2009.02.15 07:00 - Daring to be Naked

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

     I arrived first and was soon joined by Geo and before too long, Pema. I was wearing a "Novice" tag as a reminder to go back to thinking like a beginner. This was partly inspried by my work on the Chronicles, i.e. witnessing my willingness to be open to whatever came my way last June when I started PaB. There is a bit more to it and I felt a bit as if my skin might be glass and everyone could see inside.

    Adams Rubble: Hello Geo :)

    Adams Rubble: I hope you are well :)
    Geo Netizen: Yes ... and you?
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I am. thanks :)
    Adams Rubble: Did you by any chance get to the exhibition?
    Geo Netizen: No ... The past couple weeks have bee very busy for me
    Adams Rubble: ah. OK. If you do, I would be interested in your thoughts
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: The Art History was our first concern but we touched on the spiritual and it is hard to know how we did on that end
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Geo Netizen: Today and tomorrow should be more open … I do want to take a look … hopefully I’ll be able to get over there.
    Adams Rubble: Is there anything you would like to talk about today?

    Geo asks about my tag...

    Geo Netizen: I see you are a "Novice" at something in particular?
    Geo Netizen: :)
    Adams Rubble: Yes, you are the first person who has asked :)
    Adams Rubble: Good morning Pema :)
    Geo Netizen: Hi Pema
    Adams Rubble: Since I have come in to PaB I have been looking inward at myself
    Pema Pera: Hi Geo, Adams!
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: So good to see you again, Geo!!
    Adams Rubble: I am beginning to think more about looking outward
    Adams Rubble: The "novice" is a reminder to me
    Adams Rubble: I am not very good at it :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Geo Netizen: Excellent approach
    Pema Pera: indeed!
    Geo Netizen: That's a good idea
    Geo Netizen: Like approaching it "as a beginner"

    Pema reminds us that looking outward is related to Love

    Pema Pera: Actually that is one of Christianity's strong points, the outward part, love thy neighbor
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: Yes, and Paul emphasizes it so
    Adams Rubble: Love that is
    Geo Netizen: And John
    Geo Netizen: :)

    Selena, Corvi, Udge and Scath arrive in quick succession

    Adams Rubble: Hello Selena :)
    selena Quar: hello
    Pema Pera: Hi Selena!
    selena Quar: hi
    Geo Netizen: Hi Selena
    selena Quar: hi
    Adams Rubble: Good morning Corvi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi, Adams, Geo, Pema, Selena
    Adams Rubble: Good afternoon Udge :)
    Geo Netizen: Hi Corvi
    Geo Netizen smiles
    Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
    Udge Watanabe: afternoon invisible people.
    Pema Pera: Glad you came back, Selena :)
    selena Quar: :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Udge!!
    Geo Netizen nods to Udge
    Adams Rubble is enjoying watching the shadows circling the fountain :)
    Adams Rubble: whoops Seelena is gone

     Pema and simultaneously try to open some discussion in the midst of the greetings

    Adams Rubble: Does anyone have anything to report regarding the nine seconds or anything else?
    Pema Pera: I'm curious to hear how we are all working with having versus being
    Pema Pera: what it means to drop what you have to see what you are
    Adams Rubble: Hello Scath :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Scathach!
    Udge Watanabe: hello scathach
    Geo Netizen: Hi Scathach
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Adams, Pema:)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Scath!
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Udge, Corvi, Geo:)
    Pema Pera: what happens when we try to drop what we have?
    Pema Pera: it that easy, or hard, or . . . ?

    Pema succeeds....

    Adams Rubble has been forgetting to do this but it may be happening inadvertantly
    Geo Netizen: Seems redirecting outward may be another way to drop what we have and refocus on what we are
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Udge Watanabe: I've been reading the logs of recent sessions, and note that a mutual friend of ours is really struggling with that detachment when it comes to discussions of religion
    Geo Netizen smiles
    Udge Watanabe: she identifies strongly with her non-religion, as it were, and becomes personally affronted when it is attacked.
    Pema Pera: yes, it is all a matter of attachment and identification -- not denying, forcing, avoiding -- rather accepting but in a "light" way, no heavy-handed
    Pema Pera getting curious about Udge's oracular speech . . . .
    Pema Pera: could it be . . .
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble slowly gets the idea

    ...and with our brief answers given, Pema "tells us more" about how this is all about dropping what we have or think we have

