2009.03.26 13:00 - Dialogue Fefonz-Pema #4: Being, and all that

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    The guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

    As the previous three weeks in this series of dialogues between Fefonz and Pema, the first part of the session was simply everyone turning up and saying "Hi!". (I have taken the liberty, just for these sessions, to edit out the greetings.) Like the last two weeks, but not the first week, Pema introduces a short workshop into this dialogue.

    Storm Nordwind: Will Fefonz be joining us again?
    Pema Pera: I saw his typist walking to his room with tea and cookies in his hand
    Pema Pera: so it won't be long :-)
    Storm Nordwind: I hope he's brought enough for everyone!
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fael Illyar smiles at remembering the tea and cookies habit.
    Wester Kiranov: :D
    Pema Pera: I decided to get an apple instead :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, the tradition still continues :)
    Storm Nordwind: Cookies! We want cookies Fefonz!
    Fefonz Quan: there are a lot of them on your PC Storm ;-)
    Fael Illyar gives Storm a thumbs up.
    Pema Pera: I am telling the powers that be to create a virtual IAS cookie room in SL . . .

    Now the main protagonists are present, we start straight away.

    Pema Pera: So let us continue our theme session today
    Pema Pera: as we have been doing for a few weeks now, concerning Being, and various approaches to it
    Pema Pera: the one thing that has been a common topic is "Being Seeing"
    Pema Pera: or "let Being See"
    Pema Pera: And I suggest we focus on that today.
    Pema Pera: Or to put it differently:
    Pema Pera: I could also say "let's focus on Being" but then the question is "how?"
    Pema Pera: given that Being goes beyond words and concepts and all dichotomies

    There is a hiatus as Fael wants to make an announcement.

    Fael Illyar: but before we start, has anyone noticed the small improvement I made to the wiki meeting log page?
    Pema Pera: not yet, Fael
    Pema Pera: what are they?
    Pema Pera: the blue clickables to the right?
    Pema Pera: or have they been there a while already? I noticed them not too long ago
    Fael Illyar: no, that's the front page, click the topone :)
    Pema Pera: which "top one" , "chat logs"?
    Fael Illyar: Ah
    Storm Nordwind would also like to mention that Stim's workshop will not run today. Stim is on retreat this week. Therefore it's possible, unless people have RL commitments, that we could extend this session today - if Pema and Fefonz want to.
    Fael Illyar: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/03 this one
    Pema Pera: if so, we should probably do so in the Kira Cafe, Storm, to catch people who may not have seen the notices
    Pema Pera: ah great, Fael!
    Fefonz Quan: yes, nice, the delayers list ;-)
    Pema Pera: but the one caveat is that people who are slow in posting are probably even more slow in looking at that page :-)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Fael,,Hi everyone
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Mick
    Pema Pera: but their brothers and sisters can then remind them :>)
    Fael Illyar: it's still missing that it'd attach a name to each person :)
    Fefonz Quan: naming names...
    Fael Illyar: umm, each meeting
    Fael Illyar: but it's now widely visible for anyone browsing them if there are any missing.
    Pema Pera: yes, thank you Fael!
    Fefonz Quan: does the fact that it is in red hints that we judge them less than the blue ones?
    Fael Illyar: Fefonz, no, it's just red so it looks different :)
    Fefonz Quan: cool. me like red too.

    We return to the dialogue. Pema recaps.

    Pema Pera: So to return to the theme of today:
    Pema Pera: [13:06] Pema Pera: I could also say "let's focus on Being" but then the question is "how?"
    [13:06] Pema Pera: given that Being goes beyond words and concepts and all dichotomies
    Pema Pera: And "letting Being see" seems like a concrete something you can try to explore
    Pema Pera: and in my own experience, and that of several others, it seems to be quite effective
    Pema Pera: at least to the point of helping to open up further for something like "Being" to begin to make more sense.
    Pema Pera: Fefonz, do you want to add something here, before we ask everyone to comment?
    Fefonz Quan: SO in a way, it is like Play as being, letting beign see, isn't it?
    Fefonz Quan: (and not only visuals we talk about here)
    Pema Pera: footnote: I would like to make a difference between "Being" and "being"
    Pema Pera: "being", like a human being, is what each of us is here in this world
    Fefonz Quan meant Being
    Pema Pera: and to distinguish that from Being we have to use a different notation
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: well, PaB and BS are a bit different
    Fefonz Quan: ?
    Pema Pera: or at least they start from a different angel
    Pema Pera: playing feels more active, and letting feels more passive
    Pema Pera: but however you start, pretty soon you can invite the other pool too, in a natural way
    Pema Pera: the two are certainly complementary
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but if i would already know what Being is i could play, otherwise letting it unveil itself is the only way i know
    Pema Pera: but you could also turn that around
    Fefonz Quan: in which axis?
    Pema Pera: if I could really let Being see, I could also play Being -- in both cases we have to start somewhere
    Pema Pera: we're groping in the dark and trying things out
    Fefonz Quan: for me, letting points to doing less, droping mostly
    Fefonz Quan: so it is easier to start, dropping the things i already know
    Pema Pera: yes, it may be an easier way in, for some of us at least, some of the time
    Pema Pera: and the dropping, btw, is a central part of both PaB and BS.

