2009.02.23 07:00 - APAPB? YSBS?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan, who took over from Pema.  Pema posted this log, but decided not to add comments, given that he was not present during the discussion.  It was a long session, it turned out, and there were several questions by Fefonz concerning ancient PaB abbreviations such as YSBS and APAPB.  Afterwards, Fefonz and Pema decided to have a dialogue about the meaning of these abbreviations later in the week, on Friday, 2009/02/27, at 7 am SLT.

    Fefonz Quan: Hello Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: For a moment, I thought I was going to crash...
    Fefonz Quan: i'm glad you didn't :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you today?
    Fefonz Quan: very good, thanks, had a nice weekend an starting the new week :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good :)
    Fefonz Quan: how about you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well thank you :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've started to do 9 secs again which is good for me.
    Fefonz Quan: ah, great
    Fefonz Quan: in the office mostly or at home?
    Gaya Ethaniel: At home :)
    Fefonz Quan: i found it harder to time the 15 min at home, though then i just practice it occationaly
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: how do you feel it effects you now? is it different than before?
    Gaya Ethaniel ponders...
    Gaya Ethaniel: It always has similar effect on me
    Fefonz Quan: hi Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya and Fefonz :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Positive and mostly neutral... anchoring effects too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Morning Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Good afternoon Gaya :)
    Fefonz Quan: sounds good (now that i looked up anchoring and found what it is :))
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: How about you Fefonz? In terms of effects.
    Fefonz Quan: i keep wondering about the 9-sec, so i ask you guys - do you concentrate about the "being" ?
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks...
    Adams Rubble flits from thing to thing
    Fefonz Quan: about your question Gaya, in deed it recenter me in a sense
    Gaya Ethaniel: Concentration without concentrating... this sounds funny. Though not anything it particular for me.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, because i find myself mostly watchin appearances around me (and inside me), though don't try to think of it as the whole of "Being" is lookin through me
    Adams Rubble nods
    Gaya Ethaniel reads and ponders...
    Adams Rubble: I am not doing the nine seconds the past few days but I am having some kind of experience that is new
    Fefonz Quan: so sometimes i wonder if i practice pheno or PaB (and many times just mini-vipassana)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes sounds similar Fefonz.
    Adams Rubble wonders if it matters Fefonz..whatevr works
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pausing is the key... otherwise what suits you.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but i do try to look beyond pausing. somehow, maybe wrongly, i find that pausing is the easy part fo rme
    Adams Rubble: I sometimes work harder at it than other times
    Adams Rubble: the APAPB approach is very powerful
    Fefonz Quan: hard work souns strange in that context :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fefonz Quan: APAPB?
    Adams Rubble repeats about flitting from flower to flower like a butterfly
    Adams Rubble: Apreatiate the Prsence of the ppearance of being
    Gaya Ethaniel: We have many variations of 9 secs... let me see if I can find a link for you Fefonz.
    Samuel Okelly:
    Samuel Okelly: ( @ @ )
    Samuel Okelly: ...o00o.(_).o00o...
    Samuel Okelly: (( HELLO EVERY1! ! ! ! ))
    Samuel Okelly:
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i did wondered lately from people responses here that somewhere before i started, in the last summer maybe
    Adams Rubble: I find that I use various approaches and exercises depending what may be happening to me at any particular time
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_log_ex...ation_by_Being
    Adams Rubble: Hell gen and Sam
    Gaya Ethaniel: That is about APAPB
    Fefonz Quan: there where more elaborations of teh PaB experiment
    Adams Rubble: Hello, that is
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Sam :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello gen and Samuel :)
    Adams Rubble: Yes, there have been many elaborations
    Adams Rubble: Sometimes we are fortunate to have someone guide us to a particular exercise when they realize we are on the edge of something
    Adams Rubble: or may be
    Adams Rubble: When we encounter something that is unfamiliar as I am now
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks gen looks lovely with her new look :)
    Adams Rubble agrees
    Fefonz Quan: so i thought maybe we should renew some of this elaborations, so new comers can enjoy/experiment them too
    Gaya Ethaniel: A good idea Fefonz.
