2009.03.26 13:00 - Dialogue Fefonz-Pema #4: Being, and all that

The guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

As the previous three weeks in this series of dialogues between Fefonz and Pema, the first part of the session was simply everyone turning up and saying "Hi!". (I have taken the liberty, just for these sessions, to edit out the greetings.) Like the last two weeks, but not the first week, Pema introduces a short workshop into this dialogue.

Storm Nordwind: Will Fefonz be joining us again?
Pema Pera: I saw his typist walking to his room with tea and cookies in his hand
Pema Pera: so it won't be long :-)
Storm Nordwind: I hope he's brought enough for everyone!
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fael Illyar smiles at remembering the tea and cookies habit.
Wester Kiranov: :D
Pema Pera: I decided to get an apple instead :)
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, the tradition still continues :)
Storm Nordwind: Cookies! We want cookies Fefonz!
Fefonz Quan: there are a lot of them on your PC Storm ;-)
Fael Illyar gives Storm a thumbs up.
Pema Pera: I am telling the powers that be to create a virtual IAS cookie room in SL . . .

Now the main protagonists are present, we start straight away.

Pema Pera: So let us continue our theme session today
Pema Pera: as we have been doing for a few weeks now, concerning Being, and various approaches to it
Pema Pera: the one thing that has been a common topic is "Being Seeing"
Pema Pera: or "let Being See"
Pema Pera: And I suggest we focus on that today.
Pema Pera: Or to put it differently:
Pema Pera: I could also say "let's focus on Being" but then the question is "how?"
Pema Pera: given that Being goes beyond words and concepts and all dichotomies

There is a hiatus as Fael wants to make an announcement.

Fael Illyar: but before we start, has anyone noticed the small improvement I made to the wiki meeting log page?
Pema Pera: not yet, Fael
Pema Pera: what are they?
Pema Pera: the blue clickables to the right?
Pema Pera: or have they been there a while already? I noticed them not too long ago
Fael Illyar: no, that's the front page, click the topone :)
Pema Pera: which "top one" , "chat logs"?
Fael Illyar: Ah
Storm Nordwind would also like to mention that Stim's workshop will not run today. Stim is on retreat this week. Therefore it's possible, unless people have RL commitments, that we could extend this session today - if Pema and Fefonz want to.
Fael Illyar: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/03 this one
Pema Pera: if so, we should probably do so in the Kira Cafe, Storm, to catch people who may not have seen the notices
Pema Pera: ah great, Fael!
Fefonz Quan: yes, nice, the delayers list ;-)
Pema Pera: but the one caveat is that people who are slow in posting are probably even more slow in looking at that page :-)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Fael,,Hi everyone
Fefonz Quan: Hey Mick
Pema Pera: but their brothers and sisters can then remind them :>)
Fael Illyar: it's still missing that it'd attach a name to each person :)
Fefonz Quan: naming names...
Fael Illyar: umm, each meeting
Fael Illyar: but it's now widely visible for anyone browsing them if there are any missing.
Pema Pera: yes, thank you Fael!
Fefonz Quan: does the fact that it is in red hints that we judge them less than the blue ones?
Fael Illyar: Fefonz, no, it's just red so it looks different :)
Fefonz Quan: cool. me like red too.

We return to the dialogue. Pema recaps.

Pema Pera: So to return to the theme of today:
Pema Pera: [13:06] Pema Pera: I could also say "let's focus on Being" but then the question is "how?"
[13:06] Pema Pera: given that Being goes beyond words and concepts and all dichotomies
Pema Pera: And "letting Being see" seems like a concrete something you can try to explore
Pema Pera: and in my own experience, and that of several others, it seems to be quite effective
Pema Pera: at least to the point of helping to open up further for something like "Being" to begin to make more sense.
Pema Pera: Fefonz, do you want to add something here, before we ask everyone to comment?
Fefonz Quan: SO in a way, it is like Play as being, letting beign see, isn't it?
Fefonz Quan: (and not only visuals we talk about here)
Pema Pera: footnote: I would like to make a difference between "Being" and "being"
Pema Pera: "being", like a human being, is what each of us is here in this world
Fefonz Quan meant Being
Pema Pera: and to distinguish that from Being we have to use a different notation
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: well, PaB and BS are a bit different
Fefonz Quan: ?
Pema Pera: or at least they start from a different angel
Pema Pera: playing feels more active, and letting feels more passive
Pema Pera: but however you start, pretty soon you can invite the other pool too, in a natural way
Pema Pera: the two are certainly complementary
Fefonz Quan: yes, but if i would already know what Being is i could play, otherwise letting it unveil itself is the only way i know
Pema Pera: but you could also turn that around
Fefonz Quan: in which axis?
Pema Pera: if I could really let Being see, I could also play Being -- in both cases we have to start somewhere
Pema Pera: we're groping in the dark and trying things out
Fefonz Quan: for me, letting points to doing less, droping mostly
Fefonz Quan: so it is easier to start, dropping the things i already know
Pema Pera: yes, it may be an easier way in, for some of us at least, some of the time
Pema Pera: and the dropping, btw, is a central part of both PaB and BS.

