2009.03.09 13:00 - A glimpse or two

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    {In this session, Pema and I continued our dialogue from last week on appreciating the presence of appearance. Many perspectives were introduced and considered by the group.}
    Arisia Vita: Hi Scat and Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello Arisia and Scath :)
    Adams Rubble: Helo Riddle :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams, Ari
    Arisia Vita: hi riddle
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Riddle
    Adams Rubble: Hello Auroras :)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi EveryBody
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
    Arisia Vita: welcome Pema
    Riddle Sideways: ooo shhhhh, I am at work and not suppose to be playing :)
    Auroras Graves: hello Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    Adams Rubble: hello Bill :)
    Solobill Laville: Hi, all! (laggy, laggy, lag...)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema, Solo:)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Myna :)
    Myna Maven: Hi all.
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pila :)
    Auroras Graves: Hello to all clouds that are reezing :)
    Riddle Sideways: large crowd today
    Pila Mulligan: hi Adams and everyone
    Auroras Graves: welcome Pila
    Pema Pera: Waiting for Stim to arrive
    Pema Pera: and I just noticed that he has not yet put up the chat log from last week
    Pema Pera: and so I'm trying to remember where we left off . . . .
    Pema Pera: so much is happening in one week
    Riddle Sideways: ah, that is why I could not find it
    Pema Pera: Hi Stim!
    Auroras Graves: hello Stim
    Scathach Rhiadra: ello Stim
    Shilv Tigerauge: Hello all together
    Riddle Sideways: somebody come sit by me, I don't have that disease :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Stim, Chiaiu, Catia
    Adams Rubble: Hello Micherod
    Stim Morane: Hi everyone!
    Pema Pera: Stim, I was trying to remember where we left off last week -- you haven't posted the chat log yet, or did you say you gave it to Corvi?
    Solobill Laville: hehe, Riddle
    Chiaiu Chiung: hello everybody
    Shilv Tigerauge: hello
    Auroras Graves: Hello :)
    Stim Morane: No, it's as I said ... that will be emailed today.
    Mickorod Renard: hiya all
    Adams Rubble: Hello Shilv
    Pema Pera: perhaps we should just start from scratch then
    Pema Pera: today we have another "theme" session
    Pema Pera: Stim and I will each say a few words about the theme today:
    Pema Pera: appreciating the presence of appearance
    Pema Pera: and then we can all join in, in a conversation about that theme
    Pema Pera: Stim, do you want to start?
    Auroras Graves: Hello Shilv
    Stim Morane: I'm always most interested in what people are actually trying.
    Stim Morane: If someone could comment on that, I could perhaps respond.
    Stim Morane: No takers?
    Fefonz Quan: Hi all :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz and gen
    Auroras Graves: Hello Fefonz, QT and Genesis
    Shilv Tigerauge: hello
    Chiaiu Chiung: hi
    Qt Core: hi all
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fez, Gn, QTT
    Adams Rubble: Well, Stim, your comment last week aboutseeing presence in the context of timelessness has been like a key for me
    Stim Morane: Would you say more?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Stim Morane: I know it's difficult
    Adams Rubble: It has allowed me to more easily drop all my selves, attachments, identities and such
    Fefonz Quan: a mibor key? :)
    Fefonz Quan: minor
    Stim Morane: :)
    Adams Rubble: It was the missing piece to understanding APAPB
    Stim Morane: Adams, why do you think it helps with that?
    Adams Rubble: It shoots me out ofmy preoccupation with time maybe
    Stim Morane: OK
    Stim Morane: I am not certain that the emphasize I made on timelessness last week is helpful ... but it could be, sometimes, for some people.
    Stim Morane: It's just another pointer, and doesn't literally mean "absence of time"
    Stim Morane: For instance, it's not "static"
    Stim Morane: I think many of you were here last week. Do you have any comments on this "timeless" point?
    Fefonz Quan: it bumps my head every time it is said...
    Mickorod Renard: I like the ability to focus on something other than the noise of regular thouights,,this seems to give a notion of timelessness
    Stim Morane: To put my comment from last week in a different way, time is timeless.
    Stim Morane: So busy-mind thoughts are too.
    Stim Morane: This is "appreciating the presence of appearance"
    Fefonz Quan spends a lot of time in busy-mind thoughts :)
    Stim Morane: We all do.
