2009.01.27 01:00 - The Power of Self-Conversation

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    I, Pema, was the guardian this night.  I took the title from the very end of the chat log, where Fael and Artemisia talk about the power of hearing others saying what you already sort-of knew, but then get focused on more.  Can you provide that kind of service to yourself, reminding yourself of what you already sort-of knew?  I think you can . . .

    When I arrived, Fael had just joined Susi.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Susi :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Susi Alcott: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Fael and Susi!
    Fael Illyar: have you tried claiming the log yet?
    Pema Pera: No, I have had no time to look into that yet
    Pema Pera: The last few days have been extremely busy for me, since I'm approaching the end of my two-months stay in Japan, and I'm tying up all the loose ends that I can find . . . .
    Fael Illyar: It's 2 clicks during the meeting :)
    Fael Illyar: first left-click on the recorder, then select Claim from the menu it gives.
    Fael Illyar: then you'll receive a link to the log in IM once the meeting is over.
    Fael Illyar: (that is, when someone Stops the recording, or everyone leaves)
    Pema Pera: sorry, RL interruption, back again ;)
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Susi!
    Pema Pera: ah, so I should click before the meeting starts, Fael?
    Fael Illyar: Any time during the meeting
    Pema Pera: ah, and then I also get the part before I clicked, I mean everything from the beginning
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Pema Pera: okay, just did that, thank you!
    Pema Pera: great, that will make life a lot simpler!
    Pema Pera: (I saw your earlier email, last week, just hadn't had time to catch up -- still a few hundred emails behind . . . (>_<) )
    Susi gave me some snapshoys about an earlier meeting, 2008/01/26, 7 am SLT it turned out.
    Susi Alcott: gave the snapshots thinking that You'de like to see because at least to me it was very unusual meeting :)))
    Fael Illyar: Wol thought it would be good to have the recorder nag every few minutes if no-one has claimed the meeting. I tend to agree.
    Fael Illyar: just needs some nontrivial reorganization of code to implement so not there yet
    Pema Pera: yes, definitely I agree!
    Pema Pera: I much prefer having machines nag guardians than me nagging them :)
    Pema Pera: sorry, Susi, just trying to locate your snapshots . . . just a sec
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: ah, they are not under Textures, but under Photo Album, I see
    Susi Alcott: one is in Photo Album; two in Textures
    Pema Pera: Ah, I found one where you are sitting with someone in front of you
    Pema Pera: and is that Crusty sitting next to you?
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Pema Pera: and the other one is called: genesis, fael, corvi, susi, adelene, crusty, sky
    Susi Alcott: well; there was Cor, Adelen, Fael and Moon on my lap in top
    Pema Pera: wow, a whole pile up :)
    Pema Pera: when was that meeting?
    Fael Illyar: yesterday, I kind of agreed to post the log but forgot so I was going that now. Becka was nowhere to be seen.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Artemisia.
    Pema Pera: Hi there, Artemisia!
    Pema Pera: I look forward to reading the session log!
    Artemisia Svoboda: Hello everyone
    Susi Alcott: Hi Artemisia
    Artemisia joined us as well
    Artemisia Svoboda: sorry I am late!
    Pema Pera: so 2008/01/26 at 7 am ?
    Pema Pera: no problem Artemisia, people come and go
    Pema Pera: so there is no "late" :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: this is the first time I see the "new" pavilion
    Artemisia Svoboda: it is very nice
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Pema Pera: Wow, it has been a while since you were here then!
    Fael Illyar: the log is up now, although without comments.
    Pema Pera: Susi, did you mention that some part of the chat might be missing?
    Susi Alcott: not the official meeting time
    Susi Alcott: but some of what my pc saved after the meeting
    Fael Illyar: Yes, someone decided to stop the recording before everyone had left.
    Pema Pera: ah, sorry, Susi, perhaps I misunderstood
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pema Pera: do you know why?
    Susi Alcott: no
    Pema Pera: perhaps we should exclude the possibility to stop the recording
    Pema Pera: after all, we are still logging by hand
    Pema Pera: you can always leave something out later
    Pema Pera: but if you stop, you have lost stuff forever
    Pema Pera: if nobody keeps a private record
    Fael Illyar: I'd guess it was to make the rest of the meeting private.
