2009.02.22 13:00 - Opinions, explorations, respect

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session, sitting in for Maxine. 

    Wol Euler: evening samuel

    Samuel Okelly: hi wol :)

    Wol Euler: brb

    Samuel Okelly: k

    Wol Euler: back

    Wol Euler: have you been going to Stim's lectures on the Contemplative Traditions?

    Wol Euler: I think I saw you at the first one

    Wol Euler: hello pema

    Pema Pera: Hi Wol and Sam!

    Wol Euler: how are you today, Pema?

    Pema Pera: fine, glad to be home, after the traveling here and there of the last week

    Wol Euler: :)

    Pema Pera: and how about you?

    Wol Euler: meh. Middling. fear that I am catching a cold.

    Wol Euler: otherwise OK :)

    Pema Pera had only seen the term "midling" in translations from Sanskrit to English so far :-)

    Wol Euler: heheheh, wonder if it means the same as I feel.

    Pema Pera: I'm sure what you feel would sound more interesting when expressed in Sanskrit, don't you think?

    Wol Euler chuckles.

    Wol Euler: like listening to foreign-language films in the original, what they say always sounds more interseting than what's in the subtitles

    Pema Pera: like "the two truths of catching a cold and being also perfectly all right"

    Pema Pera: must be a very long word in Sanskrit

    Wol Euler: well, physical and mental/psychic/spiritually

    Pema Pera: yes, I know the feeling, growing up in Holland almost all films were foreign and subtitled!

    Wol Euler smiles

    Wol Euler: I came close to believing that I could undestatnd Russian, from watching subtitled films (Tarkovsky)

    Moon Fargis: greetings

    Pema Pera: Hi Moon!

    Wol Euler: an illusion, of course, similar to deja vu, due to the very short time between seeing/reading the words and hearing htem spoken

    Wol Euler: hello moon

    Wol Euler: and hello tarmel

    Wol Euler: and scathach! good evening

    Moon Fargis: hi tarm sca and dug >(

    Moon Fargis: :)

    Wol Euler: and doug. indeed.

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Wol:)

    Pema Pera: Hi Tarmel and Scathach and Doug!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)

    Wol Euler: busy session tonight.

    doug Sosa: hi all.

    Pema Pera: all of a sudden, yes!

    Moon Fargis: mmh *nods*

    Tarmel Udimo: hi doug moon pema wol and scath and sam

    Samuel Okelly: back

    Moon Fargis: well goo just want to announce that the Pab library, as its the main building and the rooms with furniture, is finished now, sure it was an hobby project so it too its time :)

    Wol Euler: wb sam

    Moon Fargis: that means i will sonn write a email that explains how you can add books to the library

    Moon Fargis: and articles

    doug Sosa: wonderful.

    Wol Euler: cool

    Tarmel Udimo: hey that's wonderful

    doug Sosa: how do we find it?

    Scathach Rhiadra: that's great

    Moon Fargis: should be on the tp boards of pab

    Wol Euler: hello fefonz

    Moon Fargis: but i also have a lm :)

    Tarmel Udimo: hey fefonz

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz

    Fefonz Quan: Hey everybody :-)

    Pema Pera: Hi Fef!

    Pema Pera: congratulations, Moon!

    Pema Pera: Glad to hear that

    doug Sosa: thank you.

    Moon Fargis: thx now we need pictures and stuff as it shall also be a little art gallery

    Scathach Rhiadra: some pics of PaB meetings

    Moon Fargis: yes maybe also picts that are insightfull

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Pema Pera wondering whether PaB meeting pictures are insightful or not . . . .

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Pema Pera: btw, Moon, have you heard about the 12-year Kira birthday party, Tuesday?

    Moon Fargis: yep

    Samuel Okelly: please excuse me again every1 :(

    Wol Euler: hb sam

    Pema Pera: and have you heard about the circle of booth outside the Kira Cafe, in which we advertise the various Kira activities, Moon?

    Moon Fargis: ehm.. no .. or i cant remember wich often happens :)

    Wol Euler: corvi and gen and I had a look on Thursday, it looks very nice

    Tarmel Udimo: here it comes:-)

    Pema Pera: well, we have a circle of booth, one for PaB, one for Adams' Art project, one for each Kira workshop, some 15 or so in total

    Tarmel Udimo: its super!

    Wol Euler: and a lovely fountain

    Pema Pera: Would you like us to reserve a booth for you, to meet people to talk about the PaB library?

