2009.01.04 13:00 - Dimensions, doubts and experience

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    The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers

    When I got to the pavilion Scathach was already there.  We are almost immediately joined by Riddle and I ask how the New Year has been for each of us

    Maxine Walden: hi, Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Maxine
    Maxine Walden: how are you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: fine, and you?
    Maxine Walden: fine, just back from a couple of days  
    away...letting the New Year get under way
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Everybody
    Maxine Walden: hi, Riddle
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Riddle
    Maxine Walden: How is the New Year treating each of you so far?
    Riddle Sideways: very relaxing
    Maxine Walden: nice!
    Riddle Sideways: several parties
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it has been very relaxing, but back to  
    work tomorrow
    Maxine Walden: ah, yes, seems work may be beckoning for many  
    of us...seems like New Year offering hope for many...
    Riddle Sideways: I've worked the last couple weeks but nobody  
    else there
    Riddle Sideways: few crisis' and little choas
    Maxine Walden: oh, Riddle? How's that? All taking time off  
    but you?
    Riddle Sideways: yep
    Riddle Sideways: I am the new kid
    Riddle Sideways: without vacation time
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah :)
    Maxine Walden: ah, so holding the fort
    Riddle Sideways: funny, I have the support phone on a product  
    I don;t know anything about
    Maxine Walden: that must be an interesting position to be in...
    Scathach Rhiadra: I 've been in that position a few times:)
    Riddle Sideways: that is a use of the word interesting that I  
    don't understand
    Scathach Rhiadra: the ancient Chinese curse 'interesting'?
    Riddle Sideways: ah so

    I apoligize for using an ambiguous word which did not acknowledge the situation Riddle has been describing

    Maxine Walden: perhaps, Riddle, it is a mis-use of the word  
    'interesting'; ...
    Riddle Sideways: bad

    And then we are on to the phenomological workshop experiments involving change in perspective toward/from an object (a common spoon) which we refer to as 'spoons'.  It is soon apparent that nearly all of us are struggling with the changes of perspective, nearly all except Riddle.  In the middle of this Tarmel joins us.

    Riddle Sideways: but, enough about me... how about those  
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
    Riddle Sideways: I've been reading what I have been missing
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Tarmel
    Maxine Walden: and I have been away the past few days, but  
    found that I was having a difficult time not being the subject...what  
    about you?
    Maxine Walden: hi, Tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel:)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone :-)
    Maxine Walden: Tarmel,
    Riddle Sideways: that is the problem... when YOU are always  
    the subject
    Maxine Walden: we have just been beginning to talk about the  
    'spoons' experiements
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes it is very difficult to change your  
    view without changing your position
    Tarmel Udimo: can you say more
    Scathach Rhiadra: to still remain in position in your  
    awareness but take the view from outside yourself, so to speak
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I find it difficult too
    Maxine Walden: I found myself so aware of the focus of the  
    observer, and wondered if some of the difficulty had to do with an  
    almost hardwired ancestral quality of being the predator, the subject  
    viewing the object, as it were

    As Riddle seemed to have not difficulty in this exercise we ask more about his experience

    Riddle Sideways: I did not find it hard at all, so I think I  
    have missed something of the instructions
    Scathach Rhiadra: looking back at my two reports, I don't  
    think there was much difference in my experience between them
    Maxine Walden: oh, Riddle, please tell us your experience
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: please do:)
    Riddle Sideways: for years and years I have been doing  
    "outside" of myself exercises
    Riddle Sideways: or being in me, but feeling behind/out the  
    Riddle Sideways: being multiple people, objects, space
    Riddle Sideways: that one spoon was ... well it seemed too easy
    Riddle Sideways: I do confess that the spoon did not try to  
    bend me :)

    We may get a little distracted in here, but that may also be due to the intriguing nature of the out of self practices Riddle is trying to describe to us

    Tarmel Udimo: is that part of timeline theory?
    Tarmel Udimo: I think its time line pratice I meant to say
    Maxine Walden: not sure what timeline theory is, Tarmel
    Maxine Walden: or time line practice?
    Tarmel Udimo: a friend was exploring a technique where by you  
    discover which time line you're on
    Riddle Sideways: Tarmel, last weeks PaB wiki and Kiri  
    sessions were talking about spoon exercises
    Riddle Sideways: ooo interesting
    Riddle Sideways: or which timeline others are on
    Scathach Rhiadra: that sounds interesting
    Maxine Walden: I need a little more explanation about  
    timelines in this context...
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I know about spoon except it sounded like a  
    time line exercise...
    Tarmel Udimo: okay its all a bit vague for me and I hadn't  
    meant to take us away from talking about riddles experience

    Riddle is happy to have the focus go elsewhere, but we insist coming back to his experience

    Riddle Sideways: no no take away
    Tarmel Udimo: but first tell us more about what you're doing
    Maxine Walden: right, maybe we should stay with Riddle's  
    experience and perhaps get to time lines as well
    Tarmel Udimo: Riddle?
    Riddle Sideways: darn, back to me
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yep

