2009.02.05 13:00 - More than one Deep Mystery

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    The guardian for this session was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

    It was a nice peaceful time at the pavilion. I had begun to think it would be a rare session of meditation for me, but after a quarter of an hour a mystery guest turned up, whom I shall imaginatively refer to hereinafter as "Mystery Guest", along with some regulars. We started with a basic information dispensation situation... ;)

    Storm Nordwind: Hello Mystery
    Mystery Guest: hello, will be here a meeting soon?
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Fefonz
    Storm Nordwind: Yes. Right now. Please join us if you wish?
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Storm:)
    Mystery Guest: sure, thank you
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Mystery
    Mystery Guest: hi :)
    Storm Nordwind: Have you been to these meetings before?
    Mystery Guest: no
    Storm Nordwind: Oh OK
    Mystery Guest: will you tell me shortly what to do
    Mystery Guest: please?
    Storm Nordwind: Sure! :)
    Storm Nordwind: First of all I should tell you this...
    Storm Nordwind: these meetings are being recorded...
    Storm Nordwind: so please let me know whether or not you mind your name being mentioned and your words published.
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Pila!
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: greetings folks
    Mystery Guest: do not know what for is the record and what will be the conversation about, so can't say right now
    Mystery Guest: :)
    Mystery Guest: hi
    Storm Nordwind: Please let me know before you leave, and if you'd rather not i will edit you out! :)
    Mystery Guest: I will, thank you
    Mystery Guest: curious now
    Storm Nordwind: We talk about Play as Being here
    Storm Nordwind: Do you know anything about that experiment/initiative?
    Mystery Guest: no
    Mystery Guest: do I need to read first?
    Storm Nordwind: Ah OK. Let me give you a short notecard
    Mystery Guest: thx
    Mystery Guest accepted your inventory offer.
    Mystery Guest: let me read
    Storm Nordwind: Sure
    Mystery Guest: done
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Mystery Guest: not much inthere
    Storm Nordwind: OK. The website has some useful guides too
    Storm Nordwind: Let me give you a couple of links
    Mystery Guest: ok
    Storm Nordwind: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell
    Storm Nordwind: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Hints
    Storm Nordwind: Basically we gather here to talk about our insights and experiences with this practice.
    Mystery Guest: thank you
    Storm Nordwind: So feel free to listen, join in, ask questions...
    Storm Nordwind: whatever you like!
    Mystery Guest: may I just listen or I can participate already?
    Storm Nordwind: Whatever you like!
    Mystery Guest: nods :)
    Storm Nordwind: Great!

    Pila decided to have fun by asking a seemingly over-serious question ...

    Pila Mulligan: first you have to pass the quiz (joking) ... Q # 1 what is real?
    Storm Nordwind: Pila - that is mean!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mystery Guest: it was not
    Storm Nordwind: hehe!
    Mystery Guest: I like humour
    Storm Nordwind: And playful :)
    Fefonz Quan: or what do you mean :)
    Pila Mulligan: thank you Mystery
    Mystery Guest: and I like the question
    Mystery Guest: :))
    Storm Nordwind: Great!
    Mystery Guest: may I answer?
    Pila Mulligan: Fefonz is being difficult
    Storm Nordwind: Please do

