2009.02.05 13:00 - More than one Deep Mystery

The guardian for this session was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

It was a nice peaceful time at the pavilion. I had begun to think it would be a rare session of meditation for me, but after a quarter of an hour a mystery guest turned up, whom I shall imaginatively refer to hereinafter as "Mystery Guest", along with some regulars. We started with a basic information dispensation situation... ;)

Storm Nordwind: Hello Mystery
Mystery Guest: hello, will be here a meeting soon?
Storm Nordwind: Hello Fefonz
Storm Nordwind: Yes. Right now. Please join us if you wish?
Fefonz Quan: Hey Storm:)
Mystery Guest: sure, thank you
Fefonz Quan: Hi Mystery
Mystery Guest: hi :)
Storm Nordwind: Have you been to these meetings before?
Mystery Guest: no
Storm Nordwind: Oh OK
Mystery Guest: will you tell me shortly what to do
Mystery Guest: please?
Storm Nordwind: Sure! :)
Storm Nordwind: First of all I should tell you this...
Storm Nordwind: these meetings are being recorded...
Storm Nordwind: so please let me know whether or not you mind your name being mentioned and your words published.
Fefonz Quan: Hey Pila!
Storm Nordwind: Hello Pila!
Pila Mulligan: greetings folks
Mystery Guest: do not know what for is the record and what will be the conversation about, so can't say right now
Mystery Guest: :)
Mystery Guest: hi
Storm Nordwind: Please let me know before you leave, and if you'd rather not i will edit you out! :)
Mystery Guest: I will, thank you
Mystery Guest: curious now
Storm Nordwind: We talk about Play as Being here
Storm Nordwind: Do you know anything about that experiment/initiative?
Mystery Guest: no
Mystery Guest: do I need to read first?
Storm Nordwind: Ah OK. Let me give you a short notecard
Mystery Guest: thx
Mystery Guest accepted your inventory offer.
Mystery Guest: let me read
Storm Nordwind: Sure
Mystery Guest: done
Pila Mulligan: :0
Mystery Guest: not much inthere
Storm Nordwind: OK. The website has some useful guides too
Storm Nordwind: Let me give you a couple of links
Mystery Guest: ok
Storm Nordwind: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell
Storm Nordwind: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Hints
Storm Nordwind: Basically we gather here to talk about our insights and experiences with this practice.
Mystery Guest: thank you
Storm Nordwind: So feel free to listen, join in, ask questions...
Storm Nordwind: whatever you like!
Mystery Guest: may I just listen or I can participate already?
Storm Nordwind: Whatever you like!
Mystery Guest: nods :)
Storm Nordwind: Great!

Pila decided to have fun by asking a seemingly over-serious question ...

Pila Mulligan: first you have to pass the quiz (joking) ... Q # 1 what is real?
Storm Nordwind: Pila - that is mean!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mystery Guest: it was not
Storm Nordwind: hehe!
Mystery Guest: I like humour
Storm Nordwind: And playful :)
Fefonz Quan: or what do you mean :)
Pila Mulligan: thank you Mystery
Mystery Guest: and I like the question
Mystery Guest: :))
Storm Nordwind: Great!
Mystery Guest: may I answer?
Pila Mulligan: Fefonz is being difficult
Storm Nordwind: Please do

