2009.03.07 07:00 - κατα ολος

((** The Guardian for this meeting was Geo Netizen. The comments are by him. **))

Geo Netizen: Hi Scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Geo:)
Geo Netizen: Quiet morning so far
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, usually is at this time
Scathach Rhiadra: even quieter at 01:00:)
Geo Netizen chuckles
Geo Netizen: I can understand that for Europe and America
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Geo Netizen: Hi Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Geo, Scathach!
Pema Pera: Good seeing you again, Geo, how is it going?
Geo Netizen: Things are both busy and good ...
Geo Netizen: I have to schedule time here at the meetings or I never get here :(
Pema Pera: I know the feeling . . .
Geo Netizen: I do keep up through the email and logs but it is just not the same as a “live” meeting
Pema Pera: for sure, yes
Pema Pera: everything is conspiring these days to keep us busy with little chores
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: just because communication is so easy . . . and we lack the time to really decompress and be silent
Pema Pera: The way I formulated it for myself, recently, was: I have to take responsibility for dropping some of my responsibilities
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Geo Netizen chuckles
Pema Pera: it's rather hard, a real challenge
Geo Netizen: That's good :)
Pema Pera: not answering an email is rude, yet if we are not careful, we can spend all our time on it . . . so learning to respond with a few lines, instead of a few paragraphs, saves time . . . but it's not much fun to have to compress yourself that way
Pema Pera: That's what's so nice about coming here to PaB
Pema Pera: we don't have to shave time here :)
Geo Netizen: and sometimes my ‘shot’ back to get the response out is, on later reflection, not quite what I wanted to say
Pema Pera: once we're here, we can relax and just chat
Pema Pera: yes, I know what you mean!
Pema Pera: "shave wisely" -- is that the new mantra?
Pema Pera looking at Geo's head
Scathach Rhiadra: sounds like a good one:)
Geo Netizen :)
Geo Netizen and rubs his head

((** Editor’s note: Geo’s dome is totally denuded of all covering **))

Geo Netizen: Hi Moon
Moon Fargis: greetings
Scathach Rhiadra: talking of little chores, did you ever hear back from the Linden you wrote to about the Tibetan Font?

((** A little tech talk mingles with a little light talk **))

Pema Pera: greetings Moon
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Moon :)
Geo Netizen wonders just how many skins Moon has
Pema Pera: I have asked several times, but never heard anything beyond "I'll look into it and ask someone"
Geo Netizen: Another interesting av Moon :)
Moon Fargis: ^^
Scathach Rhiadra: ha, they are probably short of time too:)
Moon Fargis: (then press my nose geo)

((** Geo presses Moon’s nose which produces a honk **))

Pema Pera: yes, I'm sure, Scathach
Geo Netizen laughs
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: LL is in constant panic mode, I'm sure, still behaving like a start-up company
Moon Fargis: geo: and as every av it got a dance

((** Moon’s av does a little dance **))

Scathach Rhiadra: heh:)
Pema Pera: clap clap clap !!!
Pema Pera: you could have walked out of "Spirited Away", Miyazaki's movie of seven years ago
Pema Pera: "Sen to Chihiro"
Moon Fargis: hmmhmmm
Pema Pera: ha, yes
Pema Pera: wow
Pema Pera: very impressive, Moon!
Pema Pera: no face :)
Moon Fargis: :)
Pema Pera: Did any of you see that anime movie?
Moon Fargis: yes me :)
Moon Fargis: and i love it
Scathach Rhiadra: no I didn't
Geo Netizen shakes head
Geo Netizen: Hi Steve
Pema Pera: worth seeing, very impressive
Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Steve:)
Moon Fargis: greetings steve
Geo Netizen: It is a good thing Moon walks around with his ‘name tag’ over his head or we’d never recognize him
Pema Pera: hehehe
Moon Fargis: *smiles*
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I can always tell by the laps he sits one
Geo Netizen chuckles

((** Pema decides – enough of the light banter **))

Pema Pera: Geo, coming back to our talk about having little time for doing what you want to do: I really wanted to follow up on your email in mid December about interreligious dialogue -- perhaps we can talk about it here, rather than by email?
Moon Fargis: ^^ whops.. brb
Pema Pera: It was very interesting to read the URLs you sent us on the PaB list
Pema Pera: but I don't think anyone responded to you
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: http://www.monasticdialog.com/ was one of the URLs you sent then
stevenaia Michinaga: was this related to the links send about the monks visiting catholic monastery?