    Gaya Ethaniel: YSBS and ESBS were the first two, I think.
    Fefonz Quan: hi Gen, nice hair :)
    genesis Zhangsun: hehe thanks :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: [You Seeing Being Seeing & Enlightened you Seeing Being Seeing]
    Fefonz Quan: the initials are a little... thanks Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know :) PaB alphabet soups.
    Fefonz Quan: we should put on the wiki site a PaB dictionary
    Fefonz Quan: the Jargon page
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_log_ex...xcerpts_(long)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Under this page, you have extracts for both.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I suggest you read 1. Enlightened you seeing versus Being seeing ; 2. You seeing Being seeing ; 3. You seeing Being seeing II
    Gaya Ethaniel: It'd be difficult to explain these variations in short phrases as in dictionary
    Fefonz Quan: starting with enlightened... hmmm... where did i hear about that approach ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Adams Rubble: Actually we started with the You first
    genesis Zhangsun: what is the third variation?
    Gaya Ethaniel: APAPB
    genesis Zhangsun: what is part II?
    genesis Zhangsun: ah okay
    Fefonz Quan: so maybe a paragraph, i would gladly go over those links later (i see them now and there is a lot to read)
    Adams Rubble: Yes, there is much to read :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: There were two extracts for YSBS as in two separate sessions
    Fefonz Quan: but i would think a short paragraph might be handy
    genesis Zhangsun: I didn't realize that APAPB was connected to Being Seeing
    genesis Zhangsun: to me it always seemed separatwe
    Fefonz Quan: if you just want to try a new practice
    genesis Zhangsun: oops separate
    genesis Zhangsun: I mean its all connected but not the same
    Gaya Ethaniel: APAPB is another variation from my point of view...
    Fefonz Quan: aaparatwe - getting us seperated
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not of YSBS as such
    Adams Rubble: Yes, different kind of exercise but another one nevertheless
    genesis Zhangsun: really it seems more like just a very stripped down, no one seeing anything just phenomena
    genesis Zhangsun: well I suppose there has to be someone to appreciate it so perhaps thats where the you comes in
    Fefonz Quan thought that's what we are doing all along
    genesis Zhangsun: and perhaps the you is Being anyway so perhaps yes you could say it is Being seeing too?
    genesis Zhangsun: just different ways to describe it I guess but I have always seen Being as full and appearance as empty, two sides of the same coin
    Adams Rubble was following Gen until the last point
    Fefonz Quan: but when you practice it, what the difference? how do you feel Being?
    genesis Zhangsun: okay what part Adams
    Adams Rubble: appearance as empty...could you elaborate?
    Adams Rubble: Hello Bill
    genesis Zhangsun: well if it is just phenomena and there is "nothing" to back it up it is just the appearance of things, form and color arising, coming and going
    Solobill Laville: Hey, all! :)
    genesis Zhangsun: this is what I mean by empty
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Solo :)
    Samuel Okelly: hi sol :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Solo
    Adams Rubble: Hmmm
    Fefonz Quan: Yo Solo
    Adams Rubble: I see what you mean but I wonder if that is what i am seeing
    Adams Rubble: or appreciating
    Fefonz Quan: and then how you put the Being in Gen?
    genesis Zhangsun: I see APAPB as a sort of remedial measure
    genesis Zhangsun: it is the thing that gets me to see the empty aspect of all situations which are usually so filled with my own assumptions and preoccupation
    genesis Zhangsun: when I strip it down I can appreciate it for what it IS
    genesis Zhangsun: Being is what emerges after taking this remedial measure
    Adams Rubble nods
    genesis Zhangsun: well Being is everything really
    Fefonz Quan: if it is stripped down, where is the being notion?
    genesis Zhangsun: but it is unseen usually at least for me
    Solobill Laville: (Hello, Liv) :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Liv
    Samuel Okelly: hi liv :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Liv.
