2009.01.14 01:00 - Sacrifice and Psychosis

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    Tarmel Udimo was Guardian, and the comments are hers. When I got there Fael and Crusty were already there and launched into talking about working....

    Tarmel Udimo: hey there Fael & Crusty
    Fael Illyar: So, what's up today?
    Crusty Goldshark: Today I thought was tomorrow
    Crusty Goldshark: Got all ready for what I was doing tomorrow and found out it was today
    Fael Illyar: Oh, that's interesting :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm
    Fael Illyar: So, lots of free time now that it isn't tomorrow already?
    Crusty Goldshark: Perhaps . . .
    Crusty Goldshark: How about you guys?
    Fael Illyar: Well, you can always fill free time with things and it becomes not free time :P
    Fael Illyar: I'm sort of working while here. The work is just mostly waiting at the moment :)
    Tarmel Udimo: well I'm working on not filling time and trying to start the year by not getting stressed and anxious about work :-)
    Crusty Goldshark: Good plan tamel
    Tarmel Udimo: yes hoping it will work
    Crusty Goldshark: You should play at work and work at play :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, very good plan :)
    Tarmel Udimo: trying
    Fael Illyar: There's this interesting thing that you can act as if in a hurry even though you're not in a hurry in your mind :)
    Crusty Goldshark: I often wonder about 'trying' when taking it easy . . . how does that work?
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Fael Illyar: afterall, it's the being in a hurry in your mind part that makes for the stress :)
    Crusty Goldshark: I would do the reverse - no matter how busy - slow down
    Tarmel Udimo: yes that's what i'm doing, bceuase the reality is that the work gets done.
    Crusty Goldshark: yep - it gets done but how you are involved in the equation is a matter of ease or stress
    Tarmel Udimo: exactly and i'm working on the ease bit
    Crusty Goldshark: Well I like to extend ease and Love to tasks - it is an extension of mind and yoga practice

    I then asked Crusty about guardianship and whether he had considered being one since he was there all the time and seemed to be keen to participate in PaB


    Crusty Goldshark: Yes I am a guardian but only of myself - and an unfit one at that - if you mean P&B - no
    Tarmel Udimo: we sure could use the help.
    Crusty Goldshark: It is very dangerous to give me responsibility - We might have compulsory bathing in the fountain and who knows what - but that not withstanding - yes
    Fael Illyar: :P
    Tarmel Udimo: We need some bathing in the fountain..
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it's refreshing sometimes :)
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Crusty Goldshark: Also cushion combat as an enacment of Dharma combat and so on . . .
    Tarmel Udimo: yes that too
    Crusty Goldshark: Lion sacrifice?
    Tarmel Udimo: will not sure about that being one myself...
    Crusty Goldshark: LOL
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Tarmel Udimo: unless you mean I get to eat av's as opposed to be eaten well then okay
    Crusty Goldshark: Not sure how I would go about that - sacrifice might be something I will have to give up - so to speak . . .

