2009.03.02 13:00 - Hearing a special song

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    {Here Pema and I began a dialogue on appreciating the presence of appearance, with the intention of following up on the next Monday meeting at 13:00.}

    Pema Pera: Hi Stim, Fefonz!
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
    Stim Morane: Hi Pema, Fefonz, Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello Scath :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Scathach!
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Stim, Adams,Pema, Scathach :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Scachach
    Stim Morane: *Scathach
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Fefonz:)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Storm :)
    Adams Rubble: Hey Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Storm!
    Storm Nordwind: Hi guys :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Storm
    Fefonz Quan: hi Storm
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Storm
    Pema Pera: So today we will experiment with a new kind of format -- in between a dialogue and a normal session
    Pema Pera: Stim and I will each make a few short remarks about the theme for today "appreciating the presence of appearance" and then we can all join the discussion, but unlike most PaB sessions, we will try to stay focused on that one theme
    Pema Pera: Stim, would you like to start off?
    Pema Pera: Hi Wester!
    Stim Morane: Hi Wester
    Wester Kiranov: hi all
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Wester
    Stim Morane: So would you suggest that I talk briefly about my own understanding of this matter?
    Pema Pera: yes please!
    Stim Morane: OK, give me a second.
    Stim Morane: I'm trying to make friends with lunch, at the same time.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: For me, talking about appreciating the presence of appearance refers to something very particular. I realize that there are many different theories and approaches based on psychology of perception, phenomenology, art and aesthetics, various philosophical schools ... even within the contemplative traditions that I study there are a range of differences.
    Stim Morane: Anyway, there isn't just one view of what this would mean in phenomenology --- there are many. The same applies in the world of art and aesthetics. Etc. there's no point pretending that all of these are somehow the same..
    Stim Morane: So getting back to the "very particular" thing that I personally would emphasize as "the presence of appearance", it would refer to the arising of all things as being within the "unborn"... as actually pointing to the unborn!
    Stim Morane: By "unborn", I mean something that can't be directly "said" but that is central to a spiritual concern, and that is timeless, and the suchness of all time.
    Stim Morane: Is that enough of a start?
    Pema Pera: sure :)
    Pema Pera: I fully agree that those three words can be understood in many different ways. And for me, too, they have a special meaning.
    Pema Pera: I got in touch with that meaning 29 years ago, reading the Time, Space and Knowledge book.
    Pema Pera: And I am curious to see how that meaning can unfold here.
    Pema Pera: I would prefer not to try to define it too much, given that that is impossible anyway; rather I would like to see whether as a group we can develop a taste for it
    Pema Pera: Like a wine tasting hobby group, trying out a particular wine
    Pema Pera: Well, perhaps we can open up for questions and comments and general discussion?
    Pema Pera: Hi Arabella, Mick!
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Pema
    Pema Pera: We just started a discussion about the sentence
    Pema Pera: "apprecaiting the presence of appearance"
    Stim Morane: Arabella! Mick!
    Pema Pera: as a theme for today.
    arabella Ella: hiya Pema everyone
    arabella Ella: Stim
    Pema Pera: Glad you came to join us!
    Mickorod Renard: ok cool
    arabella Ella: yes we enjoyed last night's session lots
    Mickorod Renard: hiya everyone
    Pema Pera: even with the onigokko?
    arabella Ella: of course
    Mickorod Renard: yeaa,,he he he
    arabella Ella smiles
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: well, appreciating the presence of appearance -- anyone?
    Fefonz Quan: Stim said "it would refer to the arising of all things as being within the "unborn"."
    Stim Morane: to seeing that, yes
    Fefonz Quan: can you elaborate, since for me it is more enigmatix than the firt term
    Fefonz Quan: first
    Stim Morane: which is the "first"
    Stim Morane: ?
    Fefonz Quan: APA
    arabella Ella: i was gonna ask for a bit more elaboration too pls?
    Stim Morane: OK, the presence of appearance
    arabella Ella: (if u dont mind)
    Stim Morane: Well, it all comes down to what "presence" means.
    Stim Morane: It's precisely this "presence" that expresses timelessness and the suchness of time
    Mickorod Renard: would presence of appearance be like being in the company of?
    Stim Morane: So it's not a matter of just liking a color or something
    arabella Ella: if I may ask ... could it be an individual understanding or should it be an agreed upon one?