Fefonz mentions a Zen book by Douglas E. Harding.

Fefonz Quan: Somehow all that Being remind me of the 'Man with no head' book/metaphor
Pema Pera: yes, very much so.
Pema Pera: Would anybody else like to comment on their experiences with Being Seeing, or "letting Being See"?
Pema Pera: http://www.amazon.com/Having-No-Head.../dp/1878019198 re: On Having No Head
Mickorod Renard: I am struggling with it all at the moment Pema
Mickorod Renard: but for me it seems that when in full motion,,ie work and all,,I have no time to stop,,when I do,,its like I can allow being seeing and the reverse
Pema Pera: we can start with easy times
Mickorod Renard: as in BEing
Pema Pera: when we are not so preoccupied
Pema Pera: and the more we let Being See, the more we can learn to apply that to busy times as well

Pema suggests a group exploration, similar to those in previous weeks.

Pema Pera: if nobody has any other suggestion or question, I propose that we simply spend a couple minutes letting Being See, and then compare notes
Pema Pera: we can start now, and I'll give a sign that two minues have passed
Pema Pera: The idea is to:
Pema Pera: just relax
Pema Pera: and let Being See
Pema Pera: without worrying too much about what that might mean
Fael Illyar: Would one way of describing letting Being see be to let things be what they are, not trying to decide what they are?
Storm Nordwind finds Being Seeing is so all encompassing that it obviates normal life interaction meanings and almost precludes normal interaction
Pema Pera: something may become more clear just by doing it
Wester Kiranov: I would think the difference between Being and Playing is not that big - you are allowing Being to show itself
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, there are many aspects and associations that can come up, with doing BS, or letting BS -- including what you mentioned
Pema Pera: yes, Wester
Pema Pera: just a different starting point (invalshoek - how do you say that in English?)
Pema Pera: angle of approach?
Wester Kiranov: Oops - meant Seeing instead of Being
Pema Pera: so I suggest that we start without any idea in mind of what it could be
Pema Pera: and to just leave it to Being to show us what Being Seeing can be like
Pema Pera: it may well be different each time you explore it . . .
Pema Pera: so let's get started!

Two minutes elapse.

Pema Pera: wb, everyone!
Pema Pera: would anybody like to share their findings?

Mick is the first brave soul to describe what he found.

Mickorod Renard: well,I am not sure if i was Being seing or seeing Being,,but,,I felt relaxed, even to some extent felt I wasnt closed in,,like the feeling I am outside the home yet without the cold air
Mickorod Renard: and.
Mickorod Renard: I also identified things like senses that one gets from being outside,,like the feeling of air,,but again not cold
Mickorod Renard: and almost sounds
Mickorod Renard: even if thats silly
Pema Pera: nothing is silly here, Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: ;-)
Mickorod Renard: although unaware i was focusing on anything..i realise now that I was away from the surrounding noise of the environment of my home

Then Qt.

Qt Core: i was almost back to the park i went today to eat and relax during launch break (for the first time since last summer)
Pema Pera: :)
Qt Core: i think that the bird chirping here awokened the feeling
Pema Pera: we have some very nice birds here, yes!
Pema Pera: anyone else?
Fefonz Quan: that time it seemed like i take it too visualy, and it interrupted
Fefonz Quan: in the visual sense, i could see my hands as part of other appearances, for example, but when i tried to move them ad they did (thankfully :)), it ruined the non-separation, getting back to me (what i control) and the rest of the world
Pema Pera: yes, we explore and it takes time to become familiar and relaxed with it -- Storm said something similar, I think, earlier.

Pema described his own findings.

