2009.01.10 13:00 - How Can We love If We Are Afraid of Losing It?

    Table of contents
    No headers

    Aurora Kitaj was the GOC. 

    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Aurora :)

    Adams Dubrovna: I am fine

    Adams Dubrovna: how about you?

    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Scath :)

    Aurora Kitaj: Great thanks... went to a panto with daughter this afternoon,

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams

    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Scath

    Adams Dubrovna: What is a panto?

    Aurora Kitaj: It's something we have at Christmas in the UK

    Aurora Kitaj: hold on

    Adams Dubrovna: Oh :)

    Aurora Kitaj:


    Aurora Kitaj: there we go

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Aurora

    Aurora Kitaj: Oh half my chat isn't coming out

    Scathach Rhiadra: I was at a panto here in SL a few weeks ago:)

    Adams Dubrovna: :)

    Aurora Kitaj: http://www.hackneyempire.co.uk/817/shows/mother-goose--hackney-empires-10th-anniversary-panto.html

    Aurora Kitaj: Mother Goose was the best thing I've ever

    seen at the theatre, really... the singing was out of this world

    Adams Dubrovna marvels...always something new learn :)

    Aurora Kitaj: it was brilliant, it is a traditional

    story of the triumph of good over evil specially for children and families

    Aurora Kitaj: this is very strange, chat is coming out in the wrong order lol]

    Adams Dubrovna: that happens sometimes

    Aurora Kitaj: what have you two been up to?

    Adams Dubrovna: I have been having a bit of an intense time of learning about myself :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: me, doing the housework, then I go to Tibetan language class here in SL

    Aurora Kitaj: Really?

    Aurora Kitaj: Tibetan, and self knowledge.. tell me more

    Scathach Rhiadra: I would like to hear about Adams' self knowledge:)

    Adams Dubrovna: It is kind of a long story

    Adams Dubrovna: :)

    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Jamie and fefonz :)

    Jamie Palisades: Good afternoon :)

    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Jamie, thanks for coming

    Jamie Palisades: May I join you?

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Jamie

    Aurora Kitaj: Just so you know that Play as Being sessions are recorded on chat log and then posted on a wiki

    Fefonz Quan: Hi everyone

    Adams Dubrovna: I had a rough time of it this fall and lost touch with what I had learned in PaB this summer.

    Aurora Kitaj: Hi FeFonz, thanks for coming along to


    Adams Dubrovna: I learned that I have two identities kind of on polar ends

    Aurora Kitaj: Listens

    Adams Dubrovna: While I was closely watching my thoughts

    Adams Dubrovna: I began to see memories that were not

    part of these identities

    Fefonz Quan: Hi Aurora :)

    Adams Dubrovna: I realized this morning when I woke up

    that that is the neutral level

    Adams Dubrovna: I was thrilled and excited

    Aurora Kitaj: so if you prefer to remain anonymous, just let me know

    Adams Dubrovna: Then all my selves and avatars began to act up

    Adams Dubrovna: wondering what that meant for them

    Adams Dubrovna: Over the course of the day I began to realize that I now have to find the neutral in the present

    Jamie Palisades muses on this a bit. I know that some friends in SL find multiple avatars a useful focus for different aspects of a personality that ... we must stuff into one body in the phsyical world.

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Kimbo, nice of you to come along to the session.

    Aurora Kitaj: You know about the fact that these sessions are recorded and posted up on our wiki

    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Kimbo

    Kimbo Scribe: Hello

    Aurora Kitaj: so if you would prefer to remain anonymous, just let me know. ;-)

    Jamie Palisades waves

    Kimbo Scribe: good to be here

    Aurora Kitaj: We are talking about different states of being. I wlll post you the chat before you arrived

    Kimbo Scribe: ok... please let me just observe the discussion for awhile

    Adams Dubrovna: I am afraid of I quieted everything down

    Fefonz Quan: adams - what did you mean by quieting down?

    Adams Dubrovna: I finsihed Fefonz

    Aurora Kitaj: Kimbo, we are happy to hear what you have to say.. but you are welome to observe too ;-)

    Jamie Palisades: mm - silence not necessarily a bad thing. Has its uses also. (grin)

    Kimbo Scribe: Thanks... this is all new to me..so I am appreciative of the opportunity to learn in a quiet way of observing and reading

    Scathach Rhiadra: quieting down can mean allowing

    everyone time to think

    Jamie Palisades: Aurora, I also might have missed some of the tone-setting beginning comments.

