2009.02.28 01:00 - SL or "life's a mystery and its paths are long and twisty"

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

    This was to be a long session, interrupted by a griefing incident which affected many sims, and set the topic for the remainder of the session.


    When I arrived Fael, Tarmel and Susi were already at the pagoda, and we were soon joined by Adelene and Wol.  The session began with welcomes and a general discussion on clothes, shopping and appearances.......

    Fael Illyar: Hi Tarmel :)
    Susi Alcott: hi Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fael and Susi
    Susi Alcott: hi Fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Susi :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Scath, Ade :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Scath
    Adelene Dawner: Eep!
    Susi Alcott: hi Ade and Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael, Susi, Ade
    Adelene Dawner: Yuo've gotta rez faster, Fa!
    Tarmel Udimo: hi ade :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello tarmel
    Fael Illyar: me? how come?
    Adelene Dawner: So I don't accidentally sit on you!
    Adelene Dawner giggles.
    Wol Euler: morning all
    Fael Illyar: Haha, Hi Wol :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
    Susi Alcott: hi Wol
    Tarmel Udimo: hey Wol, been shopping?
    Wol Euler giggles. Look who's talking.
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Wol Euler: PixelDolls is haing a great sale, everything for $10 or $50
    Fael Illyar: Ah, no wonder you're having something new :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes....

    Wol Euler watches Susi sneaking up on Ade
    Adelene Dawner: ...I see you, there, Susi. Don't even think aobut it. ^.-
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Adelene Dawner steals Susi's seat. ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: oh oh musical chairs
    Wol Euler: actually Ade looks quite pretty too, I hadn't noticed in the darkness before.
    Wol Euler: is that PD?
    Adelene Dawner: Tarmel gave it to me. ^.^
    Wol Euler: aaaah
    Tarmel Udimo: Wol helped me pick it:-)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: it is nice to have something new to wear
    Adelene Dawner nods ^.^
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Tarmel Udimo: and fael is looking newish too
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go shopping soon, I haven't changed clothes for ages:)
    Wol Euler: I'll give you a LM, but hte sale stops tonight
    Tarmel Udimo: oh I think i just gave Scath too
    Wol Euler: ah, ok
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty, I'll get there later today
    Fael Illyar: me? I've been looking like this for a couple of days already :)
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... but I think I'll change to something that fits the theme better :)
    Tarmel Udimo: haven't see you much maybe in the last couple of days:-)
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Tarmel Udimo: and susi?
    Susi Alcott: sorry I dont understand now what I'm asked about
    Fael Illyar: I guess Tarmel's asking if you'll change clothes too :)
    Susi Alcott: each day; wash them before I go to sleep
    Tarmel Udimo: hahahaha
    Wol Euler: commendable.
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Susi Alcott: hairstyle is also quite difficult to change :)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles ^.^
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Wol Euler: that is true, there's very little good hair for men in SL
    Susi Alcott: maybe I'm not so attractive for that :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, a lot of men seem to end up looking like clones
    Scathach Rhiadra: in SL
    Adelene Dawner rolls her eyes at Susi and chuckles.
    Wol Euler: don'T believe it, Susi.
    Fael Illyar: There's some choices for men but ... well, takes a lot of effort to find a good one :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Susi Alcott: storkes Ade's head and ears in his mind :)
    Tarmel Udimo: opps meant it for susi:-)
    Fael Illyar: don't drop it on my wings then :)
    Tarmel Udimo: but looks good on you too fael espacially with flower
    Wol Euler smiles at Fael's "winged schoolgirl" look
    Susi Alcott: oh thank you Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh the wings
    Susi Alcott: (thinking decorations)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty Tarmel:)
    Susi Alcott: brb
    Susi Alcott: oh

