2009.03.09 19:00 – Is-ness and Being

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Threedee Shepherd. The comments are by Threedee Shepherd.


    After a slow start the nature of being as doing, not *I*-ness gets thoroughly examined. Of course, no solutions were arrived at, but it was fun.



    Threedee Shepherd: chat test
    Adelene Dawner: Hi, Avastu ^.^
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Threedee Shepherd: Good Evening, Avastu
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi doug
    doug Sosa: hi
    doug Sosa: i'd like to be quiet for a few minutes :)
    doug Sosa: ah. bliss
    Threedee Shepherd: long Monday, Doug?
    doug Sosa: well, more like the long week to come, and getting ready.
    Threedee Shepherd: aha
    Threedee Shepherd: What makes it a long week
    doug Sosa: interesting meetings, talks to give, thought to think, books to read.
    doug Sosa: how about for you?
    Threedee Shepherd: Stuff. I get to clean out my old academic office, set up research equipment at the med School in Denver, go to a movie, and help a friend set up a new computer, this week.
    doug Sosa: that sounds pretty good. lots of questions like, which movie, what computer, ahchya doin in de med school?
    Threedee Shepherd: The Wrestler. New Apple 17" laptop. 3D projection equipment.
    doug Sosa: projecting images from indisde the body?
    Threedee Shepherd: No, projecting stimuli to detect failure of motion detection in early Alzheimer's Disease
    Threedee Shepherd: I was asked today by someone I just met what we discuss at PaB. I spiraled in to one word, "IS"
    doug Sosa: hm, wonder if i would pass? And is pass a yes or a no? :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Pass is no
    doug Sosa: is is good.
    Threedee Shepherd: Avastu, I thought of you, when I said that to the person.
    Avastu Maruti: pass?
    Threedee Shepherd: no when I explained we discuss "IS"
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Avastu Maruti: is-ness
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    doug Sosa: all of you are is sort of folks.
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, Is-NESS presumes IS, Thuis, IS, is the more basic question.
    doug Sosa: Thuis?
    Avastu Maruti: yes... and when "is" is also a concept, what remains?
    Threedee Shepherd: *thus
    doug Sosa: is by any other name is still is, or even if there is no name, is still is.
    Threedee Shepherd: well, if "is", is, it is not a concept but rather simply being. As soon as we make it a concept, that's when the trouble starts ^.^
    Avastu Maruti: brilliant, my friend...
    doug Sosa: right, but life without trouble is not.
    Threedee Shepherd: well, doug, "trouble" is another example of a concept that causes trouble ;>
    Avastu Maruti: what container does "trouble" appear within?
    Threedee Shepherd: what is a "container"
    doug Sosa: there are many containers, no?
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Avastu Maruti: that's the question
    Avastu Maruti: YOU are the container in which it all appears
    doug Sosa: well, then i and the universe are one. but that gets in the way if i need to eat.
    Avastu Maruti: eating takes care of itself, does it not?
    doug Sosa: i don't to be an auto-phage.
    Avastu Maruti: it is only the idea "I eat" which assumes separation from IS
    doug Sosa: No eating does not take care of itslef. it is always running away or requiring money.
    Avastu Maruti: from who's perspective?
    doug Sosa: who's on stage?
    Avastu Maruti: who's on first?
    Threedee Shepherd: I is a locus of activity that *I* seem to have subjective access to. But even the word subjective is an assumption of I, so perhaps unique is a better word
    Avastu Maruti: yes!
    Avastu Maruti: and that pure subjectivity doesn't appear - all appears IN YOU
    doug Sosa: home run, back to where he started, or has he not left yet? He who strikes out an she who hits a home run both get to the same place.
    doug Sosa: pure subjective is unlike the aroma of a shadow.
    Avastu Maruti: the shadow takes it's being, not from the object but from the sun which illuminates
    Avastu Maruti: You are the sun - illuminating all
    Threedee Shepherd: A Zen Haiku: departing geese do not intend their reflection in the lake below
    Avastu Maruti: Swans sit on the water yet do not get wet - you are the world, not IN the world
    doug Sosa: the sun does not illuminate where the shadow is.