... but our guest rose to the challenge

Mystery Guest: each has different picture of the reality
Mystery Guest: so, there is no such thing as one reality
Fefonz Quan: at lest plating difficult. i'm quite easy though
Pila Mulligan: yes :)
Mystery Guest: or reality at all
Mystery Guest: we make it in our minds
Pila Mulligan: interesting Mystery, so we each have our own?
Mystery Guest: yes
Mystery Guest: I belive so
Mystery Guest: mine and yours are not same
Storm Nordwind plays devil's advocate... "How can you be so sure?" ;)
Pila Mulligan: I agree that our perceptions are unique and infidiuval
Fefonz Quan: but we do agree on some things, srrisingly
Mystery Guest: cause we process it in different minds
Mystery Guest: sure we agree
Pila Mulligan: but water is wet, to be simplistic
Fefonz Quan: so can it be independent?
Mystery Guest: otherwise we should live in chaos
Mystery Guest: but what I see right here is not what you see
Fefonz Quan: so what is common, and what is not? is there a difference between the two?
Mystery Guest: some basic things are common
Fefonz Quan: i totally agree with you on that
Pila Mulligan: light, mountains, oceans, all the biggies
Storm Nordwind: We are probably right not to assume that what you see is not what I see, but how do you really know?
Mystery Guest: I can assume through my previous experience
Fefonz Quan: (i agreed that we don't see the same, not that basics are common)
Storm Nordwind: Hello Solo
Mystery Guest: depends on what are basics
Pila Mulligan: hi Solo
Solobill Laville: Hi, folks! :)
Fefonz Quan: Hi Solo, good to see you :)
Mystery Guest: we agree about the time, space we are now
Mystery Guest: ...
Mystery Guest: we sould say the same about that if we are asked
Pila Mulligan: so shared experience is a common thing
Mystery Guest: and learnt
Mystery Guest: at schools
Fefonz Quan shuts the mouth of the physicist inside him concerning time
Storm Nordwind smiles
Pila Mulligan: 1+1=10
Storm Nordwind: Yes, if you have only two fingers
Mystery Guest: I know what you think
Mystery Guest: no such thing as time?
Mystery Guest: agree
Fefonz Quan: well, i don't, not as a direct experience
Fefonz Quan: can you describe that concept to me?
Mystery Guest: about?
Fefonz Quan: no such thin g as time
Mystery Guest: that is hard
Mystery Guest: Einstein would do it better
Fefonz Quan: i know, other wise i could answer myself :)
Mystery Guest: bu
Mystery Guest: but
Mystery Guest: if you can travel through universe
Mystery Guest: million light years from here in a sec
Fefonz Quan: but in my day to day experience there is time, at lest in the sense that nothing is frozen
Mystery Guest: time will be deleted
Storm Nordwind remembers a quote from a much loved book: "How can I tell that the past isn’t a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"
Fefonz Quan: in fact it will be slowed, which is quite different
Mystery Guest: it is relative
Fefonz Quan: very intriguing Storm
Storm Nordwind: Douglas Adams

It was the man who ruled the Universe talking in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Pila Mulligan: sounds like we are saying, in part, reality is relative
Mystery Guest: yes, i am saying that in my poor English
Fefonz Quan: but relative dosn't mean non-existence
Storm Nordwind: Your English is very good Mystery
Mystery Guest: you are kind
Mystery Guest: what is existence?
Pila Mulligan: a personal state of reality?
Mystery Guest: yes
Fefonz Quan: i just followed your notion of "no such thing as time" Mystery
Fefonz Quan: (while making tons of typoes)
Mystery Guest: but you do not think so?
Solobill Laville: Solipsism?
Pila Mulligan: now there's a term that needs elaboration, Solo
Solobill Laville: "All that I know exists only in my mind", or thereabouts

Solo hits it. I would have said that solipsism is the theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified and is therefore the only reality. Or I might have said (if we equate mind to self) that my mind is the only thing that I know exists.

Pila Mulligan: thanks
Fefonz Quan: even in solipsism, there is change, from "moment" to "moment"
Solobill Laville: Trouble with solipsism is, we can experience more...
Mystery Guest: I would say it in this way--the picture I see exists only in my mind
Pila Mulligan: so the universe expands :)
Fefonz Quan: so change without time is hard for me to comprehend
Fefonz Quan: (and i tried)
Storm Nordwind: This is interesting. How would that fit into any realisations from the Play as Being exercises called "You Seeing Being Seeing" or "Enlightened Seeing Being Seeing"?
Fefonz Quan: even if it is only in my mind - there is change gong on
Fefonz Quan: well storm, i try to talk from basics here, before jumping into more elaborate definitions
Fefonz Quan: (also in order to make the conversation non-cryptic)
Pila Mulligan: to me, the essential elements of time are sequence and duration ... aspects that also relate to change
Pila Mulligan: yet being and seeing may define what we are discussing :)
Solobill Laville: Exactly, Storm...any actual experience of "Being" cancels that viewpoint (Solipsism)
Fefonz Quan: how is it Solo?
Storm Nordwind: Yes - I agree Solo. Experience transcends theory it seems
Solobill Laville: The difference between intellectual knowledge, and experiential knowledge
Solobill Laville: maybe that encompasses it a bit
Fefonz Quan: i didn't have any experience that i can define as prohibits solipsism, but i would love to hear of yours
Pila Mulligan: I need to excuse myself form this interesting discussion, unfortunately -- nice to meet you Mystery, nice to see you Storm, Fefonz and Solo -- aloha for now
Mystery Guest: bye
Storm Nordwind: Aloha Pila
Fefonz Quan: Bye Pila
Fefonz Quan: (not that i think solipsism is a constructive model)
Solobill Laville: Bye, Pila

Our mystery guest also got up to go and I asked about revealing their identity.