    Stim Morane: Well, Pema I think it's your turn.
    Pema Pera: given that we already opened the floor to everyone to jump in, you can just continue, Stim :)
    Stim Morane: I don't have anything to add at this point.
    genesis Zhangsun: Stim could you say a bit more about the connection between timelessness and appreciating the presence of appearance :)
    Pema Pera: Are there any other questions about what Stim said, like his "time is timeless"?
    Pila Mulligan: it seems we are appreciating the presence of un-busy minds
    Stim Morane: OK, My point is simply that appearance is timeless.
    Pema Pera: sorry, Gen, simultaneous typing, go ahead
    genesis Zhangsun: yes but those things still appear in time
    Stim Morane: Yes but time itself is timeless.
    Stim Morane: That's presence.
    Riddle Sideways: yes, how can time be time-less. How is something is something-less?
    Stim Morane: Find out!
    Riddle Sideways: thanks
    Chiaiu Chiung: sounds like a koan
    Pema Pera: Stim sounds like Avastu :)
    Stim Morane: The very way that time is is the way that it's open.
    Stim Morane: Unborn.
    arabella Ella: could I ask you to perhaps elaborate a bit on this Stim ... [13:10] Stim Morane: It's just another pointer, and doesn't literally mean "absence of time"
    Fefonz Quan: well, length is lengthless too, i'm not sure i see the meaning beyond it
    Stim Morane: Absence of time might mean "static" ... like a clock that's frozen.
    Stim Morane: But of course I don't mean that.
    Stim Morane: This is why I'm saying time itself is timeless. My point is that time is fine.
    Stim Morane: And appearences too.
    Stim Morane: Timelessness is not absence
    Stim Morane: Although that is a possible experience why working with some contemplative emphases.
    Adams Rubble: For me the idea of timelessness is a connection
    Stim Morane: *when working
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Stim Morane: Say more?
    Adams Rubble: I think of the eternal
    arabella Ella: yes please
    arabella Ella: please go on if you could Stim ... intruiging
    Adams Rubble: Geez worda are hard :)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Stim Morane: I'm not sure what else I can add, unless I see an angle that matters to some of you.
    Mickorod Renard: timelessness is to me a state where time is not so important from a rushing point of view
    Stim Morane: un huh
    Chiaiu Chiung: yes, only the moment matters so time exists but does not matter
    Stim Morane: So you find some peace, stillness?
    Fefonz Quan: timelessness == eternal doesn't sound like what you mean Stim, ot is it?
    Adams Rubble: To me timelessness connects me to all humanity who ever lived and ever will live
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,peace
    Stim Morane: Fefonz, you are right that I wasn't emphasizing the "eternal"
    Adams Rubble nods to peace
    Pila Mulligan: there may be a distinction beween measured time (as in clock or calendar time) and expereinced or remembered time
    Stim Morane: But it's not entirely unrelated to what I was mentioning either.
    arabella Ella: 'time exists but does not matter' - Chiaiu - is that the way to look at it and approach it?
    Stim Morane: in true presence, many apparently contradictory or incompatible things are inseparably so.
    Stim Morane: *So.
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,when in a state of peace,,time should be more important
    Stim Morane: Anyway, perhaps we are moving from appreciating appearance ... if so, we can go back to that.
    Stim Morane: Say more, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,it seems a contradiction
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Mickorod Renard: but as soon as you think about time then the peace vanishes
    Stim Morane: I see. Yes.
    Stim Morane: It's really your life that we're talking about.
    Stim Morane: It would be good to enjoy it more fully.
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,very much so
    Solobill Laville: Stim, what is the relationship of appreciation to gratitude, in your experience?
    Stim Morane: Well, the former is a prereq for the latter
    Stim Morane: But both are crucial
    Mickorod Renard: I think we are all quite motivated people and that is also a contradiction in that we all want peace of mind and presence too
    Stim Morane: I get into trouble recommending gratitude to people in my groups.
    Stim Morane: But I do it anyway. :)
    Adams Rubble slips away with quite gratitude to Stim and Pema
    Mickorod Renard: sorry Sol,,i am slow typer
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, Mick, motivation is an interesting angle. How to have even more of it, while in timeless appreciation and fullness?