    Fefonz mentions a Zen book by Douglas E. Harding.

    Fefonz Quan: Somehow all that Being remind me of the 'Man with no head' book/metaphor
    Pema Pera: yes, very much so.
    Pema Pera: Would anybody else like to comment on their experiences with Being Seeing, or "letting Being See"?
    Pema Pera: http://www.amazon.com/Having-No-Head.../dp/1878019198 re: On Having No Head
    Mickorod Renard: I am struggling with it all at the moment Pema
    Mickorod Renard: but for me it seems that when in full motion,,ie work and all,,I have no time to stop,,when I do,,its like I can allow being seeing and the reverse
    Pema Pera: we can start with easy times
    Mickorod Renard: as in BEing
    Pema Pera: when we are not so preoccupied
    Pema Pera: and the more we let Being See, the more we can learn to apply that to busy times as well

    Pema suggests a group exploration, similar to those in previous weeks.

    Pema Pera: if nobody has any other suggestion or question, I propose that we simply spend a couple minutes letting Being See, and then compare notes
    Pema Pera: we can start now, and I'll give a sign that two minues have passed
    Pema Pera: The idea is to:
    Pema Pera: just relax
    Pema Pera: and let Being See
    Pema Pera: without worrying too much about what that might mean
    Fael Illyar: Would one way of describing letting Being see be to let things be what they are, not trying to decide what they are?
    Storm Nordwind finds Being Seeing is so all encompassing that it obviates normal life interaction meanings and almost precludes normal interaction
    Pema Pera: something may become more clear just by doing it
    Wester Kiranov: I would think the difference between Being and Playing is not that big - you are allowing Being to show itself
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, there are many aspects and associations that can come up, with doing BS, or letting BS -- including what you mentioned
    Pema Pera: yes, Wester
    Pema Pera: just a different starting point (invalshoek - how do you say that in English?)
    Pema Pera: angle of approach?
    Wester Kiranov: Oops - meant Seeing instead of Being
    Pema Pera: so I suggest that we start without any idea in mind of what it could be
    Pema Pera: and to just leave it to Being to show us what Being Seeing can be like
    Pema Pera: it may well be different each time you explore it . . .
    Pema Pera: so let's get started!

    Two minutes elapse.

    Pema Pera: wb, everyone!
    Pema Pera: would anybody like to share their findings?

    Mick is the first brave soul to describe what he found.

    Mickorod Renard: well,I am not sure if i was Being seing or seeing Being,,but,,I felt relaxed, even to some extent felt I wasnt closed in,,like the feeling I am outside the home yet without the cold air
    Mickorod Renard: and.
    Mickorod Renard: I also identified things like senses that one gets from being outside,,like the feeling of air,,but again not cold
    Mickorod Renard: and almost sounds
    Mickorod Renard: even if thats silly
    Pema Pera: nothing is silly here, Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: although unaware i was focusing on anything..i realise now that I was away from the surrounding noise of the environment of my home

    Then Qt.

    Qt Core: i was almost back to the park i went today to eat and relax during launch break (for the first time since last summer)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Qt Core: i think that the bird chirping here awokened the feeling
    Pema Pera: we have some very nice birds here, yes!
    Pema Pera: anyone else?
    Fefonz Quan: that time it seemed like i take it too visualy, and it interrupted
    Fefonz Quan: in the visual sense, i could see my hands as part of other appearances, for example, but when i tried to move them ad they did (thankfully :)), it ruined the non-separation, getting back to me (what i control) and the rest of the world
    Pema Pera: yes, we explore and it takes time to become familiar and relaxed with it -- Storm said something similar, I think, earlier.

    Pema described his own findings.

