2009.03.22 19:00 - Inauthentic Art

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

     Threedee Shepherd and I sat for a bit and chatted about patience, happiness, now and the future, until aurel Miles arrived to refocus our attention.


    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Three
    stevenaia Michinaga: have a seat or whatever kitties do
    Threedee Shepherd: hi steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: how are you?
    Threedee Shepherd: calm, thanks
    Threedee Shepherd: and you
    stevenaia Michinaga: quite the same while watching the impatience that surrounds me and wondering why it is so
    Threedee Shepherd: in RL?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Threedee Shepherd: times are scary
    stevenaia Michinaga: an interesting imbalance as I preceive it
    stevenaia Michinaga: it never points toward a solution
    Threedee Shepherd: of course not, but everyone *knows* things can get better, (it is not sanity-prodicing to think otherwise), so they are impatient for it to happen.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, waiting seems to be the difficult thing
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, consider even my relatively secure position. I will need to reassess the long-term financial aspects of my retirement if 6-8% return investments do not appear within 12-18 months
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes a short term view , perhaps as deluded as that is, releaves that problem
    Threedee Shepherd: That coupled with the barrage of24/7 news (or made up commentary that passes for news)
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems happyness is to be apprciated in the moment
    Threedee Shepherd: we need to believe that happy days are almost here again
    Threedee Shepherd: Hard for a person with a family and no job to maintain happiness in the moment.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: it could also be closer to us all them we think..
    Threedee Shepherd: so, scary
    stevenaia Michinaga: april 15th is never a good time of year either
    Threedee Shepherd: hehehe
    stevenaia Michinaga: we a cloud slowly moves toward my happiness
    stevenaia Michinaga: as a
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps avoidance shold be the direction we should perse
    stevenaia Michinaga: persue
    Threedee Shepherd: hard to avoid reality arising in front of you
    stevenaia Michinaga: ding.. 9 seconds later.. life is good
    Threedee Shepherd: however 18 seconds later.....
    stevenaia Michinaga: laughs
    Threedee Shepherd: not much of a crowd right now
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps we weren;t invited to the party
    Threedee Shepherd: My daughter had her sewer pipe to the street back-up and the analysis (tentatively) is a $5-7000 repair of a broken clay pipe--yesterday
    Threedee Shepherd: they were not quite planning for that expense
    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like very old pipe
    Threedee Shepherd: not pareticularly, but a type no longer used in the expansive soils of this part of Colorado
    stevenaia Michinaga: a friend of mine seems to ahve a a house downhill from two others and the water is accumulating in her crawlspace... $10,000 to berm and redirect, I said get a second opinion
    stevenaia Michinaga: from an engineer, not a contractor
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems spring is full of suprises
    Threedee Shepherd: yup ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: we jsut got my wife's are back with a replaced engine that self distructed, drove it to NYC and when we came out of the market it was towed
    stevenaia Michinaga: thought it was stolen
    stevenaia Michinaga: for some reason it being towed was supposed to be better
    Threedee Shepherd: cheaper if it had been stolen, perhaps
    stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, to late, already paid for the engine