    Fael Illyar: Ah, Susi went to change clothes.
    Wol Euler is curious.
    Tarmel Udimo: oh gosh what a treat
    Fael Illyar never quite understood going away for that.
    Tarmel Udimo: haven't ever seen anything else:-)
    Tarmel Udimo: shyness
    Wol Euler nods
    Tarmel Udimo: does anyone know how to get music streaming in obe's place/
    Wol Euler: ooooooh.
    Tarmel Udimo: Oh wow you'll need to stand up again susi:-)
    Wol Euler: plase do
    Susi Alcott: for honourable ladies :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: wb Susi, very nice change:)
    Tarmel Udimo: very nice must wear more often:-)
    Wol Euler: I agree.
    Susi Alcott: ok
    Susi Alcott: I save your words into my heart
    Tarmel Udimo: love the colour and the material
    Susi Alcott: then the accedent for this to come to me was no accedednt even I thought so :)
    Wol Euler: of course.
    Tarmel Udimo: was it a gift?
    Susi Alcott: 'wrong' click
    Fael Illyar: Yes, very nice one :)
    Wol Euler: huh.
    Wol Euler: your fingers knew, though.
    Susi Alcott: ty
    Susi Alcott: our body is more than often wiser that our mind
    Wol Euler: oh yes.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Susi Alcott: but...well...m'ladies
    Susi Alcott: may I take a sit among you ?
    Susi Alcott: love mom Earth, bus she's a little hard to me now :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes please do susi
    Susi Alcott: ty
    Tarmel Udimo: brb

    Fael first notices the large purple cubes on the hills in the distance, while I hear what sounds like gunfire.......

    Fael Illyar: not every day you see purple boxes rolling around the hills in the distance.
    Fael Illyar: oh, I forgot giant boxes
    Scathach Rhiadra: so has anyone any PaB experiences they would like to talk about?
    Scathach Rhiadra: is that gunfire I hear?

    Wol picks up on the fact that objects without owner of creator information mean 'griefing' ......... 

    Wol Euler: fascinating. it has neihter name, owner nor creator.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ?
    Wol Euler: the purple cube
    Fael Illyar: oh :)
    Wol Euler: sorry, geeking :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, can't see it
    Fael Illyar: might be lindens playing ball? :)
    Fael Illyar: oh, 2 cubes now
    Fael Illyar: ... 3
    Susi Alcott: dont believe
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, see it now:)
    Wol Euler: more likely somebody griefing
    Susi Alcott: agree
    Wol Euler: probably the person stading on the sim boundary south of us
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes,
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks susi
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: ok, several at once now.
    Scathach Rhiadra: you don't think these are replicating cubes
    Fael Illyar: he place is getting littered.
    Fael Illyar: no scripts in them
    Wol Euler: can you get any info at all about htem?
    Wol Euler: I'm filing an abuse report as we speak
    Scathach Rhiadra: definitely greifing
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... I should better do it, I've got concierge level account.
    Wol Euler: oh, please do.
    Wol Euler: zoom SE and include a screenshot of the bunch of thenm
    Fael Illyar: under which category do you think this should go?
    Wol Euler: land/encroachment/obects
    Scathach Rhiadra: are they trying to enclose us?
    Fael Illyar: ah, object littering
    Tarmel Udimo: wow there's a few of them...
    Scathach Rhiadra: should we all file ARs, do Lindens take more notice of a lot of reports
    Susi Alcott: did you try the online support ?
    Tarmel Udimo: how do you do that?
    Fael Illyar: oh, it refuses to work without naming someone as the abuser.
    Fael Illyar: I'll try live chat
    Wol Euler: xxxxxx xxxxxxx
    Susi Alcott: I am so sorry I'm not capable to advise but that is possible via support page on concierne account
    Tarmel Udimo: it does look like they are enclosing us
    Wol Euler: I caught one just as it landed, it still had its owner info
    Tarmel Udimo: and?
    Scathach Rhiadra: where do you rekon the owner is?
    Wol Euler: north of us now
    Wol Euler: bastard
    Fael Illyar: ah, ok, I'll send abuse report then
    Scathach Rhiadra: should we pay him a visit?
    Tarmel Udimo: can you see him wol?
    Wol Euler: only on the minimap
    Wol Euler: keeps moving around
    Fael Illyar: abuse report sent
    Wol Euler: oh wow, xxxxxx is offline right now.
    Tarmel Udimo: I can see the cubes on the mini map but not a person
    Adelene Dawner: The cubes are probably coming from a rezzer script - may not have been activated by the owner, or may have been on a timer - who knows.
    Tarmel Udimo: has that happened before? i mean a mass attack
    Wol Euler: in SL yes, here no.
    Adelene Dawner: Not here/
    Scathach Rhiadra: its not a mass attack if it is only one griefer:)
    Susi Alcott: happenes a lot around in SL
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Tarmel Udimo: leaving us Scath?
    Adelene Dawner wants to go check it out ^.^
    Scathach Rhiadra: no, I thought there was someone on the mini-map, was goint to see who
    Tarmel Udimo: is that the green blob?
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry fael didn't mean to step on you:-)
    Fael Illyar: oh, that's ok :)
    Tarmel Udimo: any luck?
    Fael Illyar: no report from a linden yet.
    Fael Illyar: no contact that is