    Aurora Kitaj: for me, these sessions are also about having fun, enjoying what we do in a light hearted way. Yesterday I was

    Aurora Kitaj: ...hold on Jamie will send note card... you didn't miss much

    Aurora Kitaj: yes was with a friend yesterday evening. We were talking about what it meant to become older. She observed that as she grew older

    Aurora Kitaj: she found she was less concerned about what othe people thought

    Aurora Kitaj: and more with having fun

    Aurora Kitaj: and she found herself having more fun and enjoying life as a game

    Aurora Kitaj: it is not much fun being an angst wridden teenager

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Scathach Rhiadra: I like the idea of enjoying life as a game, not being so involved

    Jamie Palisades smiles - I adored it, actually, teenage years, but becoming more effective has been welcome too

    Jamie Palisades: What would it mean, to approach life as "a game" and thus *not* as we do otherwise?

    Jamie Palisades: To care less? (Jamie wrinkles his nose a bit)

    Aurora Kitaj: probaby a lot more successful, if weapproach every job interview as a game we would probably get every job 

    Aurora Kitaj: when the pressure is really on, it's hard to treat life as a game

    Fefonz Quan nods

    Kimbo Scribe: and what part of your identity do you lose when you are treating it as a game?

    Aurora Kitaj: stress?

    Fefonz Quan: and treating it as a game might result with being detouched, or feeling meaningless

    Aurora Kitaj: but the risk of being driven by stress alone is bad for me. Don't know about other people?

    Adams Dubrovna: I think there is a difference between being playful and treating life as a game

    Fefonz Quan nods

    Adams Dubrovna: Games have their own rules

    Adams Dubrovna: not necessarily the best way to see through identities

    Aurora Kitaj: well observed

    efonz Quan: right, games have the tendency to create identities...

    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Tarmel

    Fefonz Quan: hi Tarmel

    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Tarmel, nice to see you again. Will send note card

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel

    Tarmel Udimo: sorry time lag hi all

    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe we need a middle way, not so self obsessed, but not meaningless either

    Fefonz Quan: :)

    Adams Dubrovna: our neutral

    Fefonz Quan: that sounds familiar

    Fefonz Quan: "no nihilism, no eternalism" say the buddhists

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Fefonz Quan: i think it's one of the most difficult tasks - to be playful, but care about something,

    Fefonz Quan: to be involved - but let go when nessecary

    Adams Dubrovna: yes

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, avoiding the extremes

    Adams Dubrovna: or finding the extremes :)

    Adams Dubrovna: then letting go

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes

    Fefonz Quan: and the miracle that happens so rarely, is that when it happens, we get more able to connect to actions, feeling and emotions

    Fefonz Quan: it's a kind of paradox, to me...

    Tarmel Udimo: my computer seems to be playing up

    Adams Dubrovna: please say more Fefonz

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes do:)

    Fefonz Quan: since many times, the things that stop us from doing, feeling, rejoicing even

    Tarmel Udimo: I am going to log out and log in again

    Adams Dubrovna: OK Tarmel

    Fefonz Quan: are our fears,

    Fefonz Quan: our refusal to accept things that happen to us

    Fefonz Quan: so we fight reality instead of joining it, fully, in pleasure but also in pain at times

    Fefonz Quan: our misperceotion, 

    Kimbo Scribe: sorry ... must leave to provide RL child

    transportation... thanks

    Adams Dubrovna: bye Kimbo

    Kimbo Scribe: bye

    Fefonz Quan: so i feel that this fear, and other thought of "what was ought to be" (Jamie)

    Jamie Palisades: mmhmm?

    Fefonz Quan: create a distance between us and the reality, the being

    Adams Dubrovna: yes

    Fefonz Quan: (just quoted you jamie)

    Jamie Palisades nods, listens

    Fefonz Quan: and this "playfuness", acceptance, equinimity maybe

    Jamie Palisades: "driven by fears", or "stress" is an interesting concept ... I *think* that stress and fear are just instantions of things we think we ought to be doing, or avoiding ... so it's still being driven by your goals ... but perhaps internalized ones ... in a way that permits them to slip out of your conscious control.