    Pema Pera: so the dropping of what we have really is the dropping of over-attachment to what we have
    Pema Pera: nothing needs to be cut off or lost in any way
    Udge Watanabe: yes, I think so.
    Pema Pera: neither outer nor inner
    Pema Pera: neither others nor self
    Pema Pera: whether the self is real, who cares?
    Pema Pera: don't associate too strongly with your self image
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: that's all
    We begin to look into what it is we "have"
    Geo Netizen: What we have is not who we are; many have great confusion over that
    Pema Pera: then you can be happy Buddhist or happy Hindu or whatever
    Adams Rubble gets very confused about that
    Pema Pera: yes, Geo!
    Geo Netizen: They identify who they are with the job they do for example
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or happy not any of the above?
    Udge Watanabe: geo, I think that is partly because it is hammered into us at an early age.
    Pema Pera: up to you, Corvi :)
    Geo Netizen: I have a job ... I am not the job
    Pema Pera: I have needs!
    Pema Pera: tough one, that one
    Udge Watanabe: Be good, be obedient, follow this and that tack, but not the other
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: I have loneliness -- very powerful one!
    Geo Netizen: but I am not those needs
    Pema's next statement hits something I had recently observed in myself as one of my "selves" re-emerged very needy

    Pema Pera: I have a need for someone outside to do what I cannot do myself . . . .
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: in contrast: I can open up to what I am and share that
    Pema Pera: true love, not neediness
    Pema Pera: not possessiveness
    Geo Netizen: Hmmmm very broad topic

    Adams Rubble: Yes!
    Pema Pera: yes perhaps this is the only topic
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    Pema Pera: and everything else are variations
    Scathach Rhiadra: dropping the 'clinging' can be very liberating
    Pema Pera: !!

     From liberating to terrifying as we continuing the thread of seeking to satisfy our needs from others

    Udge Watanabe: but also terrifying, I think.
    Udge Watanabe: because you stand naked then, before yourself.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I agree:)
    Geo Netizen: When we identify our being with these things needed … yes it can be terrifying
    Adams Rubble: hmmm. Not quite terrifying but a little scary at first
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: terrifying.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Geo Netizen nods
    Udge Watanabe: one person#s terror is another#s gentle frisson.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: probably.
    Udge Watanabe: how do I know that your broken leg hurts more than my hangnail?
    Adams Rubble stands corrected
    Geo Netizen: To try to give them up feels like giving your self away … will there be anything left??
    Udge Watanabe: heheheh, sorry Adams, it wasn't intended as a correction.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Geo Netizen watches Pema bang away at the keys and waits...
    Adams Rubble was taken with Pema's statement that we look to others for what we think we need and do not have
    Adams Rubble: If I said that correctly
    Pema Pera: most of those in the past who have truly seen have reported on pretty terrifying journeys to get to the point where they could really see clearly . . . but perhaps that is related to starting with too limited a view of religion and spiritual practices . . . .
    Pema Pera: Yes, we think we need others to provide us with something
    Pema Pera: so we treat others as providers, not freely as others to love and share openness with

    ..and the cost of seeing others as providers...

    Pema Pera: we plunder the Earth and frankly, subtly, we plunder our friends
    Pema Pera: and we plunder ourselves
    Pema Pera: in desperation
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ourselves?
    Pema Pera: until we learn to drop what we have
    Adams Rubble: We certainly limit ourselves
    Pema Pera: yes, we shortchange ourselves
    Pema Pera: a form of plundering
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Pema Pera: view ourselves as too limited, unworthy, needy
    Pema Pera: 'cause we stare ourselves blind at what we have, forgetting to see what we are
    Pema Pera in an unusually serious mood :-)
    Geo Netizen: at least we bury ourselves
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Adams Rubble enjoying Pema's serious mood
    Adams Rubble: learning from it
    Pema Pera: brimstone!!
    Pema Pera: oh yea of little faith!!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ha!
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    Adams Rubble has heard brimstone and this isn't brimstone :)
    Pema Pera: it's brimming at least, I hope
    Adams Rubble not quaking yet
    Geo Netizen: looking at other as providers: as a source of gratification
    Pema Pera: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Pema Pera: very hard to see that
    Pema Pera: but when you really see it, easy to drop or at least to relax the tendency
    Scathach Rhiadra: we love to be loved, not just giving love

    Yes Scath, isn't that so true

    Pema Pera: the 9-sec can be a great practice
    Pema Pera: dropping bit by bit what we have, ALL that we have . . . .
    Pema Pera: even if we "give" love we tend to have the wrong picture
    Geo Netizen: We ask “who am I” … an interesting question: “Who are you” asked from my perspective.
    Pema Pera: as if I hand over something to you
    Geo Netizen: Are you provider
    Pema Pera: rather than totally free and open sharing
    Geo Netizen: are you gratifier?
    Adams Rubble: Yes George
    Pema Pera: yes, Geo, nice switch!
    Adams Rubble: We miss the person
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera too

    Drum rolls.....and now the title.... and then some pleasant banter...