    Fefonz Quan: does it include things outside of you?
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Liv
    Adams Rubble often slips into APAPB when watching thoughts
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Adams me too
    genesis Zhangsun: no Fefonz it is not outside of you and yes it includes things outside of you :)
    Adams Rubble: I understand what you are saying but it seems to often lead me elsewhere...maybe I have a way to go yet
    Solobill Laville: Can you describe that "elsewhere" Adams?
    Adams Rubble: But I have had it strip down thoughts too
    Fefonz Quan: for me it takes imagination to comprehend that
    Adams Rubble: :) Bill
    Solobill Laville: ok :)
    Adams Rubble thinks
    Liv Lannock: its the first time im playing this,how can change my clothes?
    genesis Zhangsun: I think this all takes some imagination :)
    Solobill Laville: OK, Liv, I'll go to IM with you, OK?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Liv Lannock: WHATS IM?
    Fefonz Quan: not for me many times, just looking at appearances, for me need stripping concepts and imagined concepts as well
    Adams Rubble: I think my imagination often puts things together rather than simply stripping things down. Maybe this is a more painful way to do ti :)
    genesis Zhangsun: well everyone has different obstacles Fefonz I don't imagine my way is the "only" way to use APAPB
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Liv, is this better?
    Adams Rubble: It may just be another route to the same thing just more circuitous
    Adams Rubble: that is my route :)
    genesis Zhangsun: ty Solo :)
    genesis Zhangsun: what do you mean by circuitous?
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Adams Rubble is known for creating more selves to get to the essence. I wouldn;t recommend that approach :)
    Fefonz Quan feels like getting lost here, maybe reading APAPB on the wiki will clear some things for me.
    Adams Rubble: sorry Fefonz
    Adams Rubble: The thing is you seem to be on the right track
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Fefonz, reading that first would be helpful.
    Gaya Ethaniel agrees.
    Adams Rubble: Just that some of us do things slightly differently sometimes
    Adams Rubble: or often
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: that's great, as long as we have common language to talk about it :)
    Adams Rubble: yes, we work hard at the language thing
    Adams Rubble: sometimes talk cross-wise until we realize we are talking about the same thing
    Solobill Laville: Fef, that approach (APAPB) is also one that was offered by Pema, perhaps a discussion with him directly would help as well :)
    Adams Rubble: While you are newer to PaB it may be I am more of a novice to the approach in general and know much less than you
    Fefonz Quan: yes... in the beginning of the session i suggested we put a short description of each version of PaB on the Wiki
    Fefonz Quan: thus make it easy to understand the terms, and moreover, practice them
    Adams Rubble: You also can do a search on the terms
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pema's description of each terms are extracted by PaB members on those pages Fefonz. If you'd like you can volunteer to shorten them down further :)
    Fefonz Quan: (a little like the exploration page on the pheno)
    Fefonz Quan: i jsut might do that Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Adams Rubble: Volunters are always welcome :)
    genesis Zhangsun: look at exerpts I think they did a good job but you could of course work on something shorter like a glossary
    Liv Lannock: OK ...
    genesis Zhangsun: I think there is a glossary section
    genesis Zhangsun: I think Phenomenology is a lot like APAPB
    Adams Rubble: There are so many ways to package the information :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I think I have heard Pema say that it is in fact
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I remember it too gen.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Adams Rubble: I can see it might be a particular hard time for newcomers since there is so much going on these days :)
    Samuel Okelly: it is not an east concept for everyone
    Samuel Okelly: easy
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not just for newcomers :)
    Adams Rubble: When I started we could atend almost everything :)
    Solobill Laville is back and now caught up...