    Stim Morane: Bye Adams
    Stim Morane: We don't have to give up our enthusiasm just because we sense a timeless fullness.
    genesis Zhangsun: so time is the way in which space happens, it allows appearance, potentialities to unfold, so it is not a restriction as we often see it but the thing which allows everything/nothing to unforld
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Stim Morane: It operates, but stays within timelessness
    Mickorod Renard: maybe life is like a veturie..as in carburetta
    Stim Morane: ?
    Mickorod Renard: venturie
    genesis Zhangsun: ah why it is not static but timeless
    Mickorod Renard: I mean,,if you pass through a smaller hole you have to pass through faster
    Stim Morane: You're asking why, gen?
    Stim Morane: Yes, Mick
    Stim Morane: It's like fluid flow.
    Mickorod Renard: and widening our perspective may have the opposite effect
    Stim Morane: Yes
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess because I just don't get it yet :)
    Mickorod Renard: same amount of life passes but less rushed
    Stim Morane: time is timeless because of what it IS.
    Auroras Graves: i am sorry, someone is demanding my personal time in RL
    Auroras Graves: thank You all :)
    Stim Morane: I can't give a reason, that's just what's There.
    Stim Morane: Bye Auroras
    Pema Pera: bye Auroras!
    genesis Zhangsun: like how length is lengthless as Fefonz said?
    Stim Morane: I think I should stop using the "less" part ... it's probably misleading
    Stim Morane: :)
    Fefonz Quan: so we get "time is time" left :)
    genesis Zhangsun: hehe
    Pema Pera: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: maybe that is enough :)
    arabella Ella: a tautology?
    Stim Morane: or we get time is not rushed, not a compelling "run-on"
    Stim Morane: that's part of what I mean
    Fefonz Quan: Stim can you say something about APA and timelessness in the present of painful experiences?
    Stim Morane: probably all of you could
    Fefonz Quan: well, most examples here were talking about "bliss" moments
    Stim Morane: we are usually heavily pressed by the run-on character of time
    Stim Morane: Oh?
    Stim Morane: Example?
    Fefonz Quan: maybe wrong word
    Stim Morane: Anyway, here's my answer:
    Stim Morane: we suffer distress because we don't retain a connection to what we really are.
    Stim Morane: Timeless presence helps us recover and enjoy that.
    Fefonz Quan: though when in pain, the last thing we naturally want is staying in teh moment
    Fefonz Quan: (not to say make it eternal)
    Stim Morane: it seems like you would be right, Fefonz
    Stim Morane: But in fact, if you actually stayed in the presence dimension of the pain, it wouldn't be so bad anymore.
    Stim Morane: It's the opposite of what we expect
    Stim Morane: staying in our reactions and labels re the pain really hurts!
    genesis Zhangsun: yes
    Solobill Laville nods
    Stim Morane: speaking of pain, though, my arms are telling me to stop typing and let Pema take over
    arabella Ella: sounds to me a bit like mind over matter?
    arabella Ella: (not sure if expression is right one)
    Stim Morane: It's reality over reactive fiction
    Stim Morane: :)
    arabella Ella: ok makes sense
    Solobill Laville: mind with matter perhaps :)
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: Pema?
    Pema Pera: yes?
    Pema Pera: Perhaps someone would like to talk about appearance?
    Pema Pera: We have been using the words here in terms of "sheer appearance"
    Pema Pera: not like the usual way of what appears versus what it real is
    Pema Pera: but rather as it appears in its very appearing
    Pema Pera: the opposite of labels and reactiveness just mentioned by Stim
    Pema Pera: and "presence of appearance" is even more radical
    Pema Pera: there is nothing you can say about "sheer appearance" except that it appears
    Pema Pera: there is the presence of appearance
    Pema Pera: so let us talk about that -- does that make sense, do you recognize that in your life, in glimpses or perhaps even more often and clearly?
    Solobill Laville: I bet we all do
    Pema Pera: I bet with you, Solo :)
    Mickorod Renard: I may have but I still dont know what you mean Pema..sorry
    Pema Pera: perhaps you can give it a try?
    Pema Pera: does anybody want to share a glimps (or two) of sheer appearance?
    doug Sosa: what we call appearance seems to always have an aspect of what we came to call time and an aspect of things, and an aspect of space. But those three seem arbitrary and divisive. Our experience of apperance does not have a time or space or thing aspect, but an enperience aspect, and exprience of apperance that can be appreciated (almost alwys is).