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it looks great

    Fefonz Quan: with cushions

    Pema Pera: from 1 to 3 pm on Tuesday

    Pema Pera: so that is for you 10 pm to midnight Tuesday evening

    Moon Fargis: sure

    Pema Pera: will you be available during that time?

    Pema Pera: great!

    Moon Fargis: as i have my meditation at 12 it will work

    Pema Pera: Well, I suggest that you go over right now toyour booth :-)

    Pema Pera: I am IMing Caledonia who is waiting for you.

    Pema Pera: http://slurl.com/secondlife/BaikUn/254/96/251

    Moon Fargis: hmhmms yes sir!

    Fefonz Quan: Pema, don't send moon away from us so soon ...

    Pema Pera: thank you !

    Tarmel Udimo: bye moooooooooooon

    Pema Pera: he'll be back, Fefonz

    Fefonz Quan: too late :)

    Wol Euler: bye moon, take care

    Tarmel Udimo: ****Howlllzzzzzzzz****

    Pema Pera: librarian on duty !

    Fefonz Quan: infact even if found he can be in both places in parallel, i wouldn't be surprised

    Pema Pera: too early . . .

    Pema Pera: Caledonia just reported that the sim is offline . . . .

    Pema Pera: oh well

    Wol Euler: oops

    Pema Pera: ah!

    Wol Euler: guess moon will be back sooner than he thought

    Fefonz Quan: sim's not :)

    Pema Pera: it all feels like an episode of Startrek

    Pema Pera: will they make it to the surface of the planet?

    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh startrek

    Wol Euler: and will Kirk get his end away this time?

    Fefonz Quan: oh, good old Spock

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Wol Euler blushes and puts her hand over her mouth

    Tarmel Udimo: will he fall in love AGAIN?

    Fefonz Quan: we are all giving away our age here

    Wol Euler: :)

    Tarmel Udimo: a friend mentioned startreck the other day and satred talking about kirk and spock and looked at me aghast

    Tarmel Udimo: yes we are he thought I was refering to captin pickard

    Fefonz Quan: yep. *boldly* go where no man has gone before :)

    Samuel Okelly: back (again ;-)

    Pema Pera admits that he enjoyed TNG of Pickard far more than earlier or later series

    Tarmel Udimo: yep straight into being

    Wol Euler: wb sam

    Tarmel Udimo: yes?

    Tarmel Udimo: more advanced!

    Fefonz Quan didn't watch TNG...

    Samuel Okelly: loved TNG and Voyager but never really took to DS9 though odo fascinated me :)

    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh pema who would have thought a TREKKIE

    Scathach Rhiadra: the characters were better realised in TNG, more rounded

    Fefonz Quan: yes, Pickard was round ;-)

    Scathach Rhiadra: his head was:)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Fefonz Quan: my point exactly

    Pema Pera: and the stories were far more intricate and complex in TNG . . ..

    Tarmel Udimo: yes they were

    Scathach Rhiadra: I loved Q

    Fefonz Quan: they even predicted the cell phones

    Pema Pera: yeah, Q was great!

    Pema Pera: the anti-Pickard

    Samuel Okelly: i always thought Q was a very unconvincing character

    Fefonz Quan: drakcip?

    Pema Pera: he convinced me, at least during his relatively short appearances

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Pema Pera: but he was a bit out of place, yes, Sam

    Pema Pera: I guess they didn't know how to work him in further

    Pema Pera: more a comic relief

    Samuel Okelly: for all of his power he was remarkably ignorant of mankind

    Fefonz Quan: well, that happens...

    Pema Pera: probably not that interested :)

    Samuel Okelly: on the contrary, Q found mankind fascinating didnt he?

    Scathach Rhiadra: as a species we are probably not all that interesting:)

    Samuel Okelly: hence all his challenges

    Pema Pera: well, fascinating enough to play for a while, I guess :)

    Wol Euler: wb moon

    Wol Euler: and riddle, welcome

    Moon Fargis: rehi

    Scathach Rhiadra: wb Moon

    Fefonz Quan: wb Moon

    Samuel Okelly: hi moo / rid

    Riddle Sideways: Hi Everybody, sorry I am late

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Riddle

    Fefonz Quan: hey riddle

    Tarmel Udimo: hey riddle

    Pema Pera: hi Riddle

    Samuel Okelly: I think Q was a portrayal of a God like figure that was designed to appeal to a secular audience

    Riddle Sideways: please don't let me stop the conversation :)

    Moon Fargis: star trek Q ?