    Adelene tells us that it is not just our sim under attack, but several including a Welcome area, and Susi notes that the architecture of the pagoda is preventing the objects from landing on us......

    Adelene Dawner: We're on the outskirts of it - several sims' range. Wow.
    Fael Illyar: I'm trying live chat now
    Susi Alcott: ty Ade
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty Ade
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: is it not just this sim under attack then?
    Adelene Dawner: Not at all.
    Adelene Dawner: And it gets laggy close to the source.
    Susi Alcott: that is interesting matter to me that those cubes had not went through the pavillon
    Fael Illyar: Seems live chat is only for technical support and land issues
    Adelene Dawner: Not surprising to me, Susi - they're set physical.
    Susi Alcott: ty Adelene for telling
    Tarmel Udimo: that's who I saw up there:xxxxxx xxxxx
    Adelene Dawner: (means that they act like a real object, fall when they don't have something under them, like that - unlike regular prims that don't move at all under normal circumstances)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Tarmel Udimo: does it mean we could end up having too many prims?
    Adelene Dawner: Yes.
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Susi Alcott: ah
    Scathach Rhiadra: yep!
    Fael Illyar: yes, although there's still almost 10000 left
    Susi Alcott: meaning also then that the griefer cannot rezz more
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh that's what's happening and then it wipes out the pagoda/
    Susi Alcott: so there's much still to come in case
    Susi Alcott: they are only one prim; therefore they shouldn't be able to wipe out anything
    Susi Alcott: sim simply refuses to rezz more when primes are full
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think LL will take so long that we'll aquire 10,000 of these. And if so, I think any new ones will be blocked from coming in before the pavilion gets derezzed.
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Scathach Rhiadra: mind you tha mini-map is filling up pretty quickly:)
    Adelene Dawner: (They're not being rezzed here, tho, Susi - they're being rezzed somewher else and thrown at us!)
    Tarmel Udimo: there was a rather demonic looking woman flying about out there
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hells' barbie- xxxxxx xxxx

    Fael Illyar: strange ... this parcel is set to only allow group owned objects entry
    Scathach Rhiadra: that could be anyone, this is SL after all:)
    Fael Illyar: I wonder how thse get in
    Susi Alcott: does anybody know hot to freeze ?
    Susi Alcott: clicking on Av; 'more' 'freeze'
    Scathach Rhiadra: aklso, I thought guardians could eject here?
    Susi Alcott: but I'm too slow to do that
    Fael Illyar: only works if the griefer comes in here
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, only avs, not objects
    Susi Alcott: av can be freezed if one can catch
    Susi Alcott: I'm too slow to do that
    Scathach Rhiadra: seems to have stopped
    Fael Illyar: oh, there's one from a mentor group close to here
    Tarmel Udimo: no still coming in

    Adelene gives us copies of snapshots she has taken of the attack.......

    Susi Alcott: ty Adelene
    Tarmel Udimo: ty adelene
    Adelene Dawner is amused :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty Adelene
    Fael Illyar: ty Adele :)
    Susi Alcott: I feel so happy that all are so calm

    eventually Fael spots a Linden in the air above us and we are joined by Udge, an SL Mentor and sometime visitor to PaB sessions, and Adelene departs briefly to check on 3de......