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Solo :)
    Fefonz Quan didn't find glossary sectiion
    Adams Rubble: I wish I had time for the pheno
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Fefonz how do you understand APAPB in relation to Pheno?
    genesis Zhangsun: using what you know so fatr
    Fefonz Quan: without the B, it looks just like pheno, + some appereciation (which i like :))
    Fefonz Quan: putting the being there makes me wonder
    Fefonz Quan: ("and it makes me wonder.... pum pum pum pum.."
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
    Adams Rubble: ...sort of a reminder of the end
    Fefonz Quan: it's like putting what we search for in the middle of the search, very problematic ligically
    Adams Rubble: I don;t see it that way
    Adams Rubble: I see it that everything derives from being...all appaearance...all presence
    genesis Zhangsun: yes everything is Being in my view
    Samuel Okelly: i see “being” as the totality of all that we are. Making preferential value judgments of character and behaviour, for example in “stripping” or “dropping” certain parts of us, is, in itself, no less a significant part of who we are
    Fefonz Quan: if derives means anything, then you're making an assumption adams, if not, derive is empty in a sense, it's a definition Being==everything
    Adams Rubble is not all that logical. hehe
    Adams Rubble: Sam, we don;t make value judgments. It doesn;t work that way. We learn to see what we are not
    Fefonz Quan: my previous line apply also to Gen definition
    Adams Rubble: what is illusion and what is real about us
    Samuel Okelly: adams, who decides what to "drop"? (a term i have picked up here)
    Adams Rubble: so when we talk about "stripping away" we are talking about dropping the illusion to what is our essence
    Adams Rubble: Sam. When you look hard enough, you'll know it
    Fefonz Quan: everything can be being, it's almost a tautology, still teh asuumption that being can look through me, that it has it's own concsiousness is less basic
    Adams Rubble: It is a matter of looking
    Samuel Okelly: k..
    Gaya Ethaniel leaves quietly and wishes everyone good day.
    Adams Rubble: bye Gaya :)
    Samuel Okelly: i was going to ask who decides what is allusion or real beyond teh subjective
    Samuel Okelly: tc gaya
    Adams Rubble: what is tautology?
    Adams Rubble: Sam, you must look for yourself
    Fefonz Quan: when you say a sentence that is real by definition
    Samuel Okelly: k
    Adams Rubble: No one will tell you
    Fefonz Quan: (thus in a way, that definition doesn't give any new knowledge)
    Adams Rubble: ah
    genesis Zhangsun: I think Sam you are getting at a central question though which is "Who is doing?"
    genesis Zhangsun: yeah Fefonz it isn't about new knowledge :)
    genesis Zhangsun: thats the whole thing about it :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yeah, i knew you'll catch me on that one ;-)
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Fefonz Quan: still in the frame of the conversation it has some meaning
    Adams Rubble: We have never defined Being in this group
    genesis Zhangsun: reminder: you are trying to define the undefinable
    Adams Rubble: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: how can you define something which is everything
    Fefonz Quan: not trying at all
    genesis Zhangsun: good starting point :)
    Fefonz Quan: you did, and gave it some characteristics as well
    Fefonz Quan: and i opposed that :)
    genesis Zhangsun: okay so you take issue with calling Being everything
    Adams Rubble missed that
    genesis Zhangsun: I think that was my definition
    Fefonz Quan: not at all Gen
    Samuel Okelly: i do not believe that the totality of who and what we are is beyond defination or comprehension
    Fefonz Quan: i take issue with the assumption that that "being" can subjectively look through me
    Fefonz Quan: or that i can experience directly parts of it far away from me
    Adams Rubble thinks we are going off point a bit
    genesis Zhangsun: what does "subjectively mean?"
