2009.03.14 07:00 - defining differences

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.


    Geo Netizen: Hi Lia
    Lia Rikugun: hello geo
    Geo Netizen: Hi Mickorod
    Mickorod Renard: hiya
    Lia Rikugun: hello mickorod
    Mickorod Renard: never been to an early sitting before
    Lia Rikugun: what is early?
    Lia Rikugun: :P 3pm here
    Geo Netizen nods
    Mickorod Renard: he he ..early afternoon for me
    Mickorod Renard: usually at work
    Lia Rikugun: geo have you been here before ? (i am sorry I was not in PaB for a long time)
    Lia Rikugun: long time = 2 weeks :(
    Geo Netizen: A few times .... yes :)
    Mickorod Renard: I am a guardian for mondays at 1 am
    Lia Rikugun: ok wonderful so you dont need a notecard
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Geo Netizen: I do sub for GoC's on occassion
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema
    Geo Netizen: I Pema
    Lia Rikugun: hello pema
    Geo Netizen: *Hi
    Pema Pera: hey Lia, wie geht's dir (und wo?)?
    Pema Pera: hi Mick and Geo!
    Mickorod Renard: sorry I have missed phenem last 2 weeks Pema
    Lia Rikugun: gut danke (Paris
    Pema Pera: np Mick!
    Pema Pera: I always enjoy visiting Paris
    Mickorod Renard: read the log earlier for yesterday
    Lia Rikugun: (I am sorry to of missing so much :()
    Pema Pera: not to worry, Lia, there will be lots more :-)
    Pema Pera: Yes, Mick?


     feeling the freedom while riding a (motor)bike compared to a car

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,it looks like a good idea to re evaluate our position to date
    Mickorod Renard: for me anyway,,cos I am getting lost
    Pema Pera: ah, yes, in the phenomenology group
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mickorod Renard: I had a nice experience yesterday
    Lia Rikugun: yes?
    Mickorod Renard: after thinking about previous p as b
    Mickorod Renard: previous as of when I attended
    Mickorod Renard: I was driving to work
    Mickorod Renard: and the previous day I went to work on motorbike
    Mickorod Renard: so,,2 diference
    Mickorod Renard: and in the car I realised the diference between the 2
    Mickorod Renard: I wanted to cut the roof of,,so that I would be free to look around
    Mickorod Renard: roof off
    Geo Netizen: Hi Alpha
    Mickorod Renard: a similar feeling to seeing as being
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I love the feeing when I am on motorbike,,the feeling of fredom
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Geo Netizen: But you are much more venerable too :)
    Lia Rikugun: (but not too fast :)
    Pema Pera: I know the feeling, Mick, I used to ride a bike in Holland where I grew up, and only after I moved to the US I got a driver's licence for a car. It felt very odd at first, driving a car, all that superfluous stuff around me, who ordered that???
    Geo Netizen: Hi Neela
    Pema Pera: hi there Neela!
    Lia Rikugun: hi neela

    dropping defenses, remove the top of the head

    Mickorod Renard: well,,that passed my mind too..similar to dropping your defences.or hang ups
    Neela Blaisdale: Morning ( or whatever) everyone!
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Neela
    Pema Pera: and in a car it felt very strange taking a turn, and not having your body do it, no leaning into a curve . . . .
    Pema Pera: it felt as if I were watching a movie
    Pema Pera: (Neela, we're comparing riding a motorbike to driving a car)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,its definately diferent
    Mickorod Renard: It reminded me of a statement storm made,,about his top of head being removed
    Lia Rikugun: what was this?
    Pema Pera: unfortunately, that can happen with motorbikes, when you go to fast, as Lia said . . . . :-)
    Pema Pera: *too
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Geo Netizen: A car provides a barrier to the outside … rain …. wind …. sun ….
    Pema Pera: yes, very much
    Pema Pera: a nice model for ego fort
    Mickorod Renard: can you remember what storm was refering to Pema?
    Pema Pera: like you, to feel of suddenly being more open
    Pema Pera: dropping defenses
    Mickorod Renard: it was after we had tried an experiment

    letting Being see, lifting the top of the head and get a "panoramic vision"