    Avastu Maruti: without the sun, can there be a shadow appearing?
    Threedee Shepherd: you and the world are in each other
    doug Sosa: i cannot say I am the world, but i do believe that anything in the world i can experience is also in me.
    Avastu Maruti: yes, same thing, different way of expressing
    doug Sosa: not just "in me", but "also" in me. That also is important.
    Avastu Maruti: maybe you have mistaken your identity with a small part of the world
    Avastu Maruti: all appears in the pure subjectivity - "I"
    doug Sosa: it is the only way to get through a doorway. else i am already on the other side.
    Avastu Maruti: "I" is one seeing
    Avastu Maruti: you are on both sides, or there are no sides
    Threedee Shepherd: only if you are a tunneling photon, doug
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Avastu Maruti: I'd like to see that!
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, I want to be pragmatic for a moment, in a serious way. Accepting that "I" is a convenient illusionary concept, how do I behave differently in the world if I know that?
    doug Sosa: I agree with both of us.
    Avastu Maruti: If "you" are a concept, then "you" don't behave any way
    Avastu Maruti: all comes as it comes, perfectly
    Avastu Maruti: just this...
    Avastu Maruti: IS
    Threedee Shepherd: being is doing. It is not pre-determined. Accepting that, and no "I", what is *choice*
    doug Sosa: the rock is falling from the ledge above. do i jump?
    Threedee Shepherd: hi corvi
    Avastu Maruti: no - not predetermined - unfolding spontaneously
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi all.
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    doug Sosa: to me the mystery is that the world is real, and that concepts get in the way more often than not.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins wide. Hello, Avastu.
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Threedee Shepherd: spontaneously but not randomly
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi Doug.
    Avastu Maruti: you have it backwards - the world is the mystery
    Avastu Maruti: only knowable in concept
    doug Sosa: i dance to the music. i know the music, but no concept.
    Avastu Maruti: "I dance", "I know" is the illusion
    doug Sosa: leads me to not dance, which is not desireable. "to see the essence be wthout desire. To see the manifestations have desire."
    Avastu Maruti: dancing happens or not - you are not the "chooser"
    doug Sosa: not my experience.
    Avastu Maruti: choice is thought - thought is firing neurons
    Avastu Maruti: can you make a neuron fire?
    Threedee Shepherd: YES
    Threedee Shepherd: YES
    doug Sosa: neurons is a nad theory of the brain. not acceptable.
    Avastu Maruti: ok - let's see it!
    doug Sosa: nad'bad
    Threedee Shepherd: I just did
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Avastu Maruti: I see the smoke!
    doug Sosa: did what? Is not that a pice of theory very remote from experience?
    doug Sosa: pice=piece
    Threedee Shepherd: actually it is not smoke but a slight infrared radiation of the excess heat
    Avastu Maruti: too much nerve friction?
    Threedee Shepherd: no thermodynamics, no real process if 100% effective and thus there is always some heat
    doug Sosa: that is as beautiful as a poem
    Avastu Maruti: so what will your next thought be?
    Threedee Shepherd: I'll know when I have it
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Avastu Maruti: YES
    Avastu Maruti: thoughts simply appear, followed by another thought taking doership of the previous thought
    Avastu Maruti: isn't that our actual experience? if we're being honest?
    Threedee Shepherd: it "seems" that way.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire enjoys the "sound" of Avastu's pounce.
    Avastu Maruti: growl
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Threedee Shepherd: Again, let me try to circle around a concept...
    Threedee Shepherd: we are unable to know the mystery--I think absolutely unable, but that is not relevant here--so given that choice seems to be part of experience, what is the difference between an "*" choosing, versus beingness choosing?
    Threedee Shepherd: an *I*
    Avastu Maruti: the fact of that mystery is the only relevant thing
    Avastu Maruti: all else is purely conceptual
    Avastu Maruti: even the fact of your individual beingness
    Avastu Maruti: when we run headfirst into the mystery of life, we're totally dumbstruck
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but as lived?
