2009.01.23 07:00 - Recording, Rashumon and Rocks

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.


    Susi, Fael, Stargate and me were present in the beginning of the session. And i learned how to use the pool recorder.


    Fefonz Quan: Hello Susi
    Susi Alcott: Hello Fefonz
    Susi Alcott: thinking that we have not met yet
    Fefonz Quan: Het Fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz, Susi :)
    Susi Alcott: have we ?
    Fefonz Quan: Hey*
    Susi Alcott: Hi Fael
    Fefonz Quan: nice suit, Fael :)
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you Fefonz.'
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: Ah, are you covering for Quen today, Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: i guess, she asked for and i volunteered, not got no donfirmation from here about it
    Fefonz Quan: confirmation*
    Fael Illyar: that's not usually needed :)
    Fael Illyar: you don't ask unless you can't come :)
    Fael Illyar: but if so, please click the recorder in the middle of the pool and select Claim from the menu it gives.
    Fefonz Quan: yeah, i supposed so
    Fefonz Quan: i see no claim in the menu (right-=click i did)
    Fael Illyar: oh, I mean left click
    Fefonz Quan: oh, new feature :)
    Fael Illyar: There, now it will IM you a link to the recorded log when the session is over :)
    Fefonz Quan: (mostly i record it just by recording chat feature to a file)


    Stargate Tone joins the session, and brings up the pc person definition

    Fael Illyar: Hi Star :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi star
    Stargate Tone: Hello Fefonz
    Stargate Tone: Hello Fael and Susi
    Stargate Tone: ...did I interrupt something ?
    Fael Illyar: How are you finding PaB (and SL) Fefonz? You seemed rather reluctant when I was helping you create an SL account.
    Fefonz Quan: well, i don't think i was reluctant towards PaB , maybe just having some troubles with the first steps in SL
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's always a bit of a plunge :)
    Fefonz Quan: i really enjoy the group sessions, the prastice and the discussions
    Fefonz Quan: though concerning second life, i am still ignorant about most features within it
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that takes some effort to learn :)
    Fael Illyar: I found it rather enjoyable creating a look for myself though :)
    Stargate Tone: are you a pc person Fefonz ?
    Fefonz Quan: i can tell :)
    Fefonz Quan: define pc person?
    Stargate Tone: ...define...to be more specific ?
    Stargate Tone: sry my lag in enlish...
    Stargate Tone: anglish
    Fael Illyar: I guess that means someone adept with computers :)
    Stargate Tone: english
    Fael Illyar: yes, define asks for an explanation of what something means
    Stargate Tone: that you know about how to use pc programms or create them or even them pc's themselves
    Stargate Tone: such persons I call to be a pc person...as I have not much idea but only as much that I have been able to survive in SL :)***
    Fefonz Quan: well, as you see i survive :)
    Stargate Tone: ah...that can be taken two ways dear :)***
    Fefonz Quan: as a physicist and a worker inhigh-tech companies, i use pc's a lot
    Stargate Tone: sry...I'm such talkeable lag in SL :)**
    Stargate Tone: so you are the pc person :)***
    Fefonz Quan: what the other way ?
    Fefonz Quan: not at all,
    Stargate Tone: that You have managed to survive like me even if Your not the pc person :)***
    Fefonz Quan: the word registry sends me to the IT roup :-)
    Fefonz Quan: group*
    Fael Illyar: well, you could read surviving to mean just barely getting by or getting along great.
    Stargate Tone: yea * that too *
    Stargate Tone: indeed *
    Stargate Tone: so that is to be 'read' with many different ways *:)***
    Stargate Tone: well...I just got much interests to you ; sry my curiosity :)***
    Fefonz Quan: no problem Starg :)
    Stargate Tone: Thank You *
    Stargate Tone: ...jumps gladly all over the area in her mind :)***
    Fefonz Quan: well, there are people here that can do it with their avatars too, but not me, considering our previous lines :)
    Fefonz Quan: (the jumping)
    Stargate Tone: ah
    Fael Illyar: Every system takes a while to learn :)
    Fael Illyar: and that won't happen unless yo want to learn.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, the issue is how much time you want to invest


    Star do the e-dance, and Fael finds out it is blocked for PaB persons...