    Pema Pera: habits
    Pema Pera: YSBS probably
    Pema Pera: the BS part :)
    Mickorod Renard: that was it
    Pema Pera: You Seeing first, then Being Seeing -- letting Being see instead of you trying to do the seeing
    Pema Pera: "in the world but not of the world"
    Mickorod Renard: yes..and we experienced the loss of the crouding in
    Geo Netizen nods
    Neela Blaisdale: loss of crowding in but if one carries out the car metaphor maybe sometimes also a loss of protection in some cases
    Mickorod Renard: well i see a similarity,,maybe it is our want to control that restricts our freedom
    Geo Netizen: Previous reference to quote by Storm: PaB log: You Seeing and Being Seeing At the end of such an exercise I used to feel as though the top of my head had lifted off! Now from Dakini's use of the term "panoramic vision", and from my own experiences of the last 100 days or so, I am thinking that perhaps these experience are actually same thing, except that with PaB we have a safer, ...
    Mickorod Renard: cool
    Pema Pera: yes, the safety is important, and definitely, cars are safer than motorbikes, for everyday use on crowded roads . . . .
    Pema Pera: so if we can combine the safety of a car, and the more radical wildness of a bike . . . .
    Pema Pera: perhaps PaB can offer that?
    Mickorod Renard: yes please
    Pema Pera: :-)

    what can we loose?

    Pema Pera: you've got nothing to lose but what you have :)
    Pema Pera: (and that's quite a lot, actually!)
    Geo Netizen: And most of what we have are appearances
    Neela Blaisdale thinks that the safety of PaB is what allows us to explore

    the danger of exposing our feelings

    Mickorod Renard: I think sometimes we can feel that being open..and exposing our feelings is also like a danger
    Pema Pera: ((but also very little . . . ))
    Geo Netizen nods to Mickorod
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: when forced or premature is sure is
    Pema Pera: *it sure is
    Mickorod Renard: if you want to experience then its at some expense
    Mickorod Renard: or exchange
    Pema Pera: the greatest price to pay is "you" yourself, to hand that over
    Pema Pera: "Thy will" in Christianity
    Pema Pera: best bargain!
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes..I have come to terms with that notion,,through chrisianity
    Pema Pera: greatest return :)
    Pema Pera: "in the world not of the world" is equally powerful as "wu-wei", not doing
    Pema Pera: and very similar
    Mickorod Renard: although I am not , or do not think as a typical christian
    Neela Blaisdale: as many of us are not....
    Geo Netizen: Ahhh ... what is a typical Christian :)
    Mickorod Renard: good question..
    Neela Blaisdale: :) that too....
    Neela Blaisdale: but many of us do not define ourselves as Christian...
    Neela Blaisdale: at all...
    Geo Netizen: I find more similarities with Buddhism than with some Christian sects
    Neela Blaisdale: yet share the same sentiments
    Geo Netizen: and same insights

    being labeled and labelling

    Mickorod Renard: Yes,, I struggle with both comformity, and with being labeled
    Lia Rikugun: labels are always bad :)
    Geo Netizen nods
    Mickorod Renard: but I am spiritual in thinking
    Geo Netizen: always too simplistic
    Lia Rikugun: i try to loose tghese ideas of labels
    Lia Rikugun: not easy...
    Geo Netizen nods
    Lia Rikugun: you labels almost everything without realizing
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Geo Netizen: We all use labels to try to manage complexity
    Pema Pera: we can still use labels, as long as we do it only for what they are useful for: this is salt, that is sugar -- don't want to put sugar in my soup :)
    Geo Netizen nods
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Pema Pera: (did anyone ever try?)
    Pema Pera: (it taste faaar worse than you might think!)
    Neela Blaisdale: I suppose the trick is in when we use the labels versus when they control us..
    Pema Pera nods

    individual thoughts and differences in our labels and beliefs

    Mickorod Renard: but our thoughts are quite individual,,and perhaps secret..so it's not so simple to label them
    Pema Pera: btw, exactly one week ago, we had an inspiring discussion about dialogues between Christian and Buddhist monks, and about how small the differences are when we start to really compare: [2009/03/07 7:30] Geo Netizen: Little is truly in opposition to core faith issues [2009/03/07 7:31] Geo Netizen: That was perhaps the most exciting part of the experience [2009/03/07 7:51] Geo Netizen: What has been fun is to set a goal of arriving at a true and concise disagreement …. [2009/03/07 7:51] Geo Netizen: and experiencing how difficult it really is when we are listening carefully
    Geo Netizen: Labels can have such an overload of meanings that can greatly differ between people
    Pema Pera: it might be an interesting exploration for us to do to, in how far we can really find any real differences between our views
    Mickorod Renard: yikes
    Pema Pera: ?
    Geo Netizen: Yes ... I think this would be a perfect group to attempt that kind of exploration
    Mickorod Renard: I dont know whether I can expose myself that much
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Geo Netizen: And I actually see it happening at times
    Pema Pera: yes
    Neela Blaisdale: always remains a personal choice, M ick..
    Mickorod Renard: i think we would need more than an hour
    Pema Pera: hahaha, sure
    Geo Netizen: apparent disagreements dissolve during the discussion
    Pema Pera: exactly!!!
    Geo Netizen: but I have seen the opposite too
    Pema Pera: I find that I understand my own position better, after a good discussion along those lines
    Neela Blaisdale hopes that then this can move out into the greater world...
    Geo Netizen: I think of the long discussion about one visitor
    Mickorod Renard: nice idea
    Pema Pera: yes, one reason to publish our discussions on the web, Neela
    Lia Rikugun: hello caledonia
    Neela Blaisdale nods
    Geo Netizen: It was very emotional at times :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Cal!
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Cal
    Geo Netizen: Hi Caledonia
    Caledonia Heron: hi :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Cal
    Pema Pera: Yes, Geo, but our usual discussions are of the "shrinking" type, re. differences
    Pema Pera: no shirking the differences, they shrink :-)
    Geo Netizen: Yes ... the example I mention was informative to me because of it being the exception