    Susi Alcott: well; that all what's there missing (I 'deleted') was no conversation, but play texts
    Pema Pera: if we know we stopped the recording, we can ask him or her why that was done
    Susi Alcott: ah
    Susi Alcott: I thought it was because of the time
    Susi Alcott: as the hour had come full
    Fael Illyar: all I can say that when I saw the message from the recorder that it stopped, it just felt like it should be that way.
    Susi Alcott: but I do not know who stopped it
    Susi Alcott: as well as I did
    I began to figure out the recording system.
    Pema Pera: ah, okay, if it is done on purpose, then of course that is fine
    Pema Pera: if it was done by accident, that would be a pity
    Pema Pera: perhaps it would be a good idea to have the system register who stopped a session
    Pema Pera: so that we can later ask, in case of doubt.
    Pema Pera: Can a non-guardian also stop the recording, or only guardians?
    Susi Alcott: well Fael
    Fael Illyar: only guardians
    Susi Alcott: as I gave the part in which there is speech to Pema, would you think that it would be nice to have that part also published ?
    Susi Alcott: I'de like the idea for some reason
    Pema Pera: yes, that is the best choice, Fael, thanks!
    Susi Alcott: but you pls tell your opinion too
    Susi Alcott: Fael
    Pema Pera: ah, so that part, Susi, is after the part that Fael just put up now, but then with a gap, and then the part that you just sent me, Susi?
    Pema Pera: Sorry, Artemisia, we normally don't have such long conversations about previous conversations :-)
    Artemisia Svoboda: Sorry, I wasn't fast enough to read what you said...
    Artemisia Svoboda: I was trying out SL function I don't know yet
    Pema Pera: And Susi, sorry, I'm confused still; in the text that you sent me, I don't see my name listed -- you said you talked to me or about me?
    Pema Pera: ah, Artemisia, click on the "communicate" button, the blue one at the left bottom
    Artemisia Svoboda: ok, thanks!
    Pema Pera: then a window pops up with all the conversation of the whole session
    Pema Pera: under the tab "Local Chat"
    Artemisia Svoboda: Now I can see previous posts...
    Susi Alcott: oh no; I said that for some reason I wanted to give my saved chat after the meeting
    Pema Pera: ah, okay, thank you!
    Pema Pera: I'll read it later
    Susi Alcott: meaning that I thought that the official meeting was ended because the recording was stopped
    Susi Alcott: but I myself felt that the meeting did continue
    It had been a long time since I had seen Artemisia, and I was wondering whether she had been in SL lately.
    Pema Pera: Artemisia, how have you been? Did you get a chance to go to the Kira Cafe in the last couple of months?
    Pema Pera: Ah, I see, thank you, Susi!
    Artemisia Svoboda: Hi, yes I went to the meeting with Stim Morane last Thursday
    Susi Alcott: but I 'deleted' much of the part in which there is only such text cuz people where playing
    Artemisia Svoboda: and a few weeks back to Mitsu's talk
    Pema Pera: Ah, now I see, thanks Susi!
    Susi Alcott: so my first thought was just to let you to read
    Artemisia Svoboda: I hope for the next few weeks I have a little more time for SL meetings
    Susi Alcott: but sure I take that it can be published too
    Susi Alcott: as that was very special atmosphare here
    Pema Pera: yes, we have many events now, under the Kira umbrella, Art; four PaB sessions, and often two to five Kira events . . . .
    Pema Pera: so a lot of choice!
    Pema Pera: I wish I had been there, Susi, but I guess I'll get a sense from reading it, later
    Susi Alcott: beleive so too
    Pema Pera: Have you tried to play a bit more with the 9-sec explorations, Artemisia?
    Pema Pera: or other ways of looking at reality?
    Artemisia Svoboda: yes
    Artemisia Svoboda: My current practice includes trying to articulate
    Susi Alcott: Hi Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: hello
    Tarmel arrived, and Artemisia talked about her 9-sec explorations
    Artemisia Svoboda: the many resistances that come up when doing the 9-sec exercise
    Pema Pera: that's a great practice, Art!
    Pema Pera: Hi Tarmel!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Tarmel :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi all. hello twin :-)
    Artemisia Svoboda: Recently I tried to explain to friends who know nothing about this exercise or about SL
    Pema Pera: (Fael: when I leave before others leave, I will later get the link to the whole session, even though I was not there all the time, right?)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, as long as no one else claims the session
    Pema Pera: (very nice, thank you!)