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Samuel Okelly: an omnipotent power WITH limitations that restricted his understanding and those same limitation were to be found in the humans

    Moon Fargis: hmhmm

    Riddle Sideways: he said he was an immature Q

    Pema Pera: a kind of demiurg?

    Moon Fargis: well Q knowed everything... beside one thing, humanity

    Samuel Okelly: like I say, Q to me was an unconvincing character of contredictions

    Scathach Rhiadra: well, I enjoyed him:)

    Riddle Sideways: they could have done soo much more with that character

    Riddle Sideways: besides looking foolish

    Riddle Sideways: Q always looksstupid at the end of the show

    Riddle Sideways: sometimes his mommy called him home for supper

    Pema Pera: fun to see such different reactions . . .

    Pema Pera: and yes, all recognizable :)

    Riddle Sideways: But Q is a very model for PaB

    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow

    Riddle Sideways: we can think ourselves being Being

    Riddle Sideways: just not very good at it yet

    Wol Euler: :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Riddle Sideways: born to it, but not mature enough... maybe

    Samuel Okelly: here is like being part of the Q Continuum??

    Riddle Sideways: yes

    Fefonz Quan: back

    Scathach Rhiadra: wb Fef

    Riddle Sideways: the continuum gets together to discuss their playings

    Fefonz Quan: i see i didn't miss my Q ;)

    Wol Euler: wb fefonz

    Tarmel Udimo: this SL and RL life does get confusing sometimes....

    Samuel Okelly: do we discuss here or merely put forward our views?

    Riddle Sideways: both and more

    Pema Pera: we converse . . .

    Pema Pera pondering playing as Being vs. playing as Q . . . .

    Samuel Okelly: during the relatively short time I have been here, I have only witnessed "opinion" as opposed to actual exploration (this is not a criticism btw)

    Fefonz Quan: well, i saw at least conversation in order to understand other opinions

    Fefonz Quan: (and more come to think of it)

    Pema Pera: the main explorations we do by ourselves, in the middle of our lives, through the 9-sec steps and whatever else we bring to bear ourselves

    Pema Pera: and here we talk about what we find, and of course the talking can be part of the explorations

    Fefonz Quan: (brb)

    Pema Pera: I've learned a lot, comparing notes with others

    Moon Fargis: yes or the dressing

    Pema Pera: hearing about the experiences and interpretations thereof from others, and sharing those of myself

    Riddle Sideways: ha, moon

    Samuel Okelly: That I s precisely my point pema, the benfits for all who attend here appear personal not shared

    Pema Pera: really? I am surprised, Sam, that is not how I feel it

    Wol Euler: nor I

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Wol Euler: there is I think a commonality of benefit, of experience.

    Moon Fargis: hmm sam well dont think of benefits

    Tarmel Udimo: yes, a group of people I feel really connected to

    Pema Pera: in fact, we often talk about how happy we are in sharing so much here . . .

    Riddle Sideways: yes, a 'I am not alone' sharing

    Wol Euler: we often report similar experiences and feelings and results. Not exactly the same.

    Moon Fargis: more think of knowledge and awareness

    Pema Pera: but perhaps you were expecting something different ?

    Samuel Okelly: i am keen to stress this is NOT a criticism - far from it - but I am merely suggesting that if, for any given topic, I want to gain a range of views then the internet in general affords me that opportunity

    Pema Pera: yes, I appreciate hearing your views, Sam; I am honestly curious what it is that strikes you as "not sharing" here

    Moon Fargis: *meow meow*

    Tarmel Udimo: and when in doubt there is always Moon's ever loving atempts to keep us happy and loved :-)

    Samuel Okelly: it is simply the fact that i feel topics or issues are not explored here in the sense they are not "discussed" ... views are offered for the consideration of others and to do with as they see fit

    Pema Pera: it may be cultural, Sam

    Pema Pera: there is the "philosophers" culture of going head to head

    Samuel Okelly: quite possibly :)

    Pema Pera: and there is the culture here of showing each other in our cupped hands what nice little birds or flowers we recently came across

    Pema Pera: before we set them free again

    Moon Fargis: or more wich we never saw but start to see them slowly

    Pema Pera: :)

    Tarmel Udimo: :-)

    Tarmel Udimo: beautifully put pema

    Wol Euler: I'm curious about this, because it seems to me that we do nothing but discuss.

    Tarmel Udimo: I agree

    Wol Euler: which aspect of "discussion" is missing in your opinion, sam?

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Riddle Sideways: there have been many: "I am stuck..." dialogs

    Moon Fargis: hmhm well this is sl i think our first way to comunicate is over chat

    Riddle Sideways: there have been "am I going the rightt directions..."