    Threedee Shepherd: is it conceptualizing to ask, "If there is doing, is the something doing the doing?"
    Avastu Maruti: like a train
    Avastu Maruti: all words are concepts - assumptions from the initial concept or platform of illusion - I AM
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes Corvi, it is the "as lived" I am trying to explore without too many preconceptions
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: if we talk about being all the time.
    Avastu Maruti: the entire life story is a blanket of woven concepts only
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's hard to understand it as lived.
    Threedee Shepherd: why do we need to "understand" oir perhaps better, what is it necessary to understand?
    Avastu Maruti: there is no understanding
    Avastu Maruti: no answers
    Threedee Shepherd: doing is not random
    Avastu Maruti: we're left in abject poverty of knowledge
    doug Sosa: Avastu, you use "only", but that separates out something else.
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: being
    Avastu Maruti: just this...
    Avastu Maruti: indescribable
    doug Sosa: My hand is, it does things. my knowledge is, it does things. swe are mabivalent about these, yet we do the best we can. that is the mystery.
    Avastu Maruti: beyond percepts and concepts
    Avastu Maruti: you assume hand - how do you know it's a hand?
    Avastu Maruti: is that "hand" actually separate in direct experience?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i don't care what it "is" i just want to use it.
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and a label might be useful at times.
    Avastu Maruti: you have absolute freedom to use it
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves to Avastu
    Avastu Maruti: only when there is the illusion of a separate "doer" then there is a hook to also hang the suffering
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hey, Stevie.
    Threedee Shepherd: I am a baby in a crib, my arm moves. I have a sensation--a pure quality--related to that movement different from when I see the mobile over my crib move. That sensation is real, before any concepts intervene.
    Avastu Maruti: then we're constantly trying to project an image of "ME"
    stevenaia Michinaga: hey Corvim 3D
    Threedee Shepherd: hi steve
    Avastu Maruti: yes, Three - exactly!
    Threedee Shepherd: nice slippers
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a label on "me" is as useful as a label on "hand"
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Avastu Maruti: and that sensation is not separate our outside of the consciousness or perceiving in which it appears
    Avastu Maruti: have an honest look, without concepts...
    Threedee Shepherd: I don't have to distinguish conceptually between the sense of my hand moving and the mobile moving, so the essence of "difference" and thus things that are different is inherent in that experience
    Avastu Maruti: you haven't yet been given the concept of "my hand"
    Threedee Shepherd: as in, "red is not blue"
    Avastu Maruti: difference is not separation
    Threedee Shepherd: I am not sure I agree, say more
    Avastu Maruti: ok - there is a pre-existing notion of separation - that hand is "out there"
    Avastu Maruti: yet within consciousness - all comes and goes as objects OF consciousness, not objects appearing TO consciousness
    Avastu Maruti: that's the identification AS a separate "person"
    Avastu Maruti: this is obvious once the pre-conceived notion is laid aside
    Threedee Shepherd: " all comes and goes as objects OF consciousness, not objects appearing TO consciousness" is exactly right, I think. So where can we take it
    Avastu Maruti: all is consciousness
    Avastu Maruti: or what we "call" consciousness
    Threedee Shepherd: what is it that is my "sense of consciousness as lived"
    Avastu Maruti: consciousness is presently aware of itself as the body, mind and world
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wait
    Avastu Maruti: an illusion
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am lost for a second
    Threedee Shepherd: yes????
    Avastu Maruti: just this... whatever "this" might be.... IS.
    Avastu Maruti: no conditions
    Avastu Maruti: perfectly arising
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: when you are saying consciousness here...are you saying...the bit of being that calls itself Corvi...and belives that there is a bit of being that is Corvi's hand...is aware of itself as body, mind, world?
    Threedee Shepherd: consciousness aware of consciousness seems like the start of an infinite regress into chaos
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wait..back up Avastu...please?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i'm sorry to be slow.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..i am.