    Stim Morane: Yes, Mick, that's part of what is central
    Stim Morane: arabella, it could be either.
    arabella Ella: ok ty
    Stim Morane: I was expressing what it was for me, but my answer would be quite traditional within certain contemplative schools
    Stim Morane: PaB, of course, is free to do something new
    arabella Ella: yes
    Fefonz Quan would still like to hear that answer
    Pema Pera: to which question, Fefonz?
    Stim Morane: Mick, in my answer, "seeing" = being in it
    Mickorod Renard: if we hear a tune,,we are aware of it as something,,well that touches our senses,,yet appearance is often taken for granted
    Fefonz Quan: [13:16] Stim Morane: I was expressing what it was for me, but my answer would be quite traditional within certain contemplative schools
    Stim Morane: Yes
    arabella Ella: i think Fefonz may mean ... what Stim considers as 'presence'?
    Fefonz Quan: yes that too
    Stim Morane: This cannot be defined, it can only be found
    Stim Morane: my comments before some of you came into the session were part of my answer
    Stim Morane: But I can never completely say what it is.
    Stim Morane: Can we work around that?
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,this being in it?
    Adams Rubble wondering if Stim is saying to something to the effect of appreciating things in tgheir timeless context
    Stim Morane: I did say that
    Fefonz Quan: timeless as constant?
    Stim Morane: no
    Stim Morane: nor even "timeless" in the ordinary sense
    Stim Morane: There's nothing wrong with time.
    arabella Ella: timeless as 'beyond context'?
    Stim Morane: are we looking for a definition?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: I'm not sure how far I can go here ...
    arabella Ella: guidance perhaps ... i dunno ...
    Storm Nordwind: /For me, "APA" is concerned more with appearance, rather than presence. To me appearance is what takes something that is empty of appearance and gives it appearance, and takes what is not separate as makes it appear separate.
    Fefonz Quan: we can get back to presence of appearance, if the extra words got us complicated
    arabella Ella: (nice not to know)
    Mickorod Renard: I am keen on what u said to me,,Mick, in my answer, "seeing" = being in it
    Stim Morane: Storm, would you elaborate?
    Storm Nordwind: Although I expect they're bound up together, it seems easier to start with appearance
    Storm Nordwind: It is easier for me to see beyond appearance
    Storm Nordwind: than to analyse presence
    Storm Nordwind: Just a personal experience really
    Fefonz Quan: how do you see beyond appearance?
    arabella Ella: may i try to give that a go?
    Storm Nordwind: Sure!
    arabella Ella: ok here goes
    Mickorod Renard: is this in relation to people or objects too?
    Adams Rubble: Puting things in their timeless context is new to me in a sense and I am excited about trying to do that more
    arabella Ella: my vision on SL is not very good as i use a laptop which does not have very good graphics
    arabella Ella: therefore what i get to know about ppl here goes way beyond appearance
    arabella Ella: it is 'presence' more than appearance ... the essence of the person so to speak
    arabella Ella: not sure if that makes sense?
    Storm Nordwind: That's true and interesting arabella, but not quite what I was going to say! :)
    arabella Ella: i get to know the person via what they communicate rather than what they look like ... appearance plays no role
    Fefonz Quan: like you build an imaginary essence out of all the appearances (talks, image) you've seen so far Ara?
    arabella Ella: ok Storm ... different view ... not sure then
    Stim Morane: Yes, it's interesting that so far we've already found a number of different issues and angles to unpack or explore.
    Storm Nordwind: That's OK!
    Pema Pera: Hi Hana, welcome!
    arabella Ella: yes Fefonz but i would not call it imaginary
    Hana Hendrassen: Sorry, I think I just walked into someone
    Stim Morane: Hi Hana
    Hana Hendrassen: hello
    arabella Ella: I call it more real than appearance
    arabella Ella: beyond the image
    Mickorod Renard: how about making pre formed idea's first,,like that person must have a past,,etc etc
    arabella Ella: as opposed to RL image which often comes first
    Pema Pera: Hi Arisia!
    Storm Nordwind: To me appearance dissolves when I experience that there is no separation between anything, when I experience the stereotypical hippy "it's all one man!" (peace bro!)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    arabella Ella smiles
    Stim Morane: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    arabella Ella: (or female)
    Storm Nordwind is abashed!