    Wol Euler nods to Riddle

    Samuel Okelly: discussion for me involves exploration and here i see only submission (as valuable as that is in its own right)

    Scathach Rhiadra: cn you give us some example?

    Fefonz Quan: manytimes through discussion explortion come

    Samuel Okelly: hi pila

    Wol Euler: hello pila

    Riddle Sideways: hi Pila

    Pila Mulligan: greetings

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila

    Moon Fargis: hi ^^/

    Pila Mulligan: just came from the salon at Kira's

    Pema Pera: Hi Pila!

    Fefonz Quan: (RL calls again, sorry, the stuffed cabagge is ready to eat :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Wol Euler: bye fefonz, guten appetit

    Moon Fargis: ^_^ *Nahm Nahm Nahm!* ^_^

    Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Fefonz

    Pema Pera: bye Fef!

    Samuel Okelly: tc fef

    Fefonz Quan: danke shein, wol :)

    Moon Fargis: samuel: one question, do you know the bible ?

    Riddle Sideways: there are explorations... when Moon looks through our pockets for candy

    Samuel Okelly: yeah, i am aware of the book :)

    Moon Fargis: candy? pockets? ! where?!

    Pema Pera: [13:53] Samuel Okelly: discussion for me involves exploration and here i see only submission (as valuable as that is in its own right)

    Pema Pera: [13:53] Scathach Rhiadra: cn you give us some example?

    Riddle Sideways: ignoring moon is impossible

    Pema Pera: I too would like to hear a concrete example, since I'm puzzled as well . . .

    Moon Fargis: *gigles you said you got candy in your pokets hmhm ..do i have to tickle it out of you ?:)

    Pema Pera: Sam?

    Samuel Okelly: 10 people can all give an opinion and those 10 people can leave, informed with a greater understanding of the range of views that exist yet still no better equipped to resolve an issue

    Pema Pera: what would "equipped" mean for you?

    Pema Pera: beyond a deeper understanding of the issue, by walking around it and getting more familiar with its many aspects?

    Samuel Okelly: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/equipped

    Pema Pera: but Scathach asked for a concrete example, Sam

    Pema Pera: not a definition of words

    Pema Pera: can you give a specific example?

    Samuel Okelly: pema you asked me for the defination

    Pema Pera: yes, thank you!

    Pema Pera: but I also said "for you"

    Tarmel Udimo: actually pema asked mean for you

    Pema Pera: what does it mean for you, not for the dictionary

    Samuel Okelly: i think asking for a specific example is missing the point i am making

    Moon Fargis: samuel: well when you know the bible.. didnt you noticed to that its full of it from things like this ?

    Riddle Sideways: hmmmm, one example= discussion yesterday.

    Riddle Sideways: I usually politally listen to NDE talk

    Riddle Sideways: but it was related directly to OBE s

    Riddle Sideways: that gave me hours of exploration lst night

    Pema Pera: Perhaps the main characteristic of PaB is that we tend to deal with concrete examples of our life, and rarily with speculation and arguments about theoretical ideas that are divorced from actual life experience

    Samuel Okelly: it was ironic that we were prevented from talking about "abortion" here not so long a very concrete example

    Pema Pera wondering about the meaning of NDE and OBE

    Riddle Sideways: Moon, stop staring at the pockets my hakama does not have.... I have NO cookies

    Moon Fargis: yes and as 1 people can say its opinion 10 can understand it all different, but thats the way it works, we learn not by being told, we learn by mistakes and explorations

    Moon Fargis: well not anymore *takes a lollipop out of his pocket*

    Pema Pera: we don't like to talk about any political or economic or similar bone of contention in abstract ways, Sam, but if someone wants to talk about their own experience with, for example, abortion, then of course there is no reason not to

    Tarmel Udimo: I agree

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Pema Pera: Have you been involved in an abortion?

    Samuel Okelly: i would have thought so too

    Pema Pera: given that you brought it up, if I may ask?

    Samuel Okelly: it was not me who raised the topic but someone else

    Samuel Okelly: the chat log will be documented

    Tarmel Udimo: but you were upset that it wasn't explored

    Samuel Okelly: i just can not remember the date

    Samuel Okelly: not really tamel

    Samuel Okelly: just surprised

    Pema Pera: well, it is hard to argue about something that we are not currently involved in Sam, shall we return to the here and now?