    Pema Pera: As for me, when I tried to let Being See, I immediately felt a kind of presence, a sense of integrated presence, neither personal nor impersonal, which was at the same time strong and gentle, with a calming atmosphere. These things are so difficult to put in words, but ... I'l try :). There are resonances with the subject-object reversal exploration, in which you let an object see you, but it is far more comprehensive. It feels as if my normal mental chatter dies down, and my normal pet priorities and worries and concerns melt away -- still there, but only in a functional pragmatic way, not a pestering way. And I can see how this kind of experience can be interpreted as connecting with God or a Deity or the Tau or whatever it may be called in different traditions.

    Pema suggests a playful extension. Is it possible?

    Pema Pera: (btw, I suggest that while we discuss our experiences here of doing Being Seeing, why not at the same time try to let Being See us discussing Being Seeing!)
    Pema Pera: does that feel doable, or too confusing perhaps?
    Pema Pera: I feel that my way of talking/typing here changes when I do that consciously
    Qt Core: as fefonz said just moving to get to the keyboard or the mouse breke the connection/mindstate
    Pema Pera: at first, yes, but with more practice it doesn't have to
    Fael Illyar: typing consciously ... I wonder how much of my typing is conscious ...
    Qt Core: maybe being able to touchtype would help too
    Pema Pera: :)

    How does Being see? Does that even make sense? How does it sense?

    Fefonz Quan: that's why i think it help sometimes to observe other senses than seeing, because it need deeper appearances than just the view
    Pema Pera: ah, with Being Seeing I don't mean physical seeing -- Being has no eyes :-)
    Storm Nordwind: How do you reconcile that Pema with Being seeing everything simultaneously. Are your actions not a speck that gets lost in the grandeur of everything else?
    Pema Pera: I mean it much more general, as in "I see" or being aware in general
    Fefonz Quan: sure, but staying on the visual appearances, no matter how you call it, might lead to that fallacy
    Scathach Rhiadra: touch and movement are a very integrated part of 'awareness'
    Pema Pera: I don't think so, Storm :-) And I don't think you think so :>)
    Fefonz Quan nods to Scathach
    arabella Ella: yes and smell and sound
    Pema Pera: yes, thanks for pointing that out, Fefonz
    Pema Pera: You see
    Pema Pera: (note the way of using "you see"!)
    Pema Pera: Being has no sense organs
    Pema Pera: so smelling or touching would be equally wrong
    Fefonz Quan: but appearances are sense-oriented
    Pema Pera: we have to use words to point beyond words
    Pema Pera: appearances can be memories or fantasies too
    arabella Ella: what i meant was ... it is touching but without using the sense of touch, smelling but not using our sense of smell, etc
    Pema Pera: purely in the mind
    Pema Pera: yes, Arabella, very much so!
    Fefonz Quan: that's the mind sense..
    arabella Ella: a total intuitive feeling of relaxation and floating
    Pema Pera: yes, Fef, in that sense, for us that's what we have to work with, at least at first
    Mickorod Renard: this is like presence yes?
    Pema Pera: yes, Qt, I think that can go beyond any senses or thoughts/feelings
    Qt Core: when i did yoga i had an enhanced sensation about my place in the world, a truly "asensorial" sensation
    Pema Pera: when a mystic senses the presence of God, say, you can try to project in back down into the sense world, but I think that is only a projection

    Back to Pema's playful suggestion. He really meant it!

    Pema Pera wondering whether anyone has trouble letting Being See right now, while talking about Being Seeing
    Fefonz Quan finds all those mystic examples distancing and frustrating
    Pema Pera: then mute them, Fef :-)
    Pema Pera: if they are not helpful
    arabella Ella likes ... enjoys ...the mystical and spiritual examples

    The side-effects people experience...

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,so i think I get the idea,,or rather identify the feelin,,and its like an emersion.into something
    Pema Pera: and start with what is meaningful for you
    Pema Pera: yes, Mick, but that kind of feeling is a side effect
    Pema Pera: similar to what Fael also said, earlier
    Pema Pera: it does not define Being Seeing
    Pema Pera: but when we try Being Seeing, such experiences are likely to come up
    Pema Pera: and are great signs that we are getting closer
    arabella Ella: would it be right to say Pema that with practice you could get the feeling of comfort just like being back in the womb?
    Pema Pera: [13:26] Fael Illyar: Would one way of describing letting Being see be to let things be what they are, not trying to decide what they are?
    Pema Pera: yet another nice side effect, Arabella :)
    Pema Pera: anything we can possibly say will be a side effect, a kind of shadow
    Pema Pera: but when we share enough shadows, we may get more of a sense for the real thing
    Pema Pera: and we may be ready to leave our cave :-)
    Fefonz Quan: being in the womb of a relaxed mother might give that effect, not sure about other times
    arabella Ella: what i meant was a feeling of floating, security and comfort
    Scathach Rhiadra: last week at hte pheno workshop Pema you mentioned 'sheer awareness', could you say more about that?
    Qt Core: i feel it as being far away (even in space) but present more than back in the womb
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,i think the emersion feeling is the same as when u lower yourself into a swim pool,,and in this case,,it stems from letting go of ones own thoughts and letting slip into this other thing
    Fefonz Quan: yes i know ara :) just couldn't help myself
    arabella Ella smiles
    Storm Nordwind is just going to drop a notifier object in the Cafe. Will be back and will pick up anything missing from the database