    genesis Zhangsun: here in this context Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: (for me we are right on the point adams)
    Adams Rubble: We started with defining the exercises and we are trying to define Being
    Fefonz Quan: yes, the exercise said "as presented be Being", and we try to understand the exercicse my understanding the terms it is build of
    Adams Rubble: they hint at Being
    Fefonz Quan: (well, maybe I, not we)
    Samuel Okelly: it seems to me that rather than "trying to define Being" an understanding should be gained as to "if it is possible to define being" before making any attempt to actualy define
    Adams Rubble: yes Samuel, not important at all in my opinion
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry guys but I got to run
    Adams Rubble: bye Gen
    Fefonz Quan: infact definition strictly is not the issue here
    Fefonz Quan: By Gen, thanks for the talk
    Samuel Okelly: tc gen
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks bye everyone
    Fefonz Quan: the issue is not definition, the issue is that we practice something, experimenting in order to find results
    Adams Rubble: go on Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: yet, if we put too many assumptions into the experiment, it might effect the results, bias them.
    Adams Rubble: yes, I agree
    Samuel Okelly: i too need to leave now.. thanks for the chat :)
    Fefonz Quan: if i say, there is an alien in my mind, showing me those appearances
    Fefonz Quan: By Sam, thank you
    Fefonz Quan: Bye
    Adams Rubble: bye Sam
    Samuel Okelly: /byte
    Samuel Okelly:
    Samuel Okelly: †
    Samuel Okelly: † (( take care everyone )) †
    Samuel Okelly: †
    Samuel Okelly:
    Adams Rubble: yes, that would be a possible conclusion
    Fefonz Quan: and then try to imagine it 20 times during the day, finally i might feel it is true
    Adams Rubble: yes, you could
    Fefonz Quan: so in order to bypass self-delusions, self-imagined results
    Fefonz Quan: i can drop concepts, not add them
    Adams Rubble: I don;t think any of us would disagree
    Fefonz Quan: but when i try to look at things, then saying: look at them as whole Being is looking through you/ making them/ other,
    Fefonz Quan: so we imagine somehing, creating a mental concept/image
    Fefonz Quan: and thus, we are in danger of believe in that illusion rather than getting into it as results of experiments
    Adams Rubble: I see your point. I wonder if it would be more fruitful to discuss this with Pema than lilttle ol' me L)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Solobill Laville thinks Adams is doing great :)
    Adams Rubble: thanks Bill :)
    Fefonz Quan: well, since this is supposed to be Pema's GoC sessin, and i replaces him, he will be the one posting it ! :-)
    Fefonz Quan: so reading guaranteed :)
    Adams Rubble: Great!
    Adams Rubble waves to Pema
    Adams Rubble: Listening to you talk, you have some deeper experiences than I have had and I think you just need to trust them
    Fefonz Quan: it is very similar to the saying "God s everything"
    Fefonz Quan: is*
    Adams Rubble: I really am very new to this
    Adams Rubble: It is easier for me to think of God than Being
    Solobill Laville: deeper = different only, in a sense, Adams :)
    Fefonz Quan: our friend Solo here is not so new...
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Solobill Laville: Well, this is all so very good Fef
    Fefonz Quan: for me it is harder to think of god, from many reasons
    Solobill Laville: Very careful what to say, what not to...