((** The answer to Stevenaia’s question is ‘Yes’ **))

Geo Netizen: Just as a reminder, my involvement was being able to talk with monks who talked to participants so I have no direct experience
Pema Pera: and I wondered about how members of religious organizations can reconcile the particular vows they took and what they "see" in their own experience, when they start seeing how all religions talk about the same reality . . . .
Geo Netizen: And using many very similar concepts
Geo Netizen: though different words at times
Pema Pera: very few leaders are willing to grant that premise . . . . that different religions are different lenses through which to see reality
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: in science it is fine to say that physicists and chemists and biologists see the same material world through different attitudes, from different angles
stevenaia Michinaga: how can they deny it?
Pema Pera: but in religion it isn't quite so easy . . . .
Pema Pera: easily, Steve, they say "we have the truth!"
Pema Pera: ask the Pope . . . .
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: and truth differs from reality
Pema Pera: "Jesus died for all of our sins, but he is part of our creed, not of yours"
Geo Netizen: Some of the Christian monks also went to their monasteries too as it was an exchange program
Scathach Rhiadra: and the religious institutions themselves can become more important then whatever they believe in sometimes
stevenaia Michinaga: will agree with you there, Pema
Geo Netizen: One of the most common experiences was how little change was required to fit into the community
Pema Pera: that's very encouraging, Geo!
Pema Pera: but honestly, I can see how it is hard -- when you deeply fall in love with someone, you like to tell that person how special and unique he or she is . . . .
Moon Fargis: rehi
Pema Pera: and similarly, when you fall into reality, at least as overwhelming as falling in love
stevenaia Michinaga: wb moon
Scathach Rhiadra: wb Moon
Pema Pera: your first reaction is to focus on the uniqueness of your own path . . . .
Pema Pera: and of course the leaders have everything to gain from fanning the flames
Pema Pera: they would lose their status if people wouldn't be bound to them
Scathach Rhiadra scratches Moon's ears
Moon Fargis purrrrrrsssssssss
Pema Pera: Geo, did you hear from them how they struggled with seeing the similarities yet knowing it went against their official position?
stevenaia Michinaga: so the importance of status relates to exclusion/denial of the broader truth/reality
Pema Pera: well, any big organization become self perpetuating . . . like a business
Geo Netizen: Part of the issue is ((** others **)) using pejorative terms when describing the natural and healthy act of being in love with your faith and showing it.
Pema Pera: yes, that is very pernicious, Geo
stevenaia Michinaga: right, the "Corporate Culture"
Geo Netizen: Little is truly in opposition to core faith issues
Geo Netizen: That was perhaps the most exciting part of the experience
Pema Pera: but for Christian monks to recognize that "Jesus died for our sins" may be a way to describe that "all is already complete, and you don't have to get stuck on the notion of being stuck in samsara" must be a very very hard step to take for Christian monks, don't you think, Geo?
Pema Pera: Sorry, don't mean to sound negative, but rather want to see how far the exciting part can really be more than a hope or wish
Pema Pera: would be so nice to really realize the excitement!!
Geo Netizen: Karma, for example, has many more common traits to the concept of the result of sin then there are differences
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: But there seems to be a bit of an asymmetry -- what do you think?
Geo Netizen: and the voluntary sacrifice by one for the benefit of many is also common
Pema Pera: For Buddhists or Hinduists or Daoists
Pema Pera: it doesn't seem to be so hard to recognize in the New Testament story their main insights
Pema Pera: but the other way around may be harder, no?
Pema Pera: with all the emphasis on the historical uniqueness of one person
Pema Pera: and the notion that you are lost if you're not part of the circle focused on that one person
Pema Pera: Yes, for Buddhists, Jesus was a Boddhisattva
Geo Netizen nods