    Hana Hendrassen laughs
    Fefonz Quan: but according to arabellas description therre is a diferent essence to each person/object
    Fefonz Quan: though hidden
    arabella Ella: i may be wrong Fefonz that was just my opinion
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, to me appearance is everything that arises, not just visual
    Mickorod Renard: so a person is more than their apearance,,they are the sum of their lives and experiences?
    arabella Ella: not necessarily Mick as here we meet ppl without their everyday 'baggage'
    arabella Ella: at least in my opinion
    Fefonz Quan: but this is a little far, we talked about appereciating the appearances, not the essences behind them
    Pema Pera: Hi Planet, come join us
    Storm Nordwind: That's interesting Mick. By extension, is Being the sum of everyone's life and experiences? :)
    Mickorod Renard: true Felonz
    Mickorod Renard: I guess it is
    Mickorod Renard: the hidden
    Fefonz Quan: so do we need that essence in order to APA?
    Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
    Fefonz Quan: (me asking, cause finding essence seems a very hard task)
    Wol Euler: evening all!
    Wol Euler: sorry I'm late
    Stim Morane: Hi Wol
    Hana Hendrassen: Hello Wol
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Wokl
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol :)
    Mickorod Renard: Wol
    Storm Nordwind: The key to appearance, it seems to me, is that it arises in your mind. Without your mind, where is the appearance, of anything hidden or unhidden?
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Wol
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Pema Pera: Well, I'm not sure where to pick up a strand in here -- but to go back to appearances, Stim and I meant the word in terms of everything that appears, to the senses or to the mind, any kind of experience, yes, Storm
    Pema Pera: so not the particular appearance of an avatar, say -- interesting though that topic is, for sure -- but that's a different topic
    Pema Pera: the sheer fact that anything appears at all
    arabella Ella: ok i see
    Pema Pera: that's the magic and the mystery
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,with you there
    Stim Morane: In a sense, all I was saying is that each appearance is profound, is in fact All. Nothing is banal or trivial. Nothing can be taken for granted (just because it's allegedly unimportant or lacking in spiritual significance). And building on Storm's and Mick's comments, we are fully "with" each appearance and can be found and fulfilled in each.
    Pema Pera: perhaps, as a metaphor: turning from the movie to the light; from the painting to the paint -- but those metaphors are too limited; Stim just said it in far more radical ways
    Pema Pera: to see the world in a grain of sand . . . .
    Pema Pera: all of the world
    Fefonz Quan: but stim, if i try to be practical (sorry...), how would i see that in any appearance?
    PlanetNiles Dreamscape: its "infinity in a grain of sand"
    Fefonz Quan: my glass is just my glass
    Stim Morane: Yes, the "how" is a big part of what's at issue ....
    Stim Morane: I think this has been discussed a lot in PaB. Perhaps there isn't much I can add.
    Stim Morane: But it is important, admittedly.
    Pema Pera: when you do vipassana, Fefonz, I think you sometimes see more than "just a glass", no?
    Fefonz Quan: in fact i see less, if you ask :)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Storm Nordwind: There's a saying that when someone passes a judgemental opinion on someone else, that they are saying more about hemselves than about he other person. Similarly when we see something esel - a grain of sand, for instance - we are seeing more of ourself than anything else.
    Stim Morane: Yes
    PlanetNiles Dreamscape: you're talking about a holographic universe
    Stim Morane: And that points at the "how" part ... we deal with our own overlays
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,a grain of sand is so mundane that ur imagination,,(youself) makes up all the rest
    Fefonz Quan: so we use that grain of sand a a mirror to reflect the wholeness of our consciousness?
    Fefonz Quan: (like testing a telescop vs. a mirror)
    Pema Pera: let's first find an instance in your life, Fefonz, where appearance was really jumping up in your face, so to speak
    Storm Nordwind: No Mick. It acts as a mirror to who you are. It gives you the opportunity to see the see-er.
    Pema Pera: can you give an example?
    Stim Morane: Yes, I agree with Storm
    Pema Pera: like walking in a landscape and suddenly seeing its full splender
    Mickorod Renard: mmmmmm?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, splender is nice
    Pema Pera: like magic, like sacred, in all its mundaneness?