    And so he tells us more detail but seems to also be grappling with staying in one's body, having the spoon look at one

    Riddle Sideways: seems I have always tried to see things from  
    other points of view
    Riddle Sideways: when I read about spoon exercises yesterday
    Riddle Sideways: I already had a spoon (albeit a little dirty)  
    there on the table
    Riddle Sideways: it was easy to become the spoon
    Riddle Sideways: looking out atthe environment
    Riddle Sideways: a bunch harder for the spoon to look at me
    Riddle Sideways: spoon didn't care much about me
    Maxine Walden: right, the spoon looking at you, that is what  
    is so hard for me...because it feels I have to impute some 'seeing'  
    into the spoon, even though I have heard Pema say otherwise...
    Maxine Walden: is that what others are struggling with?
    Riddle Sideways: brb
    Tarmel Udimo: well I seemed to have slipped into being  
    both... :-)
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, phone call
    Riddle Sideways: spoon seeing was okay

    Scathach brings up the notion of the subjects and objects being only perceptions


    Scathach Rhiadra: I seem to have trouble seeing both the  
    spoon and 'me' as anything but perceptions

    Crusty joins us, sporting a jolly Santa hat and an elegant cape; as he is coming in mid-paragraph we make sure he is aware of what we are calling the 'spoons' 

    Maxine Walden: hi, Crusty
    Riddle Sideways: spoon directed at silly body was hard
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Crusty
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Crusty
    Tarmel Udimo: hi royal juggler
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Riddle Sideways: nice cape
    Tarmel Udimo: alchemist
    Crusty Goldshark: hi guys
    Maxine Walden: Crusty, we are talking about the the  
    experiements some of us are doing having to do with spoons, are you  
    familiar with those?
    Riddle Sideways: yes, we is all perceptions
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: :-)
    Crusty Goldshark: yes I know of spoons

    Scatchach continues with her notion re perceptions

    Scathach Rhiadra: exactly, so I'm thinking one perception  
    trying to look at another perception
    Maxine Walden: OK, just wanting to make sure..
    Riddle Sideways: to know we are perceptions is a big  
    important step
    Tarmel Udimo: I think its just being looked at in its  
    simplest variation , No?
    Scathach Rhiadra: can't help feeling the important bit is in  
    the perceiving or awareness
    Riddle Sideways: no trouble thinking of my percepted main av  
    seeing the perception av labeled Tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra: not the perceiver or object

    And then it seems that our different perceptions may be introducing doubt:

    Tarmel Udimo: hummm maybe I am missing something... :)
    Riddle Sideways: perceiving perceptions... trickey wording
    Scathach Rhiadra: or maybe I am:))
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Maxine Walden: or maybe there are different ways to view the  
    experiment and all of these vertices pertain
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I think so
    Riddle Sideways: yes, back to the beginning, where I thought  
    that I had missed something in the instructions

    As we all seemed to be struggling in our own way It seemed meaningful to make the following observation:

    Maxine Walden: isn't it interesting that when something seems  
    easy and someone else is struggling we feel we may have missed  
    something, that it should be as difficult for us as them?
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: that's a point yes..
    Riddle Sideways: we spend so much time the other way around
    Riddle Sideways: that it is awkward being the easy one
    Maxine Walden: yes, exactly, Riddle, we are so un-used to  
    that position
    Scathach Rhiadra: like 'no pain no gain'
    Riddle Sideways: so if we did not pain...
    Riddle Sideways: we question the gains
    Maxine Walden: yes, doubt seems to come in there, doubting  
    things that come easily

    So having mentioned how hampered we can be by doubt, Tarmel mentions the other side of the coin interspersed by Riddle's mention of his many years seeking higher dimensions and the two see to have a braided conversation for a bit, playing with different connotations about the same word, 'beam'

    Tarmel Udimo: yes and yet there are whole ways of being  
    linked to phrases like 'going with the flow'
    Riddle Sideways: well, 40 years of trying to image the 4th or  
    nth dimensional projections has been some work
    Tarmel Udimo: and the line of least resistance
    Riddle Sideways: if the line/flow is in the right direction
    Tarmel Udimo: and how's your brain now riddle :-)
    Riddle Sideways: is it easy to get where you should
    Riddle Sideways: thanks for asking, but my mind is a mess
    Tarmel Udimo: yes it feels great when I am on "the beam" I  
    call it
    Tarmel Udimo: but when not on it wow talk about making one's  
    life a struggle
    Riddle Sideways: light or balence beam?
    Tarmel Udimo: both ;)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Riddle Sideways: that would be tooooo straight and narrow
    Tarmel Udimo: yes except there's nothing like 'ease"

    It felt important to ask Riddle more specifically about his pursuit of the 4th dimension

    Maxine Walden: you have been spending a lot of time imagining  
    the 4th dimension, Riddle?
    Riddle Sideways: favorite subject
    Tarmel Udimo: just my question
    Maxine Walden: I would be interested in hearing more, Riddle,  
    about your experience
    Riddle Sideways: we/I don't have enough time