    Avastu Maruti: the "corvi" is another perfect appearance of consciousness
    Pila Mulligan: hi everyone -- I just realized I was caught by the time change, and so am an hour late
    Threedee Shepherd: actually Corvi, this is so hard that it is also easy
    Avastu Maruti: yet if identified as a separate thing, suffering is bound to happen
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins, hi Pila..there is no time so you can't be late.
    Avastu Maruti: yes, it's not hard, it's unavoidable
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Avastu Maruti: the body-mind you've taken yourself to be is not what you truly are
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Avastu Maruti: the body-mind is an object appearing TO you
    doug Sosa: ouch past the hour, i evaporate towards dinner :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Doug.
    Avastu Maruti: to that pure subjectivity that we mean when we say "I"
    Threedee Shepherd: I am not truly anything but my doing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok
    Avastu Maruti: so the world, body and mind are objects appearing IN consciousness or "awareness"
    Avastu Maruti: to you
    Avastu Maruti: you do not appear as an object
    Avastu Maruti: or else there would be another "I"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, slowly.
    Avastu Maruti: yet these objects aren't "outside of" awareness - they are facets OF awareness
    Avastu Maruti: awareness perceiving itself
    Avastu Maruti: AS the body, mind and world
    Threedee Shepherd: exactly, on object implies an other
    Avastu Maruti: this is our actual experience in each moment
    Corvuscorva Nightfire scratches my head.
    Avastu Maruti: concepts are overlaid
    Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, what is the nagging question you ar3e hovering around?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am focused on how i live.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am focused on scratching my head.
    Threedee Shepherd: what do you mean by that, breathing, eating, thinging, feeling???
    Avastu Maruti: see what you truly are, then life takes care of itself
    Threedee Shepherd: *thinking
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: although thinging is an interesting typo
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..sure is.
    Avastu Maruti: same thing, no?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am living...a life.
    Avastu Maruti: are you?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, a unique spatio-temporal locus of doings
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: seems so.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: exactly.
    Avastu Maruti: who is doing this?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a label "corvi"
    Threedee Shepherd: where did "who" come from?
    Avastu Maruti: what is behind the mask?
    Avastu Maruti: the image?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: as far as i can tell a specific set of experiences/interpretations.
    Avastu Maruti: that is the mind - you are not the mind - you SEE the mind
    Avastu Maruti: don't you?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: do i?
    Avastu Maruti: what sees the mind?
    Avastu Maruti: don't you?
    Threedee Shepherd: if I accept "a unique spatio-temporal locus of doings" AND I accept NO who, how does that change the course of that locus of doings in the future?
    Avastu Maruti: it doesn't change anything, three
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: right
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: why?
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Threedee Shepherd: choice is a sensation
    Avastu Maruti: why is mind
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: why sit here and talk about this?
    Avastu Maruti: beats the Hell out of me!
    Threedee Shepherd: in fact it is a sensation stronger and more obvious than color, which disappears in the darkness
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: right
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it is.
    Avastu Maruti: Corvi - are you aware of thoughts?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: something is.
    Avastu Maruti: yes!
    Avastu Maruti: perfect
    Avastu Maruti: something is aware of thoughts
    Avastu Maruti: thoughts are appearing to something
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..feels like a "corvi"
    Avastu Maruti: if you pause thought, do you disappear?
    Threedee Shepherd: do I hear Descartes rustling outside of the gazebo here?
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Avastu Maruti: he's thinking in the bushes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: except..
    Threedee Shepherd: The old joke, Asked if he wanted sugar with his coffee, Descartes replied "I think not", and disappeared.
    Avastu Maruti: exactly
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i have never paused thought
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha
    Avastu Maruti: yes, I understand
    Avastu Maruti: but thought isn't constant
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so maybe i would?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no
    Avastu Maruti: so pause thought right now
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..it always is.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: even in meditation..there is firing?