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,have related to that
    Pema Pera: Can you give us a specific example, Fefonz, if you don't mind?
    Fefonz Quan: hearing a special song, for example.
    Pema Pera: can you give a specific song?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: and a specific experience with that song?
    Fefonz Quan: not now, but the experience there is of big joy and peacefulness,
    Pema Pera likes to really get away from generalities and ideas here . . ..
    Fefonz Quan: but is it about the appearance of the song?
    Pema Pera: I think there is a key to appreciating appearance there, Fefonz
    Pema Pera: can you describe more what that big joy was, how it felt?
    Pema Pera: we have to build bridges with words . . . .
    Pema Pera: if Stim and I give definitions, that won't help . . . too one-sided
    Fefonz Quan: like every thing is good as it is,
    Pema Pera: ah, yes!!
    Mickorod Renard: I have felt a washing over of peace and well ness
    Fefonz Quan: like no desire to be anywhere else or anywhen else
    Stim Morane: OK
    Pema Pera: in the way it is there, in its presence, in the way it presents itself, appears, right?
    Fefonz Quan: that's my best description
    Mickorod Renard: cascading down my shoulders
    Pema Pera: <- good as it is, I meant
    Fefonz Quan: yes, though by then i can stop the song and still be there
    Pema Pera: does it make sense to you, Fefonz, that that could be connected with presence and with appearance and appreciation?
    Pema Pera: with our without song?
    Fefonz Quan: coming to talk on it, it was more like appereciating the presence than the song appearance
    Pema Pera: yes, as you said: Fefonz Quan: like no desire to be anywhere else or anywhen else
    Fefonz Quan: like the song was just the opening the door
    Stim Morane: yes
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: there you go :-)
    Pema Pera: no time
    Fefonz Quan: halas, the keys to that door change all teh time :)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, that's why there seems to be a need to practice
    Pema Pera: for playing the piano and for playing as Being
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,that makes sense
    Pema Pera: playing as Being is only a few minutes a day, spread over 9-sec intervals
    Pema Pera: playing the piano takes hours a day, much harder
    Pema Pera: but whatever you do ten days a day will get under your skin
    Stim Morane: *times
    Pema Pera: the question is: by stopping for 9 seconds, can we find the door to presence and appreciation and appearance?
    Pema Pera: sorry, yes, ten times a day , oops!
    Pema Pera: overenthusiastic was I
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Mickorod Renard: nice idea,Pema,,has anyone here got good results yet?
    Pema Pera: How to find the bridge from "drop what you have to see what you are" to "APA"
    Pema Pera: yes, Mick, see our web site, where is it . . .
    Mickorod Renard: I have had a peek
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_log_excerpts/Excerpts_(short)
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,saved that
    Pema Pera: I think the bridge will form itself, largely, by practicing . .. . and a little help from our friends here, in these conversations
    Wester Kiranov: sorry, have to go, rl intervening. thank you stim, pema, everybody else
    Pema Pera: you should all feel free to ask questions about these points, during any of our sessions
    Pema Pera: Bye Wester!
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking about this driving home tonite
    Wol Euler: bye wester, take care
    Stim Morane: Bye
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wester
    Mickorod Renard: and realized that the day was so frantic I had forgoten altogether until on way home
    Pema Pera: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ty P
    Pema Pera: I know the feeling!
    Pema Pera: that's what finally pushed me to the 9-sec . . . .
    Pema Pera: as a kind of emergence measure
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i must set a timer
    Mickorod Renard: but in a college environ. I have to keep noise down
    Mickorod Renard: and set an example
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: one way to do it is by keeping a note book open, or a file
    Wol Euler snorts. In my day, students didn't need to be shown how to make noise.
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: and to write a "--" for each missed opportunity
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Pema Pera: and after a while you'll get into the habit of writing something a few times an hour
    Pema Pera: doesn't have to be exactly 15 minutes
    Mickorod Renard: its just starting it i guess
    Pema Pera: yes, like everything, including playing the piano :)
    Storm Nordwind must excuse himself. He needs a brief break before the 2pm workshop
    Pema Pera: are there any other comments, suggestions?
    Pema Pera: bye Storm!
    Stim Morane: Yes, time to start wrapping up
    Stim Morane: Bye Storm!