    I wanted to inform people who were turning up for this week's Ways of Knowing workshop that Stim was still on retreat. I missed a few lines, here in the Pavilion, which I indeed did pickup from the database much later.

    Fefonz Quan: 'Sheer' is a song in my language:-)
    Pema Pera: Scathach, the more we drop ourselves, and letting Being See is a quick way in, in that direction, the more we can let go of anything extraneous, letting our awareness be more "sheer awareness" of "sheer appearances" rather than having it be all clogged up with self-centered worries
    Mickorod Renard: I think I am half way there in normal life too,,as i can watch others gettin frought and offer objectivity
    Fefonz Quan: Yes mick, objectivity is much easier with others
    arabella Ella feels a sense of Being looking down on all of us and yet each one of us is Being at the same tikme
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: nods too
    Mickorod Renard: we have all climbed into the same swim pool
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: Collective being and individual beings merge

    Pema still wanted to see if his idea was possible. But there are things about seeing that still need to be discussed.

    Pema Pera: is it difficult to let Being See right now? Does anyone want to comment on that?
    Pema Pera: or seemingly impossible perhaps?
    Pema Pera: while we are talking?
    Fefonz Quan is in unlightened mood, does not like beings looking down at him (not to mention the last chapter of battlestar galctica 2 days ago)
    Wol Euler: ah, but beings are not Being...
    Fefonz Quan: yeah, i know
    Pema Pera: not beings indeed, Fef, Being Seeing is totally different from letting beings look at you
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: there is no "at" in Being seeing
    Pema Pera: Beings sees you from the inside as well
    Pema Pera: body and mind and soul and heart
    Pema Pera: and thus sees everything and everyone
    Storm Nordwind sees a beetle moving between blades of grass in the garden outside, the pixels on the screen at Play as Being, the people typing at home driving their avatars, the sun on a hot desert and sand blowing in the wind, all bits of me mvoing through me
    Pema Pera: "sees" in a non-visual way
    Scathach Rhiadra doesn't think I have a 'soul':)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: how about blues?
    Scathach Rhiadra: or a 'me'
    Wester Kiranov: It's easy to lose sight of the small as being is so big, but the small things are just as important as the big ones

    We're way past the hour, and Fefonz introduces the final 'note' of levity! Then we are off.

    Fefonz Quan: or a 'fa'...
    Wester Kiranov: lol
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fael Illyar is having the moments ever more frequently when 'me' doesn't even make sense.
    Pema Pera: yes, Storm, Being in/as each littlest thing
    Wester Kiranov: now i'm going to have that song in my head the rest of the day...
    Fael Illyar: (well, still rather infrequent though)
    Pema Pera: which one, Wester?
    Pema Pera: "I've got the blues" or?
    Wester Kiranov: is it called do re mi? from sound of music
    Fefonz Quan: yep :)
    Wol Euler was just humming it too
    arabella Ella: me too
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Fefonz Quan: yey... ;;)
    Fefonz Quan: should we conclude on that nive note?
    Fefonz Quan: it is past the hour
    Pema Pera: let's all nive together -- conniving?
    Wol Euler: contriving
    Fefonz Quan: if only fef would got a penny for every typo he makes....
    Fefonz Quan: nice*
    Wester Kiranov: .. he would make even more typos
    Wol Euler laughs
    Wol Euler: yeah, too easy.
    Fefonz Quan: if it is possible ;-)
    genesis Zhangsun: well see you all later
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Wester Kiranov: language is very redundant
    Fael Illyar: See you later Gen :)
    Pema Pera: bye everybody, I'll have to go to a RL meeting too
    Fael Illyar: See ou lter Pema :)
    Wol Euler: ha, that was good.
    Pema Pera: thank you all for coming here!
    arabella Ella: bye Pema
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you Pema and Fefonz
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_

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