    Stargate Tone: just stand up and press the button 'e'
    Fael Illyar: yes, but it's also possible to learn much by keeping your eyes open :)
    Fefonz Quan: well, no e here
    Stargate Tone: in the keyboard
    Fael Illyar: perhaps she meant w?
    Fael Illyar: e gets you flying
    Fael Illyar: or jumping if you just press it fast
    Stargate Tone: no; e
    Stargate Tone: yes
    Stargate Tone: sry
    Stargate Tone: fast yes
    Fefonz Quan: not for me
    Fefonz Quan: eeeeee
    Stargate Tone: ah; U need also to click beside the chat window at first
    Fael Illyar: oh interesting, the autologger listeners prevent jumping :)
    Fefonz Quan: nope
    Stargate Tone: U see; I'm no good to use any gestures; so I needed to learn to show my joy with an other way
    Stargate Tone: ohh...
    Fael Illyar humms cutely.
    Stargate Tone: ..hmm...
    Stargate Tone: but not me, cuz I'm no member ???
    Stargate Tone: ah...I see that I neither jump as high as normally...
    Fefonz Quan: So Fael, the recorder keeps us from fooling sround? :)
    Fael Illyar: yes, the autologger needs some tweaking so the listeners aren't right above your head
    Stargate Tone: hm...what about if ppl would like to jump here ?
    Fael Illyar: I want to fix that though :P
    Fael Illyar: no reason to prevent people from doing things :)
    Stargate Tone: Love you :)***
    Stargate Tone: ah,...maybe I fullfilled my job today; found out a lag...:)***
    Fael Illyar: I temporarily fixed it for you Star
    Stargate Tone: that's been much of my job in SL ; specially in the beginning :)***
    Stargate Tone: ahhh
    Stargate Tone: wonderfull
    Fael Illyar: but next time it'll still do that.
    Stargate Tone: ok
    Stargate Tone: thank you for this present *
    Fael Illyar: unless I fix the recorder object
    Stargate Tone: wanna jump for this Fefionz :)***
    Fael Illyar: actually... Wol needs to do that, I can't quite do it
    Stargate Tone: understand
    Fael Illyar: SL item permissions are often in the way :)
    Fael Illyar: and of course, we can't bypass them even when there's no harm in it
    Fefonz Quan: well, i see you pc persons have your interests
    Stargate Tone: btw Fofonz; most of the ppl has understood that I'm joyfull when I jump around....but not all...specially them who's genious to use SL' s gestures well...
    Fefonz Quan: genious?
    Stargate Tone: ah; I'm no pc peroson....I'm 'out like a snowman'


    And the 'genious pc person' goes to Fael

    Stargate Tone: Fael is genious pc person * too *
    Fael Illyar gasps.
    Stargate Tone: as well as he's genious in very many things *
    Fefonz Quan: i see you flash, fael :)
    Fael Illyar: flash?
    Stargate Tone: yea; he's not used to get thanx...as that is with so many ppl who truely are genious...
    Fefonz Quan: blush?
    Stargate Tone: yea
    Stargate Tone: that I also understood :)***
    Fefonz Quan: well, sorry for the wrong wording
    Stargate Tone: so Fefonz, see how we speak from heart to heart :)***
    Fefonz Quan: what does the *** mean?
    Fael Illyar: You got the blush without me giving a direct expression here about it :)
    Fael Illyar giggles cutely.
    Stargate Tone: even you didn't use the rihgt word, I understood what you ment
    Fefonz Quan: yep
    Stargate Tone: so; you also are the healer :)***
    Fael Illyar: I guess I was distracted too much with the words :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Solo :)
    Stargate Tone: or maybe it was Ur 'job' to guide the topic :)***
    Susi Alcott: hi Solo
    Fefonz Quan: ar you taling to me?
    Fefonz Quan: :)


    Solobill joins us, and Stargate leaves

    Fefonz Quan: Hi SOlo
    Stargate Tone: Hello Solobill :)***
    Solobill Laville: Hi, everyone :)
    Stargate Tone: the 'guiding' was ment to Fael :)***
    Stargate Tone: didn't mean the official
    Susi Alcott: _/!+_
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Stargate Tone: ahh...but ...gotta go again; was so nice to see you *
    Stargate Tone: Have good time beloved ones *
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Star
    Fael Illyar: See you later Star :)
    Stargate Tone: **
    Fefonz Quan: Bye StarGate, nice to meet you
    Susi Alcott: _/!+_
    Fael Illyar sighs.
    Susi Alcott: lol
    Fael Illyar just wanted an excuse to use this gesture :P
    Solobill Laville: good excuse :)
    Susi Alcott: well; star may be a handfull sometimes
    Fefonz Quan: it's funny, i see Faels's message and then here it a few second after it
    Solobill Laville: SOunds like lag Fefonz
    Fael Illyar: It takes a moment for the soundfile to transfer :)
    Fael Illyar: text takes much less space so it comes faster :)
    Fefonz Quan: like the thunder after the lighning :)