    Pema Pera: (well designed!)
    Pema Pera: and how did they react, Artemisia?
    Artemisia Svoboda: Well, they were mainly good listeners which was beneficial for the practice of trying to articulate the resistances
    Fael Illyar: Yes, we tend to be able to articulate better when we're explaining to someone else :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: Hello
    Fael Illyar: (well, at least holds for me and several friends)
    Pema Pera: I think it holds for all of us, Fael :)
    Susi Alcott: he was a newbie; hardly been here before
    Pema Pera: Art, what were the main resistances that you discovered?
    Artemisia Svoboda: - numer one: the fear that interrupting whatever I am doing will make it hard to get back to it after the 9 secs
    Artemisia Svoboda: but it is just a fear
    Artemisia Svoboda: not grounded in any real experience of it happening
    Artemisia Svoboda: an number two: the elusiveness of the PaB sentence
    Fael Illyar: there is a PaB sentence?
    Artemisia Svoboda: Appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation of being
    Pema Pera: ("by Being", I would say, as the last two words :-)
    Pema Pera: (sorry to be nitpicking :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: the slipperiness of the concepts "presence", "appearance", "Being" makes me... impatient
    Pema Pera: yes, the idea is to let it grow on you
    Artemisia Svoboda: yes
    Pema Pera: to let Being present the sentence and its meaning
    Fael Illyar: most likely won't happen in a day. It might but very unlikely.
    Artemisia Svoboda: and probably also, along the way, look my impatience into the eye!
    Pema Pera: Ah, RL is calling, sorry, have to leave now -- I'd love to hear more about your explorations, Artemisia! I hope you'll continue the conversation, and I'll read it then when I get the automatic log!
    Artemisia Svoboda: ok, bye Pema!
    Tarmel Udimo: see you pema
    Pema Pera: see you all soon again
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: glad you came to see the new pavilion, Artemisia -- hope to see you soon again as well
    Pema Pera: bye everybody
    Susi Alcott: bye
    I took off, but thanks to the new autorecording system, I did indeed get a log, which I have posted here.  I won't comment from here on, since I was not there during the conversation.
    Tarmel Udimo: its a bit strange looking at myself art :-)
    Artemisia Svoboda: yes, indeed it is
    Tarmel Udimo: and odd that we have never seen each other at PaB before...
    Artemisia Svoboda: I have not been in here in several months
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh perhaps that why
    Fael Illyar: It's quite liberating to see the impatience, fear, hope and other things but not be bothered by it
    Artemisia Svoboda: But I guess having a twin is just a reminder of the differences between RL and SL
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: It's actually pretty rare to meet a twin in SL :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: really?
    Tarmel Udimo: we'll have to exchange notes...
    Fael Illyar: there's enough variation available that ...
    Fael Illyar: well, customizing the way you look is just moving a few sliders around.
    Fael Illyar: if you've ever played sims, you'll understand how.
    Artemisia Svoboda: ... and I have just been too lazy to do it...
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Tarmel Udimo: and I not interested... :-)
    Artemisia Svoboda: ...I have been so much more interested in the conversations than in the visual presentation...
    Fael Illyar: It's mainly, do you want to use your appearance to communicate or not. :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: ... exactly
    Tarmel Udimo: there you go... now we're different - thanks to susi ;-)
    Susi Alcott: :)))
    Artemisia Svoboda: :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: Fael, I haven't responded to your contribution a few minutes ago
    Tarmel Udimo: white
    Artemisia Svoboda: about the liberating aspect of seeing your own impatience etc
    Susi Alcott: well; usually twins are kind of opposite; what's to be seen on the other, is as hidden in the other :)*
    Artemisia Svoboda: without getting worked up about it
    Susi Alcott: how is that within you two ?
    Artemisia Svoboda: oh, now I am caught up in two different strands of the conversation
    Susi Alcott: meaning that for example the other is taken and takes him/herself as an artist, and the other one as the mathemtical
    Susi Alcott: ah
    Susi Alcott: you can forget my question
    Fael Illyar: I usually just pick one and return to the other later if I still remember it :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: Fael, I was going to ask you about your own experiences
    Fael Illyar: Ask away :)
    Susi Alcott: lol
    Artemisia Svoboda: Just wondering if your statement came out of something you experienced in the context of the 9-sec exercise
    Fael Illyar: well, there too but it's starting to be part of everything I do.