    Moon Fargis: ah brb

    Pema Pera: we have enough to talk about, without reaching away into the past

    Pema Pera: you mentioned discussions, and Scathach asked for a concrete example

    Pema Pera: and you said that we were "prevented" from talking about that

    Samuel Okelly: [14:00] Samuel Okelly: i think asking for a specific example is missing the point i am making

    Pema Pera: can you remember what the "preventing" was?

    Wol Euler: Just by the way, the chat log does document this. The subject has arisen three times. Once, you raised the topic; once, Ade did in your absence; once, I did in your absence.

    Pila Mulligan: what is this subject, please?

    Samuel Okelly: earlier i said that during the relatively short time I have been here, I have only witnessed "opinion" as opposed to actual exploration

    Pema Pera: (unfortunately, I see that it is well past 2 pm already, how time flies, from Q to discussing discussions... I'm afraid I have to leave now -- I look forward to read the rest in the log)

    Wol Euler: bye for now, pema. take care

    Samuel Okelly: tc pem :)

    Pema Pera: bye everybody!

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema:)

    Tarmel Udimo: bye pema

    Riddle Sideways: bye pema

    Riddle Sideways: I too must go to RL stuff

    Riddle Sideways: bye all

    Wol Euler: bye riddle

    Samuel Okelly: tc rid :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Riddle

    Tarmel Udimo: bye riddle

    Moon Fargis: rehi

    Tarmel Udimo: I have to leave too, but before I do I have to say samuel, that in wanting to talk about an issue like abortion, perhaps you need to be more sensitive to what others may have experienced around that issue

    Tarmel Udimo: and unless you wish to discuss it on a personal level i for one find it invasive being discussed just willy nilly

    Samuel Okelly: with respect tam, you are missing the point i have made

    Tarmel Udimo: I AM NOT SAMUEL

    Samuel Okelly: k

    Scathach Rhiadra: you seem to think we all miss the points you make, Sam

    Tarmel Udimo: I think perhaps you have an agenda that is driving your need to discuss this, fair enough

    Tarmel Udimo: but be open about it

    Tarmel Udimo: don't use this place as an open forum to push your point of view

    Tarmel Udimo: there are many places in SL and RL to do that

    Samuel Okelly: k

    Tarmel Udimo: no excuse me

    Tarmel Udimo: sorry moon I have to go

    Moon Fargis: ^^ ok

    Wol Euler: 'night tarmel, take care.

    Pila Mulligan: bye Tarmel

    Scathach Rhiadra: hmm, would you like to answer the question I asked you a few sessions ago, ot do you have to rush off?

    Samuel Okelly: [14:00] Samuel Okelly: i think asking for a specific example is missing the point i am making

    Scathach Rhiadra: that is not the question i am referring to, Sam

    Samuel Okelly: k

    Scathach Rhiadra: the first time you came to a PaB session, you raised this question of where the ethical/moral values of non-theists originate... and have been raising it ever since, again and again and again, always the same topic.......

    Scathach Rhiadra: do you see any value in what we are about in PaB other than using these discussions to pursue this theist v non-theist 'origin of ethics/morality' debate?

    Samuel Okelly: like everyone scat, i do not enjoy conversing with ppl who are arrogant or disrespectful

    Samuel Okelly: i feel tam was just now

    Samuel Okelly: so maybe now is not a good time

    Scathach Rhiadra: you tried to raise it again at the start of the session yesterday evening

    Moon Fargis: samuel, please be aware, as you shout in the wood as it sounds back :)

    Moon Fargis: (ok bad translation of that sayig)

    Scathach Rhiadra: or you don't see anything in others that is not in yourself

    Moon Fargis: the problem with this communication in internet samuel is that its basicly emotionless

    Samuel Okelly: "[14:13] Tarmel Udimo: I think perhaps you have an agenda that is driving your need to discuss this, fair enough"

    Moon Fargis: and emotions are aded by the people who reads it

    Samuel Okelly: that was insulting

    Moon Fargis: except you show your emotions with smilies

    Wol Euler: samuel, she has left. we are still here.

    Samuel Okelly: i will be reluctant to "raise" any topic in future for fear that i have "an agenda"

    Pila Mulligan: how was it insulting, Sam?

    Moon Fargis: hmm you fear to rise an topic?

    Moon Fargis: or do you fear about the results and answers wich might come up that doesnt fit to yours?

    Samuel Okelly: to suggest i have come with an agenda pila

    Moon Fargis: to step forward sam, is to leave something behind

    Samuel Okelly: also when i suggest that someone may have misunderstood the point i was making that shout back at me that i am wrong

    Pila Mulligan: just guessing at what may have been going on here before I arrived, I appreciate how Sam seeks ways (here and elsewhere) to relate his strong religious beliefs to the views of people holding quite different opinios, and how that effort can involve friction and tension

    Moon Fargis: ahh hmhm i see, sam in what religion are you ?