    Pema Pera: Daring to be naked is a very unusual kind of gift to give, to yourself and to others both . . . . the gift of dropping what you have, what you have been clinging to . . . .
    Geo Netizen: pealing back the layers that we and others have grafted over us
    Adams Rubble looks at all the layers and sighs
    Geo Netizen: The labels .... the expectations
    Pema Pera: yes, and that is where phenomenology can help, to notice the layers
    Geo Netizen: the prejudices
    Geo Netizen nods
    Geo Netizen sinks into thought
    Pema Pera looking at an ad in the train (from Boston to New York this time): "what do you need to succeed" -- and suddenly thinking to change the words: "why do you think you need to succeed?"
    Udge Watanabe: heheheheh
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pema Pera: "and what would success mean?"
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Udge Watanabe: "aren't you already successful beyond measure?"
    Pema Pera: !!
    Udge Watanabe: brb
    Pema Pera: just past through the town of Mystic -- must rub off!
    Pema Pera: Mystic, CT
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: *passed
    Pema Pera: Beautiful sunny morning, blue sky, yellow marshes . . .
    Adams Rubble: That is a lovely stretch of track
    Udge Watanabe: I know that route, taken it many times between NYC and friends in Newport RI

    Passing through with a Mooring

    Pema Pera sad to miss the next two PaB sessions, coinciding with his flight from JFK to LA . . . leaving right at 1 pm SLT
    Pema Pera: Odd life: I will take a taxi cab from New York Penn Station directly to JFK airport; no time even to go home . . . .
    Udge Watanabe: home is the departure lounge...
    Udge Watanabe: or the suitcase
    Pema Pera: :)
    Udge Watanabe: or the laptop.
    Pema Pera: home is also here, in this pavilion . . . .
    Geo Netizen smiles
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: the one constant in all my travels!
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Udge Watanabe: do people in the train ever ask you what you#re doing?
    Udge Watanabe: (in SL...)
    Pema Pera: My first virtual world was Videoranch, just about two years ago . . . and logging in for the third time or so after flying to Osaka, right there at the airport, was an amazing experience -- hadn't left, after 14 hours of flying, came back to the same place . . . .
    Pema Pera: that was one of my eye openers for the power of virtual worlds
    Pema Pera: finding my buddies at Osaka airport
    Udge Watanabe nods.
    Pema Pera: all pretending nothing had happened!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Pema Pera: Yes, Udge, they look over my shoulders, quizzically
    Pema Pera: rarely ask
    Pema Pera: but happy if I tell them
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: "what, you play video games as part of your work???"
    Pema Pera: "and get paid to study black holes???"
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Pema Pera makes many people envious, . . . ., but what can he do?
    Adams Rubble: Some of that rubs off on us too as we picture you, and others, from so many aprts of the world...making it smaller and more like a neighborhood
    Pema Pera: you too, Adams, sharing your Art History with us !!
    Pema Pera: leading us across centuries and continents with your exhibit
    Pema Pera: I think we all, each in our own way, are enriching each other and the whole PaB community . . . . palpably so

    And then, Korii, a newcomer to us but an "oldtimer" in Second Life arrives. Korii is wearing the most delicate wings I have ever seen and I miss some conversation staring at them. Althoug I am unaware of it for some time, I crash somewhere during this time

    Geo Netizen: Hi Korii
    Pema Pera: Hi Korii!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Korii
    Pema Pera: How nice to see you here!!
    Pema Pera: Come join us
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Korii
    Udge Watanabe: hello korii
    Udge Watanabe: oh wow, born in 2005. An old-timer
    Korii Tiger: ^.^
    Korii Tiger: hello
    Pema Pera: Have you been here before, Korii?
    Korii Tiger: nope
    Pema Pera: Korii is one of my astrophysics friends
    Geo Netizen: Ahhh -SellaNova- :)
    Korii Tiger: ^.^
    Pema Pera: yes, StellaNova is what it is because of Korii
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Korii Tiger blushes
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pema Pera: She has done a lot of the landscaping there and general building up
    Korii Tiger: what were we talking about befor i interupted?

    Hmm. Was was it we were talking about?