    Fael shouts japanese words, Solo watches japanese films

    Fael Illyar: Hai!
    Fefonz Quan: lightning
    Fael Illyar: (that's yes in Japanese if someone didn't know it)
    Fefonz Quan Hai!
    Solobill Laville just watched 3 Kurasawa films over the last 3 days :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: which was good?
    Fael Illyar would kind of like to ask which ones but hasn't seen any so not much point.
    Solobill Laville: hehe, they are all good, I watched Ran, Rashoman, and Dreams
    Solobill Laville: Very beautiful Stylistically
    Fefonz Quan: Well, i tought rashumon itself is 3 movies
    Solobill Laville: Colors, cinematography, etc
    Solobill Laville: No, just one, and rather short, 70-80 minutes I'd guess
    Solobill Laville: Ran is a doosy, 3 hours


    Kurasawa's Rashumon brings up the many points of view issue.

    Fefonz Quan: (i meant the various points of view, ...)
    Solobill Laville: Ah! Yes! Then actually four POVs...
    Fefonz Quan: dreams is the one with the picture coming to life, and some child there?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, just beautiful
    Fefonz Quan: well, somehow it floated to my mind, those images, though i think i saw it many uears ago
    Solobill Laville: And all very relevant to Japanese life post-WWII
    Solobill Laville: anyway...was there a topic you were discussing?
    Fefonz Quan: nope, unless my inadaptcy in SL is considered a topic fo you ;-)
    Solobill Laville: lol
    Fefonz Quan: but the many POV subject can be a lead here
    Solobill Laville: yes, the point of the movie was that "truth" is quite subjective, in a relative-world sense
    Solobill Laville: Also, I think, that we don't really know our deepest
    Solobill Laville: intentions without truly exploring them
    Fefonz Quan: so when we come to explore reality, like we do here, comparing these POV's can be very interesting
    Fefonz Quan: if we see things differently - what is "real"
    Solobill Laville: Oh, yes, especially with those whose are quite different from our own
    Fefonz Quan: and moreover - when there are think=gs we can agree upon happened are they more real?
    Solobill Laville: Good question
    Susi Alcott: what does this POV mean ?
    Solobill Laville: Point of view, sorry Susi
    Susi Alcott: np
    Susi Alcott: ty
    Solobill Laville: same thing as perspective
    Fefonz Quan: it is easy to comprehend that each of us remember different things, but that can be just as errors in sensing
    Solobill Laville: yes, and "errors" in memory, yes?
    Solobill Laville: we tend to remember what we want to
    Fefonz Quan: yes, memory too
    Solobill Laville: (and forget the things like, we were really mean that one time, etc.)
    Fefonz Quan: yes. so that is interesting on the psychological level.
    Fefonz Quan: but if we try to put them aside and look at the things we agree upon - are they "objectively" real?
    Fefonz Quan: is they are, there is a meaning to objective reality,
    Solobill Laville: Rigth
    Solobill Laville: *Right
    Solobill Laville: But I'd tend to think
    Solobill Laville: They most of the time
    Solobill Laville: they are actually just "multi-subjective" realities, in other words
    Solobill Laville: all of our own ideas, separately thrown together,
    Solobill Laville: but still each ours
    Solobill Laville: Sliding scale though...on some things don't we get more "objectively" agreed upon?
    Fefonz Quan: i think we do. natural science surely will agree that there is an objective reality
    Fefonz Quan: that we should all agree upon


    Solo elaborates about the realms of "real phenomena" and "contemplative phenomena"

    Solobill Laville: Yes, agreed, within that realm of "natural phenonoma"
    Fefonz Quan: so what realm is left for our conciousness
    Solobill Laville: But what of 'contemplative phenomena"?
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Fael Illyar: those are rather difficult to show to someone else :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes they are
    Solobill Laville: Right :)
    Fefonz Quan: and are those realms orthogonal? what'natural phenomena (NP)' can't be CP?
    Fefonz Quan: and how does CP, influence NP?
    Solobill Laville: Maybe they are...but point is they are not exclusive of each other, imho
    Solobill Laville: All part of the "complete universe"
    Fael Illyar: any line drawn is a line in water.
    Fefonz Quan: but if NP is controled by physical laws, how can they be interrupted by CP?
    Susi Alcott: sorry
    Susi Alcott: got again RL call
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: Ah, bye Susi :)
    Fefonz Quan: np Susi
    Fefonz Quan: Bye
    Fael Illyar: what are these physical laws you speak of?
    Fael Illyar: What makes them the primary force?
    Fefonz Quan: you know, gravity, electromagnetism, etc.
    Fefonz Quan: i didn't say primary
    Fael Illyar: yes, that's my interpretation from what you said
    Fael Illyar: the sentence has the assumption behind it that physical laws are absolute.
    Fael Illyar: (at least sounds like it)
    Fefonz Quan: well, i was counting on "things that we all agree of"
    Solobill Laville: Maybe the point is that physical laws that Fef is referring to act as "objective" reality in the NP realm