    Pila Mulligan: I suspect Tarmel's point was not to emphasize her opinion that you may be here with an anti-abortion agenda

    Samuel Okelly: i agree pila

    Pila Mulligan: but to say that she wants you to be senstivie to how some topics may strike close to home for some people's personal expereince

    Samuel Okelly: and i think that is insulting

    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, I think you stated your agenda at the first session you attended ''Samuel Okelly: at the moment i am looking at "objective reality" and how this relates to the formation of ethics... Samuel Okelly: maybe you would like to comment on how you view "ethics" being established from a non-theistic viewpoint? Samuel Okelly: "No God = No Good"?

    Wol Euler: you find it insulting that other people may have emotions?

    Pila Mulligan: no, he thought Tarmel was seeing him as on a mission to attack abortion

    Samuel Okelly: exactly pila

    Samuel Okelly: " I think you stated your agenda at the first session"

    Samuel Okelly: scat too for that matter

    Wol Euler: well, to be honest sam, your profile gives that impression very strongly.

    Moon Fargis: and, do you have an agenda samuel ?

    Samuel Okelly: i do not deny or hide my views and my profile is open and honest

    Wol Euler: laudable.

    Samuel Okelly: it is NOT a hidden agenda

    Pila Mulligan: i think Sam's intent is similar to that of most people here, but his starting point is more distant

    Samuel Okelly: i view it as partonsingfor anybodyt to suggest otherwise

    Wol Euler: tarmel was also open and honest about her opinion.

    Scathach Rhiadra: but have you shown any interest in what we are about in PaB?, have you tried the 9-second practice?

    Moon Fargis: ahh sunset

    Moon Fargis: see my freinds, is that all meaningfull when you look at the sunset now ?

    Wol Euler smiles

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Samuel Okelly: scat, please understand that while i feel my views are being unfairly targeted by some like you, and more importantly misrepresented and disrespected i am reluctant to give further opinion for fear of further derision

    Samuel Okelly: eg " I think you stated your agenda at the first session"

    Moon Fargis: let me give you something sam

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, you continually raised the same subject for discussion, time after time, only your topic

    Samuel Okelly: thank you moon

    Fefonz Quan: i think the agenda might not be the main issue, we all have an agenda in a way

    Fefonz Quan: but we try to agree hear about the way to discuss it

    Samuel Okelly: "you continually raised the same subject for discussion" proof?

    Wol Euler: oh sam, please.

    Samuel Okelly: what am i to do?

    Moon Fargis: watch the sunset:)

    Moon Fargis: or sundown

    Samuel Okelly: i do not respond to bullying tactics that hound a point ai disagree with

    Moon Fargis: as its west :)

    Samuel Okelly: i flatly refute the suggestion that i have "an agenda"

    Wol Euler: accepted. done. next.

    Moon Fargis: onigoko?

    Fefonz Quan: my agenda hear is to duscuss what is reality

    Fefonz Quan: and deal with it in ways of experiments and then sharing with others rsutls

    Fefonz Quan: and hear others points of view

    Samuel Okelly: furthermore, it should be noted that the targeted bullying approach by some will limit any further contributions i may make

    Pila Mulligan: actually, ethics from a non-theistic viewpoint is a very interesting subject, but it needs an appropriate venue, and here it must share the stage with some other priorities

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I could give you quotes from last night,

    [2009/02/21 12:57] Aurora Kitaj: Sorry there, had to go an help someone to attend
    [2009/02/21 12:57] Samuel Okelly: i see you are both followers of a bui see you are both followers or at least interested in the buddhist tradition?
    [2009/02/21 12:57] Aurora Kitaj: and I'm supposed to be the guardian lol
    [2009/02/21 12:57] Samuel Okelly: :)
    [2009/02/21 12:57] Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    [2009/02/21 12:57] Aurora Kitaj: Hello Scath
    [2009/02/21 12:58] Yichard Muni: well, thanks :-)
    [2009/02/21 12:58] Aurora Kitaj: Yichard, not sure whether you have attended Play as Being before
    [2009/02/21 12:58] Scathach Rhiadra: yes, Samuel, but PaB is not Buddhist
    [2009/02/21 12:58] Samuel Okelly: sure
    [2009/02/21 12:58] Scathach Rhiadra: all traditions or none are welcome here
    [2009/02/21 12:59] Yichard Muni: Yes sam, I am involved into Buddhism. although it is just for me a "best fitting personnal choice", I am open to all other spiritual paths

    Wol Euler nods

    Fefonz Quan: i've just read the whole discussion hear before saying something, and mostly i felt that other feeling but yors Sam were hurt too

    Fefonz Quan: feelings but yours*

    Samuel Okelly: ethics is a topic that interests me a great deal but it is aclear that some people do not wish to discuss it and rather than refrain from any conversation that arises, they seek to target personal insult at me

    Pila Mulligan: so we are arguing insults?