    Adams Rubble: Korii, do you know we are being recorded and it appears on the Wiki. Do you have any objections to that?
    Korii Tiger: yes i do
    Korii Tiger: i don' t mind
    Geo Netizen: Hmmm. I think we had gone to the affirmation mode :)
    Pema Pera: We were talking about love beyond possessiveness and neediness
    Adams Rubble: thank you :)
    Pema Pera: quite a bit topic
    Pema Pera: about dropping addiction to what you have, to see what you are
    Pema Pera: in a very broad way

    Korii gets right into it as if she was a regular

    Korii Tiger: alost sounsds metaphysical
    Pema Pera: as you can imagine, we didn't finish yet :-)
    Pema Pera: oh, but we are very practical
    Geo Netizen: dropping addiction to what you need, to see what the other is
    Pema Pera: comparing it with our every-day life
    Korii Tiger nods.
    Pema Pera: reporting how we struggle with putting it into practice
    Korii Tiger: did we consider why we have a hard tiem putting them into practice?
    Pema Pera: we seem to forget the obvious . . . . and cling to the habit of self-protection . . . .
    Korii Tiger: instincts..

    What we do in PaB:

    Pema Pera: the obvious being that opening up for others is the greatest gift you can give someone
    Pema Pera: so we remind each other here in this group
    Korii Tiger: that comes with a catch tho.. a lot of people you may open up to would take considerable advantage of that.. takign what they can...how does oen elarn to be compelatly oppen and stil safe?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Korii
    Geo Netizen: they can only take advantage of those layers that should be shed
    Korii Tiger: thats something i've personaly experimented with over the years.. partioularly in SL .. i don' t think i've ever been so vulnerable befor.
    Pema Pera: but often we just joke or are silly -- or just quiet :-)
    Korii Tiger: hmmm

    Udge Changes the thread slightly:

    Udge Watanabe: my answer, and it might be a bad one, is that you don't open up to everyone.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I agree, Korii..that seem sto me to be my dilemma..how to be open...how to shed..without losing boundaries....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that I don't have such a good grip on, anyway.
    Geo Netizen kami lag strikes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..I think....that the lack of safety is more acute when I am holding on to "self"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there is so much more to lose.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and given what we said before..that we are trying to be gratified
    Korii Tiger: my experioances in that have been diferant.. the more open i am the more vulnerable i feel.. but i'm also quiter adept at shields..
    Geo Netizen: wb Pema
    Korii Tiger: wb Pema
    Udge Watanabe: wb pema
    Geo Netizen: protecting those layers
    Korii Tiger: no the leylers protect the dore.
    Korii Tiger: core
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...or just not being hurt by what people throw at me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and not being led so much by "want"
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire guffaws.
    Geo Netizen: When we talk about opening up, I find I'm usually talking about exposing a layer that is one that has been applied to me and not part of who I am.
    Udge Watanabe: how do the poor ducks use their cellphones?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Geo.
    Korii Tiger fp;ds her hands.
    Korii Tiger: folds too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm focused in this on the layers added by "need/want"
    Geo Netizen nods
    Korii Tiger nods
    Geo Netizen: We and others add layers over our being, layers which we and others use to identify and label us. Layers of class, job, religion, etc
    Geo Netizen: They are just that, layers added on and not part of who we are
    Geo Netizen: It is those layers that people access to take advantage of us
    Geo Netizen: But we don't need the layers
    Korii Tiger: oh./. those leyers
    Korii Tiger: i shed those years ago.
    Geo Netizen: If you feel people are able to take advantage of you, then perhaps there are more layers
    Korii Tiger: I mean when i was younge i did the christian thing and the goth thing and this that and the othjer.. i did them cause I had a need for acceptance a need to label myself as a definition to others.. but then... as i got older.. i realized i didn't really need that.. i didn''t need acceptence from others i didn't need a label or a group.. i simply became me... uninterested by the thoughts and opinions of others.,, now i simply exsist here doing what i can for others where i can.. because its in my nature to help others..