    Mickorod Renard: is sheer appearance visual?
    Pema Pera: yes, Doug
    Pema Pera: not only visual, Mick, any sense experience as well as thoughts, feeling, memories -- they all appear!
    arabella Ella: do you mean Pema like my looking at the clear night sky and seeing the moon and Venus, then closing my eyes and imagining what i have seen?
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,ty
    Pema Pera: Chiaiu, would you like to add something too?
    Chiaiu Chiung: to me it seems rather difficult to see things without any labels, as what they really are
    Pema Pera: both, Arabella
    Chiaiu Chiung: i know it is important but not easy
    Pema Pera: *all* that we experience can be seen/felt/taken as sheer appearance, when we take the "I" out of the situation and "time"
    doug Sosa: This for me where the 9 sec is so valuable, slow practice letting things be eperienced without categories.
    arabella Ella: ok ... and the surprise each time they 'appear' to me, plus awe and wonder and pleasure?
    Pema Pera: yes, that is hard, Chiaiu, but we don't need to drop the labels -- just don't let them blind us
    Pema Pera: wear them lightly, as we like to say
    Pema Pera: yes, Doug, very much so
    Pema Pera: yes, all that, Arabella!
    Pema Pera: And each time we practice that, day by day, we will get more of a sense of timeless time
    Riddle Sideways: mostly I was thinking silly thougths about if apearence happens in the woods and nobldy is there... But, appearence is happening all and we experience the momentary presence s to us
    Pema Pera: yes, Riddle, hahaha, exactly!
    Pema Pera: silly thoughts also appear :-)
    Pema Pera: (in all their silliness!)
    arabella Ella: also ... like walking at night in a very ancient small town and feeling somehow .... presence ... when nothing is visible?
    Pema Pera: yes, all that and everything!
    Chiaiu Chiung: it sometimes happens .. before thoughts and labels come in
    arabella Ella: (no 'other' rather than 'nothing')
    Pema Pera: But it doesn't have to be anything special, a garbage bag on a street will do just fine!
    Pema Pera: yes, Chi!
    Pema Pera: when we forget ourselves . . . .
    Fefonz Quan: appearances do seems for me as arising in time
    Fefonz Quan: they change all the time
    Qt Core: i felt the kind of presence arabella said when in Olimpia, it was almost heavy
    Fefonz Quan repeating himself, i know
    Pema Pera: in what way, Qt?
    arabella Ella: yes Qt I also get the feeling when travelling abd visiting ancient sites and touching stones
    Riddle Sideways: the appeaance seems constant. the presnce, presents, present to us is momentary (maybe)
    OldBear Mint: anima loci...anima mundi
    Qt Core: i was there with some hundred others, but when i was a little behind and alone i felt more presence than when among the crowd
    arabella Ella: like feeling the energy of previous inhabitants ... their energy
    Pema Pera: yes!
    arabella Ella: their presence
    Qt Core: it was even before seeing the ruins, just in the park before them
    arabella Ella: yes
    OldBear Mint: that's because just like height, length, width...time is just a dimension of the material
    OldBear Mint: so they are still there
    Qt Core: i somethimes think it was the 3000 years history of the place
    OldBear Mint: the key is in the place, not the time so much
    arabella Ella: yes Qt I think i know exactly what you mean
    OldBear Mint: or at least they are co-equal
    Mickorod Renard: I feel it with heavey rain...and i want to join the rain in its ,,,,,,to dif to explainness
    arabella Ella: feeling the timelessness of the presence and appearance
    Qt Core: then sadly i was rejoned with the crowd and the noise
    Pema Pera: yes, Mick!
    OldBear Mint: time slips exist everywhere. i have been in several
    Pema Pera: and yes, Qt
    Qt Core: (not only acustic noise i mean)
    OldBear Mint: they are pretty common
    Mickorod Renard: I have stood ontop of hills in pouring rain and just wanted to shout in a long howl,,come get me
    Riddle Sideways: the persence of the holy garbage bag is one and the holy place that once (long ago) held the scared meetings
    arabella Ella: yes Qt ... other people then join in and distract ... and the intuitiv feeling somehow fades fast
    Riddle Sideways: is another
    Mickorod Renard: I think water is very special
    Riddle Sideways: this pavillion is special
    Qt Core: i think so, i don't like to be at the sea/beach but i love the sea
    Fefonz Quan: and a good example of appearance :) (the pavilion)
    Mickorod Renard: how about watching flames in a fire?