((** A dynamic of these discussion is that there can be multiple threads active and intertwined at any given point in the flow of discussion. Even after the fact, it can be a little confusing regarding which comment a specific response is directed towards. At the time one is banging away at the keyboard, it is even more difficult to keep track of multiple threads coming at you while trying to compose a reply. The result can be threads dropped unintentionally. **))

Pema Pera: but for Christians, what was Shakyamuni?
Moon Fargis: well maybe a priest
Geo Netizen: and the veneration of ancestors is in many respect very similar
Moon Fargis: or even the pope
Moon Fargis: but surely i doubt they would see them same a jesus
Pema Pera: oh, yes, the similarities are manifold
Geo Netizen: Priest or theologian perhaps
Geo Netizen: or Priest theologian :)
Pema Pera: but heretical?
Geo Netizen: Heretical is such a colored word.
Pema Pera: Hi Korii!
Geo Netizen: with many different shades and tones
Pema Pera: I'm trying to remember, have you been here before?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Korii:)
Korii Tiger: Hi Pema thank you for inviting me ^.^
Geo Netizen: Hi Korii
Korii Tiger: yes
Pema Pera: at our Play as Being sessions?
Moon Fargis: hi korii
Korii Tiger: hello Moon
Pema Pera: thought so, hard to remember it all :)
Pema Pera: Yes, Geo, and again, I'm sorry to sound negative
Korii Tiger: Hello Geo.. a pleasure to see you again
Pema Pera: I deeply appreciate all the parallels
Geo Netizen bows to Korii
Pema Pera: (Korii, we are talking about monks from Buddhism and Christianity having dialogues)
Korii Tiger: sounds interesting!
Geo Netizen: There are many on all sides that focus on the divisive
Pema Pera: but for Christians to see the historical Buddha as a priest or theologian, do you think monks can really do that?
Pema Pera: yes
Geo Netizen: I know they do ... but
Pema Pera: without being rebuked by their organization?
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe they see him as an ancient philosopher
Geo Netizen: perhaps is just the crazy crowd I hang out with
Pema Pera: good for you, Geo :-)
Pema Pera hoping Geo includes us here in his crazy crowd . . .

((** “I know they do” The ‘they’ Geo refers to are many brothers (and sisters) he knows that are very open to and very aware of the holiness and spiritual depth of others such as the historical Buddha. Geo admits it may just be the crazy crowd that let him hang out with them **))

Korii Tiger smiles at Geo
Geo Netizen: Formally, we would humbly suggest that Buddha did not possess the “fullness” of truth :)
Pema Pera: in what sense, Geo?
Geo Netizen: and yes, Geo definitely agrees this is a crazy crowd :)
Pema Pera: :)
Korii Tiger: However i believe he possessed the fullness of wisdom to realize that. i personally believe no one human being can consciously maintain the fullness of truth and still maintain a tangible existence
Geo Netizen: We emphasis the --eternally unique-- aspect of being
Pema Pera: that may be, Korii, or may not -- I myself would have no way of knowing :-)
Moon Fargis: thankfully we are not crazy.. just silly :)
Pema Pera: speak for yourself, Moon, hehe
Moon Fargis giggles cutely.
Pema Pera: in what way, Geo?
Korii Tiger: well i myself have no way of proving.. but can say i've had some experiences that lead me to believe this...
Geo Netizen: Ahhh .... yes .... none of us have complete truth ... but
Geo Netizen: we use the term 'fullness' to mean that there are points of disagreement and that we believe we are correct and he is wrong
Moon Fargis: the problem with truth is that it defines something other being false... and that’s not right
Pema Pera: what would really be great is a kind of joined monastery, where Christian and Buddhist monks would practice for at least a few years, praying together and mediating together -- say for three years . . .and then ask them on a really personal-experience basis what they saw/felt/learned, the energy, the insights, . . . .
Geo Netizen nods at Korii
Moon Fargis: wel some way there is
Moon Fargis: just remember the benedectin monks
Pema Pera: wrong as opposed to a different angle, Geo?
Geo Netizen raises his hand to volunteer
Pema Pera: well, Geo, PaB may grow into that, seriously . . . . .
Pema Pera: (sorry, several threads by now :-)
Geo Netizen: There are points that seem to exclude each other.