    I arrive back with Pema gone (Hmm maybe the problem wasn't on my end)

    Udge Watanabe: wb adams
    Scathach Rhiadra: wb Adams:)
    Korii Tiger: wb adams
    Adams Rubble: thanks all :)
    Geo Netizen: Labels are one type of layer
    Korii Tiger: mmm hmm..
    Geo Netizen: When you were introduced two more types of layers were mentioned
    Geo Netizen: What you do: astrophysics
    Korii Tiger: elaberate
    Korii Tiger: i don't.
    Geo Netizen: and your connections: who you know
    Korii Tiger: i just like to learn about it.
    Geo Netizen: O ...
    Geo Netizen: point is what our job is is another layer
    Korii Tiger: i don';t have a job
    Korii Tiger: i never even bothered witht hat layer
    Geo Netizen: or volunteer work or major in school ... or ....
    Korii Tiger: can we help those too?
    Geo Netizen: perhaps you have stripped off all layers ... it has been done :)
    Korii Tiger: soicizaty more or less dictates we msut go throough those things in life.. to get dsome where.. that is one of the aspects of life i've avoided the most..
    Geo Netizen: I know that I have not
    Udge Watanabe wonders how to introduce yourself without mentioning any of those things.
    Udge Watanabe: (assume ofor the moment that "introducing yourelf" is a worthwhile activity)
    Korii Tiger: i never even graduated higschool and i supose that in itelf is a lyer.. but those layers to me.. seem to be more of an outsiders perseption.. and i do not have to adheare to it or accept that as part of my personaly.
    Korii Tiger: well
    Korii Tiger: if i was given the chance to introduice myselkf
    Korii Tiger: i jsut would have said korii
    Korii Tiger: you seee..
    Korii Tiger: not all layers are held onto
    Korii Tiger: some are jsu tforced onto us by others peope perseptions
    Korii Tiger: which i chose to ignore
    Scathach Rhiadra: is our view of our 'self' not one of the hardest layers to drop?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but it seems to me there is another layer of layers: "how _I_ approach the world...what _I_ choose to do in each similar situation.
    Geo Netizen: Except there is a core being that is eternally unique (IMO of course)
    Geo Netizen: and we strip layers seeking that core
    Korii Tiger nods...
    Geo Netizen nods still thinking about Corvi's comment
    Geo Netizen and Scathach's comment
    Geo Netizen sinks again into thought
    Adams Rubble: Hello scomael
    Geo Netizen: Hi Scomael
    Geo Netizen: Thinks of a quote and hope no one minds to much * A good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent upon arriving. A good artist lets her intuition lead her wherever it wants. A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps her mind open to what is.
    Korii Tiger smiles.

    A new person, scomael, arrives on his first day in SL

    scomael Savira: hello
    Korii Tiger: hello
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Scomael
    Geo Netizen: Hi Scomael .... have you been here before
    Geo Netizen: ?
    scomael Savira: no new to all this
    Geo Netizen: We have discussions which are recorded and
    Adams Rubble: Welcome to Second Life :)
    Geo Netizen: put up on Wiki
    Udge Watanabe: hello scomael, sorry, I was distracted.
    Geo Netizen: do you mind if you are included?
    scomael Savira: i dont mind
    Geo Netizen can't seem to find his notecard on P&B
    Adams Rubble: I sent him one Geo :)
    Geo Netizen: Thanks
    Geo Netizen: Can you give me another one Adams? seem to have lost mine :(
    Adams Rubble: Will do :)
    Geo Netizen: TY
    Adams Rubble: They also can be picked up at the information posts outside the pavilion
    Adams Rubble: One of my layers this morning is GOC. hehe
    Udge Watanabe smiles
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Geo Netizen: That is true ... roles can be layers
    Geo Netizen: but only if we identify with them
    Geo Netizen: if they become part of who we are
    Adams Rubble not wearing the Playasbing identification tag
    Geo Netizen: I -do- like the Novice tag ....
    Adams Rubble: We are returning full circle :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..like the fool card in tarot
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it reminds me that I am always new.
    We begin to break up
    Geo Netizen: Yes we are .... and I have to get ready to travel to a meeting
    Scathach Rhiadra: I have to head off now, nice meeting you Korii, see you all soon:)
    Udge Watanabe: and I really need to go for a walk.
    Adams Rubble: Thanks for being here today Geo. Have a good meeting :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Udge, Geo.
    Udge Watanabe: nice meeting you Korii, take care.
    Geo Netizen: Again … a stimulating discussion that has provided food for thought to keep me occupied many days
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Scath
    Korii Tiger: i have to go too.. Nice to meet you all.
    Adams Rubble: and Scath and Udge too :)
    Udge Watanabe: bye all, be happy and un-labelled
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Korrii
    Geo Netizen: Thank you all
    Adams Rubble: and Korii too :)
    Adams Rubble: nice to meet you Korii. I love your wings
    Udge Watanabe: bye for now.
    Adams Rubble: bye Udge
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It was good to see you, today, Adams.
    Adams Rubble: very good to see you today. have a good day :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: we said almost the same thing :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
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