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello FO, I will drop you a note card

    Fefonz Quan: if they succeed in tearing apart some of

    those curtains of fear and expectation and hopes even

    Fefonz Quan: bye kimbo

    Jamie Palisades: cheers, nice to meet you

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Kimbo

    Fefonz Quan: then they result in getting us closer to that reality of ours,

    Fefonz Quan: those experiences, emotions and actions that we do

    Fefonz Quan: but that is very hard to achieve,

    Fefonz Quan: i think

    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, it is very hard to break down the walls

    Fefonz Quan: yet i can see how they act on us

    Fefonz Quan: how can we really love, if we are afraid of losing it on every moment?

    Fefonz Quan: how can we be content, if we feel that we lack so many things

    Fefonz Quan: ?

    Adams Dubrovna: yes

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Adams Dubrovna: our identites are concerned just with themselves and can not love

    Adams Dubrovna: and hard to be content when they are clamoring for attention

    Adams Dubrovna: Hi Pila

    Fefonz Quan: yes, i think i know tht feeling ;-)

    Pila Mulligan: greetings

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Pila, nice to see you again. I will

    Pila Mulligan: I hope everyone is well and happy

    Adams Dubrovna: Thanks Pila. Hope you are too :)

    Pila Mulligan: yep :)

    Jamie Palisades: Hm. Love is more difficult if one is afraid of losing it?

    Adams Dubrovna thinks English should have more than one word for love

    Jamie Palisades: :)

    Aurora Kitaj: and German

    Adams Dubrovna: :)

    FO: In german we also only have one word "Liebe"

    Adams Dubrovna: Ja

    Fefonz Quan: i think so jamie

    Aurora Kitaj: I've been told that there is a difference between falling in love and love itself, and that the falling in love is a lesser love

    Aurora Kitaj: I probably have a lot of chat about it somewhere ;-*

    Jamie Palisades: :) a lesser love. I like that phrase

    Aurora Kitaj: I don't

    Aurora Kitaj: like 'puppy love'

    Jamie Palisades: does it mislead?

    Adams Dubrovna: I was thinking more in terms of love for human beings in general

    Aurora Kitaj: words can have their meanings manipulated to suit the occassion

    Aurora Kitaj: whether something is to be a positive or a negative

    Aurora Kitaj: is open to interpetation

    Jamie Palisades smiles slowly. Can't disagree with that, but they are what we have, words.

    Scathach Rhiadra: is there not a difference between unconditional love and loving to be loved in return?

    Aurora Kitaj: yes

    Fefonz Quan: a big difference, but the second one seems so natural

    Jamie Palisades: certainty Scath - but you just clearly described both, so the words seem not to be getting in our way :)

    Adams Dubrovna: yes, and even in love between partners there is a neutral level which is more permanent beyond the positive passions

    and negative jealousies

    Aurora Kitaj: i've been told that one love is blind and deaf, that is unconditional love

    Aurora Kitaj: and that is a 'lesser love'

    Scathach Rhiadra: but unconditional love is very hard to achieve, I think

    Aurora Kitaj: and that love with you eye's open is true

    love, or words to that affect

    Fefonz Quan nods

    Fefonz Quan: (to scatch)

    Aurora Kitaj: I don't happen to agree

    Adams Dubrovna: Unconditional love exists alongside the conditional parts I think

    Adams Dubrovna: they are all there together

    Aurora Kitaj: yes, but giving value judgements to the strength or rightiousness of one over another is unhelpful I feel

    Adams Dubrovna: value judgements?

    Fefonz Quan: I will have to leave this fascinating discussion, it's past midnight here:-\

    Adams Dubrovna: night fefonz :)

    Jamie Palisades: be well :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Fefonz, namasté

    FO: good night

    Fefonz Quan: noght all, hope to see your insights in the wiki site

    Aurora Kitaj: Fefonz, thanks so much for coming along

    Aurora Kitaj: night

    Fefonz Quan: namaste :)

    Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz

    Pila Mulligan: and then there is filia, eros and agape -- in the non-English world of love-word-descriptions

    Aurora Kitaj: oh?

    Pila Mulligan: love of one's sibilings/fellows, sexual

    love and divine love

    Aurora Kitaj: what would the divine love be for an atheist, how should I feel this?

    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

    Aurora Kitaj: should I look at the universe and use this love?

    Pila Mulligan: maybe unconditional love is close to agape

    Jamie Palisades smiles

    Jamie Palisades: Well, it was a rhetorical question, Aurora, but yes.

    Aurora Kitaj: ahhhh

    Jamie Palisades: A related one might be "how can I do so while still feeling safe?"

