the subject looking at themselves as object
    Caledonia Heron: kind of a "moving over to" perspective
    Caledonia Heron: another variation is to stay right where you are, and stay passive
    Caledonia Heron: then let the object see you without being the object ... to be seen by the object as an object :)
    Caledonia Heron: sounds funny doesn't it :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds very interesting. Which variation are you exploring at the moment?

    Some of the experiment comes across.  ... 

    Caledonia Heron: I have tried them both and find the second variation a little more interesting
    Gaya Ethaniel: The one where one stays 'passive'?
    Caledonia Heron: yes, correct
    Caledonia Heron: I don't have a very good handle on how to describe it ...and, I can say that it's like you can see and be seen at the same time, like a big picture type of thing ... I think I will get better at it given more practice
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say these explorations are related to 9 sec or PaB exercises?
    Caledonia Heron: sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: What you described just now seems somewhat similar to YSBS
    Caledonia Heron: yes, it has those elements
    Caledonia Heron: and, it's like a repeating decimal sort of ... YSBSYSBSYSBS, like a loop maybe or a melding, or a creating one thing but still two .... hard to describe which is probably hugely evident at this point :)

    Is it like two mirrors? ...

    Caledonia Heron: I am taking little baby steps, maybe someone with a better handle on it could describe it more effectively
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is it like looking into two mirrors facing each other?
    Caledonia Heron: that brings to mind a kind of ping pong arrangement which to me this is not,
    Caledonia Heron: it's not a going back and forth,
    Caledonia Heron: it's more a seeing of a picture and being the picture seeing back at the same time
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Gaya Ethaniel: And do you see yourself being the picture at the same time?
    Caledonia Heron: sec, let me think how to write it
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Please take your time

    The set-up and description of two examples in which the second example loses it's timeline/sequence ...

    Caledonia Heron: maybe I can sequence it to be more descriptive ... the sequence will be less apparent and falls away at the end
    Caledonia Heron: think how you start your 9sec
    Caledonia Heron: you're wherever, being you, doing your thing
    Caledonia Heron: breath, relax, release your thoughts,
    Caledonia Heron: you can see yourself as the subject of your relationship with your environment
    Caledonia Heron: all the stuff is out there, being the objects in the subject/object relationship
    Gaya Ethaniel is following 

    Caledonia Heron: you can pick an object, whatever, and kind of have it look back at you, maybe "put yourself in it's shoes" so to speak
    Caledonia Heron: that's one way
    Caledonia Heron: another way you can go is to be you, and have the object see you while still being yourself, ... there's a two yet one sort of thing going on, and there, for me the sequence kind of breaks down until I'm distracted and then I'm back where I started
    Gaya Ethaniel: 'The objects' as the surrounding?
    Caledonia Heron: it's at the breakdown, yet importantly the opening, of the sequence that's of great interest to me

    I stayed put and saw myself as object from the new subject. ...

    Caledonia Heron: mmm, if I understand your question correctly, it's more specific than objects being your surroundings
    Gaya Ethaniel: [7:39] Caledonia Heron: another way you can go is to be you, and have the object see you while still being yourself => the objects you mean here are all elements in one's surrounding?
    Caledonia Heron: ah, ok ... no, this is about a specific selected object ... but I can see that someone with a great deal of facility with this technique might be able to include the whole of one's surroundings
    Caledonia Heron: and I will qualify all this by saying these are merely my experiences for what they're worth :)

    A vocabulary and description issue arises ...

    Gaya Ethaniel: Let me read again the second 'method' then. I probably misunderstood...
    Caledonia Heron: :) probably my description
    Caledonia Heron: it's difficult to write about this stuff on the fly
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah got it Cal
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds very interesting indeed. In a way more specific/focused than YSBS... perhaps easier to start with
    Caledonia Heron: yes, very interesting .... another flavour, variation
    Gaya Ethaniel nods

    With that, farewell ...

    Caledonia Heron: you might consider joining the experiment if it's of interest
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Yes perhaps
    Gaya Ethaniel: Alas need to attend RL [some demands feeding]
    Caledonia Heron: sure, understood ... hope I made a little sense :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I appreciate it Cal. It's been very interesting conversation
    Caledonia Heron: I've been running on a bit, would like to hear your pab experience next time :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I use 9 sec for pauses mainly
    Gaya Ethaniel: Otherwise, I meditate...
    Caledonia Heron: mmmm, all good :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: No news to report I'm afraid...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Cal. Good to have seen you today
    Caledonia Heron: yes, same here, see you soon :)

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