    And he and Tarmel continue 

    Tarmel Udimo: have you read guirjieef?
    Tarmel Udimo: spelling not sure
    Riddle Sideways: don't think so
    Tarmel Udimo: will find link for you - in the mean time tell  
    us why you look at the 4th dimension?
    Riddle Sideways: just googled lots of links
    Riddle Sideways: not sure how it started
    Riddle Sideways: there was this geometry class in high school
    Riddle Sideways: made a big deal about 2 dimensions of sheets  
    of paper
    Riddle Sideways: and 3 dimentional solids
    Riddle Sideways: but didn't tell me about more dimentions
    Riddle Sideways: made me go look it up
    Riddle Sideways: flatland book was written ... half a century ago

    Crusty has to leave

    Crusty Goldshark: cu later
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Crusty
    Maxine Walden: bye Crusty
    Riddle Sideways: ok, bye Crusty

    And just as he does Riddle's doubt seems to seep in and we offer reassurance

    Riddle Sideways: happens that way.
    Riddle Sideways: I start taking over chat
    Riddle Sideways: and people leave :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Tarmel Udimo: I will need to give link at a later date as i  
    am looking for a certain book that I think you will find interesting...
    Maxine Walden: but we are here, really interested, Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: thanks
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I am

    Riddle mentions his struggle and the current resolution

    Riddle Sideways: then there was a huge debate about 4th  
    dimension being time not spacial
    Riddle Sideways: I wrestled with that for years
    Riddle Sideways: now peacefully think both are higher  

    While Riddle mentions the many dimensions from a physics position, Tarmel and then I bring up other aspects such as 'being' and 'meaning'

    Tarmel Udimo: well "being" is multidimensional
    Riddle Sideways: string theory helps by saying that you need  
    7-10 dimensions to understand it
    Tarmel Udimo: and I think part of our problem is that it is  
    experiencial and can't be explained...
    Riddle Sideways: yes, Being is wherever we take it
    Riddle Sideways: or it takes us
    Riddle Sideways: both and neither
    Riddle Sideways: we find it so hard to explain a 'spoon' to  
    each other
    Maxine Walden: and then there is the dimension of  
    meaning...which may be unique for each of us
    Riddle Sideways: how should we explain Being
    Tarmel Udimo: yes meaning...
    Maxine Walden: think you were saying that Tarmel, our  
    experience is difficult to explain to each other

    And we realize again the possible paradox involving our unity in 'being' and yet the uniqueness of each of our own experience

    Riddle Sideways: we each "live"in our own "space"
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Riddle Sideways: we define it and try to share with you, but...
    Riddle Sideways: sharing/trading meaning is tough
    Scathach Rhiadra: noone can see through another's eyes
    Tarmel Udimo: well yes that it is a feeling state and we can  
    try to explain it but ...
    Tarmel Udimo: but I wander if we are all experiencing being  
    simultaneously would be seeing that in each other?
    Tarmel Udimo: wonder
    Maxine Walden: interesting to ponder
    Riddle Sideways: /methinks yes and no
    Tarmel Udimo: pema talks about seeing as a way to understanding
    Tarmel Udimo: but this word is also about experiencing
    Riddle Sideways: yes, substitute any of several words

    Riddle suggests possibly the varying tensions inherent in different perspectives, different aspects of being

    Riddle Sideways: somteimes it is easier to understand as a  
    spoon understands
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Riddle Sideways: then to see as spoon sees
    Riddle Sideways: and/or experience as spoon experiences
    Riddle Sideways: the fun play is sometimes involving the words  
    experimented with, sometimes the acts of thinking, and sometimes the role reversals
    Maxine Walden: I want to get your thought clearly, Riddle,  
    could you just say your last thought again: words and thinking  

    Riddle summarizes some of the frustrations as well as the pleasures of these conversations, and the reader may also be able to experience some of the frustration in that Riddle's complex thought is not fully expressed, perhaps not fully expressible

    Riddle Sideways wishes thoughts were clearer, lets see/ 
    Riddle Sideways: we have 2 very common threads here
    Riddle Sideways: words about the words we are using
    Riddle Sideways: those chats are fun
    Riddle Sideways: we have other chats about what we are ....
    Riddle Sideways: are, thinking, being, see, experience
    Riddle Sideways: then come here couple times a week
    Riddle Sideways: to chat and compare
    Riddle Sideways: SL is failing me
    Tarmel Udimo: are you a scientist too riddle
    Riddle Sideways: like to think of self as both artist and  

    Here I feel once again that time is too short, even with our having taken an hour so far, so I begin my goodbyes. 

    Maxine Walden: yes, thank you. I have really enjoyed this  
    conversation and wish I could continue, but I have another meeting to  
    go to. And this is my day to take the chatlog. If after I go there are  
    other thoughts, if someone could email them to me I will add them to  
    the wiki.
    Scathach Rhiadra: night Maxine
    Riddle Sideways: bye Maxine
    Tarmel Udimo: bye maxine - its always good to have you here
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