    Fael Illyar: ah, There's linden floating up in the air
    Adelene Dawner: yay
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Scathach Rhiadra: yay indeed:)
    Adelene Dawner: Glad I took pix while I had a chance ^.^
    Susi Alcott: I'm glad for that too
    Udge Watanabe: ha, I'm not superman just a mentor.
    Udge Watanabe: it's happening all over SL, xxxxxx xxxxxxx has been busy
    Scathach Rhiadra: so it seems
    Tarmel Udimo: hey Udge
    Adelene Dawner should maybe go check on 3de...
    Tarmel Udimo: Thought we needed a man to protect us?
    Susi Alcott: hi Udge
    Udge Watanabe: yeah
    Adelene Dawner: Back in a flash.
    Tarmel Udimo: glad you came:-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: haha
    Fael Illyar: Hi Udge :)
    Udge Watanabe: heheh
    Udge Watanabe: as though Susi could not do a better job than I
    Tarmel Udimo: yeah but you've got the 1800 Cowboy outfit on ;-)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fael Illyar: wb Adele :)
    Susi Alcott: can support only with spirit :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: wb Ade
    Susi Alcott: wb Adelen
    Adelene Dawner: All clear ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks susi
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Udge Watanabe: aaah, there may be a way to find the rezzers and kill them.
    Udge Watanabe: back in a bit

    So, as we settle down after the excitement, the talk turns to griefing......

    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Scathach Rhiadra: well that was a different session, it is usually very quiet here at this time!
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: refreshing for a change :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
    Adelene Dawner: ... it's probbaly not good that I've figured out at least two different ways to upgrade that attack, already ^.^
    Scathach Rhiadra: SL excitement
    Susi Alcott: lol
    Fael Illyar: well, as long as you don't use the upgrades :P
    Adelene Dawner giggles.
    Tarmel Udimo: they don't call you brilliant for nothing ade:-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: still looking udge
    Fael Illyar: but it might've been more interesting if the boxes had been interesting looking as well :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes true fael
    Fael Illyar: although, if it was beautiful enough, it would stop being plainly and cleanly griefing :)
    Adelene Dawner: ....Faaaa, don't give me ideeeas...
    Adelene Dawner: :D
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, but there was an attack on a sim a while age, the objects were able to send out spam hatemail in the names of anyone standing on the ground
    Susi Alcott: lol
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Susi Alcott: >Ade
    Fael Illyar: people do get creative about griefing it seems
    Adelene Dawner reminds herself that she will have an OpenSim of her very own soon that she can do crazy things like that on.
    Adelene Dawner: (At least for the testing stages. ^.^)
    Fael Illyar: but this is the first time I've seen this kind of griefing attack :)
    Susi Alcott: seen such that Av's have been hurted; not able to move
    Fael Illyar: I've been tossed about in a public sandbox once but ... other than that, nothing
    Adelene Dawner has had pretty good luck with griefers.
    Susi Alcott: for some reason I left 'behind' my friends and was safe for that
    Scathach Rhiadra: I was attacked in front of about 60 avs once, very humilating:)
    Susi Alcott: that was early in my life in SL
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Tarmel Udimo: gosh that's awful sacth
    Udge Watanabe: well, that was vastly entertaining
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes!
    Tarmel Udimo: so what happened scath?
    Scathach Rhiadra: nothing, they all 'politely' ignored it
    Tarmel Udimo: oh nobody came to your rescue?
    Udge Watanabe: what? when?
    Scathach Rhiadra: nope
    Tarmel Udimo: and where?
    Fael Illyar: what kind of an attack? That is if you feel like talking about it.
    Susi Alcott: maybe we hae some special connections because Udge came for help
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, better not, it was a while ago
    Udge Watanabe: I'm sorry to hear it, Scath.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes me too,
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: may I tell a story ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, I wouldn't like it to go in the logs
    Fael Illyar: Sure :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: sure Sussi
    Susi Alcott: again I was so sad that I am not skilled with pc
    Susi Alcott: but Udges coming remined me of so many events in my RL
    Udge Watanabe raises an eyebrow
    Susi Alcott: how I've asked if I'de need to learn much much more
    Susi Alcott: but I've always got the anser 'no'
    Susi Alcott: that nobody needs to know all
    Susi Alcott: that it's not even ment to
    Susi Alcott: people are ment to work together
    Susi Alcott: thnak you Udge for your choices
    Udge Watanabe nods
    Susi Alcott: end of the story
    Udge Watanabe: well, I didn't actually do much. Just flew around and talked to a few people
    Tarmel Udimo: :P
    Tarmel Udimo: are you ready to tell us scath?
    Susi Alcott: and that's the way most of the genuin helpers are even ment to 'take' things :)
    Tarmel Udimo: nudges Scath:-)
    Adelene Dawner: You don't have to, Sca.

