2009.03.07 01:00 - "Time is the substance I am made of"

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are hers.


    The session was very quiet to begin with; just me for the first half-hour or so.  I spent the time looking up articles on 'Time', a subject that has come up in mant PaB sessions recently, and of course the Time Workshop in the Kira Café.    Udge then arrived......


    Udge Watanabe: good morning scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Udge:)
    Udge Watanabe: how are you today?
    Scathach Rhiadra: going French today:)
    Udge Watanabe: heheheh
    Udge Watanabe: my translator, it turns itself on every time I TP.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I didn't realise they do that
    Udge Watanabe: I'm sure they aren't intended to ... :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: heehee
    Udge Watanabe: file under "cussednes of life"
    Udge Watanabe: as my uncle used to say
    Scathach Rhiadra: mm, an awful lot gets filed there:)
    Udge Watanabe: well, better to keep it there out of the way than to have it lying about in your consciousness, taking up space and energy
    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    We then had a discussion on our understanding ofTime, the eternal or timeless 'now', and how we experience it.........

    Scathach Rhiadra: I have been sitting here reading up on 'Time'
    Udge Watanabe: ah :) Lia's talk at Kira?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, the workshop:)
    Udge Watanabe: do you happen to have a URL handy?
    Scathach Rhiadra: for the wiki?
    Udge Watanabe: the transcripts; are they posted yet?
    Udge Watanabe: (Stim's workshop is lagging behind)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I think so, hold on...
    Scathach Rhiadra: sorry, for taking so long, the transcript is not yet up but this is the wiki URL http://whatistime.wik.is/
    Udge Watanabe: ah, ty.
    Scathach Rhiadra: found a superb quote in an article...
    Scathach Rhiadra:

     "Time is the substance I am made of. Time is a river which sweeps me along, but I am the river; it is a tiger that devours me, but I am the tiger; it is a fire that consumes me, but I am the fire" - Jorge Luis Borges

    Udge Watanabe nods. That sounds about right.
    Udge Watanabe: I read the transcripts of a recent Pema & Stim show :) where they were talking about time
    Udge Watanabe: I really struggle with the idea that time has no existence, because it directly contradicts my senses and perception
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I think we all do
    Scathach Rhiadra: it is one of the most fundamental perceptions that we have
    Scathach Rhiadra: and even if we come to see the timeless now, we still 'exist' in this relative universe and must engage with it, or in it
    Udge Watanabe: mmhmm. I thihk my frustration hangs on this point. What USE to me is the idea that time doesn't exist on some plane of theory.
    Udge Watanabe: I can definitely see the use of non-attachment, and of compassion etc etc
    Udge Watanabe: I suppose I am attached to "applicability"
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I think some experience or awareness of timelessness, loosens up my ideas of what constitutes reality, and it does give more freedom in how I engage with the world, so to speak
    Scathach Rhiadra: clinging to the past or just living for the future are very limiting, we miss so much of this present moment
    Udge Watanabe: oh yes, absolutely true.
    Udge Watanabe: so far, I am in agreement :)
    Udge Watanabe: the next step, to say "and therefore time doesn't exist" is where I stumble. It sounds like wishful thinking to me
    Udge Watanabe: (I am exaggerating the position, of course)
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, it exists relatively, so to speak
    Scathach Rhiadra: but there is only the 'now' which is timeless, and we experience the relatedness of things as memories or thoughts, does this make any sense?
    Udge Watanabe: not really, no. If it were only my memory, what would explain that someone else who enters the space after me sees teh miklbottle broken too?
    Scathach Rhiadra: but how do you know what they see?
    Udge Watanabe: true, I assume that I am not the only person who sees taht the car over there has a dent in its fender. Perhaps I imagine that.
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, or your perception now includes the other person seeing the broken milkbottle?
    Udge Watanabe struggles.
    Udge Watanabe: Scath, do you believe taht my perception that I dropped a milkbottle which shattered, would prevent you from pouring milk from that bottle into your tea?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, in your perception
    Udge Watanabe: and in yours?
    Udge Watanabe: (I'm not being argumentative, this is how I think, in images and analogies)
    Scathach Rhiadra: me too, it is just such a complicated subject to talk of:)
    Udge Watanabe smiles
    Udge Watanabe: I'm glad it isn't just me.
    Scathach Rhiadra: do we not assume that we all perceive the same thing?
    Udge Watanabe: within limits, yes
    Udge Watanabe: but sometimes these assumptions are justified.
    Udge Watanabe: If you were not aware that I perceived that I stole your car, then you would find it un-stolen right where you had left it.
    Udge Watanabe: Nonetheless cars are reported stolen.
    Scathach Rhiadra: agreed:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: but our perceptions take place internally, like the images sounds, smells, etc. and they are always experienced in the 'now'
    Scathach Rhiadra: even if we are remembering something from 20 years age , the memory is experienced now
    Udge Watanabe: oh yes, with its full emotional load. Absolutely true.
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, to me this is the ever-flowing timeless now, nothing more
    Udge Watanabe: so far I am in agreement, that matches my experience (perception) and memory and belief :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: we can remember yesterday, and experience it as a memory in the now, that is the only way we can experience it
    Udge Watanabe: mmm, this is where we disagree. I also experience the physical effects of yesterday's perceptions. The milkbottle doesn't unbreak if I forget that I perceived breaking it.
    Scathach Rhiadra: true
    Scathach Rhiadra: but you experience the broken milkbottle now, and the related breaking of it as a memory now
    Udge Watanabe ponders. This suggests that there are two discrete states of separate objects, which my memory and perceptions link together?
    Udge Watanabe: that today's shards of glass are not the same object as yesterday's milkbottle?
    Scathach Rhiadra: well you could say that about everything, including your 'self' always newly arisen in prerception but related or interrelated
    Udge Watanabe ponders.
    Scathach Rhiadra: and the relatedness seems to constitute our perception of time
    Udge Watanabe: hmmmm

    and then our 'time' ran out.........

    Scathach Rhiadra: difficult subject for a Saturday morning:)
    Udge Watanabe laughs
    Udge Watanabe: tricky enough on a Wednesday evening.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
    Udge Watanabe: I must ask Pema about this another time.
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, time has flown and I need my breakfast:)
    Udge Watanabe: ah, but how do you know that you haven#t already had it?
    Scathach Rhiadra: heehee:)
    Udge Watanabe: you only _think_ you haven't eaten yet.
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I have no memory of having eaten yet:)
    Udge Watanabe: a dilemman.
    Udge Watanabe: -n
    Udge Watanabe: perhaps you should eat, just in case ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Udge Watanabe: enjoy your morning, scath.
    Udge Watanabe: it was a good conversation, thank you
    Scathach Rhiadra: you too Udge, enjoy your day:)
    Udge Watanabe: take care, bye for now
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it was a great conversation, much enjoyed:)
    Udge Watanabe smiles and poofs
    Scathach Rhiadra: namasté

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