    Fefonz Quan: but the issue i brought that sentence up is that it also can mean very different things.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Fefonz Quan: it can say: "G is E" (shortening it), thus there is no God
    Adams Rubble: The reason it is is easier is that I can draw on many centuries of people who looked at the things we are looking at and find metaphors that can speak to me
    Fefonz Quan: then it can say: "G is E", thus the universe has a will/reason/purpose/you name it
    Adams Rubble: and know other people can find the same thing in other traditions
    Adams Rubble: yes, one COULD say that Fefonz...could come to that conclusion
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i'm trying not to go to thee thread of waht's easy
    Fefonz Quan: so just by saying "G is E" we didn't say nothing
    Fefonz Quan: the meaning we give to it is what matters, the sentence is meaningless
    Adams Rubble: yes. I agree
    Adams Rubble: It si the best we have
    Fefonz Quan: now if i would believe the first meaning, i through
    Fefonz Quan: if i believe the second, i can see his purpose any minute (or maybe others can ;-)
    Adams Rubble: or we can believe there are metaphors that speak to us
    Fefonz Quan: so when i try to explore reality, i should take any of them as axiom
    Adams Rubble: I don;t think there is need to make them axiomatic
    Fefonz Quan: (Solo, dont be so careful, it will be great to hear what you think)
    Solobill Laville: Well, it would seem that it is important to you
    Solobill Laville: to answer these questions
    Solobill Laville: So, you can try
    Fefonz Quan: it is important, because my practice can be considerably influenced by them
    Adams Rubble: yes, they can but don;t have to be in my opinion
    Fefonz Quan: it is very practicle to me: like, when i go to the lab, should i hit the gas or cool it?
    Adams Rubble: yes!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i can try what Solo?
    Adams Rubble: Fortunately no one has blown up by meditating
    Adams Rubble: at least I don;t think so :)
    Solobill Laville: Try to logic this out
    Solobill Laville: All these things; God, everything, etc. don't really, fundamentally "get you there" so to speak...
    Solobill Laville: They're just thoughts, conceptions, even Being is Everything
    Solobill Laville: Isn't "Being"
    Fefonz Quan: yes Solo, and Adams, many have blown other people because of wrong practiced believes...
    Adams Rubble: well that's a different story
    Fefonz Quan: not at all
    Solobill Laville: "belief" itself can be quite an issue
    Adams Rubble: That's intolerance
    Fefonz Quan: i agree with you, Solo about concepts
    Solobill Laville: Because, you have to believe in something...and what is that something?
    Fefonz Quan: i don't have to believe in seomthing
    Fefonz Quan: i can have trust in practice, which is another thing
    Adams Rubble: That's fine with me, Fefonz :)
    Adams Rubble: I don't know anyone is disagreeing with that
    Solobill Laville: Even better, imho, is just practice, maybe a little faith in that you're not wasting your time.. :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fefonz Quan: exactly
    Fefonz Quan: but just practice - the version of the practice can be meaningful, isn't it?
    Solobill Laville: What do you mean by version?
    Fefonz Quan: PaB, APAPB, pheno, shamata, vipassana, kong-fu...
    Solobill Laville: ah, hehe
    Solobill Laville: They all point to the same thing, ultimately, but there I think is where either your own
    Solobill Laville: sense of "what you need' plays in, or the help of a really good teacher who can see your need
    Adams Rubble: yes, the latter can be most helpful too
    Solobill Laville: "skillful means" of a teacher to student
    Fefonz Quan: somethingdoes come in mind to me now
    Solobill Laville: though in the West we get all caught up in role hierarchy it would seem :)
    Solobill Laville: yes?
    Fefonz Quan: i agree with you both, that all those words can be more obstacles then useful
    Fefonz Quan: maybe, on some way, all those versions are aiming to "shake the boat" in a way
    Fefonz Quan: using, if necessary, imagination, dropping of concepts, peaceful of mind, etc.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Solobill Laville: hi buddha :)
    Adams Rubble: hello buddha :)
    Fefonz Quan: when most what they try, is more get us away from where we are (captured?), then to lead us directly to a certain point
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Biuddha
    buddha Nirvana: Hello admas, hi all :)
    Adams Rubble: there is another part to this
    Adams Rubble: we come together and share what we are experiencing
    Fefonz Quan: yes, adams
    Solobill Laville: yes, those thoughts, conceptions, and "boats" can be quite useful, even necessary, but
    Solobill Laville: the danger is in thinking, or believing, that are the "thing" itself
    Solobill Laville: Really, no boats...just, just, just - that's it (but i am biased)
    Fefonz Quan: well, aren't the path and the goal the same?