    Udge gives us a lesson on griefing and how to deal with it......

    Udge Watanabe: the question of how communities deal with aggression from outside is a very tricky one
    Udge Watanabe: as we've seen here recently :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: Yes, although there are different levels :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm, well pema, scath and i are now on the black list:-)
    Fael Illyar: what I thought was nice, though, is that the Playgoda kept the boxes from coming in here :)
    Susi Alcott: oh
    Udge Watanabe: oh yes, but the principle is similar. Griefing and verbal abuse are morally easy here because there is no "cost" to joining SL or to leaving it
    Susi Alcott: how come ?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes how come?
    Udge Watanabe: it's unlikely but possible that one of us even knows who "xxxxxx xxxxxx" is.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, an Alt:)
    Udge Watanabe: you just create an alt, log in, grief someone, and log out for ever.
    Udge Watanabe: xxxxxx will be banned, but that won't stop the original from entering SL again
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Susi Alcott: that's why to bann somebody is not any simple thing to do either
    Tarmel Udimo: and how does one protect oneself if attacked
    Susi Alcott: there are many different kind of shields created too
    Tarmel Udimo: might be wise to know
    Udge Watanabe: the best is simply to sit on something, most simple attacks don't work if you are seated
    Tarmel Udimo: ohh good to know
    Udge Watanabe: or TP away, anywhere.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles and wishes that she hadn't pointed out earlier that she's more than capable of that kind of attack .... um, if it was me, it would have been more interesting? ^.^
    Susi Alcott: thank you for that teaching
    Tarmel Udimo: doubt ut adelene
    Udge Watanabe: sure, and Fael and perhaps myself too. What is lacking in us is not ability but malice :)
    Adelene Dawner nods.
    Fael Illyar: you know, there many people who have the skills to do it :)
    Udge Watanabe: oh yes.
    Tarmel Udimo: so it wsn't just directed at us?
    Susi Alcott: I think not
    Udge Watanabe: oh no, it has been going on all over.
    Fael Illyar: and... all you really need for doing something like that is a readymade script.
    Udge Watanabe: this particular attack covered four sims
    Scathach Rhiadra: really an attack on LL
    Udge Watanabe: including a welcome area
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Tarmel Udimo: why bother
    Udge Watanabe: vandalism.
    Udge Watanabe: just like RL
    Adelene Dawner: /me's tastes run more to anti-crime anyway. ^.^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_D...pts#Anti-crime ... which she *is* now contemplating but probably will not do. Probably. ^.^
    Scathach Rhiadra: they could bring down the grid
    Udge Watanabe: they try to.
    Udge Watanabe: if that happens, LL follow the abuser's IP number back to their RL address and sue them in RL
    Udge Watanabe: American courts take "interference in business" very seriously
    Udge Watanabe chuckles at anti-crime. Nice idea.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Adelene Dawner: /m wants to commit breaking and decorating. ^.^
    Scathach Rhiadra: I heard there used to be a police force in SL
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Scathach Rhiadra: set up by the residents I thnik
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Susi Alcott: sorry I must leave
    Fael Illyar: See you later Susi :)
    Adelene Dawner: I read about that. Complicated. Better that it's gone, probably.
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Adelene Dawner: Cya, Susi.
    Udge Watanabe: bye susi, take care.
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Susi:)
    Tarmel Udimo: see you susi be well
    Tarmel Udimo: yes why was it complicated
    Adelene Dawner: Well, they were all but griefers themselves. It was a protection racket, in some ways.
    Udge Watanabe: as happens in many RL police forces...
    Scathach Rhiadra: better off without them:)
    Tarmel Udimo: no good
    Udge Watanabe: community policing works well if there is a community which is stable, and which it "costs" to join or leave
    Fael Illyar: yes, all that's needed for a protection racket is that someone decides protection is required, sets up a force, then wants anyone who might benefit from it to pay for it and ... well, there we go

    Then an interesting discussion develops concerning our experiences of 'alts'......