    starting a new dialogue to define differences

    Pema Pera: Geo, how about you and me trying to gently but carefully trying to define our differences in a dialogue, some day?
    Geo Netizen: and my being able to compare the dynamics to what usually happens
    Pema Pera: yes
    Mickorod Renard: many labels,,as in individual/group beliefs carry myth too
    Geo Netizen nods to Pema
    Pema Pera: shall we pick a day and time, Geo?
    Geo Netizen scrounges around for his calendar
    Mickorod Renard: I think the myth often contributes to the barriers
    Mickorod Renard: not the cctual
    Mickorod Renard: actual
    Pema Pera: yes
    Geo Netizen: The word 'myth' is a little slippery
    Mickorod Renard: true,,I am a bit liberal with choice of words
    Geo Netizen: A myth can be a story that explains something fundamental and is used as such in some cultures
    Mickorod Renard: what I meant were conceptions that others have
    Geo Netizen nods
    Mickorod Renard: I always try and be open minded,,but in the end we are what we eat,,in terms of information fed and consumed
    Geo Netizen: I'd say it provides a limitation but is not definitive
    Pema Pera wondering whether Geo has scrounged up his calendar :)
    Pema Pera persistently pestering . . . . :-)
    Caledonia Heron: it's under your robes Geo :)
    Geo Netizen: Yes he has :)
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Mickorod Renard: would be nice to sit in on such a get together,,hope it fits my timetable

    Buddhist-Benedict monk exchange

    Geo Netizen: Pema …. returning to the idea of a discussion … what work well for the Buddhist-Benedict monk exchange was that they pick a specific topic, such as ‘Karma’ or ‘Original Sin’
    Neela Blaisdale: me too...
    Pema Pera: good idea, Geo
    Pema Pera: in fact I was thinking about that
    Geo Netizen: They one group would begin by tying to explain their term to the other
    Pema Pera: [2009/03/07 7:33] Geo Netizen: Karma, for example, has many more common traits to the concept of the result of sin then there are differences
    Pema Pera: yes
    Geo Netizen: they other group would begin asking questions
    Geo Netizen: and it would take off from there
    Geo Netizen: usually with much agreement
    Pema Pera: fine, I'm game, Geo!
    Caledonia Heron pictures buddhist debate team
    Pema Pera: shall we start with Sin and Karma?
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Neela Blaisdale: team!!!
    Geo Netizen: I suppose that is as good a please to start
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Pema Pera: Cal: http://www.showchina.org/en/Gallery/...2388589379.jpg
    Geo Netizen wonders if he need to recruit a cheerleading team
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,whats that Pema?
    Pema Pera: Buddhist debate, Mick
    Pema Pera: Cal was asking for it :)
    Geo Netizen chuckles a the picture
    Mickorod Renard: great
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    Mickorod Renard: ahh yes,,seen that before..wow,,will it get that heated
    Caledonia Heron: looks like a poetry slam
    Neela Blaisdale: Gimme a P.....gimme an A gimme a B...
    Pema Pera: the guy with the yellow head ornament does resemble Geo, don't you think?
    Neela Blaisdale: hehe
    Caledonia Heron: nice hat :)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Pema Pera: so day and time, Geo?
    Geo Netizen: Not heated .... just very enthusiastic :)
    Pema Pera: !!
    Neela Blaisdale: except our group would have women:)
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, kind of a boys club :)
    Pema Pera: good to have a bit of heat coming out of a discussion if you live in the Himalayas
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Geo Netizen: Pema are you thinking of using a regular meeting or ...
    Pema Pera: regular meeting, yes
    Mickorod Renard: spent some time in kathmandu
    Pema Pera: we have 28 a week
    Caledonia Heron: use mine
    Pema Pera: we can spare a few for special attractions
    Pema Pera: like SIN
    Neela Blaisdale hopes it's on a weekend...
    Pema Pera: like KARMA
    Pema Pera: (sex and violence!)
    Pema Pera: we can take this slot, shall we?
    Pema Pera: If Lia agrees
    Mickorod Renard: good idea
    Lia Rikugun: of course i agree :)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe Ara can get to it too
    Neela Blaisdale is happy it will be at a time she can attend..
    Pema Pera: so you talk about sin and I about karma?
    Pema Pera: (even though I'm not a Buddhist, I can stand in for one :-)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe I will pick up some hints
    Mickorod Renard: need some sin
    Pema Pera: Shall we start one week from now, Geo, 2009/3/21, 7 am SLT?
    Geo Netizen: Sounds like we are talking
    Geo Netizen: ...
    Pema Pera: is that a yes (ever so persistenly asking :)
    Neela Blaisdale: can you do this in 2 weeks..will be on a plane
    Geo Netizen: yes ... that would work for me
    Neela Blaisdale: or is that too long?
    Pema Pera: there will be a transcript, Neela
    Neela Blaisdale: OK
    Pema Pera: there will always be days that someone can come
    Pema Pera: sorry though
    Pema Pera: okay, I'll announce it
    Neela Blaisdale: will it be in the logs as usual?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: like all other sessions
    Geo Netizen: Two week work not work for me ... sorry Neela :(
    Neela Blaisdale: np..
    Geo Netizen: *would
    Neela Blaisdale will send her cheers through the air...
    Mickorod Renard: will we have a good mix?
    Pema Pera: yeah!
    Pema Pera: our air fairy :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Mickorod Renard: I guess You could post on notecard a statement of thoughts Neela?
    Mickorod Renard: is that pos?
    Neela Blaisdale: will think on it...
    Pema Pera: oh, Geo and Neela and all, I presume that this will be a many-session ongoing dialogue
    Geo Netizen: I have another meeting at 8 ....
    Pema Pera: no way that we can get this all on the table in one hour!
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Pema Pera: Like the theme meetings we have with Maxine, and Stim, and Fefonz
    Pema Pera: I hope that's okay, Geo?
    Geo Netizen: I will keep the whole morning open next seek :)
    Pema Pera: so we can take our time
    Geo Netizen: *week
    Pema Pera: no, I think it is better not to go for much more than an hour
    Pema Pera: better to spend a concentrated hour
    Geo Netizen: and maybe do some finger exercises hoping I can type better
    Pema Pera: and then continue the next week, don't you think?
    Caledonia Heron: yes
    Pema Pera: oh, we can take our time :-)
    Mickorod Renard: sounds great
    Mickorod Renard: we will all be excommunicated
    Pema Pera: or excapitalized
    Geo Netizen was thinking that same thought
    Mickorod Renard: that suits me