    Fefonz Quan shows he can quote new age cliches too :)
    Solobill Laville: Well, Ok, from a persective, but also no path, no goal
    Adams Rubble spent the whole summer sailing around in circles :)
    Fefonz Quan: and i am pro-new age in a way, dont get me wrong
    Solobill Laville: hmm..didn't know I knew new age cliches! :)
    Adams Rubble: new age?
    Fefonz Quan: well, they borrowed some good old stuff,
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Solobill Laville: Circles can spiral upward, can't they Adams?
    Fefonz Quan: to mix it with other less valid notions :)
    Adams Rubble: Not sure Bill but I got off the boat :)
    Fefonz Quan: well that is impressive
    Solobill Laville: oh? What boat were you on?
    Adams Rubble: hehe. I never found out
    Adams Rubble: but it was a good crew and theiy're off sailing with somebody else I think
    Solobill Laville: Hopefully not the Titanic! ;)
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Solobill Laville: Or maybe...
    Adams Rubble: hopefully not
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Adams Rubble: but I am wandering around in different layers these days
    Fefonz Quan: how are you biased Solo?
    Adams Rubble: brb
    Solobill Laville: k
    Solobill Laville: I'm a Zennie, minimalist, "just the basics, Ma'am" :)
    Fefonz Quan: well, i am mostly vipassana guy, quite similar i would say
    Adams Rubble: back
    Fefonz Quan: wb
    Solobill Laville: Give me Manjusri's sword and a cup of green tea, and I'm good ;)
    Fefonz Quan: ah, those guys with attachments to swords :0
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Solobill Laville: agreed, buddha is as well, I believe (vipassana that is)
    Fefonz Quan: i guess manjushri's sword is a metaphor, can you detail?
    buddha Nirvana: Same as me Quan :)
    Fefonz Quan likes green tea too
    Adams Rubble: Isn't Manjusri the Boddhisattva of wisdom?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, cutting away all attachments, dillusions, to just leave "what is left"
    Fefonz Quan: well, i thought it would be something like that
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Adams, the perfections of wisdom - prajnaparamita
    Fefonz Quan: great metaphors they have, those mahayana guys (vajra?)
    Fefonz Quan: this is where the heart sutra is comnig from, isn't it?
    Solobill Laville: yes, both Vajra and non-Vajra...most of those Boddhisattvas cut across schools
    Solobill Laville: Avalokitesvara is in the Heart (compassion)
    Fefonz Quan: right, i know, i talked abut the prajnaparamita
    Fefonz Quan: thanks Solo, i read it once a week aloud in a group here
    Solobill Laville: Ah, yes, in those sutras a lot of Manjusri as well - Diamon Cutter especially
    Solobill Laville: ah, k :)
    Adams Rubble: TY Bill
    buddha Nirvana: Ty solobill
    Solobill Laville: yw, short and sweet that one!
    Solobill Laville: (the Soto Zen version especially)
    Fefonz Quan: thanks Solo again.
    Adams Rubble knows a bit more about Mahayana Buddhism because of Chinese art
    Fefonz Quan: think i should leave now, it has been long
    Adams Rubble: Yes it has been very long but worth staying for :)
    Fefonz Quan: i will though claim the log, to give it to pema
    Fefonz Quan: unless you want to stay here and continue
    Solobill Laville: ok, bye Fef, I think you are in a great spot right now! :)
    Adams Rubble: In any case, you can claim the log anytime
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Solobill Laville: Yes, I need to go
    Adams Rubble: yes me too. Good talking with you both :)
    Fefonz Quan: Good nigth/day all :)
    Adams Rubble picks up her Bible and bottle of Pepsi
    Solobill Laville: You too, bye Fef, Adams, Buddha
    buddha Nirvana: Bye :))
    Solobill Laville: SHe can do anything with those!!
    Adams Rubble: bye :)
    Solobill Laville: lol
    Fefonz Quan: bye all :)
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