    Udge Watanabe: none of us sitting here would think to deface the Playgoda, becuse we are all known to each other. We have invested a lot of time and efort into building identities here which you have a share in
    Udge Watanabe: alts have none of that. And creating alts is easy, perhaps too easy.
    Fael Illyar: having creating an alt to be easy has both benefits as well as drawbacks
    Udge Watanabe: true
    Udge Watanabe has two.
    Tarmel Udimo: to switch from al to al do you have to log out?
    Udge Watanabe: yes, unless you have two SL-capable computers and a fast connection :)
    Adelene Dawner: If you have it set up right, no.
    Fael Illyar: Well, generally yes, although there are ways to run two at once on one computer too
    Adelene Dawner has run three clients at once on this machine.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Fael Illyar: but the easiest is to have two computers
    Udge Watanabe: wow
    Adelene Dawner: Very laggy tho.
    Udge Watanabe: yeah, I bet
    Fael Illyar: the lag can be fixed by halving the texture memory setting :)
    Fael Illyar: (and having dual core processor)
    Scathach Rhiadra: you could have both your avs meet in the same place:)
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm :)
    Fael Illyar has done that ;)
    Tarmel Udimo: that would be cool
    Tarmel Udimo: have you fael?
    Udge Watanabe: people do meet their avs, and talk and dance with them
    Scathach Rhiadra: but you would want to be a very fast typist:)
    Udge Watanabe: heheh
    Tarmel Udimo: hahahaha
    Udge Watanabe: I've only done it once, I found it very disturbing.
    Scathach Rhiadra: I can imagine:)
    Udge Watanabe: I am very strongly "embodied" in SL, htse pixels are my body.
    Tarmel Udimo: well i may have to have a 2nd av at some point
    Udge Watanabe: so seeing two of my bodies on screen was actually distressing physically. It destroyed the embodiment
    Udge Watanabe: I haven't done it again.
    Fael Illyar: I didn't find it disturbing ... although, I found curious changes in what I was able to say easily depending on which alt I was using :P
    Tarmel Udimo: Tarmel is already displaying very specific qualities:-)
    Udge Watanabe: oh yse, that is very true. Alts are distinct personalities.
    Adelene Dawner: I haven't interacted with my alt, but I have had us both online at once, for scripting and building purposes. It's not too bad, I think.
    Tarmel Udimo: tarmel doesn't like flimsy clothes :-)
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    Udge Watanabe: perhaps your future alt will, though?
    Scathach Rhiadra: and do you find you think of one as you, so to speak, and care more for that av?
    Adelene Dawner: Once you wrap your mind around the idea of being over here *and* over there at the same time, anyway, it's not too bad.
    Udge Watanabe: no, I love them both, and they love each other too.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, good:)
    Udge Watanabe: I feel a surge of love and happiness when Udge thinks of Alt.
    Udge Watanabe smiles and leans back against Fael.
    Tarmel Udimo: so you've had 3 av's adelene?
    Adelene Dawner: Well, there's this one, and there's my old av Annae, and then I have my Teen Grid av Annae, too, for a recent project.
    Tarmel Udimo: Annae?
    Adelene Dawner: Related to my RL name.
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh
    Udge Watanabe: but Scath, there is a difference too. Udge was my first av, Alt came later and has pretty well taken over. I hardly get on these days.
    Fael Illyar: another name :)
    Fael Illyar: my alt might have logged in just now but I'm feeling too lazy to tweak the client on this laptop to handle two at once. :P
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    Adelene Dawner nods - Annae doesn't log on much at all any more, either. Just for building/scripting stuff.
    Fael Illyar: no access to two computers for the moment :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, so one av might get slightly more preference then:)
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm.
    Fael Illyar: many people tend to bring more baggage for one alt than the other
    Fael Illyar: often the one with less gets preference.
    Udge Watanabe: yes, definitely!
    Tarmel Udimo: yes but that was when Udge was a rolly polly now that udge is a funky cowboy he'll be around more:-)
    Udge Watanabe: I have a friend here who is a sociologist studying SL and identity and embodiment, in particular gender in SL