    Wol Euler: bye storm
    Pema Pera: h
    Pema Pera: how strange to see myself typing without me typing :)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: SL is wonderful
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: can we appereciate the appearance as they are, no need for "deeper" insight involved?
    Pema Pera: no need for us involved!
    Stim Morane: Yes, the "deeper" idea is a tangent
    Pema Pera: indeed
    Pema Pera: nothing involved, really
    Pema Pera: that is then appearance right there
    Fefonz Quan: (tangent=sin/cos?)
    Pema Pera: skip the sin !
    Stim Morane: unnecessary
    Pema Pera: :)
    Stim Morane: misleading
    Wol Euler: in the sense of flying off at an angle rather than following the curve, yes.
    Fefonz Quan: ok
    Pema Pera: yes
    Stim Morane: I will have to go now too.
    Pema Pera: well, shall we end here and continue next week?
    Arisia Vita: have to go now, see you all later I hope
    Adams Rubble: bye Stim. Thanks
    Stim Morane: Fefonz, Mick, Arabella, Storm and Adams have all mentioned particular angles that I hope we can discuss more at some point.
    Wol Euler: thank you stim and pema.
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim thank you
    Mickorod Renard: I think I am always guilty of trying to complicate things
    Fefonz Quan: thanks Stim and Pema
    Stim Morane: Thanks. Bye everyone!
    Mickorod Renard: bye stim
    Pema Pera: we can start with the bridge idea: [13:48] Pema Pera: How to find the bridge from "drop what you have to see what you are" to "APA"
    Hana Hendrassen: I should be heading off too
    Adams Rubble: bye Hana
    Hana Hendrassen: byebye, nice to see you all ^_^
    Mickorod Renard: bye hana
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Hana
    Wol Euler: bye hana, take care
    Hana Hendrassen waves and poofs
    Pema Pera: well, bye everybody!
    Adams Rubble: bye Pema :)
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Pema :)
    Pema Pera: by Chuck :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema, thank you:)
    arabella Ella: correct or amend
    Adams Rubble: yes, thank you :)
    arabella Ella: bye Pema and thanks!
    Mickorod Renard: Bye Pema
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou
    Fefonz Quan: infact i hoped that teh "appereciation" could lead to bringing compassion and optimism to our practice
    Wol Euler: I'm inclined to think that it would...
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure it will do
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I was just trying to say that :)
    Fefonz Quan: aside from just seeing bare things as they are that sounds sometimes a little analytic to me
    Adams Rubble: it gets us in touch with the timeless
    arabella Ella: @ Adams ... could u explain what u mean by 'the timeless' please?
    Fefonz Quan: thanks Arabella :)
    Adams Rubble: Well actually Stim brought it up, I just pounced
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i guess life rushes by so fast that its gotta be a good thing to be able to reflect and take in the world
    arabella Ella: was gonna ask you that question Fefonz ... smile!
    Adams Rubble: It is the eternal
    Fefonz Quan: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: Atman, adams? i thought i got read of that
    Fefonz Quan: ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: we got*
    Adams Rubble: ?
    Wol Euler: I think it means stepping aside from time, stepping off the conveyor belt of "what to do right now" for a moment
    arabella Ella: but ... Adams ... in simple terms ... stoping and appreciating 'presence' ... helps us to get in touch with the timeless?
    Wol Euler: can happen as well by counting the petals on a dandelion as by contemplating Buddha
    Adams Rubble: It has for me a clouple of times
    Adams Rubble: not all the time
    Fefonz Quan: which are the same Wol :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Adams Rubble: I felt free
    Mickorod Renard: I remember that feeling when I was a child
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Wol Euler smiles. It'S still there, waiting for you.