    Threedee Shepherd: if you totally paused thought youo would be temporarily of permanently brain-dead
    Avastu Maruti: that's ok
    Threedee Shepherd: *or
    Avastu Maruti: it's supposed to - that's what the brain does, right Three?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Avastu Maruti: there is nothing wrong with thought
    Avastu Maruti: if we pause it, we see it's not permanent - it's only appearance
    Avastu Maruti: it's objective
    Threedee Shepherd: of course not, any more than there is something wrong with wind
    Avastu Maruti: then we're not stuck worrying about the content of thought, trying to make it better
    Avastu Maruti: a big insight is to realize that what you are is aware of thought
    Avastu Maruti: you witness thought
    Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, I suspect that is where you and Avastu are at odds. doing exists. choice is a fundamental experience, thus "trying" is implicit in some doing
    Avastu Maruti: yes, absolutely - try until it's clear that trying is an illusion
    Avastu Maruti: until then, you have to try
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is lost here..yes..this is my sticky point.
    Threedee Shepherd: no trying is a felt sense of pressure
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: because..i do
    Avastu Maruti: so pause thought
    Corvuscorva Nightfire counts breaths.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and finds that is thought too
    Avastu Maruti: put your tongue on the roof of your mouth for a moment
    Avastu Maruti: ha! I heard it - you paused
    Pila Mulligan: when someone suggests suspending judgment I tend to wonder if they are about to ask me to vote for or pray for or donate something
    Avastu Maruti: you're welcome to donate - but I have no pockets
    Threedee Shepherd: wait does the corporeal body freferred to as Mark (the current typist) exist?
    Avastu Maruti: you exist - ONLY you
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: molecules?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: waves?
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Pila Mulligan: works every time
    Threedee Shepherd: keyboard, chair, body, whhy deny any one of them as objects in the world
    Threedee Shepherd: *why
    Avastu Maruti: it's not denying them as such - only denying the "objects in the world" part
    Avastu Maruti: that's the illusion
    Avastu Maruti: that assumes a separate "you"
    Avastu Maruti: there is no such thing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so what?
    Threedee Shepherd: an object is what an object does or can be done using it
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hand...types.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: two different things?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for the moment at least?
    Avastu Maruti: I think you're playing devil's advocate, Three - you already said these were all concepts
    Avastu Maruti: difference is not separation
    Threedee Shepherd: just because they are concepts does not mean there is no discrete physical entity that gave rise to the (confusing) concepts
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Avastu Maruti: isn't a discrete physical entity also a concept?
    Avastu Maruti: Isn't that the primary conceptual platform from which all others flow?
    Threedee Shepherd: just because the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon, that does not necessarily imply there is no moon.
    Avastu Maruti: the moon and the finger all appear AS consciousness
    Threedee Shepherd: we are back to difference and separation, again
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: we live as concepts, anyway.
    Avastu Maruti: how would you possibly know that an appearance is outside of consciousness?
    Avastu Maruti: ask someone?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, because symbols allow manipulation and thus invention
    Avastu Maruti: all proof comes within the world
    Threedee Shepherd: I cannot. It is a basic axiom. and I use the word axiom in its exact sense
    Avastu Maruti: so there is nothing outside of your own consciousness to prove separateness of a world
    Avastu Maruti: no different than a dream
    Pila Mulligan: why would dream objects not be real?
    Threedee Shepherd: correct, but it is useful to start somewhere
    Avastu Maruti: they ARE real as such in the dream
    Avastu Maruti: but they get their reality from consciousness, do they not?
    Pila Mulligan: no, they are perceived
    Threedee Shepherd: a rock in my dream is neurons firing. a rock 3 billion year old IS
    Avastu Maruti: yes - the perception and the perceiving are the same "thing
    Avastu Maruti: where can they be separated? can one exist without the other?
    Pila Mulligan: why?
    Avastu Maruti: can the subect/object equation exist in a vacuum?
    Pila Mulligan: are we all atman then?
    Avastu Maruti: YES!
    Threedee Shepherd: It is very useful not to drive your car into a big rock.
    Pila Mulligan: ah, Hindu shcmindu
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha
    Pila Mulligan: what is brahmin
    Avastu Maruti: you
    Pila Mulligan: so I am atman and brahmin?
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: same thing
    Pila Mulligan: is karma personal?
    Avastu Maruti: so you enjoy the show!