    aurel Miles joins us

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello aurel
    Threedee Shepherd: Ade and I are starting to experiment with OpenSim
    stevenaia Michinaga: experiment in what?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Aurel, have you been here before?
    aurel Miles: hi
    aurel Miles: yes
    aurel Miles: this afternoon
    aurel Miles: thank you
    aurel Miles: i am just telling a friend
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s a small group this evening
    Threedee Shepherd: My company, 3DE, has put up a private 4-Sim OpenSim grid
    aurel Miles: didn't mean to interrupt
    stevenaia Michinaga: no please join us, all are welcom
    Threedee Shepherd: no interruption, we are idly chatting ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: I ahve enver been to an Open Sim
    stevenaia Michinaga: have never
    Threedee Shepherd: there are a few that you can log into as a visitor, I think
    stevenaia Michinaga: after seening some of Ade's work I;m sure it's great fun
    stevenaia Michinaga: well since yo ahve to know they exist first, I can see where an invitation would be helpful
    Threedee Shepherd: Aurel, your SL Profile of Groups suggests you may be an artistg?
    aurel Miles: critic
    aurel Miles: arthistorian
    aurel Miles: i publish as a poet
    aurel Miles: the lines blur - you know
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, let me be extremely forward and ask about the basis of how one criticizes art?
    aurel Miles: how much time do you have?
    Threedee Shepherd: all night
    Threedee Shepherd: :D
    aurel Miles: i am interested in theory
    aurel Miles: very
    aurel Miles: but i am also very interested in creating access
    aurel Miles: into work that might otherwise seem opaque to a casual viewer
    aurel Miles: i think post-modernist thought can be married to the idea of art as expression
    Threedee Shepherd: I have studied the neuroscience and cognitive aspects of vision in my career, so I really am interested
    aurel Miles: i think every authentic work of art
    aurel Miles: communicates
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, no one gets off easy here
    Threedee Shepherd: what is inauthentic art?
    aurel Miles: i don't think that communication is always intentional
    aurel Miles: well
    aurel Miles: if you search on the name
    aurel Miles: Lizbeth Silvercloud
    aurel Miles: i would call her art
    aurel Miles: inauthentic
    aurel Miles: it offers nothing to the viewer
    aurel Miles: but the desire to be seen
    Threedee Shepherd: did she "make" it
    aurel Miles: yes
    Threedee Shepherd: one sec
    stevenaia Michinaga: this a SL artist?
    aurel Miles: i think art is the communication of sincerity
    aurel Miles: yes
    aurel Miles: first name that came to mind
    aurel Miles: contrast her "work"
    aurel Miles: with AM Radio
    aurel Miles: his work
    aurel Miles: inauthentic art is art made to be seen
    Threedee Shepherd: ,
    Threedee Shepherd: no hits in google on "lizbeth silvercloud"
    aurel Miles: the "artist" makes something decorative
    aurel Miles: no no
    aurel Miles: sl search
    aurel Miles: people
    aurel Miles: not google
    aurel Miles: inworld
    aurel Miles: i am limiting this to inworld
    Threedee Shepherd: Ok, not now then or I will need to tp away to see it
    aurel Miles: no no
    aurel Miles: she has one in her picks
    aurel Miles: a self-portrait
    aurel Miles: overlaid with color
    aurel Miles: not art
    aurel Miles: just vanity
    aurel Miles: but she's not alone
    aurel Miles: there are lots of people making "art" like that
    aurel Miles: like chit-chat
    aurel Miles: small talk
    aurel Miles: how-are-you-i-am-fine art
    stevenaia Michinaga: I see it now
    Threedee Shepherd: sounds like the age-old question/issue of: "what is Art"?
    aurel Miles: yes
    aurel Miles: well
    aurel Miles: you asked
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    aurel Miles: and you will never have enough time
    aurel Miles: to exhaust the topic
    aurel Miles: or even my answer
    aurel Miles: architects are so definitive
    aurel Miles: don't you think?
    Threedee Shepherd: Will we only be able to discuss it "by example", piece by piece
    stevenaia Michinaga: it's our nature, well some of us
    aurel Miles: the reason one writes art criticism is because to generalze in this area is not really possible
    stevenaia Michinaga: in the end, isn;t art the same
    aurel Miles: no
    aurel Miles: art encourages people to see
    aurel Miles: and to think
    aurel Miles: and to feel
    stevenaia Michinaga: it's a process with an ending, unless I misunderstood
    aurel Miles: not always
    aurel Miles: some art is all process
    stevenaia Michinaga: same can be true with architecture
    Threedee Shepherd: what of Op-Art and Pop-Art
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps not all
    aurel Miles: john cage - he has a piece
    aurel Miles: that will play out over the next 500 years
    aurel Miles: it's process
    aurel Miles: not product
    aurel Miles: are we shifting to a discussion of specific schools of expression?
    Threedee Shepherd: process in the moment is a relative product
    aurel Miles: warhol's soup cans are sometimes referred to as the byzantine icons of their age
    aurel Miles: and there is a lot to be said for that
    aurel Miles: it is the role of the cirtic to present possible ways of engaging with a piece
    Threedee Shepherd: no, I am trying to explore the boundaries of art, pictures, depiction and Lizbeth S.
    aurel Miles: and to make a case for why the piece is worthwhile
    aurel Miles: i can't explore those boundaries with you
    aurel Miles: that would require a lifetime
    aurel Miles: i only used LS as an example
    aurel Miles: because her "work"