    Udge Watanabe: she says that it is very common in people she's interviewed that the original was the RL person projected into SL, and the alt is then an experiment, a liberation, a chance to play
    Udge Watanabe: that is certainly true for me.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Udge Watanabe: Alt has a lightness and comfort and ease in the world that Udge and RL-me try to emulate
    Fael Illyar seems to be doing that the other way around.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Udge Watanabe: that too is common, Rivka calls it "backformation", where people learn skills in SL and then apply them to their real lives
    Tarmel Udimo: oh I'll go out and get some flimsy dresses:-)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I guess that's what I've done :)
    Udge Watanabe: heheheheh
    Udge Watanabe nods to Fael.
    Adelene Dawner has definitely done that.
    Adelene Dawner: That's a lot of what my av-type choice is about, actually.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Scathach Rhiadra: in a way, your SL life is part of your RL, so it should effect your whole life
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm
    Tarmel Udimo: agree
    Fael Illyar: not in a way, it IS part of your RL :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fael Illyar: not a separate world either. Just a "place" in RL :)
    Adelene Dawner: I think in metaphors a lot. The different avs are metaphors for different personality traits (in a complicated way) - wearing one for a while helps me practice those traits.
    Fael Illyar: of course, a place with radically different rules :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I agree
    Tarmel Udimo: what traits have you been working on?
    Adelene Dawner: Lion is... social, but in an individualistic way... social without losing sight of what I want.
    Adelene Dawner: My other social 'totem' is the wolf, which is much more conformist.
    Fael Illyar: Ah, that reminds me of the practise some eastern religions do.
    Tarmel Udimo: hummmm
    Fael Illyar: don't recall the name of the one I'm thinking of but ...
    Udge Watanabe: y'all will understand why I don't want that in the log :-)
    Fael Illyar: it has several god figures that you meditate on and attempt to import traits from to yourslf.
    Fael Illyar: or more like become the figure
    Adelene Dawner giggles at Udge, and nods.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty Udge, I'll take care of the log:)
    Tarmel Udimo: nice
    Adelene Dawner: And yes, Fa, I've heard of that - it's not *exactly* the same, but very close. Mostly my way is just gentler.
    Tarmel Udimo: well buddhism has all of those images to mediatate on
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, Diety yoga
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm
    Udge Watanabe: "what would Shiva do?"
    Tarmel Udimo: learn about death, destruction and rebirth
    Adelene Dawner: It seems like this practice can be pretty powerful, too - the first few months I was living in the quad lion av, it felt *weird* to be walking on two feet when I wasn't here. ^.^
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm :)
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it can have all kinds of effects
    Fael Illyar: better choose carefully what you become here :)
    Adelene Dawner does ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: yes sometimes switching back to speech after using chat is weird
    Udge Watanabe: do you find yurself really missing IM in RL? being able to hold two levels of conversations at once?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
    Fael Illyar: oh, interesting, I haven't noticed missing IM in RL :)
    Adelene Dawner: It's happened ^.^
    Scathach Rhiadra recently signed up for yahoo messenger, but it is not the same:)
    Fael Illyar: yes, using yahoo messenger doesn't conjure up your avatar in SL :)
    Udge Watanabe: no, not at all. I tried several flavours of chat before SL, none held my interset for more than a few days or even hours
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fael Illyar: which affects you even if you just IM
    Tarmel Udimo: also wander if it mainly attarcts a lot of singles:-)
    Fael Illyar: Before, I've used different chats for primarily practical purposes.
    Tarmel Udimo: otherwise how could we spend so much time here:-)
    Udge Watanabe: heheheh