((** Refer to point above about multiple threads **))

Pema Pera: seem to yes
Geo Netizen: Yet, my example of unique being
Pema Pera: like very different shadows of the same object . . . would be my interpretation
Pema Pera: and Korii, may I ask about what you experienced, what you referred to?
Geo Netizen: to some extent, nirvana has been viewed as the loss of unique and the absorption
Pema Pera: ah, that is a misunderstanding, Geo
Geo Netizen: but, in discussions with the monks, we find it is not so simple
Pema Pera: nirvana is beyond the opposites of unique and equal
Pema Pera: yes
Geo Netizen: so even my example is not one with out nuances
Pema Pera: yes
Geo Netizen: What has been fun is to set a goal of arriving at a true and concise disagreement
Moon Fargis: hmm i would define nirvana more as the short while when we forget ourself as body and minded being and see the whole connection and sameness of everything
Geo Netizen: and experiencing how difficult it really is when we are listening carefully
Moon Fargis: being in them
Pema Pera: yes, Geo, agreeing to disagree is an art and a skill and a base for real friendship
Geo Netizen: Yes .... connectedness ... co-arising ....

((** If the reader of this log is a bit confused about exactly which response belongs to which specific comment/response … the editor can provide no real help; sorry. **))

Pema Pera: yes, Moon, but that does not obliterate distinctions, they are still there but not seen as obstacles
Geo Netizen: words not commonly used by us but concepts that are ultimately very familiar
Pema Pera: the real sign of respect is not to try to ignore differences, but to respectfully highlight them
Pema Pera: and learn from them, appreciate them
Geo Netizen: but my point was also that as you try to pin down those difference
Geo Netizen: they become very slipperly
Pema Pera: yes!
Geo Netizen: and may not be as different as we supposed
Pema Pera: yes!!!
Geo Netizen: *slippery
Pema Pera: I like "slipperly" . . . .
Moon Fargis: well just think for a while , as i might have told from this visualization already, you as your being mind and body is a leaf on a tree, and when you get enlighted and enter nirvana in your enlightment, you first realize yourself as leaf hanging on a tree, and based on that you forget yourself abut this fact and look through you inside the tree through the branches and notice all other leaves hanging there and the connectness
Korii Tiger: well.. the differences are an appearance for the purpose of learning.. eventually you realize.. its not that different at all
Geo Netizen: that, I think, was the most exciting experience for the monks in the exchange program
Pema Pera: yes, I can see that Geo
Pema Pera: and yes, Korii, that's why it's so nice to really take the time . . . . needed for that
Korii Tiger: :)
Pema Pera: yes, Moon
Pema Pera: Coming back to your volunteering to enter a Christian-Buddhist monastery
Pema Pera: how about a PaB monastery?
Pema Pera: in RL?
Korii Tiger: well you know.. its not really the destination that’s important.. but the journey you take to get there....
Moon Fargis: pema: hmmm sure why not.. if you invite me there to life forever ?:)
Pema Pera: yes, Korii, but we can also turn that on its head: perhaps we are already at the end of the journey . . .
Korii Tiger: good thought!
Korii Tiger: i think about that too...
Pema Pera: celebrate rather than reach for
Korii Tiger: some times it feels like i'm learning life backwards.
Geo Netizen listens to all
Pema Pera: celebrate what is already, and in doing so learning to see it better
Pema Pera: how so, Korii?
Korii Tiger: like i already know everything.. now i'm just remembering with each new experience
Pema Pera: yes, I recognize that feeling
Moon Fargis: yes exactly that’s how it works
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Pema Pera: we're removing our blinders . . . .
Moon Fargis: yes which is mostly our mind
Moon Fargis: our ego
Geo Netizen: or all that we have wrapped our Being in ....
Korii Tiger: we're removing our blinders......
Korii Tiger smiles big
Pema Pera: :)
Geo Netizen: all the shells we have constructed
Geo Netizen: all the appearances we hide behind

((** Korii sends a just taken picture of the group to the group **))