    ... but our guest rose to the challenge

    Mystery Guest: each has different picture of the reality
    Mystery Guest: so, there is no such thing as one reality
    Fefonz Quan: at lest plating difficult. i'm quite easy though
    Pila Mulligan: yes :)
    Mystery Guest: or reality at all
    Mystery Guest: we make it in our minds
    Pila Mulligan: interesting Mystery, so we each have our own?
    Mystery Guest: yes
    Mystery Guest: I belive so
    Mystery Guest: mine and yours are not same
    Storm Nordwind plays devil's advocate... "How can you be so sure?" ;)
    Pila Mulligan: I agree that our perceptions are unique and infidiuval
    Fefonz Quan: but we do agree on some things, srrisingly
    Mystery Guest: cause we process it in different minds
    Mystery Guest: sure we agree
    Pila Mulligan: but water is wet, to be simplistic
    Fefonz Quan: so can it be independent?
    Mystery Guest: otherwise we should live in chaos
    Mystery Guest: but what I see right here is not what you see
    Fefonz Quan: so what is common, and what is not? is there a difference between the two?
    Mystery Guest: some basic things are common
    Fefonz Quan: i totally agree with you on that
    Pila Mulligan: light, mountains, oceans, all the biggies
    Storm Nordwind: We are probably right not to assume that what you see is not what I see, but how do you really know?
    Mystery Guest: I can assume through my previous experience
    Fefonz Quan: (i agreed that we don't see the same, not that basics are common)
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Solo
    Mystery Guest: depends on what are basics
    Pila Mulligan: hi Solo
    Solobill Laville: Hi, folks! :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Solo, good to see you :)
    Mystery Guest: we agree about the time, space we are now
    Mystery Guest: ...
    Mystery Guest: we sould say the same about that if we are asked
    Pila Mulligan: so shared experience is a common thing
    Mystery Guest: and learnt
    Mystery Guest: at schools
    Fefonz Quan shuts the mouth of the physicist inside him concerning time
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Pila Mulligan: 1+1=10
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, if you have only two fingers
    Mystery Guest: I know what you think
    Mystery Guest: no such thing as time?
    Mystery Guest: agree
    Fefonz Quan: well, i don't, not as a direct experience
    Fefonz Quan: can you describe that concept to me?
    Mystery Guest: about?
    Fefonz Quan: no such thin g as time
    Mystery Guest: that is hard
    Mystery Guest: Einstein would do it better
    Fefonz Quan: i know, other wise i could answer myself :)
    Mystery Guest: bu
    Mystery Guest: but
    Mystery Guest: if you can travel through universe
    Mystery Guest: million light years from here in a sec
    Fefonz Quan: but in my day to day experience there is time, at lest in the sense that nothing is frozen
    Mystery Guest: time will be deleted
    Storm Nordwind remembers a quote from a much loved book: "How can I tell that the past isn’t a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"
    Fefonz Quan: in fact it will be slowed, which is quite different
    Mystery Guest: it is relative
    Fefonz Quan: very intriguing Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Douglas Adams

    It was the man who ruled the Universe talking in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

    Pila Mulligan: sounds like we are saying, in part, reality is relative
    Mystery Guest: yes, i am saying that in my poor English
    Fefonz Quan: but relative dosn't mean non-existence
    Storm Nordwind: Your English is very good Mystery
    Mystery Guest: you are kind
    Mystery Guest: what is existence?
    Pila Mulligan: a personal state of reality?
    Mystery Guest: yes
    Fefonz Quan: i just followed your notion of "no such thing as time" Mystery
    Fefonz Quan: (while making tons of typoes)
    Mystery Guest: but you do not think so?
    Solobill Laville: Solipsism?
    Pila Mulligan: now there's a term that needs elaboration, Solo
    Solobill Laville: "All that I know exists only in my mind", or thereabouts

    Solo hits it. I would have said that solipsism is the theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified and is therefore the only reality. Or I might have said (if we equate mind to self) that my mind is the only thing that I know exists.

    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Fefonz Quan: even in solipsism, there is change, from "moment" to "moment"
    Solobill Laville: Trouble with solipsism is, we can experience more...
    Mystery Guest: I would say it in this way--the picture I see exists only in my mind
    Pila Mulligan: so the universe expands :)
    Fefonz Quan: so change without time is hard for me to comprehend
    Fefonz Quan: (and i tried)
    Storm Nordwind: This is interesting. How would that fit into any realisations from the Play as Being exercises called "You Seeing Being Seeing" or "Enlightened Seeing Being Seeing"?
    Fefonz Quan: even if it is only in my mind - there is change gong on
    Fefonz Quan: well storm, i try to talk from basics here, before jumping into more elaborate definitions
    Fefonz Quan: (also in order to make the conversation non-cryptic)
    Pila Mulligan: to me, the essential elements of time are sequence and duration ... aspects that also relate to change
    Pila Mulligan: yet being and seeing may define what we are discussing :)
    Solobill Laville: Exactly, Storm...any actual experience of "Being" cancels that viewpoint (Solipsism)
    Fefonz Quan: how is it Solo?
    Storm Nordwind: Yes - I agree Solo. Experience transcends theory it seems
    Solobill Laville: The difference between intellectual knowledge, and experiential knowledge
    Solobill Laville: maybe that encompasses it a bit
    Fefonz Quan: i didn't have any experience that i can define as prohibits solipsism, but i would love to hear of yours
    Pila Mulligan: I need to excuse myself form this interesting discussion, unfortunately -- nice to meet you Mystery, nice to see you Storm, Fefonz and Solo -- aloha for now
    Mystery Guest: bye
    Storm Nordwind: Aloha Pila
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Pila
    Fefonz Quan: (not that i think solipsism is a constructive model)
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Pila

    Our mystery guest also got up to go and I asked about revealing their identity.