    A very thoughtful discussion then followed on what SL 'does' for us.......  

    Fael Illyar: none of them can be really compared to what SL does
    Fael Illyar: and my first idea of SL, when I heard of it was "Just a chat with 3d candy, what's the big deal?" :P
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Udge Watanabe: we are a distinct subset of hte world population. We have computers and a lot of spare time, and a fluency in reading and writing, and would rather read than watch TV. That makes us quite odd.
    Tarmel Udimo: little did you know fael^.^
    Fael Illyar: Yes, you have to experience it to get it
    Adelene Dawner grins at Udge.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods at Udge
    Udge Watanabe nods. that was my impression too. It took _years_ between SL first crossing my radar and my thinking "I might try that"
    Tarmel Udimo: love DVD's
    Fael Illyar: well, if it was just reading, the chats would do just fine ;)
    Udge Watanabe: yes, that was about us rather than about SL
    Scathach Rhiadra: we need to be in each others presence too
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Fael Illyar: the feeling of presence took my by surprise.
    Tarmel Udimo: my little friends:-)
    Udge Watanabe: absolutely. Delightful and quite unexpected.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Fael Illyar: I was rather wide eyed at finding that my RL habit of avoiding crowds followed me to SL :)
    Tarmel Udimo: my shanga
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Udge Watanabe: read the comment to this photo, apropos presence. http://www.flickr.com/photos/12609729@N07/3309683044/
    Fael Illyar: no chat, even chatrooms with hundreds of people had had me avoiding them because of the amount of people :)
    Adelene Dawner reads, awws, and purrs at Udge. ^.^
    Udge Watanabe smiles
    Fael Illyar: Yes, excellent writing and photo :)
    Tarmel Udimo: lovely udge
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, really beautiful:)
    Fael Illyar: yes, lovely :)
    Udge Watanabe: _that_ was the surprise of SL for me, this connection.
    Fael Illyar sneaks a kiss on Udge's cheek.
    Udge Watanabe smiles and rubs his cheek against yours
    Adelene Dawner: And, that reminds me of a blog post that I wanted to share here.
    Adelene Dawner: http://www.psychologicalscience.org/...n-internet.cfm
    Adelene Dawner: They did a study on that 'the internet is bad for your mental health' thing, and for hte most part it's not - depends on where you hang out, tho. We've got it right, this kind of group. ^.^
    Fael Illyar: just like in RL :P
    Adelene Dawner: yep. ^.^
    Udge Watanabe: sure :)
    Tarmel Udimo: ty ade
    Udge Watanabe: excellent article, thank you ade
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty Ade:)
    Adelene Dawner: No problem ^.^

    It has been a long session. over two hours, so people start to say their goodbyes and leave......

    Tarmel Udimo: heading to bed soon, as i was up till 2:30 last night and must work tomorrow early:-(
    Fael Illyar: Good night Tarmel :)
    Udge Watanabe: we've done it to you again!
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Tarmel :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: and I need some breakfast:)
    Udge Watanabe: 'night tarmel, sleep well.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel, see you soon:)
    Adelene Dawner: Have a good day, Sca.
    Udge Watanabe: and I need to do some shopping, and should really have breakfast...
    Tarmel Udimo: good night everyone thnaks for a great session
    Udge Watanabe: it was a grand conversation, thank you all!
    Adelene Dawner: Bye, all, then. ^.^
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, thank you all for a great session:)
    Udge Watanabe: bye Ade, bye scath, bye fael
    Udge Watanabe: see you later
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Fael Illyar: see you later Wol, Ade, Udge :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye, Udge, Fael, Ade:)
    Udge Watanabe: thsi was a really good sesssion
    Fael Illyar: really :)
    Udge Watanabe: despite the interruption
    Fael Illyar: perhaps because of it :)
    Udge Watanabe: maybe :)

    and Udge gives me a title for the log.......

    Udge Watanabe: life's a mystery and its paths are long and twisty, as the Germans say
    Fael Illyar smiles, waves and poofs.

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