Moon Fargis: (me likes his avatars thought)
Geo Netizen smiles at Korii
Moon Fargis: ^^
Geo Netizen: O.... they guys on each end look sooooo serious :))
Pema Pera: seriously, Geo, you volunteered for this mixed monastery
Moon Fargis: ^^
Pema Pera still being serious . . .:)
Pema Pera: are you serious?
Pema Pera: in RL?
Pema Pera: such a monastery?
Geo Netizen: I would love to but ....
Geo Netizen: I'm am being sent to school to get the
Geo Netizen: formal credentials to my so far
Geo Netizen: very informal formation :)

((** Korii sends a second picture **))

Scathach Rhiadra: ty Korii:)
Moon Fargis: Thank you!
Korii Tiger: You're Welcome
Pema Pera: I actually have been thinking that some day . . . .
Geo Netizen smiles again at Korii .... TY
Pema Pera: . . . . we might want to open a RL kind of community for PaB, years from now . . . .
Pema Pera: as an extension beyond, of course, any particular religion or order or humanism or science -- all ways of knowing
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: the first step will be the August retreat
stevenaia Michinaga: my garden is calling , see you all soon, don’t forget to post the pic to the log
Pema Pera: everything starts with small steps . . . .
Pema Pera: see you Steve!
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Steve:)
Moon Fargis: see you
Geo Netizen: Ok Steve .... say hi to your garden for me

((** At the time Geo said “Ok Steve”, he though exporting pics from his SL inventory would be a straightforward and obvious process. At the time of the posting of this log he has not achieved enlightenment; if he does achieve enlightenment in the future, the two pics may appear in this very spot. **))

Moon Fargis: hmm
Moon Fargis: how would you define a "empty garden"
Geo Netizen: Hmmmm .... a dirt lot ....
Pema Pera: :)
Moon Fargis: ^^
Geo Netizen: another term for it ((** ‘it’ being a dirt lot **)) would be empty garden
Pema Pera: an empty plot
Pema Pera: no aims . . .
Geo Netizen: Hmmmm ..... interesting ((** thinking of a boring ‘dirt lot’ as an ‘empty garden’ **))

((** Editors get to explain their input while others just get posted naked! **))

Moon Fargis: i just wondered... as i ..developed ages ago.. the visualization that our mind is like a garden which he have to take care of...
Moon Fargis: and there are surley hurtung and not hurting plants inside
Moon Fargis: but now i wonder what a Buddhist garden would be as Buddhists often claimed to be empty minded
Moon Fargis: "emptyness"
Pema Pera: still hurting and not hurting, Moon, also for Buddhists
Moon Fargis: sure but no flowers at all ?
Moon Fargis: hmm maybe sand flowers
Moon Fargis: so it would be a stone garden
Moon Fargis: or a zen garden
Geo Netizen: but that is not empty
Moon Fargis: yes with sand and some stones
Moon Fargis: that’s why i wondered :)
Pema Pera: it can be seen in its emptiness aspect, no matter how there is in it :)
Pema Pera: emptiness is no other than form, form is no other than emptiness
Scathach Rhiadra: like full of the appearance of emptiness
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: yes, Scathach
Pema Pera: emptiness = fullness
Geo Netizen: every time you look more closely at emptiness .... you find something
Pema Pera: *fullness
Moon Fargis: ahh a hologram garden then
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: Time for me to return to RL . . . .
Geo Netizen: of the garden outside this pavilion
Moon Fargis: ok
Pema Pera jumping up from joy :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema:)
Korii Tiger: Bye Pema..have a good day
Geo Netizen bows to Pema
Pema Pera: (thanks to my AO)
Pema Pera takes a humble bow
Pema Pera bows to all of us
Pema Pera: such a pleasure to be able to talk about all these topics here
Pema Pera: thank you all !
Pema Pera: & c u soon
Scathach Rhiadra: namasté
Moon Fargis: well i also go
Geo Netizen: _/!\_
Moon Fargis: see you later my friends ^^/
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Moon:)
Scathach Rhiadra: and I must leave too, good bye all, take care:)
Geo Netizen: Bye Scathach :)
Korii Tiger: bye. have a good day
Geo Netizen: Seem a good time to wrap up the log