    Mystery Guest: sorry, its late for me and need to go
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Mystery :)
    Storm Nordwind: Can I publish Mystery?
    Fefonz Quan: good to have you here Mystery, Bye.
    Mystery Guest: :)
    Mystery Guest: not this time, let it be introduction
    Storm Nordwind: I will ***** you out then
    Mystery Guest: okay, thx
    Mystery Guest: wish you peace and light :)
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Looking forward to seeing you again
    Mystery Guest: bye

    And so our mystery guest left us, and we discussed how to deal with that situation in the chatlog. As it turns out, I've chosen to deal with in a different way than we discussed, but that's editorial privilege!

    Solobill Laville: Looks likes Solo killed another perfectly good conversation...
    Fefonz Quan: well, this will kill most of the records till now :)
    Solobill Laville: ;)
    Storm Nordwind: Rubbish!
    Solobill Laville: hehe, how so Fefonz?
    Storm Nordwind: I will simply do a global replace with asterisks
    Solobill Laville: ah...got it
    Fefonz Quan: because we cant record the conversation with them
    Fefonz Quan: which i thought was to the point
    Storm Nordwind: No. But it can be an anonymous visitor with the name starred out
    Solobill Laville: RIght
    Fefonz Quan: is it?
    Solobill Laville: still have the comments...
    Storm Nordwind: Sure. It's a common technique. And a great conversation
    Fefonz Quan: the privacy police will argue that, but enough for us :)
    Storm Nordwind: No one can be identified so it's OK
    Solobill Laville: Well, between an av and ** there are a couple levels of privacy there ;)
    Storm Nordwind: I could have made it all up
    Storm Nordwind: perhaps I am doing!
    Solobill Laville: And he did, I'll swear it right now
    Storm Nordwind: nene!
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Storm Nordwind: hehe!
    Fefonz Quan have some friends that deal with security of information that will calculate the hardness of finding one word in order to break a whole code
    Solobill Laville: Anyway, Fefonz, I am not dodging your question, too much ;)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Storm Nordwind: Which one was that?
    Fefonz Quan: ?
    Solobill Laville: Dunno, so many...need to read back ;)
    Storm Nordwind reaches for a Bakewell Tart
    Storm Nordwind spills crumbs on the cushion

    We changed tack. I'd raised something earlier, something of supreme personal importance, that Fefonz wanted me to describe more fully.

    Fefonz Quan: if we can go back to our technical language before, Storm, could you elaborate about that:
    Solobill Laville: Ah - a solipsism cruncher!
    Solobill Laville: yes, please go ahead Storm
    Fefonz Quan: [13:29] Storm Nordwind: This is interesting. How would that fit into any realisations from the Play as Being exercises called "You Seeing Being Seeing" or "Enlightened Seeing Being Seeing"?
    Storm Nordwind: Have you looked at the YSBS or ESBS exercises yet Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: no, where are they described?
    Storm Nordwind: They are in the chatlogs somewhere. Let me see.
    Fefonz Quan didn't know Pab has a list of exercises
    Storm Nordwind: July last year
    Fefonz Quan: pre-history for me :)
    Storm Nordwind: July for YSBS
    Storm Nordwind: Early August I think for ESBS
    Storm Nordwind: May I humbly suggest that you do?
    Storm Nordwind: I think you may have a treat in store!
    Fefonz Quan: can you say some words about it?
    Fefonz Quan: (and i will, but after the session, and after i finish at last my scribe mission :0
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Storm Nordwind: OK!
    Storm Nordwind: Well Pema first suggested it here:
    Storm Nordwind: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...d_Being_Seeing
    Storm Nordwind: He described an exercise where first you see as yourself, being conscious of a "cone of visual awareness"
    Fefonz Quan: ok
    Storm Nordwind: And then he suggested changing to something quite different and ... er ... comparing and contrasting! ;)
    Storm Nordwind teases
    Storm Nordwind: You do that for 9 seconds or however long you like he says
    Storm Nordwind: Then you stop doing that and you spend some time on a different kind of experiment, also 9 seconds if you like

    I quoted directly from the old transcript...

    Pema Pera: in those second 9 seconds you let Being SEE everything
    Pema Pera: all
    Pema Pera: not visually in the sense of eyes
    Pema Pera: a different kind of seeing
    Pema Pera: inside and outside you
    Pema Pera: not located
    Pema Pera: nor spreading outward or moving inward
    Pema Pera: all inclusive
    Pema Pera: whatever that may mean -- don't try to form an image of it -- just do it

    Solo helpfully chimed in.

