2009.02.22 19:00 - Trusting Discussion

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

    Adelene Dawner greets me as I arrive and  buddha Nirvana and Pila Mulligan arrive shortly after

    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    buddha Nirvana: hey adelene:)
    Adelene Dawner: Hi, Buddha. How goes?
    buddha Nirvana: ok, u?
    Adelene Dawner: Eh, not bad.
    Adelene Dawner: Hi, Steve ^.^
    buddha Nirvana: hi stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Buddha
    stevenaia Michinaga: I;m still rezzing
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: pet pet
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'll announce the Oscar winners anyone is interested
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders why there are no movies about much of what we discuss here
    Adelene Dawner shrugs.
    buddha Nirvana: maybe we should make one..
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
    buddha Nirvana: evening pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve, Ade and buddha
    Adelene Dawner: Hi again, Pila ^.^

    Squee: Who has fully realized that history is not contained in thick books but lives in our very blood?

    Pila Mulligan: thanks you Squee

    Squee: ^.^

    Adelene Dawner purrs absently as she contemplates social foo.
    stevenaia Michinaga: social foo?

    Adelene Dawner continues with her thoughts on trust and levels of trust and aspects of relationships.

    Adelene Dawner: Mm. I'm back on the 'trust' thing again, from a different angle... ran into a bit of an incident relating to that, earlier.
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: new category?
    Adelene Dawner  mentions  her perceptive on  personal trust and how she classifies degrees of trust abound people she associates with
    Adelene Dawner: Nope. Bit of a rough spot in how I handle aquaintance-level folks.
    stevenaia Michinaga: was it resolved?
    Adelene Dawner: Not yet.
    Pila Mulligan: the rough spot is the previously mentioned incident i suppose
    Adelene Dawner: More accurately, the incident revealed the rough spot.
    Adelene Dawner: Aquaintance-level is, by definition, people that I don't trust more than my default level, which is pretty low.
    buddha Nirvana: do you have a system of trust adelene?
    buddha Nirvana: for*
    Adelene Dawner: 'System' implies a bit more formality than it has, but yeah, kind of.
    Adelene Dawner: The categories are pre-aquaintance (people I either don't recognize or haven't interacted with), aquaintance, friend, near-pride, and pridemate.
    Pila Mulligan: who won?
    Adelene Dawner: Wasn't that kind of incident, Pila.
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Pila Mulligan: glad it wasn't :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    buddha Nirvana: near-pride and pridemate are interesting terms, would it be appropriate to as you to elaborate?
    buddha Nirvana: ask*

    Rowan Masala arrives

    Pila Mulligan: hello Rowan
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Rowan
    Rowan Masala: hello
    Adelene Dawner: 'pridemate' is what most people call 'family', but my actual blood family are not pridemates, so I prefer not to use that word. It's people that I trust completely.
    Pila Mulligan: hi doug
    buddha Nirvana: ok, ty
    Pila Mulligan: pride as in a family of lions :)

    Doug Sosa  arrives

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doug
    Adelene Dawner nods at Pila.
    Rowan Masala: hi Doug
    buddha Nirvana: ah , yes. i missed that
    doug Sosa: hi
    Adelene Dawner: near-pride are people who I trust to the point where I will seriously consider their advice even when it seems counterintuitive, though that's not the only or most defining trait of the group. Hard to put words to, though.
    buddha Nirvana: Do you have your definitions written down?
    Adelene Dawner: Nope.

    Doug Sosa  leaves

    doug Sosa: graphics difficulties,need to log out (:
    Adelene Dawner: I'm actually still sussing out where I draw the lines - this is handled mostly on a preconscious/instinctive level, so I don't have direct access to it.
    buddha Nirvana: sure, human nature is perhaps quite elusive
    Pila Mulligan: you have a more detailed view of trust than I do Ade, interesting to see the contrast
    Adelene Dawner: Not just that, Pila, but 'like' is a whole other class of thing.
    stevenaia Michinaga: what is yours, Plila
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Adelene Dawner: There are people that I consider friends that I don't actually like, which I *know* is odd.
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure Steve -- I generally trust everyone ...until there is a particularly obvious reason to distrust someone that is
    buddha Nirvana: is it because those people tend to be honest?
    stevenaia Michinaga: agree
    Adelene Dawner shrugs at Pila. "I learned a long time ago that that's not safe to do."
    Pila Mulligan: I understand, I'm still learning :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose much is defined by how you started out in life