    Fefonz Quan: maybe they felt insulted too

    Pila Mulligan: we are being Balkanized :)

    Samuel Okelly: interestingly scat you do not quote the rest of he conversation that continued in an entirely different direction

    Wol Euler: fill us in, sam.

    Samuel Okelly: yet more ad hom insult

    Wol Euler: what?

    Wol Euler: that was a polite request for more information!

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, pulling it from the chat log requires a little work,

    Wol Euler: "please samuel, do us the kindness to supply the words that Scath left out"

    Moon Fargis: brb^^

    Samuel Okelly: i do not have access to the conversation

    Samuel Okelly: but the website will have the rest of the conversation

    Samuel Okelly: suffice to say that it went in a different direction

    Samuel Okelly: and i made my contributions as and when i felt appropriate

    Scathach Rhiadra: [2009/02/21 12:59] Samuel Okelly: i was just wondering if anybody could enlighten me (no pun intended) as to whether or not the buddhist recognises an objective truth?

    Scathach Rhiadra: a subject you have continually raised.

    Samuel Okelly: continually?

    Samuel Okelly: or once or twice?

    Wol Euler: frequently, then.

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Samuel Okelly: so not "continuall" just frequently?

    Samuel Okelly: how frequently?

    Pila Mulligan: does it matter how often?

    Wol Euler: sam, please.

    Samuel Okelly: i think ity does pila

    Fefonz Quan looking for a lawyer around...

    Pila Mulligan: why?

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Samuel Okelly: as the inferrence here is that i hve some hidden agenda

    Pila Mulligan: or an interest in a topic :)

    Samuel Okelly: beyond a passing interest

    Pila Mulligan: so the present abrasion is the idea of an agenda

    Samuel Okelly: i have acknowledged i have such an interest

    Pila Mulligan: I agree that you do not have an agenda

    Samuel Okelly: openly and honestly

    Pila Mulligan: but I know you fomr previous places

    Samuel Okelly: i make no secret of this

    Samuel Okelly: i have other interests too

    Pila Mulligan: it can be hard to see, Sam, because you have a strong foundation of beliefs :)

    Samuel Okelly: i agree

    Samuel Okelly: but i have respect

    Samuel Okelly: i give it

    Samuel Okelly: and i expect it in return

    Pila Mulligan: thanks

    Pila Mulligan: the water is already warm, then, so wait for it to cool

    Fefonz Quan: and mostly people here are very respectful

    Wol Euler: I agree.

    Samuel Okelly: temp and scat have both been very insulting

    Fefonz Quan: temp?

    Pila Mulligan: Tarmel

    Samuel Okelly: there comments were directed gainst me personaly

    Pila Mulligan: sometimes the peices of the emotional jigsaw puzzle rub the wrong way

    Fefonz Quan: well, she sounded offended herself, hence i guess the responses

    Pila Mulligan: she too was rubbed :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: sorry if you feel that way, I don't feeldisrespect for anyone:)

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Samuel Okelly: and if i said anything that was offensive then i am ready to hear what that was so i do not make the same mistake again

    Pila Mulligan: there is the ad hominem defense as well as the ad hominem attack :)

    Fefonz Quan: she explained something, and you just put it aside by saying "you miss my point"

    Samuel Okelly: i agree pila

    Samuel Okelly: THAT is precisely my point

    Scathach Rhiadra: same as when I asked you for an example

    Fefonz Quan: now i need explnation

    Fefonz Quan: what is your point Sam?

    Pila Mulligan: what Fefonz?

    Samuel Okelly: if i am making a point and a response is given that suggests to me that a misinterpratation (for whatever reason) has been made then should i not say so?

    Pila Mulligan: ahh, what is your Point Sam

    Samuel Okelly: i will tell people if i think they have misunderstood me

    Wol Euler: yes of course you may point out the error, but it would be useful to then go on to offer a further and better explanation.