    Solobill Laville: This expands the pre-set, or hardwired, boundaries of what we generally identify as "me"
    Fefonz Quan: ok, a little like the Pheno exercise
    Storm Nordwind: Pema develops it on from there. And I tried it and recorded my experiences at length in my blog
    Fefonz Quan: that link i would really like to have if yoou may, Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Fefonz... the similarity of experience is only that it is an experiment on your own perception. The similarity ends there!
    Fefonz Quan: i don't argue that a bit Storm

    I found my blog notes.

    Storm Nordwind: The YSBS experience is potentially very profound
    Storm Nordwind: If you want to look at my blog, please go here. The first day is not successful
    Storm Nordwind: http://stormerne.blogspot.com/2008/0...-as-being.html
    Storm Nordwind: But if you go to newer and newer posts you'll find I have some modest success.
    Storm Nordwind: And further still into August you'll find my ESBS notes

    And whereas the YSBS experience was indeed profound and an essential one to have and to be able to draw upon, for me it was the subsequent exercise, ESBS, was the clincher and set the YSBS experience in practical context.

    Solo's next question seems innocuous enough, but was in fact (or at least my opinion!) unanswerable.

    Solobill Laville: Where is your mind during the exercise, Storm?
    Storm Nordwind: Well Solo, there is no answer to that question
    Storm Nordwind: During the exercise, your question is meaningless

    Hmm... that sounded a bit abrupt!

    Solobill Laville: Let me clarify it a bit
    Solobill Laville: Do you center your mind in your belly, for example?
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Sam :)
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Sam!
    Storm Nordwind: Prior to the exercise? Hmmm I would have to try and see, but not deliberately so
    Fefonz Quan: that link got into my favorites in no time :)
    Fefonz Quan: i will be glad to go over your notes there storm.

    Meanwhile Sam drifted in and out.

    Storm Nordwind: Hello Samuel
    Samuel Okelly: hello every1 :)
    Storm Nordwind: You join us at the end because we'll very likely go to the Kira Cafe in a few minutes!
    Samuel Okelly: ahhh i see :)
    Samuel Okelly: just thought id stop by and say hi" :)
    Samuel Okelly: tc every1 :)
    Storm Nordwind: You're always welcome to do so Sam :)

    Solo persisted. And I could only respond in what seemed to be rather grand terms.

    Solobill Laville: Do you conceptualize your mind, as that which frames the perspective?
    Solobill Laville: e.g. as in, Seeing "from" somewhere...
    Storm Nordwind: No Solo
    Storm Nordwind: You ARE everything there is to see. You are distant worlds being created and destroyed. You see and you are simultaneously
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds amazing Storm, although i believe we should try it for ourselves...
    Storm Nordwind: That is the only way Fefonz


    Fefonz returned to time

    Fefonz Quan: i should be honest here and reveal that the reason i asked that question over and over is that the concept of no time
    Fefonz Quan: is one of my major topic in contemplation nowadays
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Fefonz Quan: infact, maybe you know that i sit in Pema's offices in teh IAS
    Storm Nordwind: Yes
    Fefonz Quan: and that is tha main topic we defined for contemplation and examination
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Solobill Laville: Contemplating time is a koan
    Fefonz Quan: for me it is somehow more difficult than no-self
    Storm Nordwind: The experience I speak of removes all separation, of any kind. Although this is instantly obvious with space, perhaps you will notice it happening with time.
    Solobill Laville: Do you need to solve it? :)
    Fefonz Quan: no need, Solo)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: solve, dissolve, whatever comes first
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, still there is change there, isn't it?

    We touched on a deep paradox.

    Solobill Laville: What I am trying to get at is what is left, in the state of removal of separation, Storm
    Solobill Laville: I am working (intellectually) on the difference between "no-ego" and "no-self"
    Storm Nordwind: To be able to say "It is that" you become separate. That is why the question is meaningless when there is no separation!
    Fefonz Quan: the question of change is meaningless?
    Storm Nordwind: No, the question of "what is left" is meaningless

    But we'd run out of time.

    Storm Nordwind: Let us go to the Cafe for the workshop
    Solobill Laville: wonders...I think I know your meaning, though
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Solobill Laville: I must bow out of the workshop, friends :)
    Storm Nordwind: Oh OK
    Fefonz Quan: yes, hope to continue that some"time"
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: Bye for now!
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Solo
    Storm Nordwind: Coming?
    Fefonz Quan: yep :)

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