    Qt Core: i sometimes find myself here on sl observing the sea
    arabella Ella: yes ... lovely ... losing oneself in the timelessless of the flames of a huge bomfire
    Pema Pera: Yes, I like some of the islands
    Pema Pera: like Vulcano Islands
    arabella Ella: yes Qt me too ... and I love the sea too
    Fefonz Quan: I like watching fire too
    arabella Ella: but i am an islander ... smile
    Mickorod Renard: I think we have all lost ourselves in fire or water..he he he
    Fefonz Quan: though what makes it so hypnotizing is the movement, change of the flames
    Pema Pera: how large is Malta, Arabella, to walk across, how long does it take?
    Qt Core: now that i start understanding something about today discussion... i have to go
    Riddle Sideways: so presence turns toward presentations
    Pema Pera: bye Qt!
    Chiaiu Chiung: and the fire is unpredictable
    Qt Core: bye all
    Fefonz Quan: yep!
    Pema Pera: It's getting to be past the hour
    arabella Ella: Malta is about 20 miles long - takes around 12 hours i guess
    Fefonz Quan: (for chi)
    Fefonz Quan: shoud be 6 hours ...
    arabella Ella: both fire and water are in continuous movement
    Pema Pera: 6 hours perhaps, at 3 or 4 miles an hour to cross? Or too hilly?
    arabella Ella: Fefonz ... 6 hours if you could walk straight ... which is imposs
    Stim Morane: I must go now. Thanks for the insights and images, everyone!
    arabella Ella: bye Stim
    Mickorod Renard: bye stim,,thanks
    Riddle Sideways: thanks Stim
    Chiaiu Chiung: bye stim
    Solobill Laville: bye stim, thx
    Pema Pera: thank you Stim!
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, thank you
    Pila Mulligan: bye Stim
    Shilv Tigerauge: bye
    Pema Pera: I'll have to run too
    Stim Morane: I hope to see you all again next time!
    arabella Ella: bye Pema
    Mickorod Renard: bye pema
    Fefonz Quan: (did you just said i can't walk straight ara? ;-))
    Pema Pera: (run or jump)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Solobill Laville: bye, pema thx
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema, thank you
    Shilv Tigerauge: bye pema
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Pema :)
    Pema Pera: c u all soon!
    Chiaiu Chiung: bye pema
    Mickorod Renard: u need to walk staggering to avoid the potholes Fefonz
    Riddle Sideways: bye all
    arabella Ella smiles .... true Mick
    Mickorod Renard: bye riddle
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Riddle
    Fefonz Quan: bye riddle
    Chiaiu Chiung: will go, too
    arabella Ella: 45 mins to drive across the island
    Mickorod Renard: bye chi
    Chiaiu Chiung: bye all
    arabella Ella: (without traffic)
    arabella Ella: bye Chiaiu
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Chi
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Chi
    Shilv Tigerauge: bye together
    Shilv Tigerauge: cu soon
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Shilv
    Fefonz Quan: bye shilv
    Mickorod Renard: bye shilv
    Solobill Laville: I'll add myself to the leaving list...bye all! :)
    Fefonz Quan: take care Solo :)
    arabella Ella: bye Sol
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Solo
    Mickorod Renard: bye sol
    Scathach Rhiadra: I'm off too, bye all:)
    arabella Ella: bye Scath
    Fefonz Quan: night Scath :)
    Mickorod Renard: I must go now too,,thankyou for a lovely time
    arabella Ella: bye everyone i must go too
    Pila Mulligan: moi aussi
    Fefonz Quan: bye mick
    arabella Ella: bye
    Fefonz Quan: aurevoir Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Mickorod Renard: and Fefonz,,I will see u tommorow ok? for 1;00 pm
    Fefonz Quan: yes, sure
    Mickorod Renard: ciao
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Myna, Oldbear :)
    Myna Maven: Bye Fefonz. :)
    OldBear Mint: bye :)

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