    Geo Netizen: I've gatta run
    Pema Pera: see you, Geo!
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Geo
    Geo Netizen: Hope everyone has a great weekend
    Mickorod Renard: c u goe
    Lia Rikugun: bye geo
    Mickorod Renard: geo
    Neela Blaisdale: you too
    Caledonia Heron: bye :)
    Pema Pera: u 2 Geo!
    Lia Rikugun: thank you you too
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye everyone- will be away... have a good week:)
    Lia Rikugun: byebye neela you too
    Caledonia Heron: bye neighbor :)
    Pema Pera: bye Neela!
    Mickorod Renard: bye Neela,,u have a good week to
    Lia Rikugun: I need to go too
    Lia Rikugun: so you take care all
    Mickorod Renard: bye Lia,,
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    Pema Pera: bye Lia!
    Mickorod Renard: I need to shoot off too
    Pema Pera: bye Mick!
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Pema Pera: how punctual we all are
    Pema Pera: on the clock
    Pema Pera: save thou and me, Cal
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Caledonia Heron: kind of out of the discussion loop but interesting
    Pema Pera: Last week Geo and I had a very interesting dialogue, spontaneously, about his reports of friends of his, Christian monks of his talking with Buddhist monks
    Caledonia Heron: ah, ok
    Pema Pera: not "of his"
    Pema Pera: (strike second occurrance)
    Caledonia Heron: his is a monk?
    Pema Pera: no, but closely sympathetic
    Pema Pera: and in touch with many of them
    Caledonia Heron: wow - very interesting
    Caledonia Heron: I will try to attend your dialog ... maybe I will learn something
    Pema Pera: we will all learn a lot, I bet!
    Caledonia Heron: are there any woman monks?
    Caledonia Heron: women*
    Pema Pera: yes, nuns
    Caledonia Heron: monkettes?
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Caledonia Heron: ah, !! of course
    Pema Pera: monkinas
    Caledonia Heron: duh
    Pema Pera: given that's only the two of us, shall we move to an even more leisurely place?
    Caledonia Heron: sure
    Pema Pera: where a squirrel roams around?
    Caledonia Heron: maybe a squizzle or two
    Pema Pera: that too yes :)

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