Mystery Guest: sorry, its late for me and need to go
Solobill Laville: Bye, Mystery :)
Storm Nordwind: Can I publish Mystery?
Fefonz Quan: good to have you here Mystery, Bye.
Mystery Guest: :)
Mystery Guest: not this time, let it be introduction
Storm Nordwind: I will ***** you out then
Mystery Guest: okay, thx
Mystery Guest: wish you peace and light :)
Solobill Laville: :)
Storm Nordwind: Looking forward to seeing you again
Mystery Guest: bye

And so our mystery guest left us, and we discussed how to deal with that situation in the chatlog. As it turns out, I've chosen to deal with in a different way than we discussed, but that's editorial privilege!

Solobill Laville: Looks likes Solo killed another perfectly good conversation...
Fefonz Quan: well, this will kill most of the records till now :)
Solobill Laville: ;)
Storm Nordwind: Rubbish!
Solobill Laville: hehe, how so Fefonz?
Storm Nordwind: I will simply do a global replace with asterisks
Solobill Laville: ah...got it
Fefonz Quan: because we cant record the conversation with them
Fefonz Quan: which i thought was to the point
Storm Nordwind: No. But it can be an anonymous visitor with the name starred out
Solobill Laville: RIght
Fefonz Quan: is it?
Solobill Laville: still have the comments...
Storm Nordwind: Sure. It's a common technique. And a great conversation
Fefonz Quan: the privacy police will argue that, but enough for us :)
Storm Nordwind: No one can be identified so it's OK
Solobill Laville: Well, between an av and ** there are a couple levels of privacy there ;)
Storm Nordwind: I could have made it all up
Storm Nordwind: perhaps I am doing!
Solobill Laville: And he did, I'll swear it right now
Storm Nordwind: nene!
Solobill Laville: hehe
Storm Nordwind: hehe!
Fefonz Quan have some friends that deal with security of information that will calculate the hardness of finding one word in order to break a whole code
Solobill Laville: Anyway, Fefonz, I am not dodging your question, too much ;)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Storm Nordwind: Which one was that?
Fefonz Quan: ?
Solobill Laville: Dunno, so many...need to read back ;)
Storm Nordwind reaches for a Bakewell Tart
Storm Nordwind spills crumbs on the cushion

We changed tack. I'd raised something earlier, something of supreme personal importance, that Fefonz wanted me to describe more fully.

Fefonz Quan: if we can go back to our technical language before, Storm, could you elaborate about that:
Solobill Laville: Ah - a solipsism cruncher!
Solobill Laville: yes, please go ahead Storm
Fefonz Quan: [13:29] Storm Nordwind: This is interesting. How would that fit into any realisations from the Play as Being exercises called "You Seeing Being Seeing" or "Enlightened Seeing Being Seeing"?
Storm Nordwind: Have you looked at the YSBS or ESBS exercises yet Fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: no, where are they described?
Storm Nordwind: They are in the chatlogs somewhere. Let me see.
Fefonz Quan didn't know Pab has a list of exercises
Storm Nordwind: July last year
Fefonz Quan: pre-history for me :)
Storm Nordwind: July for YSBS
Storm Nordwind: Early August I think for ESBS
Storm Nordwind: May I humbly suggest that you do?
Storm Nordwind: I think you may have a treat in store!
Fefonz Quan: can you say some words about it?
Fefonz Quan: (and i will, but after the session, and after i finish at last my scribe mission :0
Fefonz Quan: :)
Storm Nordwind: OK!
Storm Nordwind: Well Pema first suggested it here:
Storm Nordwind: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...d_Being_Seeing
Storm Nordwind: He described an exercise where first you see as yourself, being conscious of a "cone of visual awareness"
Fefonz Quan: ok
Storm Nordwind: And then he suggested changing to something quite different and ... er ... comparing and contrasting! ;)
Storm Nordwind teases
Storm Nordwind: You do that for 9 seconds or however long you like he says
Storm Nordwind: Then you stop doing that and you spend some time on a different kind of experiment, also 9 seconds if you like

I quoted directly from the old transcript...

Pema Pera: in those second 9 seconds you let Being SEE everything
Pema Pera: all
Pema Pera: not visually in the sense of eyes
Pema Pera: a different kind of seeing
Pema Pera: inside and outside you
Pema Pera: not located
Pema Pera: nor spreading outward or moving inward
Pema Pera: all inclusive
Pema Pera: whatever that may mean -- don't try to form an image of it -- just do it

Solo helpfully chimed in.