    buddha Nirvana explains his odd way of reacting to betrayal

    buddha Nirvana: i have an odd way of acting when someone betrays my trust
    buddha Nirvana: although i hold no grudge afterwards
    stevenaia Michinaga: odd?
    Adelene Dawner: yes, Buddha?
    buddha Nirvana: yes, i play the piano lol
    Rowan Masala: that sounds like a very healthy reaction
    buddha Nirvana: i play the piano, anyway, sometimes. but if im hurt by someone's actions, it helps
    stevenaia Michinaga: what if there is no piano?
    buddha Nirvana: ah, i will always find one, haven't failed to do so yet
    buddha Nirvana: although, that was more of a reaction when younger
    Pila Mulligan: actually yesterday I had a rare experience of mistrust
    Pila Mulligan: I met someone for about the fourth time at a party with a mix of folks
    Pila Mulligan: and saw that this person was obviously and entirely bullshit
    Pila Mulligan: it was not distrust so much as wow, that is too deep
    Adelene Dawner nods.
    stevenaia Michinaga: a politician?
    Pila Mulligan: should be, but not yet
    buddha Nirvana: father xmas?
    Pila Mulligan: just someone absolutely sure of their being right but obviously not quite in focus

    Adelene Dawner adds an new twist on trust, a sideways definition of 'trust', trusting the predictably dishonest person

    Adelene Dawner: That's actually a good example of my sideways definition of 'trust' - it's not about whether the person is honest, it's about whether they're predictable - sounds like he was predictable, so you could trust him, even if what you were trusting him to do was to be dishonest.
    Pila Mulligan: :) true
    Pila Mulligan: reliably b.s.
    Adelene Dawner: Yep.
    buddha Nirvana: consistently creepy
    Adelene Dawner: The incident I'm thinking of was in the other direction, a bit - I didn't trust the person, in a way that I apparently should have, and that got me into a situation I didn't want to be in.
    Pila Mulligan almost gets it :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: perfect words... sideways trust
    Adelene Dawner: I mentioned that my default level of trust is very low - part of that is that I don't trust people to take a 'no' answer well when they want to do something.
    Adelene Dawner: (I've gotten burned by trusting that, specifically.)
    Adelene Dawner: So in this situation where I should have said 'no', I didn't, and it snowballed, and I still didn't, because at that point I was too freaked.
    Adelene Dawner: The situation itself wasn't dangerous/harmful, just something I'm not comfortable with, but, still.
    Pila Mulligan: rl or sl?
    Adelene Dawner: SL.
    Pila Mulligan: less potential physical harm in sl at least
    Adelene Dawner: Yep. I wish my adrenal system would get that memo, tho.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    buddha Nirvana: How do people feel about relationship complexities: a good aspect, or bad
    Adelene Dawner: Depends on the relationship and the complexity in question.
    Pila Mulligan: do you mean is a complex relationship good or bad?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Relationship simplicity is better
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    buddha Nirvana: Yes pila
    buddha Nirvana: Is the complex a good aspect of a relationship?
    Pila Mulligan: it depends on the complexity as Ade said :)
    buddha Nirvana: Complexity in general
    Pila Mulligan: but I also like simplicity, as Steve said
    buddha Nirvana: Does the complexity of love outweigh the complexity of hate
    buddha Nirvana: It's a very general question
    Pila Mulligan: sure
    buddha Nirvana: its*
    stevenaia Michinaga: simplicity of love, you mean?
    Pila Mulligan: that's like the saying it take four muscles to smile and ten muscle to frown
    buddha Nirvana: yes, sometimes also
    buddha Nirvana: :))
    buddha Nirvana: i guess im talking about the point of effort
    stevenaia Michinaga: some things should be effortless, hence simplicity
    Pila Mulligan: complexity is usually an added burden for a relationship
    buddha Nirvana: are relationships worth the effort, due to their complex nature
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    buddha Nirvana: yes, but often are they simple?
    Pila Mulligan: yes also
    stevenaia Michinaga: they can be made complex but usually not need to be
    buddha Nirvana: sure
    Pila Mulligan: ):
    Pila Mulligan: or is it :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: when the underlying theme of a successful relationship is acceptance, simplicity is revealed
    Pila Mulligan: there is a really nice quote from Confucius on this, but I cannot find it to quote it verbatim
    Pila Mulligan: something like this: sometimes people find words easily, sometimes they are dammed up
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes thing go smoothly sometimes they are difficult
    Pila Mulligan: but the relationship of friend is simple and sweet, like the fragrance of a flower
    buddha Nirvana: nice sentiment
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Rowan Masala: I must go. Good to see you all
    Pila Mulligan: bye Rowan
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Ro.
    stevenaia Michinaga: nigt Rowan
    buddha Nirvana: bye :)

    Squee: Everyone has their own magic because nothing is real.