    Samuel Okelly: in such a situation it is insuilting to be told i am wrong

    Fefonz Quan: no, she didn't say you misinterpret, she claimed about how you discuss those emotional things

    Pila Mulligan: it is not an insult to be disagreed with, however :)

    Pila Mulligan: a fine line perhaps

    Samuel Okelly: how condescending to be told " you just put it aside by saying "you miss my point"

    Samuel Okelly: i do not "just put it aside"

    Fefonz Quan don't know what condencsending means...

    Pila Mulligan: arrogant or feeling superior

    Wol Euler: belittling, making someone seem inferior

    Scathach Rhiadra: and you have never been guilty of it:)

    Samuel Okelly: I view that as a fallacious irrelevancy as an error I have committed in no way justifies the failings of others

    Pila Mulligan: actually, if I understand what Fefonz was saying, the was trying to explain why Tarmel sounded a little touchy

    Wol Euler nods.

    Fefonz Quan: Tarmel Udimo: I have to leave too, but before I do I have to say samuel, that in wanting to talk about an issue like abortion, perhaps you need to be more sensitive to what others may have experienced around that issue [14:12] Tarmel Udimo: and unless you wish to discuss it on a personal level i for one find it invasive being discussed just willy nilly [14:12] Samuel Okelly: with respect tam, you are missing the point i have made [14:12] Tarmel Udimo: I AM NOT SAMUEL

    Fefonz Quan: well i didn't mean to sound errogant, my english i far from being so subtle

    Pila Mulligan: Question, what do oyu suppose she meant by ' find it invasive '

    Samuel Okelly: i explained to tam that i thought she had misunderstood the point i was making and she shouted back at me that she had not... now who is better placed to determine whether or not someone has misunderstood what i meant?

    Fefonz Quan: tarmel may have missed your point samuel, but raised another that sounded important for her

    Pila Mulligan: she was shouting that she was not addressing your point :)

    Pila Mulligan: she was addressing HERS !

    Wol Euler: she shouted because you were ignoring HER point, and that upset her.

    Pila Mulligan: find it invasive

    Pila Mulligan: mutually, it seems :)

    Wol Euler: yep

    Samuel Okelly: ahhhhhh

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: haaaa

    Fefonz Quan: yes Wol thanks

    Samuel Okelly: so it seems we are BOTH talking at cross wires

    Pila Mulligan: warm water cools

    Samuel Okelly: we were both talking

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: not listening

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Pila Mulligan: or not hearing perhpas

    Samuel Okelly: it was my sincere and honest undersatning that she was correcting me about what i meant

    Samuel Okelly: understanding

    Fefonz Quan: and as far as i know tarmel, she tends to be most gentle and kind here

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Wol Euler: I've never seen her shout before, in many months

    Pila Mulligan: she was addressing the effect on her of the topic

    Samuel Okelly: i am pleased to have been able to resolve that misunderstanding

    Fefonz Quan nods

    Pila Mulligan: now let's help Tarmel see that

    Wol Euler smiles

    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel, are you reading this log?

    Wol Euler laughs and waves.

    Pila Mulligan: Sam has somethign to say to you --

    Pila Mulligan: Sam, ...

    Samuel Okelly: and if you are reading this in your abscence TARMEL i apologise :)

    Pila Mulligan: love previals

    Wol Euler: spoken like a gentleman.

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Samuel Okelly: i was writing that before you prompted me pila :) honest! :)

    Pila Mulligan: I believe you

    Fefonz Quan: aye to that Wol

    Scathach Rhiadra: well, I must leave, but one small point, if I may...

    Wol Euler: please

    Fefonz Quan: you may

    Samuel Okelly: if it refers to me scat id rather you didnt

    Scathach Rhiadra: the word 'scat' means animal dung, not something people like to be called, so if you don't mind my name is Scath or Scátjh (more correctly:)

    Samuel Okelly: np

    Fefonz Quan: Bye scathach :)

    Pila Mulligan: bye Scath

    Wol Euler: bye scath, goodnight.

    Samuel Okelly: tc scath :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye all, see you all agin soon, namasté

    Wol Euler: actually, it's midnight and I for one am very tired. Shall we close on this note of peace and reconciliation?

    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_

    Pila Mulligan: sure

    Fefonz Quan: sure

    Wol Euler: goodnight, gentlemen, and thank you for an interesting discussion.

    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol, thank you

    Samuel Okelly: thank you wol

    Wol Euler: take care, everyone. Sleep well, be refreshed and happy tomorrow

    Fefonz Quan: thank you Wol, a pleasure as always

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