Solobill Laville: This expands the pre-set, or hardwired, boundaries of what we generally identify as "me"
Fefonz Quan: ok, a little like the Pheno exercise
Storm Nordwind: Pema develops it on from there. And I tried it and recorded my experiences at length in my blog
Fefonz Quan: that link i would really like to have if yoou may, Storm
Storm Nordwind: Fefonz... the similarity of experience is only that it is an experiment on your own perception. The similarity ends there!
Fefonz Quan: i don't argue that a bit Storm

I found my blog notes.

Storm Nordwind: The YSBS experience is potentially very profound
Storm Nordwind: If you want to look at my blog, please go here. The first day is not successful
Storm Nordwind: http://stormerne.blogspot.com/2008/0...-as-being.html
Storm Nordwind: But if you go to newer and newer posts you'll find I have some modest success.
Storm Nordwind: And further still into August you'll find my ESBS notes

And whereas the YSBS experience was indeed profound and an essential one to have and to be able to draw upon, for me it was the subsequent exercise, ESBS, was the clincher and set the YSBS experience in practical context.

Solo's next question seems innocuous enough, but was in fact (or at least my opinion!) unanswerable.

Solobill Laville: Where is your mind during the exercise, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: Well Solo, there is no answer to that question
Storm Nordwind: During the exercise, your question is meaningless

Hmm... that sounded a bit abrupt!

Solobill Laville: Let me clarify it a bit
Solobill Laville: Do you center your mind in your belly, for example?
Fefonz Quan: Hey Sam :)
Solobill Laville: Hello, Sam!
Storm Nordwind: Prior to the exercise? Hmmm I would have to try and see, but not deliberately so
Fefonz Quan: that link got into my favorites in no time :)
Fefonz Quan: i will be glad to go over your notes there storm.

Meanwhile Sam drifted in and out.

Storm Nordwind: Hello Samuel
Samuel Okelly: hello every1 :)
Storm Nordwind: You join us at the end because we'll very likely go to the Kira Cafe in a few minutes!
Samuel Okelly: ahhh i see :)
Samuel Okelly: just thought id stop by and say hi" :)
Samuel Okelly: tc every1 :)
Storm Nordwind: You're always welcome to do so Sam :)

Solo persisted. And I could only respond in what seemed to be rather grand terms.

Solobill Laville: Do you conceptualize your mind, as that which frames the perspective?
Solobill Laville: e.g. as in, Seeing "from" somewhere...
Storm Nordwind: No Solo
Storm Nordwind: You ARE everything there is to see. You are distant worlds being created and destroyed. You see and you are simultaneously
Fefonz Quan: that sounds amazing Storm, although i believe we should try it for ourselves...
Storm Nordwind: That is the only way Fefonz

Fefonz returned to time

Fefonz Quan: i should be honest here and reveal that the reason i asked that question over and over is that the concept of no time
Fefonz Quan: is one of my major topic in contemplation nowadays
Storm Nordwind nods
Fefonz Quan: infact, maybe you know that i sit in Pema's offices in teh IAS
Storm Nordwind: Yes
Fefonz Quan: and that is tha main topic we defined for contemplation and examination
Fefonz Quan: :)
Solobill Laville: Contemplating time is a koan
Fefonz Quan: for me it is somehow more difficult than no-self
Storm Nordwind: The experience I speak of removes all separation, of any kind. Although this is instantly obvious with space, perhaps you will notice it happening with time.
Solobill Laville: Do you need to solve it? :)
Fefonz Quan: no need, Solo)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Fefonz Quan: solve, dissolve, whatever comes first
Fefonz Quan: :)
Fefonz Quan: yes, still there is change there, isn't it?

We touched on a deep paradox.

Solobill Laville: What I am trying to get at is what is left, in the state of removal of separation, Storm
Solobill Laville: I am working (intellectually) on the difference between "no-ego" and "no-self"
Storm Nordwind: To be able to say "It is that" you become separate. That is why the question is meaningless when there is no separation!
Fefonz Quan: the question of change is meaningless?
Storm Nordwind: No, the question of "what is left" is meaningless

But we'd run out of time.

Storm Nordwind: Let us go to the Cafe for the workshop
Solobill Laville: wonders...I think I know your meaning, though
Storm Nordwind smiles
Solobill Laville: I must bow out of the workshop, friends :)
Storm Nordwind: Oh OK
Fefonz Quan: yes, hope to continue that some"time"
Solobill Laville: hehe
Solobill Laville: Bye for now!
Storm Nordwind: Bye Solo
Storm Nordwind: Coming?
Fefonz Quan: yep :)