    Avastu Maruti: perfectly arising as THIS each moment
    Avastu Maruti: whatever THIS might be...
    Avastu Maruti: nothing is personal
    Avastu Maruti: life is living itself
    Pila Mulligan: so karma is atman
    Avastu Maruti: karma and atman are concepts
    Pila Mulligan: ultimatey this is the free will debate
    Avastu Maruti: both dissolve in the mystery of this moment
    Pila Mulligan: sorry to have missed the first hour :)
    Avastu Maruti: love to you, my friend - we were the worse off without you
    Pila Mulligan: and I love the Hindu concepts, brah
    Pila Mulligan: but the buddhists have outsmarted everyone
    Avastu Maruti: yes, even themselves!
    Pila Mulligan: at some point, however smart you are, you have to exercise judgment
    Pila Mulligan: inescapable
    Avastu Maruti: judgment flows naturally
    Avastu Maruti: according to the circumstances
    Pila Mulligan: and judgment is the fulcrum of free will and personality
    Avastu Maruti: apparent free will and personality
    Pila Mulligan: judge for yourself brah
    Avastu Maruti: you accuse me of being a person - I claim not guilty
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: you are sentenced to life
    Avastu Maruti: ah! Yes... life is sentenced to life
    Avastu Maruti: can you be separate of Life?
    Pila Mulligan: sat chit ananda is really a cool analysis
    Pila Mulligan: but at some point you have to exercise judgment
    Avastu Maruti: it is your true nature, my friend
    Avastu Maruti: Being, aware of it's limitlessness
    Pila Mulligan: whatever ethic you choose
    Avastu Maruti: is it an ethic?
    Pila Mulligan: ethic is a concept that underlies judgment
    Avastu Maruti: and judgement is not a concept?
    Pila Mulligan: if you wish :)
    padrecitomanu Cristole: hi speak spanish
    Pila Mulligan: concepts are seomthing special ?
    Avastu Maruti: hola mi amigo
    padrecitomanu Cristole: hablas español entonces
    Avastu Maruti: no
    padrecitomanu Cristole: como es este juego
    padrecitomanu Cristole: plop :(
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    padrecitomanu Cristole: okas bye bye
    Avastu Maruti: bye
    Pila Mulligan: adios
    Pila Mulligan: Avastu, I really appreciate all the limitations of debating these points, but I havea particular peeve
    Pila Mulligan: esepcailly with SL gurus
    Pila Mulligan: blissing out is groovy
    Pila Mulligan: lets get very happy and high
    Pila Mulligan: but then what?
    Avastu Maruti: ah - blissing out is only another passing experience, is it not?
    Avastu Maruti: what remains to observe any experience?
    Pila Mulligan: it is the destination of the teachings you are relating
    Pila Mulligan: bliss is the emptiness of form
    Avastu Maruti: there is no destination, my friend - you already ARE that
    Pila Mulligan: ah yes, and if only I can realize it :)
    Pila Mulligan: but I have realized it
    Pila Mulligan: and it is blissful
    Avastu Maruti: it is the idea that "I must realize it" that obscures "realization"
    Pila Mulligan: but then what?
    Pila Mulligan: okay, so I have not yet realized it
    Pila Mulligan: but when I do, then what?
    Avastu Maruti: there is no future realization - you are that already
    Pila Mulligan: ok, then I am that already
    Avastu Maruti: only there is a concept overlaid
    Pila Mulligan: but then what?
    Avastu Maruti: that concept is the only veil
    Pila Mulligan: okay so I am overlaid concepts
    Pila Mulligan: don;t you see the point?
    Avastu Maruti: no - "I AM" - IS the concept
    Pila Mulligan: ok you are
    Avastu Maruti: no, not "ME"
    Pila Mulligan: ok whatever
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha!
    Pila Mulligan: I agree with you
    Pila Mulligan: then what?
    Avastu Maruti: there is no then
    Avastu Maruti: then is now
    Pila Mulligan: nice aoviudance
    Pila Mulligan: now what?
    Avastu Maruti: there is no aovludance
    Pila Mulligan: ok now what?