Pema Pera: As for me, when I tried to let Being See, I immediately felt a kind of presence, a sense of integrated presence, neither personal nor impersonal, which was at the same time strong and gentle, with a calming atmosphere. These things are so difficult to put in words, but ... I'l try :). There are resonances with the subject-object reversal exploration, in which you let an object see you, but it is far more comprehensive. It feels as if my normal mental chatter dies down, and my normal pet priorities and worries and concerns melt away -- still there, but only in a functional pragmatic way, not a pestering way. And I can see how this kind of experience can be interpreted as connecting with God or a Deity or the Tau or whatever it may be called in different traditions.

Pema suggests a playful extension. Is it possible?

Pema Pera: (btw, I suggest that while we discuss our experiences here of doing Being Seeing, why not at the same time try to let Being See us discussing Being Seeing!)
Pema Pera: does that feel doable, or too confusing perhaps?
Pema Pera: I feel that my way of talking/typing here changes when I do that consciously
Qt Core: as fefonz said just moving to get to the keyboard or the mouse breke the connection/mindstate
Pema Pera: at first, yes, but with more practice it doesn't have to
Fael Illyar: typing consciously ... I wonder how much of my typing is conscious ...
Qt Core: maybe being able to touchtype would help too
Pema Pera: :)

How does Being see? Does that even make sense? How does it sense?

Fefonz Quan: that's why i think it help sometimes to observe other senses than seeing, because it need deeper appearances than just the view
Pema Pera: ah, with Being Seeing I don't mean physical seeing -- Being has no eyes :-)
Storm Nordwind: How do you reconcile that Pema with Being seeing everything simultaneously. Are your actions not a speck that gets lost in the grandeur of everything else?
Pema Pera: I mean it much more general, as in "I see" or being aware in general
Fefonz Quan: sure, but staying on the visual appearances, no matter how you call it, might lead to that fallacy
Scathach Rhiadra: touch and movement are a very integrated part of 'awareness'
Pema Pera: I don't think so, Storm :-) And I don't think you think so :>)
Fefonz Quan nods to Scathach
arabella Ella: yes and smell and sound
Pema Pera: yes, thanks for pointing that out, Fefonz
Pema Pera: You see
Pema Pera: (note the way of using "you see"!)
Pema Pera: Being has no sense organs
Pema Pera: so smelling or touching would be equally wrong
Fefonz Quan: but appearances are sense-oriented
Pema Pera: we have to use words to point beyond words
Pema Pera: appearances can be memories or fantasies too
arabella Ella: what i meant was ... it is touching but without using the sense of touch, smelling but not using our sense of smell, etc
Pema Pera: purely in the mind
Pema Pera: yes, Arabella, very much so!
Fefonz Quan: that's the mind sense..
arabella Ella: a total intuitive feeling of relaxation and floating
Pema Pera: yes, Fef, in that sense, for us that's what we have to work with, at least at first
Mickorod Renard: this is like presence yes?
Pema Pera: yes, Qt, I think that can go beyond any senses or thoughts/feelings
Qt Core: when i did yoga i had an enhanced sensation about my place in the world, a truly "asensorial" sensation
Pema Pera: when a mystic senses the presence of God, say, you can try to project in back down into the sense world, but I think that is only a projection

Back to Pema's playful suggestion. He really meant it!

Pema Pera wondering whether anyone has trouble letting Being See right now, while talking about Being Seeing
Fefonz Quan finds all those mystic examples distancing and frustrating
Pema Pera: then mute them, Fef :-)
Pema Pera: if they are not helpful
arabella Ella likes ... enjoys ...the mystical and spiritual examples

The side-effects people experience...

Mickorod Renard: ok,,so i think I get the idea,,or rather identify the feelin,,and its like an emersion.into something
Pema Pera: and start with what is meaningful for you
Pema Pera: yes, Mick, but that kind of feeling is a side effect
Pema Pera: similar to what Fael also said, earlier
Pema Pera: it does not define Being Seeing
Pema Pera: but when we try Being Seeing, such experiences are likely to come up
Pema Pera: and are great signs that we are getting closer
arabella Ella: would it be right to say Pema that with practice you could get the feeling of comfort just like being back in the womb?
Pema Pera: [13:26] Fael Illyar: Would one way of describing letting Being see be to let things be what they are, not trying to decide what they are?
Pema Pera: yet another nice side effect, Arabella :)
Pema Pera: anything we can possibly say will be a side effect, a kind of shadow
Pema Pera: but when we share enough shadows, we may get more of a sense for the real thing
Pema Pera: and we may be ready to leave our cave :-)
Fefonz Quan: being in the womb of a relaxed mother might give that effect, not sure about other times
arabella Ella: what i meant was a feeling of floating, security and comfort
Scathach Rhiadra: last week at hte pheno workshop Pema you mentioned 'sheer awareness', could you say more about that?
Qt Core: i feel it as being far away (even in space) but present more than back in the womb
Mickorod Renard: yea,,i think the emersion feeling is the same as when u lower yourself into a swim pool,,and in this case,,it stems from letting go of ones own thoughts and letting slip into this other thing
Fefonz Quan: yes i know ara :) just couldn't help myself
arabella Ella smiles
Storm Nordwind is just going to drop a notifier object in the Cafe. Will be back and will pick up anything missing from the database