    Jamie Palisades: heh

    Aurora Kitaj: Thanks for clarifying these different states Pila

    Adams Dubrovna: Interesting question about agape and atheists

    Adams Dubrovna: maybe it is the wonder we feel at the birth of a child

    Aurora Kitaj: yes

    Adams Dubrovna: or the wonder we feel when we look at the stars

    Adams Dubrovna: or when Spring comes and the flowers open to the sun

    Aurora Kitaj: We can reject everything else: religion, ideology, all received wisdom. But we cannot escape the necessity of love and compassion....This, then, is my true religion, my simple faith. In this sense, there is no need for temple or church, for mosque or synagogue, no need for complicated philosophy, doctrine or dogma. Our own heart, our own mind, is the temple. The doctrine is compassion. Love for others and respect for their rights and dignity, no matter who or what they are: ultimately these are all we need. So long as we practice these in our daily lives, then no matter if we are learned or unlearned, whether we believe in Buddha or God, or follow some other religion or none at all, as long as we have compassion for others and conduct ourselves with restraint out of a sense of responsibility, there is no doubt we will be happy. ~ Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama ~

    Adams Dubrovna: wb Tarmel

    Aurora Kitaj: I feel a quote coming on...

    Aurora Kitaj: hello again Tarmel

    Adams Dubrovna: I must go to RL. bye everyone. Thanks for the chat :)

    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel

    Pila Mulligan: bye Adams

    Scathach Rhiadra: night adams

    Aurora Kitaj: thanks for your contribution Adams

    Pila Mulligan: I have a feeling that agape is cloesly related to what Hindus call ananda -- or bliss

    Pila Mulligan: being very happy :)

    Pila Mulligan: so to speak

    Aurora Kitaj: what about the questions about what is making the lover happy,

    Jamie Palisades: well, that's compassion, Aurora.

    Pila Mulligan: in the Hindu phrase sat chit ananda, the answer would be reality

    Pila Mulligan: reality makes them happy

    Aurora Kitaj: I'm told that we must love out selves and not be reliant on he love of others

    Pila Mulligan: we ourselves must love, to rephrase it

    Jamie Palisades smiles- oh dear, I'm in trouble then.

    Anonymous: hey what are u doing here

    Anonymous: are u budist

    Aurora Kitaj: sorry?

    Anonymous: norry?

    Aurora Kitaj: hello Anonymous

    Anonymous: hello

    Anonymous: :)

    Pila Mulligan: love

    Anonymous: i love you

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Anonymous: ok. nice to meet you all

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    bazalt Solo: what is the discussion subject

    Aurora Kitaj: I've sent Anonymous the wiki and note card

    Anonymous: yes i am new

    Anonymous: hmmm

    Aurora Kitaj: have you received those Anonymous?

    Jamie Palisades: gone, I think, Aurora

    Scathach Rhiadra: I think he is gone Aurora:

    Pila Mulligan: Tarmel seems to be having problems getting here

    Aurora Kitaj: oh, i'm too slow off the mark...

    Aurora Kitaj: hehehehe

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Pila Mulligan: nice to visit with everyone -- I also mustvbe going now

    Aurora Kitaj: well I think if eveyrone agrees, we should call it a day

    Scathach Rhiadra: ok, night Pila

    Pila Mulligan: bye bye

    Aurora Kitaj: so thanks for coming everyone, I'll do my best to get the chat log up on the wiki asap...

    FO: good night to all of you

    Jamie Palisades smiles. nice to meet you all, Thank you for sharing the time and thoughts.

    Scathach Rhiadra: night FO

    Aurora Kitaj: this evenings discusssion has been really interesting

    Scathach Rhiadra: night Aurora, Jaime, namaste

    Aurora Kitaj: thanks for your contibutions everyone

    Aurora Kitaj: Night scath,

    Aurora Kitaj: Thanks for coming along FO, it's really nice to see you after all this time

    FO: ...you are hitting your bed?

    Aurora Kitaj: and the same for Jamie, who I think we've met just once before

    Jamie Palisades smiles. be well.

    Aurora Kitaj: great of you to come along and for you contribution.

    Jamie Palisades smiles and waves

    Aurora Kitaj: Jamie are you ok about having your name


    Jamie Palisades: Hm?

    Aurora Kitaj: on the chat log

    Jamie Palisades: certainly

    Aurora Kitaj: fab!

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core