    Avastu Maruti: now what? You ARE
    Avastu Maruti: that's it
    Avastu Maruti: you are
    Pila Mulligan: yes I am
    Avastu Maruti: pure being
    Pila Mulligan: now what?
    Avastu Maruti: without concept
    Pila Mulligan: blissful
    Pila Mulligan: empty form
    Pila Mulligan: now what?
    Avastu Maruti: blissful is a passing experience
    Avastu Maruti: you are the pure experienc-ing
    Pila Mulligan: you are describing a path to a destination
    Avastu Maruti: no - you already ARE that
    Avastu Maruti: blissful comes and goes - you remain
    Pila Mulligan: but I am saying after the destination arrives, you need to deal with the same old shit, just happier
    Avastu Maruti: no
    Avastu Maruti: now is it
    Pila Mulligan: just an opinion
    Avastu Maruti: the same old shit is already happening
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and it needs to be dealt with
    Avastu Maruti: happiness is your true nature already
    Avastu Maruti: misery comes and goes against the sky of happiness
    Pila Mulligan: especially when you can appreciate all these concpets
    Avastu Maruti: no matter what you want, what you're seeking, you don't have to look outside yourself
    Avastu Maruti: you ARE that already
    Avastu Maruti: you are the source
    Pila Mulligan: there is a tendancy among the searchers to overlook their judgments
    Pila Mulligan: and that means the underlying idea of ethics gets lost as well
    Pila Mulligan: and that leads to the nihilism that seems so prevalent in SL spriticual discussions
    Avastu Maruti: what you are is even beyond judgments and ethics
    Avastu Maruti: all appears in you - happening perfectly
    Pila Mulligan: lets supose I got that already
    Avastu Maruti: you do
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: I do
    Pila Mulligan: I got that already
    Avastu Maruti: yes, I know
    Pila Mulligan: but the mundane world is still waiting there
    Avastu Maruti: the mundane world is your very own face
    Pila Mulligan: waiting for the rent, waiting for the bills to be paid
    Pila Mulligan: I say there is a hint of avoidance here
    Avastu Maruti: as you wish, my friend
    Avastu Maruti: I'll gladly answer any question
    Pila Mulligan: my peeve is that promoting bliss is wonderful, but not at the expense of ethics
    Avastu Maruti: peeving is not present now
    Pila Mulligan: or integorty, a term that nicely embraces them both (bliss and ethics)
    Pila Mulligan: peeving is a rememebred concept
    Avastu Maruti: who is the recipient of your ethics?
    Pila Mulligan: me
    Pila Mulligan: you
    Pila Mulligan: and anyone else touched by them
    Avastu Maruti: me and you are conceptual distinctions which have no separate existence
    Pila Mulligan: I got that
    Avastu Maruti: have a look
    Pila Mulligan: I did
    Avastu Maruti: so who is the recipient?
    Pila Mulligan: me you and anyone else touched by them
    Avastu Maruti: you already said that me and you are not separate
    Pila Mulligan: all those conceptual distinctions which have no separate existence
    Avastu Maruti: so you are the recipient of your own ethics
    Pila Mulligan: yes indeed
    Avastu Maruti: and your own compassion
    Pila Mulligan: my karma, too
    Avastu Maruti: and your own bliss
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Avastu Maruti: there is no one outside of you to receive any of this
    Pila Mulligan: I ammthat also
    Pila Mulligan: since we are doing atman
    Avastu Maruti: so bliss, ethics and karma all have their play - yet they happen to no one
    Avastu Maruti: by no one
    Avastu Maruti: consciousness is all
    Pila Mulligan: I've got to agree with you, conceptually
    Avastu Maruti: is there any other way to agree?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: by voting, praying or donating
    Avastu Maruti: who is the recipient of these?
    Pila Mulligan: undetermined at this point
    Avastu Maruti: cannot be outside of your very own Self
    Pila Mulligan: wouldyou like your $L10?
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Pila Mulligan: back?
    Avastu Maruti: only if you wish
    Pila Mulligan: that is an example of the mundane
    Pila Mulligan: the market place
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, Imkeep getting richer
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha!