I wanted to inform people who were turning up for this week's Ways of Knowing workshop that Stim was still on retreat. I missed a few lines, here in the Pavilion, which I indeed did pickup from the database much later.

Fefonz Quan: 'Sheer' is a song in my language:-)
Pema Pera: Scathach, the more we drop ourselves, and letting Being See is a quick way in, in that direction, the more we can let go of anything extraneous, letting our awareness be more "sheer awareness" of "sheer appearances" rather than having it be all clogged up with self-centered worries
Mickorod Renard: I think I am half way there in normal life too,,as i can watch others gettin frought and offer objectivity
Fefonz Quan: Yes mick, objectivity is much easier with others
arabella Ella feels a sense of Being looking down on all of us and yet each one of us is Being at the same tikme
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: nods too
Mickorod Renard: we have all climbed into the same swim pool
arabella Ella: yes
arabella Ella: Collective being and individual beings merge

Pema still wanted to see if his idea was possible. But there are things about seeing that still need to be discussed.

Pema Pera: is it difficult to let Being See right now? Does anyone want to comment on that?
Pema Pera: or seemingly impossible perhaps?
Pema Pera: while we are talking?
Fefonz Quan is in unlightened mood, does not like beings looking down at him (not to mention the last chapter of battlestar galctica 2 days ago)
Wol Euler: ah, but beings are not Being...
Fefonz Quan: yeah, i know
Pema Pera: not beings indeed, Fef, Being Seeing is totally different from letting beings look at you
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: there is no "at" in Being seeing
Pema Pera: Beings sees you from the inside as well
Pema Pera: body and mind and soul and heart
Pema Pera: and thus sees everything and everyone
Storm Nordwind sees a beetle moving between blades of grass in the garden outside, the pixels on the screen at Play as Being, the people typing at home driving their avatars, the sun on a hot desert and sand blowing in the wind, all bits of me mvoing through me
Pema Pera: "sees" in a non-visual way
Scathach Rhiadra doesn't think I have a 'soul':)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: how about blues?
Scathach Rhiadra: or a 'me'
Wester Kiranov: It's easy to lose sight of the small as being is so big, but the small things are just as important as the big ones

We're way past the hour, and Fefonz introduces the final 'note' of levity! Then we are off.

Fefonz Quan: or a 'fa'...
Wester Kiranov: lol
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fael Illyar is having the moments ever more frequently when 'me' doesn't even make sense.
Pema Pera: yes, Storm, Being in/as each littlest thing
Wester Kiranov: now i'm going to have that song in my head the rest of the day...
Fael Illyar: (well, still rather infrequent though)
Pema Pera: which one, Wester?
Pema Pera: "I've got the blues" or?
Wester Kiranov: is it called do re mi? from sound of music
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
Wol Euler was just humming it too
arabella Ella: me too
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Fefonz Quan: yey... ;;)
Fefonz Quan: should we conclude on that nive note?
Fefonz Quan: it is past the hour
Pema Pera: let's all nive together -- conniving?
Wol Euler: contriving
Fefonz Quan: if only fef would got a penny for every typo he makes....
Fefonz Quan: nice*
Wester Kiranov: .. he would make even more typos
Wol Euler laughs
Wol Euler: yeah, too easy.
Fefonz Quan: if it is possible ;-)
genesis Zhangsun: well see you all later
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Wester Kiranov: language is very redundant
Fael Illyar: See you later Gen :)
Pema Pera: bye everybody, I'll have to go to a RL meeting too
Fael Illyar: See ou lter Pema :)
Wol Euler: ha, that was good.
Pema Pera: thank you all for coming here!
arabella Ella: bye Pema
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Pema and Fefonz
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_