    objectivity, physical rules and falling rocks are mixed together here. Even some strings are getting involved.

    Fefonz Quan: so we all will agree that a rock falls
    Fefonz Quan: yes, thaks Solo
    Fael Illyar: physical laws are an attempt at modeling what happens in nature.
    Fael Illyar: Not something that governs nature.
    Fael Illyar: and rather imperfect still.
    Fefonz Quan: i agree, an attempt, but if they apply all the times (a rock will fall the same on the same conditions)
    Fefonz Quan: there is something "objective " about it
    Fael Illyar: yes but to say CP can't affect NP is to assume somethng about th conditions.
    Solobill Laville: To me, the danger comes in concepts such as "controlled" or "interrupted"
    Solobill Laville: Not because there is anything inherenly "wrong" with them...
    Fefonz Quan: i didn't say CP can't affect NP, but if it can, it should be notes and experienced
    Fael Illyar: Yes, of course
    Fefonz Quan: noted
    Solobill Laville: But it is adding to things, where perhaps nothing needs to be added
    Fefonz Quan: so, if we take a crude experiment, can my CP change the path of the rock falling?
    Fefonz Quan: what's adding to things?'
    Solobill Laville: Well, speculating on if your CP can change the path of the rock falling
    Fael Illyar: that experiment is way too broad
    Fefonz Quan: i am open to refinements :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, the broadness comes from the term CP
    Fael Illyar: it's rather broad :)
    Fefonz Quan: well, CP came up as somthing that is subjective, thus is hard to be agreed upon between different subjects
    Solobill Laville: AND, is CP empirical or rational?
    Fefonz Quan: or both?
    Fefonz Quan: surely it is empirical, in the way that i experience it right now
    Fefonz Quan: exactly like asking is "Being" empirical?
    Solobill Laville: That question has way too many strings attached to even get started :)
    Solobill Laville: Acctually, it can't evenn apply as a question
    Fefonz Quan: i thoguht those are the strings we like to play the most here :-)
    Solobill Laville: Of course!
    Solobill Laville: That may be a good one to begin a session with... ;)
    Fefonz Quan: or continue with
    Solobill Laville: right
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Solobill Laville: I think a great deal of that discussion may be trying to figure out what the question actually is
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's a lot of the trouble :)
    Fael Illyar: figuring out the question :)
    Fefonz Quan: the conflict between an "objective" world, that follows some rules and can be agreed upon many observers, to the subjective experience that is very hardly agreed upon, if possible, is the question to my opinion
    Fefonz Quan: without taking any of the worlds as primary, starting with each of them results in interuoting (up to destroying) the other
    Solobill Laville: Sounds like the Ways of Knowing discussion last night...maybe you should join in ;)
    Fefonz Quan: i am on the email group :)
    Fefonz Quan: thoguh didn't read that one
    Solobill Laville: http://groups.google.com/group/kira-...d836825b?hl=en
    Solobill Laville: oh, ok, then you don't nee the link...
    Solobill Laville: BUt, that is the topic, scientific knowledge in relation to "other" ways of knowing...
    Solobill Laville: Thrusdays at 2:00 pm SLT...
    Solobill Laville: but good to discuss here as well!
    Fefonz Quan: ok, it's a good link, still we can talk here i uess
    Solobill Laville hastens to add
    Fefonz Quan: :) o on
    Fefonz Quan: go*
    Solobill Laville: Well, actually I think I must be off....
    Solobill Laville: How are things around you in RL now, Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: well, snowy but sunny in Princeton
    Solobill Laville: Ah, didn't know you were back!
    Fefonz Quan: yep.
    Fael Illyar: See you later Solo :)
    Fael Illyar: (if you're leaving)
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Bye Fael, Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Bye solo :)
    Fael Illyar: I guess I'll go as well, see you later :) You'll get the link to the log once you leave the pavilion or if you click the recorder and click stop
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Fael, good to see you :)
    Fael Illyar: You too :)

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