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes the feet get dirty, evenif the mind and heart are not
    Avastu Maruti: playing with concepts leave us only in a puddle of concepts
    Avastu Maruti: what is beyond?
    Pila Mulligan: bliss
    Avastu Maruti: what remains as the concepts come and go?
    Pila Mulligan: emptiness of form
    Avastu Maruti: what remains as the perceptions and sensations come and go?
    Avastu Maruti: emptiness IS form
    Pila Mulligan: the atman (or its facsimiile)
    Avastu Maruti: they are not-two
    Avastu Maruti: atman is a concept
    Pila Mulligan: okay, so answer yourself, please then
    Avastu Maruti: what IS, right this very moment, that doesn't require a concept to know?
    Avastu Maruti: isn't it the fact of your own BEING?
    Pila Mulligan: what IS, right this very moment, that doesn't require a concept to know?
    Pila Mulligan: ok the fact of being is
    Pila Mulligan: then what?
    Avastu Maruti: nothing!
    Pila Mulligan: rent?
    Avastu Maruti: all is contained in that
    Avastu Maruti: ALL
    Pila Mulligan: can I pay my bills with it?
    Avastu Maruti: rent, bills, stubbed toes, hunger, blade of grass
    Avastu Maruti: no
    Avastu Maruti: it has no monetary value
    Pila Mulligan: is this place getting government subsidies?
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Pila Mulligan: well, there is no argument on the value of the expression of ideas
    Pila Mulligan: but I do dispute the aftereffects of realizing the nature of being
    Pila Mulligan: it does not end
    Pila Mulligan: things go on
    Avastu Maruti: see the habit of conceptualization that creates the illusion of the world?
    Avastu Maruti: even the spiritual search is nothing but a conceptual creation
    Pila Mulligan: did that
    Avastu Maruti: there is nothing to be added
    Avastu Maruti: it is a loss
    Avastu Maruti: a loss of individual self
    Pila Mulligan: if you are hindu
    Avastu Maruti: and the world is known to be your own True Self
    Pila Mulligan: I really value the concpet of atman
    Pila Mulligan: it has menaing beyond ordinary thought
    Pila Mulligan: but I don;t buy it
    Pila Mulligan: exclusively
    Avastu Maruti: good
    Avastu Maruti: you shouldn't buy anything
    Avastu Maruti: ever
    Pila Mulligan: because it vitiates ethics
    Pila Mulligan: I buy groceries
    Avastu Maruti: the world you perceive to live in is due to bought into concepts
    Pila Mulligan: I returned them
    Pila Mulligan: defective merchandise
    Pila Mulligan: believe me, please, this is not an unfrinedly dispute
    Avastu Maruti: of course not
    Pila Mulligan: but I am going to continue to advocate ethics
    Avastu Maruti: go for it, my friend - you're free to advocate anything you like
    Pila Mulligan: so it seems
    Avastu Maruti: that very freedom is a taste of the consciousness which is itself total freedom
    Pila Mulligan: amen
    Pila Mulligan: almosts suggests free will :)
    Avastu Maruti: free will of consciousness
    Avastu Maruti: free to identify as "YOU"
    Pila Mulligan: and to be nice :)
    Avastu Maruti: yes, you're nice
    Pila Mulligan: so are you
    Avastu Maruti: thank you, my friend
    Pila Mulligan: do you want your $L100 back?
    Avastu Maruti: ha! only if you wish
    Pila Mulligan: oh my, this dude is generous
    Avastu Maruti: ok my friends - goodbye for now - see you all again in 6 months or so
    Threedee Shepherd: goodnight Avastu
    Pila Mulligan: bye Avastu Maruti
    Pila Mulligan: happy sailing
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Av
    stevenaia Michinaga: good seeing you agon
    stevenaia Michinaga: again
    Avastu Maruti: you can remove your tongue from the roof of your mouth, corvi..... :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: g
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: gnight, Avastu.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: much appreciated.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Threedee Shepherd: and, I offically take and close the log



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