    We then moved onto the meaning of sacrifice and psychosis

    Tarmel Udimo: not sure in what context you mean?
    Fael Illyar: to whom are you sacrificing to?
    Crusty Goldshark: I might have to sacrifice the idea of Lion sacrifice . . .
    Tarmel Udimo: well maybe and maybe not
    Crusty Goldshark: Not to but from - sacrifice is something you give up not something you give to - well in the sense I would use it . . .
    Fael Illyar: Ah, that makes more sense
    Fael Illyar: but ... somehow doesn't fit the word sacrifice if you ask me...
    Crusty Goldshark: I have started a page on the WiiWay - spiritual practice on computer consoles
    Tarmel Udimo: WiiWay?
    Crusty Goldshark: Well fael I will sacrifice my meaning to some other :)
    Tarmel Udimo: scarifice its such a loaded word
    Crusty Goldshark: Based on WuWei - a Taoist term - using the Wii Fit to practice yoga and zazen
    Crusty Goldshark: Loaded words are powerful - we get worked up over words and ideas - sometimes as much as the actual events
    Fael Illyar: Although, I don't have any personal meaning for the word sacrifice, I pretty much don't use the word for describing anything...
    Fael Illyar: All I have is how I've seen others using it.
    Tarmel Udimo: and yet its used in religion alot
    Crusty Goldshark: Peopl;e often use words on one level - traditionally in Sufism they have 7 levels of meaning
    Fael Illyar: I guess I'd just say "I give foo up" instead of "I sacrifice foo" ... same meaning, less room for misunderstanding, sounds less impressive :P
    Crusty Goldshark: The religious use is akin to the concept of 'God bribery'
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Crusty Goldshark: It is the lowest form of sacrifice
    Crusty Goldshark: Ascetism is another form of sacrifice
    Tarmel Udimo: and yet if done with good intentions it can be powerful
    Tarmel Udimo: yes like ascetism
    Fael Illyar: Yes, God Bribery is not really giving up something in a way. You're kind of expecting something back.
    Crusty Goldshark: Powerfully good intentions can be ludicrous - rememeber that nutter (I think it was Isaac) who was going to sacrifice his son to God?
    Crusty Goldshark: That is not sacrifice - it is spiritual trading
    Crusty Goldshark: apart from the carnage
    Crusty Goldshark: Was it the aztecs who enjoyed placating the sun? 
    Tarmel Udimo: on one level i agree but I think for Issac because he believed or had faith he was looking at the scarifice differently
    Crusty Goldshark: Good intended nonsense?
    Tarmel Udimo: and anyway it's a morality tale - if you love god enough you'd be willing to sacrifice your own son
    Tarmel Udimo: it was a test
    Crusty Goldshark: Or what about the Buddha in a previous incarnation sacrificing his life to feed a starving tigress . . . ridiculous insane behaviour
    Tarmel Udimo: do you really think that crusty?
    Crusty Goldshark: You think God tests us by asking us to sacrifice children? Please . . .
    Fael Illyar: umm... perhaps "sacrificing his life to feed a starving tigress" is just a fancy way of saying "I got tired of life and decided to move on to the next one."?
    Crusty Goldshark: Give these individuals personality tests and they would be psychotic
    Tarmel Udimo: I don't believe in God or religious versions of God, so really I am trying to see in context of the age in which these words were written
    Tarmel Udimo: that could be true fael
    Crusty Goldshark: Isaac heard voices, he tries to kill his son and somehow develops a bit of sanity
    Crusty Goldshark: Buddha as a Child kills himself and his family grieve - a hurtful and unneccessary action and it gives the wrong message to Buddhist children
    Fael Illyar: except, he wasn't regarded as a Buddha at the time.
    Crusty Goldshark: He was a Boddhisattvah and stream entrant
    Crusty Goldshark: and clearly deluded
    Crusty Goldshark: He should have kept the memory quiete :)
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Tarmel Udimo: do you think all religion is dellusional?
    Fael Illyar: Well, don't we all like to reminisce on all the crazy things we've done?
    Tarmel Udimo: good point fael
    Crusty Goldshark: People do not question these nonsense tales - therefore the priesthood get away with preaching them as virtue rather than the vice they really hide :)
    Fael Illyar: how do you know he intended it to be used for preaching?
    Crusty Goldshark: Religious sentiment is not unreal - just as psychosis is not unreal - just as SL is not unreal
    Crusty Goldshark: The value is something we need to explore :)
    Crusty Goldshark: I think we have very little idea what the Buddha said or preached or was like - many of the original orders died out and the traditions were oral for 400 years - plenty of time for stange stories to emerge
    Crusty Goldshark: In fact of the original 11 Buddhist orders (I believe it was) only one still remains - the Elders or Theravadin tradition . . .
    Fael Illyar: Yes, things tend to end.
    Crusty Goldshark: I wonder if you feel religion is about craziness or Truth?
    Fael Illyar: why not both?
    Crusty Goldshark: How would you answer your own question?
    Fael Illyar: it's not meant to be answered :P
    Tarmel Udimo: you've done a lot of research crusty and so now after all that research what do you think ?
    Fael Illyar: (it's just supposed to point out how you only see two choices)
    Tarmel Udimo: good point fael
    Crusty Goldshark: I believe there is room for the paradoxical or crazy as and when it is part of a higher truth. When it is part of human psychosis it should be labled as what it is. Crazy wisdom masters are often devious and dangerous people and if so should be called out - not venerated
    Crusty Goldshark: The truth (for example in quantum physics) is utterly crazy and yet it is an emerging model of reality
    Crusty Goldshark: Crazy people, artists and so on are to be valued and cherished but we have to be aware that their visions may reflect internal process rather than verifiable or real knowledge
    Tarmel Udimo: what is real knowledge?
    Crusty Goldshark: So for example psychics I have little time or interest in - what do you feel?
    Crusty Goldshark: Real Knowledge improves the situation for the individual, the environment and society they are in. Sacrificing people to the sun may create a cohesive (and fear based) society but is hardly real knowledge . . .
    Fael Illyar: as for fear based societies ... All I know of are such.
    Crusty Goldshark: Do you think - there was a society in Afghanistan based around resovoirs of water - they had no deities and no war on on their pictorial remains - they are gone and hardly studied - they seemed to spend a lot of time playing . . .
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm I often think about what will be left and remembered and what will remain hidden and forgotten
    Crusty Goldshark: You might also be aware of communes or spiritual communities that are not fear based?
    Fael Illyar: Well, PaB doesn't seem fear based to me but ... well, suppose that's a society too. Just rather small one.
    Tarmel Udimo: No its doesn't to me either
    Crusty Goldshark: Size seems to be important - after a certain size we develop heirarchy :)
    Fael Illyar: I think it's somewhere around 150. The limit
    Crusty Goldshark: :)
    Fael Illyar: although, for virtual ones it might be lower since people tend to be part of more than just one.
    Crusty Goldshark: Have to go - bye
    Crusty Goldshark: ;)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Crusty :)
    Crusty Goldshark is Offline
    Tarmel Udimo: bye

    Crusty had to go and Fael and I chatted about her latest outfit and then it was time for both of us to go. 

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