    Mickorod Renard: responsibilities take it away from us
    Adams Rubble: we build layers and can't see through them
    arabella Ella: yes but we should all try to cultivate 'the child within' I think
    Mickorod Renard: I must admit recently to having a longing for it
    Adams Rubble: yes, approaching things as a child can help
    Fefonz Quan: in some he is too cultivated, ara :)
    Adams Rubble: looking at everything as if it is new
    Fefonz Quan: yes, this is hard adams
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,the hours I spent as a kid inspecting what goes on in a hedge
    arabella Ella: ppl sometimes think i am naive or have had too much to drink when i give the child within rein ... but i see nothing wrong with it
    Wol Euler smiles
    Mickorod Renard: I am all with you on that Ara
    Adams Rubble: yes, a feeling of being drunk when part of us emerges
    Mickorod Renard: and I love being a kid
    Adams Rubble: I had that recently :)
    arabella Ella: yes Adams
    Fefonz Quan: didn't mean to say there's something wrong with it arabella
    arabella Ella: I often respond to ppl with the phrase ... I am high on life
    Adams Rubble: :)
    arabella Ella: hey Fefonz I took what u said in good spirit i think i know u a bit now ... smile
    Fefonz Quan: yes, as a child a small ball of falafel makes you happy for hours... miss that
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    arabella Ella: isnt falafel the hot spicey sauce? felfel?
    Adams Rubble: as a child we do not worry about asking questions for fear they are dumb
    Fefonz Quan: (says fefonz who was dancing lightly in the store yesterday finding a nice ice cream :))
    Wol Euler: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Adams Rubble: :)
    arabella Ella: how lovely fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: ye, in a way it left the actual eating redandent
    Adams Rubble: I need to go but it is nice we got to talk abit afterward. Thank you all. bye :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Adams:)
    Fefonz Quan: bye adams :)
    Wol Euler: bye adams, take care.
    arabella Ella: bye Adams
    Mickorod Renard: bye Adams
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, see you all again soon:)
    arabella Ella: bye Scath
    Mickorod Renard: bye scath
    Wol Euler: bye scath, slep welle
    Fefonz Quan: namate, Scath
    Wol Euler laughs at her spelling
    Wol Euler: ye olde englyssh
    Fefonz Quan: (that was a silent 's')
    Mickorod Renard: must be
    arabella Ella smiles ... of course Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: (try hearing it with franch accent:))
    arabella Ella: so ... again ... hw can u make a ball of falafal if it is a spicey sauce?
    Mickorod Renard: I spent some time in Nepal,,everyone said it there
    Fefonz Quan: it is not a spicey sauce
    arabella Ella: what is is?
    arabella Ella: i know felfel ... a spicey arabic sauce with red pepper
    Fefonz Quan: it is made of cilantro, sesame and other stuff
    Fefonz Quan: felfel is the arabic word for pepper
    Wol Euler: falafel are the veggie balls that the sauce is poured over
    arabella Ella: oh no ... another word i dont know ... cilantro?
    Fefonz Quan: falafel is another thing
    arabella Ella: ok new to me ... i only know felfel ... hot pepper
    arabella Ella: do u understand arabic fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: coriander
    arabella Ella: oh ok i see
    Fefonz Quan: no, but i understand hebrew :)
    arabella Ella: ok cool
    arabella Ella: may i ask where in the world u r based?
    Fefonz Quan: infact i know hebrew, i understand english
    arabella Ella: in other words ... where r u?
    Wol Euler: a subtle but valuable distinction
    Fefonz Quan: in princeton now :)
    arabella Ella: cool
    arabella Ella: how lucky IMHO
    arabella Ella: and you Wol?
    Wol Euler: germany, but I am english
    arabella Ella: cool
    Fefonz Quan: yes, away from home
    arabella Ella: now Fefonz ... how do u get to go to Princeton .... million dollar question
    Fefonz Quan: well, i married an extra smart wife doing a post-doc here :)
    Wol Euler grins
    arabella Ella: wow extra cool then ... brilliant!
    Mickorod Renard: nice one
    arabella Ella: maybe i could consider persuading Pema to invite me to spend part of a sabbathical there
    Fefonz Quan: then pema "fished" me to his department
    arabella Ella: would make a nice difference from living on a little island on another planet
    arabella Ella: fantastic
    Fefonz Quan: marsian, Ara? !
    Mickorod Renard: was einstein there?
    Fefonz Quan: yep he was
    arabella Ella: venetian Fefonz ... remember ... Venus and moon
    Fefonz Quan: ok :)
    Wol Euler: most of the inventors of the A-bomb were gathered from Princeton, IIRC
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thought so
    Fefonz Quan: not sure, some of them got there later
    Fefonz Quan: (like openheimer)
    Mickorod Renard: I guess its quite cosmopolital?