    aurel Miles: was recently brought to my attention
    Threedee Shepherd: Ok, let me explore what might be a helpful metaphor. I understand what "close reading" of a poem or a novel is. It can be thought of as a specific, learned way to engage with a piece beyond the surface aspects.
    stevenaia Michinaga: watching John Cage vid on youtube
    aurel Miles: go on
    Threedee Shepherd: Can we think of art criticism in that way?
    aurel Miles: yes
    aurel Miles: why not?
    aurel Miles: but "learned"
    Threedee Shepherd: Indeed, why not, but it is harder.
    aurel Miles: i think that word can be perjorative
    aurel Miles: before i went back to university
    Threedee Shepherd: One needs to be ghuided by example to become a close reader
    aurel Miles: i was a preschool teacher
    aurel Miles: and i learned that very little is actually beyond anyone's grasp
    aurel Miles: it all depends on how you guide, explain, speak
    aurel Miles: sometimes it seems much harder than it is
    aurel Miles: and of course - the post modernists are also right
    Threedee Shepherd: indeed, and at their level, because I do accept the idea of an ever growing spiral of cognitive and intellectual development.
    aurel Miles: everything has a personal interpretation
    Threedee Shepherd: right that there is no meaning?
    aurel Miles: no
    aurel Miles: that meaning resides in the viewer
    aurel Miles: there is meaning
    aurel Miles: and good art communicates something
    Threedee Shepherd: the viewer resides in a culture
    aurel Miles: manages to create an intersection
    aurel Miles: some kind of common humanity
    aurel Miles: but
    aurel Miles: i have published poems
    aurel Miles: that people found very moving
    aurel Miles: for reasons that i did not intend
    aurel Miles: and i think - well - i had to learn
    aurel Miles: that's ok
    aurel Miles: after a point
    aurel Miles: the work, if it is coherant, has its own life
    aurel Miles: and i think the same is true of visual art
    Threedee Shepherd: Ok, is Jackson Pollack's art different from a semi-random correction of words
    aurel Miles: and becomes even more true
    aurel Miles: if that's possible
    aurel Miles: over time as we layer
    aurel Miles: social and cultural meanin g
    aurel Miles: on top of the original impulse
    aurel Miles: pollack's work - nowadays, i would argue, depends very much on the patina of social meaning it has accumulated over the years
    Threedee Shepherd chuckles
    aurel Miles: and that's relevant
    stevenaia Michinaga: does the original impulse matter at that point, if it is ever known
    aurel Miles: that's ok
    aurel Miles: i suppose their comes a point
    aurel Miles: where the original impulse becomes indiscernable
    aurel Miles: in any empirical way
    aurel Miles: anyhow
    aurel Miles: then we rely on consensus
    aurel Miles: realistically, we do not understand the original impulse for the chalk horse
    aurel Miles: yet it is resonant
    aurel Miles: in its context
    aurel Miles: and the design is pleasing
    aurel Miles: so it remains art
    aurel Miles: by a combination of consensus and the fact that we value feats of craft
    Threedee Shepherd: I know this sounds confrontational, and it is not meant to be: Given the meaning resides in the interaction of the object and the "viewer", do you do "art criticism" or " aurel's Art Criticism"?
    aurel Miles: it is confrontational
    aurel Miles: you know that
    aurel Miles: and you can keep it for yourself
    Threedee Shepherd: I am a retired scientist. I am post-modern, and then embodied. Science is a way of knowing. I will not be offended if it is said I did "threedee's science"
    aurel Miles: i never suggested you would
    aurel Miles: i simply declined to engage with your way of framing an issue
    aurel Miles: politely, i hope
    Threedee Shepherd: what is a better way of framing it, of asking how anyone gets from the particular to the general, if you will?
    aurel Miles: you seem very interested in creating hierarchies of meaning
    Threedee Shepherd ponders that reasonable observation
    Threedee Shepherd: to me, meaning is an ordering, of the chaos that surrounds us. Perhaps I am looking for different types of meaning and pattern making, rather than hierarchical types. I hope I am, or in least would like to be soing so.
    Threedee Shepherd: *doing
    aurel Miles: sounds hierarchical to me
    aurel Miles: and i do feel pressed
    aurel Miles: but i decline to engage with that pressure
    aurel Miles: it's not mine
    aurel Miles: it's your way of looking at the world
    Threedee Shepherd: I apologize. I should have waited for time and more meeting to jump in so bluntly.
    aurel Miles: not at all
    aurel Miles: it's been enriching
    Threedee Shepherd: please, why does considering the world in post-modern patterns sopund hierarchical?
    Threedee Shepherd: *sound
    aurel Miles: Threedee - please read what you said
    aurel Miles: instead of trying another way to bring me into your framework
    Threedee Shepherd: which part, I did modify as I went on
    aurel Miles: let's move on, shall we?
    Threedee Shepherd: Or to put it another way--what do you perceive as my framework--or we can move on.
    stevenaia Michinaga: the hour is up and I must go, but feel free to continue... smiles
    aurel Miles: i don't perceive your framework
    Threedee Shepherd: night steve
    aurel Miles: only your persistent desire to position my thinking within it
    aurel Miles: and once again
    aurel Miles: thank you
    aurel Miles: but i decline
    stevenaia Michinaga: night three, looking forward to seeing you again aurel
    aurel Miles: thank you Steve
    aurel Miles: i should go too
    Threedee Shepherd: goodnight, aurel
    aurel Miles: goodnight
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