    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Adelene Dawner grins at Squee
    Pila Mulligan: or everything is real
    Adelene Dawner: (You're definitely going to have to put squee in the log tonight, Steve. He's on a roll. ^.^)
    buddha Nirvana: or everything is a rabbt
    buddha Nirvana: rabbit
    Adelene Dawner giggles at Buddha.
    stevenaia Michinaga: does the recorder remove Sqee's comments?
    Adelene Dawner: Nope.
    Adelene Dawner: Er, yep. :P
    Adelene Dawner fails at reading comprehension ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: The auto-recorder only records avs.
    stevenaia Michinaga: ok
    buddha Nirvana: i read how, is her name miran, last night logged the chat
    buddha Nirvana: she gave it a nice narrative, read like an intriguing short story
    Pila Mulligan: yes, some guardians add comments
    buddha Nirvana: is it miran, or myan
    buddha Nirvana: im not entirely sure
    buddha Nirvana: was nice :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Myna
    stevenaia Michinaga: ?
    buddha Nirvana: yes, thats it, ty
    buddha Nirvana: it was an interesting session in itself, she added a nice alternate perceotion of what was being discussed
    buddha Nirvana: perception
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, some guardians have a wonderful ability to add supplementary insights to their logs, there is also a place for comments at the end, but those don;t get used that much
    buddha Nirvana: :)
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Doug, bye Doug. *chuckle*
    buddha Nirvana: a bad joke comes to mind
    stevenaia Michinaga: missed him
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: please, buddha -- the bad joke ...
    buddha Nirvana: ahh lol
    buddha Nirvana: i cant..
    buddha Nirvana: :))
    Pila Mulligan: I'e told bad jokes, you can :)
    buddha Nirvana: ok..
    buddha Nirvana: you all know the punch-line already
    buddha Nirvana: ..
    buddha Nirvana: what do you call a man with a spade on his head?
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    buddha Nirvana: d(o)ug
    Adelene Dawner giggles.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    buddha Nirvana: :x
    Pila Mulligan: what did the termite say when he walked into the bar?
    Pila Mulligan: is the bar tender here?
    buddha Nirvana: :D

    Commenters note: it took me a full day to "get" that one

    A new face arrived but never confirmed that it was ok to record their comments

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Star
    Pila Mulligan: hi Star
    Star _____: hi
    buddha Nirvana: EveningStar
    Star _____: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
    Star _____: nope
    stevenaia Michinaga: we record our sessions, do you mind if your comments are included
    Star _____: y are sessions recorded
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes and posted on our Wiki
    stevenaia Michinaga: we have a discussion group 4 times a day here
    Star _____: oic
    stevenaia Michinaga: you seem to keep sinking into the ground
    buddha Nirvana: yes. you okay over there?
    Star _____: oops
    stevenaia Michinaga: come have a seat
    Pila Mulligan: :)

    buddha Nirvana describes his recent dream

    buddha Nirvana: Last nights dream :
    buddha Nirvana: i had the strangest dream last night
    buddha Nirvana: I was in a pinning vortex
    buddha Nirvana: spinning*
    buddha Nirvana: and was totally helpless
    buddha Nirvana: tried to grab onto something and shout, but the vacuum wouldn't allow me
    Pila Mulligan: what was the substance of the vortex, buddha? air?
    buddha Nirvana: something similar to a fog
    buddha Nirvana: a cyclone may paint an accurate picture#
    Pila Mulligan: ok, thanks
    buddha Nirvana: but it wasn't a cyclone as it was apart of any atmosphere
    buddha Nirvana: from*
    Pila Mulligan: then what happened?
    buddha Nirvana: nothing. just a feeling of dread
    buddha Nirvana: no ground to fall and be killed on, just flying through an infinite space
    buddha Nirvana: forever
    buddha Nirvana: thats how it felt, and i remember thinging "this will never end"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    buddha Nirvana: thinking*
    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting, a dream can be forever
    buddha Nirvana: yes
    buddha Nirvana: maybe thats what this is
    buddha Nirvana: *.*
    buddha Nirvana: without the apparent vortex
    Pila Mulligan: Ade, did you want to say more about your incident?
    Adelene Dawner: Well...
    buddha Nirvana: have we gone wildly off on a tangent i was unconscious to?
    Pila Mulligan: actually your dream made me think of Ade's incident for some reason, buddha
    Adelene Dawner: y'all do have a point with the 'relationships being better when they're simple' thing - no worries, Buddha - but it's not that simple. There are other factors involved.
    buddha Nirvana: unconscious *
    buddha Nirvana: complex ones?
    Adelene Dawner: Functionally, yes.
    Adelene Dawner: Or, the combination of the two factors is complex.
    buddha Nirvana: understood 
    Pila Mulligan: bye Star
    Adelene Dawner: If it was just a relationship thing, being honest would be ideal. If it was just a safety thing, the answer would be obvious there, too. But it's not just either of those.
    buddha Nirvana: *waves*
    buddha Nirvana: what other factors are involved for you?
    Adelene Dawner: Just the safety thing.