    Fefonz Quan: sure, like most universities in the us (the top ones)
    arabella Ella: so Fefonz if i may ask ... are the numbers in Hebrew similar to the numbers in Arabic ... since both originate as semetic languages?
    arabella Ella: (and my language is of semetic origin too)
    Fefonz Quan: written differently, similar but not exact sounding
    arabella Ella: ok
    arabella Ella: so would you understand these which are in my language
    arabella Ella: erbgha
    arabella Ella: hamsa
    arabella Ella: tmien
    Wol Euler: where are you from, Ara? (sorry if I missed it if you told us earlier)
    Fefonz Quan: five
    arabella Ella: disa
    Fefonz Quan: 2
    Fefonz Quan: 10
    arabella Ella: erbgha is four
    Fefonz Quan: (4)
    arabella Ella: hamsa is five
    arabella Ella: tnien is two
    Fefonz Quan: yes, which language is it?
    arabella Ella: disa is nine
    arabella Ella: i am from Malta
    arabella Ella: it is Maltese
    Wol Euler: aaah
    Fefonz Quan: ah, very similar to arabic
    arabella Ella: the only language of semetic origin written in latin alphabet
    Fefonz Quan: i thought it's italic like
    arabella Ella: we have about 20 percent latin origin from later in our history
    arabella Ella: like grazzi - thank you
    arabella Ella: and bongu - good morning
    Mickorod Renard: I like jiddispjacini
    Wol Euler nods
    arabella Ella: yes Mick that means 'I am sorry'
    Fefonz Quan: sounds nice :)
    Fefonz Quan: it has a sound of "please forgive me" to it
    arabella Ella: it is a bit of a pot pourii
    Mickorod Renard: I hope i dont have to say sorry in malta cos i would never get my tongue around that
    arabella Ella: LOL
    arabella Ella: I can teach you how to pronounce it Mick
    Fefonz Quan: 'sorry seems to be the hardest word"
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Fefonz Quan: (billy joel)
    arabella Ella: yes u bet ... love that tune
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Mickorod Renard: that jekk joghghok is another
    arabella Ella: that means please
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,really long
    arabella Ella: but i prefer ... qalb ta qalbi ... heart of my heart
    arabella Ella: or 'hanini ' my darling
    arabella Ella: LOL
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Wol Euler smiles
    Fefonz Quan: gh - do you pronounce it in the throat?
    arabella Ella: the gh is one letter in our alphabet ... and basically it is slightly gutteral but it also prolongs the next vowel
    Mickorod Renard: that is a tough question even in english language
    arabella Ella: the h in the gh is cut off on top
    arabella Ella: not sure if u know what i mean
    Mickorod Renard: if u take cough,,and ghost
    arabella Ella: like h is struck through the top bit
    arabella Ella: in cough it is like 'f'
    arabella Ella: in ghost the 'h; is silent
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: for our gh
    Mickorod Renard: a problem is hough
    arabella Ella: for example
    arabella Ella: ghamel
    arabella Ella: to do
    arabella Ella: is pronounced
    arabella Ella: aaaaaa-Mel
    Mickorod Renard: lol
    Fefonz Quan: i see
    arabella Ella: LOL
    arabella Ella: our 'q' is more difficult
    Wol Euler: most languages have illogical sounds/letters
    arabella Ella: qalbi ... my heart
    Wol Euler: like "plough through tough dough"
    arabella Ella: that is more gutteral
    Fefonz Quan: between g and a k ?
    arabella Ella: yes Wol exactly
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    arabella Ella: u sound like a linguist ... smile
    Wol Euler: nah, I just like words...
    Wol Euler: and languages
    arabella Ella: more like a strange 'k' Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: i think i know this one from arabic
    arabella Ella: in old maltese is was pron as 'k' now slightly different .... more like a light 'k'
    arabella Ella: wow
    Wol Euler: sorry, I must go. My bed is whispering in my ear.
    Wol Euler: night all, take care.
    arabella Ella: ok bye Wol g nite
    Fefonz Quan: good night Wol :)
    arabella Ella: same time here as germany
    Mickorod Renard: bye Wol,,see u soon
    Wol Euler smiles
    Fefonz Quan: guess i'll be on my way too
    arabella Ella: i must go too
    arabella Ella: bye
    Mickorod Renard: bye fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: have a good night, Mick, Ara :)
    arabella Ella: bye Fefonz
    Mickorod Renard: ty,,and you



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