    Artemisia Svoboda: can you say more?
    Fael Illyar: It's hard to describe as anything but being peaceful or calm.
    Fael Illyar: even with fears, impatience and other things floating about in my mind.
    Artemisia Svoboda: which is already a great description
    Artemisia Svoboda: is there some type of conversion with yourself involved
    Artemisia Svoboda: to let this happen?
    Artemisia Svoboda: I mean
    Susi Alcott: to have peace inside no matter anything goes around it
    Susi Alcott: sry that I must log out again
    Fael Illyar: no, conversation would be something floating about. It has nothing to do with the peace.
    Susi Alcott: wishing good time to all
    Fael Illyar: See you later Susi :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: bye, susi
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Tarmel Udimo: bye susi
    Fael Illyar: you could also call it awareness.
    Artemisia Svoboda: I know, this is not the type of thing we can "make happen"
    Fael Illyar: yes, we an only step out of the way and let it hapen :)
    Fael Illyar: trying to make it happen is standing in the way :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: exactly, and what I am looking for are more precise words for this "stepping out of the way"
    Fael Illyar: If I had any, I'd use them :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: but I don't know if even looking for more precise words is already too much doing
    Artemisia Svoboda: or if, on the contrary, it can be helpful
    Artemisia Svoboda: if seen as a process
    Fael Illyar: anything can be helpful
    Fael Illyar: the question is just how much.
    Tarmel Udimo: its been nice meeting you art, now I too must go... see you again fael
    Artemisia Svoboda: and perhaps, in the same way, anything can become a further obstacle
    Fael Illyar: See you later Tarmel :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: see you!
    Fael Illyar: yes, if you focus on any single thing, it tends to become an obstacle, sooner or later
    Artemisia Svoboda: and if you are totally unfocused it doesn't help either
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I'd say the key is fluid focus
    Artemisia Svoboda: oh, I like that expression
    Fael Illyar: not stuck anywhere but fluid
    Fael Illyar: that's what makes things become obstacles, when your focus gets suck in them
    Fael Illyar: uh, stuck
    Artemisia Svoboda: Pema would perhaps say, "Wear your attitude of being focused lightly"
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that'd be Pema's expression
    Fael Illyar: I try to fit what I'm trying to say to the language of the one I'm talking to.
    Artemisia Svoboda: which would perhaps mean we can still concentrate "hard" on something but without being "stuck" in that conentration
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's the key, not being stuck.
    Fael Illyar: it can take a while to learn how to not be stuck but it's well worth it
    Artemisia Svoboda: Oh, I know...
    Fael Illyar: Yes?
    Artemisia Svoboda: It sometimes feels like my entire life is a series of experiences of being stuck
    Artemisia Svoboda: and life-long discovery of how to get more and more unstuck
    Artemisia Svoboda: but often falling back and forgetting
    Artemisia Svoboda: that the "stuckness" is not my inevitable fate
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it's quite easy to forget.
    Artemisia Svoboda: and thanks for reminding me today!
    Fael Illyar: There's always the option of unstucking yourself, whatever you have going on.
    Fael Illyar: and it doesn't actually even have to change what you do.
    Artemisia Svoboda: Right, and it is funny, no matter how deeply I alreay believe that, somehow <
    Artemisia Svoboda: and perhaps this loops back to the beginning of our conersation
    Fael Illyar: When someone else says it, you give it more thought than usual.
    Artemisia Svoboda: since I know of this power of the words of somebody else
    Artemisia Svoboda: I keep wondering to what extent it is possible to say such things to ourselves
    Artemisia Svoboda: and what this type of self-conversation means to the practice
    Fael Illyar: There are useful things to be gained with self-conversation too sometimes.
    Fael Illyar: but it isn't really the way that the unstucking happens ... it might help bring it about though.
    Fael Illyar: but is not a part of it that needs to be there.
    Artemisia Svoboda: yes, I see it that way too.
    Artemisia Svoboda: Oh, I need to go back to RL
    Artemisia Svoboda: Thanks for a great conversation
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see perhaps later :)
    Fael Illyar: You too :)
    Artemisia Svoboda: for sure:)
    Artemisia Svoboda: Bye
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