    Squee: When your heart speaks, take good notes.

    Adelene Dawner: If it were purely a relationship issue, I'd just tell the person: No, there's a line there.
    Adelene Dawner: But I consider it unsafe to do that.
    buddha Nirvana: leaving yourself exposed?
    buddha Nirvana: i think it can make us vulnerable if someone knows our boundaries
    Adelene Dawner: That's a good way of putting it, yeah.
    buddha Nirvana: not always, but some people will persist to test them
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wan
    buddha Nirvana: i take joy in having found someone's boundary and approach it gently
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Wan, have you been here before?
    buddha Nirvana: it gives that person an unsaid feeling of trust
    Adelene Dawner nods emphatically at Buddha.
    buddha Nirvana: *waves at wan*
    Pila Mulligan: avis seem to be sinking into the rim of the pavilion
    stevenaia Michinaga: strange thing about that
    stevenaia Michinaga: sinking
    buddha Nirvana: is it them or the sim?
    buddha Nirvana: shall i test?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sure
    buddha Nirvana: no quicksand here
    Pila Mulligan: no quick pixels :)
    Pila Mulligan: could buddha's dream vortex have any proximity to Ade's won't-say-no incident?
    Adelene Dawner: ...yes but not in any way I can put into words.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: 'tried to grab onto something and shout, but the vacuum wouldn't allow me'
    buddha Nirvana: its a very disorientating feeling
    Pila Mulligan: 'a feeling of dread'
    buddha Nirvana: cant think of a comparison, perhaps space travel?
    Pila Mulligan: perhaps not having your feet on the ground
    buddha Nirvana: sure. that doesn't make sense to my personal circumstance, though
    buddha Nirvana: I'm fairly well grounded
    Pila Mulligan: but maybe as you approach Ade's boundary gently the image is a gift
    Adelene Dawner: Maybe more like 'not having any good option'?
    buddha Nirvana: AWell, i think i may
    buddha Nirvana: am*
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: maybe somewhere in that image is a friendly common ground
    buddha Nirvana: off the point slightly
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: just being a metaphysical romantic
    buddha Nirvana: If you don't have any boundries. that sometimes gives you an insight into where people "think " your boundy is
    buddha Nirvana: and from that, you get an insight into what their boundries are
    buddha Nirvana: if someone is testing a particular aspect of you. it may say more of what they feel threatened by
    stevenaia Michinaga: true
    buddha Nirvana: but i think that only comes if you do not take the probing personally, and refrain from reacting
    buddha Nirvana: if you do the thing shuts down and a boundry if formed
    buddha Nirvana: is*
    buddha Nirvana: i guess thats why the 'saints' are so insightful into human nature
    buddha Nirvana: they are selfless, and trust is possibly not an issue
    buddha Nirvana: they look down at those who probe from above
    buddha Nirvana: i use to have a term for that
    buddha Nirvana: 'mountain minded'
    buddha Nirvana: am i being too abstract?
    Pila Mulligan: they used to say that about tai chi master chen man ching -- 'you try to hit him but he is just not there!'
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, but I am a bit finished for the evening
    buddha Nirvana: ha :)
    buddha Nirvana: stevenaia, getting pretty early here also
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    buddha Nirvana: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, are we pau? (pau=finished)
    buddha Nirvana: sure, yes
    Adelene Dawner thinks so.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pila Mulligan: thanks for the session friends
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to continue another time
    buddha Nirvana: yes, thanks all
    buddha Nirvana: sleep well, if its that time for you
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Ade
    Adelene Dawner: 'night all 
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